# Supercharge?



## bickmade (Aug 16, 2002)

Is this possible?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...tem=2482004328&category=6755#ebayphotohosting


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

There are two threads on this already. The kit is 100lbs of ass in a 50lb sack. The retard that built it didn't think things through and tried to make it low buck... blew his engine on the first run. Search under "TheSnail" for his posts.


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## Hendrix (Jan 17, 2004)

yeah it's possible. and you too can put it on your engine and watch it come apart. save your money and run your engine without oil if you want cheaper but equal results. James is correct, check those threads.


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

well.. if you get in contact with JWT, get a wastegate and weld it onto the piping.. i suppose you could end up with a good supercharging setup.. but not with what that *** is sellign


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## Glyphon (May 17, 2004)

lol...i love the 2 different spins he puts on what happened...



here said:


> I hooked up a crappy APC boost gauge in Bar. and cranked it up. At Idle it sat at .5 bar 7psi ! ! I gave it just a little gas 2-3k and it pined the gauge at 1.5bar (22psi) ! ! ! I almost crapped my pants in horror ! I called my friend to tell him the news, and asked him to bring a different boost gauge to my house. He came over with an Autometer gauge in psi. Making a pond of moter oil below the ga16, we hooked up the secound gaudge. I told him and his friend to watch the gaudge as I flipped the SC, switch. It ran Idle fluctuating between 5-7psi, and then I gave it just a little gas (2500) and the boost gaude shot to 25psi !


and



ebay said:


> . Lets just say, that boost is not the limiting factor in this kit. It will boost higher then you will ever want to see. The specs for the supercharger are 5.8psi. So I figured I was going to run the S/C by itself with out the help of the HKS waste gate that regulates the boost at 4-5psi. Well when I cranked it up it ran .5 bar at Idle, which is equal to 7psi, I gave it gas to 2500-3000rpm and the gauge was pined at 1.5 bar (22psi) I called my friend to bring over another gauge that was in psi since I was in disbelief about the previous reading. I hooked up the auto meter gauge and cranked it up. At Idle boost fluctuated between 5-7psi, once again I gave it gas and the gauge shot to 25psi. The whine from the s/c was awesome just the sound of it gave my friends and me the jitters.


if i just watched my engine just blow up, i'd have the jitters too. :thumbdwn:


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

i'd like to know how he used a wastegate to control boost from a roots blower..........


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

well if that picture of duct tape covering the supercharger is an indication of history.. I'd say... its gotta be pretty ghetto!


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

hey, atleast he had an "original" idea..


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

no doubt... but don't call my setup ghetto when you can't even get yours working!!


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## Hendrix (Jan 17, 2004)

the idea was good, just the short cuts taken to get the end results didn't work well.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

no he just didn't think it out very thoroughly...


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## sentra97gxe (Mar 17, 2004)

From what I've seen, the idea of designing a supercharger for the ga16 aint a bad idea just this guy rushed through it and cut too many corners. I believe it's definately possible just have to think things out and rather than showing off how much boost its putting out you need to realize something is wrong and stop and try to figure it out. This guy thought that much boost was really cool but whats the point if you can't use it. He should have parked it and started looking over stuff to locate what was wrong intead of blowing the motor for the sake of showing off.

Mitch


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

I'm still wondering how he thought he could use a wastegate to control boost on a belt driven roots supercharger.............


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## sentra97gxe (Mar 17, 2004)

chimmike said:


> I'm still wondering how he thought he could use a wastegate to control boost on a belt driven roots supercharger.............


Well, thats something you'd have to direct to the moron himself. :cheers: 

Mitch


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

IMO, a supercharger setup like that would have work... but its like the old saying goes: "speed reliability cheap, pick two only." He tried to tell everyone it was going to be only 900 bucks. I would have used a centrifugal supercharger instead of trying to adapt a SC from another car onto this one.


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## sentra97gxe (Mar 17, 2004)

James said:


> IMO, a supercharger setup like that would have work... but its like the old saying goes: "speed reliability cheap, pick two only." He tried to tell everyone it was going to be only 900 bucks. I would have used a centrifugal supercharger instead of trying to adapt a SC from another car onto this one.


 :cheers: You hit the nail right on the head. Someday someone will get it right. But thinking about it, gotta give the guy a little credit for trying. He may have screwed up but it was a learning experience for all of us. I agree, his attempt could have been better but we have the info on his errors now and for anyone who attempts it in the future so maybe next time it will be a success.

Mitch


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

sentra97gxe said:


> :cheers: You hit the nail right on the head. Someday someone will get it right. But thinking about it, gotta give the guy a little credit for trying. He may have screwed up but it was a learning experience for all of us. I agree, his attempt could have been better but we have the info on his errors now and for anyone who attempts it in the future so maybe next time it will be a success.
> 
> Mitch


hell no... I ain't gonna give him crap, he's stubborn and he called my setup ghetto!


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> hey, atleast he had an "original" idea..


If not thinking things through, not doing good research, arguing with everyone that tried to give him tips is original then okay... I see it as being an ass...especially now that he is trying to pawn it off on some unsuspecting person through ebay.


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## Nuskool (Jan 5, 2004)

Would have been okay if it would have been someone else trying to sc it......Honestly I would like to see it work even if it is ghetto as hell....and for $81, I hope someone who knows a little more picks it up and finishes it right....


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

$81, i would personally try it out, if i had an ebay account, but not this summer, i need my freaking a/c. but like others said, a centrifugal one would be way better, and no blow-off valve.


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

myoung said:


> If not thinking things through, not doing good research, arguing with everyone that tried to give him tips is original then okay... I see it as being an ass...especially now that he is trying to pawn it off on some unsuspecting person through ebay.



it original in that he had the balls to try something new on the GA16...whether he failed or not, thats not the point. the point is that he put work into that kit...and money...and time...even though it may not look like it


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

is anyone gonna explain to me why the guy thought using a wastegate on a roots blower would control boost?


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## hector200sx (Apr 29, 2004)

chimmike said:


> is anyone gonna explain to me why the guy thought using a wastegate on a roots blower would control boost?


thats what i was wondering


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

maybe, just maybe, he didn't have all the resources to figure out what pulley works best. or he was aiming for that hissing sound, kind of a sales pitch.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

read his thread and you can clearly see his pride was blinding him. besides, you got to his website, he's suppose to be a mechanical engineer at Georgia Tech... Heaven help the man driving a car he designs....


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## Glyphon (May 17, 2004)

and if its not cars, then anything he designs. i wonder how he's doing there. its a pretty tough school and he doesn't seem to be too bright...at least not when it comes to cars.


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

Glyphon said:


> and if its not cars, then anything he designs. i wonder how he's doing there. its a pretty tough school and he doesn't seem to be too bright...at least not when it comes to cars.


I am honestly considering buying his setup and tweeking it a bit. The problem is, I don't know a lot about forced induction systems. I'm pretty new at this, but I'm willing to take advice. First, before I start trying to buy this thing, I wanted to ask what you guys would do to control the boost. I would be happy with just 5-6 psis of boost.

Another thought I had, was that this sc was a bit too big for his car. If it was pushing 22 psi, it was probably made for something like a mercedes.  Would putting the sc on a different pulley affect its output? (Or attempting to change the size of the pulleys)


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

^dude, stay away from the kit unless you have an extra motor, its not worth payin money to blow your motor.. the supercharger was off a 2.3L, if you dont know a shit load of info on forced induction dont buy it.. 


i have a question do we really need to have like 90 threads goin bout this shitty product..


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

not really... but people keep starting them and if I close another one someone else will post another thread... 

if you buy this kit... just buy a centrifugal supercharger at the same time and you can mount it to the same place he did... it seems viable. just get JWT to tune your ecu for you and don't cut corners.


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## sentra97gxe (Mar 17, 2004)

psulemon said:


> ^dude, stay away from the kit unless you have an extra motor, its not worth payin money to blow your motor.. the supercharger was off a 2.3L, if you dont know a shit load of info on forced induction dont buy it..
> 
> 
> i have a question do we really need to have like 90 threads goin bout this shitty product..


Steve, I wouldn't down the idea that fast. He said he'd be willing to take advice. If he could find a way to slow it down like a larger pulley or something it may work. If he does it and keeps a post on here and pretty much stays under nissanforums wing I think he could do it. Just can't jump right into it though like that other guy did. It'd take time and probably a good bit more money to get it right. However, if it's a car you need everyday it probably wouldn't be a good idea cuz something new like this could take time to fine tune to the point that its safe for daily driving. It's something new, we've gotta remember just because one person couldn't get it right don't mean it's impossible.

Mitch


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

James said:


> not really... but people keep starting them and if I close another one someone else will post another thread...
> 
> if you buy this kit... just buy a centrifugal supercharger at the same time and you can mount it to the same place he did... it seems viable. just get JWT to tune your ecu for you and don't cut corners.


Where can I get a good centrifugal s/c? 

Also, what is involved in tuning the ECU? Can I just mail them a 96 ECU and have them tune it or do I have to take in the whole car for a Dyno and stuff? Also, what else, that isn't included in this kit will I probably need, (so that I don't cut corners)?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

Well I think you can start with Vortech, Procharger or Jackson Racing, they make the kits for the Civic and I think the supercharger they use for the civic would be a good size. Also get larger injectors. I know he probably scrounged up some sr20 injectors and thought that was good enough but his computer is not tuned for it and sr20 injectors are not large enough to support 9 psi anyways.

Tuning a 96 ecu is simple... send it in tell them what you're doing and pay the man.


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

^sorry if i came off like it wasn't possible, it prolly is but its gonna take a lot of time and more money to get it right... he might be better off starting over, gettting a larger pulley, the right s/c, and a lot more research..


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

James said:


> Well I think you can start with Vortech, Procharger or Jackson Racing, they make the kits for the Civic and I think the supercharger they use for the civic would be a good size. Also get larger injectors. I know he probably scrounged up some sr20 injectors and thought that was good enough but his computer is not tuned for it and sr20 injectors are not large enough to support 9 psi anyways.
> 
> Tuning a 96 ecu is simple... send it in tell them what you're doing and pay the man.


With larger injectors, will I be able to go back to running with no boost if I want, or will my engine run rich? I don't know how much control the ECU has over that.

Also, how do people control boost on superchargers. I have heard that you can get different sized pulleys, but that makes it so you get your max amount of boost at high RPM, and hardly any boost at low RPM right? I think it would be cool to have some sort of valve in the system that would let off air as soon as it hits a certain PSI. That way, you could run 6psi or so all the time no matter how fast your engine is running. (That's probably what a blow off valve is huh.)


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

well regardless with a SC you're going to get max psi at redline... that's just a way a supercharger is. the only other way I can think of to control boost is some sort of bleeder valve that when it reaches a certain preset psi on a spring the valve pops open, not quite the same as a BOV because a BOV opens when you loose boost suddenly. but this valve would have to flow an assload of air...  

Edit: Like Chimmike said... why the hell was he using a wastegate on a SC? he wanted to let all that exhaust out that's driving it????  ehehehehehe...

JWT can program it so you can run the larger injectors without the SC and be ok. Benefits of a MAF system I guess...


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

stevja1 said:


> With larger injectors, will I be able to go back to running with no boost if I want, or will my engine run rich? I don't know how much control the ECU has over that.


When I did my turbocharger installation, I got the 370s and ECU first so I could make sure the injector swap was OK.

I asked them at JWT if it was OK to run without the turbo. They said that the spark advance was very conservative and the fuel map was on the rich side, but it would be OK to run without the turbo. I set the timing at 19*, and ran that way for several months waiting for the HotShot kit to arrive. I didn't have any problems, but SOTP it did not have as much power.

Lew


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> it original in that he had the balls to try something new on the GA16...whether he failed or not, thats not the point. the point is that he put work into that kit...and money...and time...even though it may not look like it


No that's not the point... balls and no brains, not a good combination. You two must be related, you also don't like to listen to others with experiance...lol


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

chimmike said:


> is anyone gonna explain to me why the guy thought using a wastegate on a roots blower would control boost?


back to my original quote about not researching and or listening to people with real world experiance....pretty much explains it.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

sentra97gxe said:


> Steve, I wouldn't down the idea that fast. He said he'd be willing to take advice. If he could find a way to slow it down like a larger pulley or something it may work. If he does it and keeps a post on here and pretty much stays under nissanforums wing I think he could do it. Just can't jump right into it though like that other guy did. It'd take time and probably a good bit more money to get it right. However, if it's a car you need everyday it probably wouldn't be a good idea cuz something new like this could take time to fine tune to the point that its safe for daily driving. It's something new, we've gotta remember just because one person couldn't get it right don't mean it's impossible.
> 
> Mitch


Still amazes me that this continues to come up, there are reasons why people and manufaturers don't have SC's on small displacement motors...Sure you could make something that would work with a small amount of psi, but the money wouldn't be worth the gain when compared to turbo charging...

please do it, dyno it, prove it's viable, safe, and daily drivable.. then we will give you credit, until then let it drop..


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

I agree. superchargers also use a bit of power to even make power on an engine, and with small displacement, you need every last hp you can get.

besides the fact that centrifugal s/c's aren't exactly easy to place...........................if it was such a good idea, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY NOW...........you guys have to remember this. "I give props for him trying it" I don't give him props....he wouldn't listen to us. He gave us no numbers, now he's sellin the stuff on ebay? wtf.

do it right, or don't do it. Just because s/c is cheaper, doesn't mean it's good. and when all is said and done, doing it right (yes, super) is gonna cost probably the same as the hotshot kit.


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

^thats what im been preaching the whole time, price usually equals power and quality, cheap isn't a good think on the first of anything... thats why all cheap products are replicas of good product with cheap quality material


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

myoung said:


> No that's not the point... balls and no brains, not a good combination. You two must be related, you also don't like to listen to others with experiance...lol




i like to listen to people that know what they are talking about...why the hell are you bringin shit up from another forum to this thread? mature.


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

chimmike said:


> is anyone gonna explain to me why the guy thought using a wastegate on a roots blower would control boost?


I've been thinking about this, and I figure that a positive displacement supercharger needs a device on the outlet that opens at a set pressure and ducts the air back into the inlet to control the boost. That way the air metered by the MAF will all get to the engine, eventually (it has nowhere else to go).

A wastegate opens at a set pressure and ducts the exhaust around the turbo, in a normal application, to control boost. I think it could be used to control the boost in a supercharger if set up to duct the compressed air back to the inlet side of the compressor. The wastegate would have to have a large enough opening, and the return duct would have to be large enough to handle the excess pressure/flow. I don't know whether it can react fast enough to avoid boost spikes.

However, I can envision conditions where the supercharger compresses more air than the engine can handle, and ducting it back to the inlet will reverse the flow in the inlet back through the MAF for a short period of time. So.. the pulleys driving the supercharger must be chosen such that at max rpms the boost is not much greater than what the engine can handle. Also, the supercharger may have to be turned off at idle.

If this works, it seems like it would be used in a similar way as nitrous is used. Turn it on when you need it at WOT.

Lew


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> i like to listen to people that know what they are talking about...why the hell are you bringin shit up from another forum to this thread? mature.


those seem like fighting words... 




dont take it too series, he was prolly joking..


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## sentra97gxe (Mar 17, 2004)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> i like to listen to people that know what they are talking about...why the hell are you bringin shit up from another forum to this thread? mature.


How about we settle this on the black top.


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

^thats sounds liek a good plan, we can get video footage it..


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

lshadoff said:


> I've been thinking about this, and I figure that a positive displacement supercharger needs a device on the outlet that opens at a set pressure and ducts the air back into the inlet to control the boost. That way the air metered by the MAF will all get to the engine, eventually (it has nowhere else to go).
> 
> A wastegate opens at a set pressure and ducts the exhaust around the turbo, in a normal application, to control boost. I think it could be used to control the boost in a supercharger if set up to duct the compressed air back to the inlet side of the compressor. The wastegate would have to have a large enough opening, and the return duct would have to be large enough to handle the excess pressure/flow. I don't know whether it can react fast enough to avoid boost spikes.
> 
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly. You're saying that to control boost, you want a wastegate-type setup that feeds excess pressure back into the sc intake?

Wouldn't that give you higher compression?

Would there be a way to get a wastegate set up in such a way so that it just blows off extra air into the engine compartment, or on the radiator or something? (Or blows excess air into a special pipe that runs up to the intercooler....  I'm not really sure how wastegates work, and I remember seeing a post about how dumb it is to use a wastegate on a sc.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

stevja1 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly. You're saying that to control boost, you want a wastegate-type setup that feeds excess pressure back into the sc intake?
> 
> Wouldn't that give you higher compression?
> 
> Would there be a way to get a wastegate set up in such a way so that it just blows off extra air into the engine compartment, or on the radiator or something? (Or blows excess air into a special pipe that runs up to the intercooler....  I'm not really sure how wastegates work, and I remember seeing a post about how dumb it is to use a wastegate on a sc.


Boost will always be primarily determined by pulley size... The wastegate idea or any type of valve idea... it just doesn't really work... or at least hard to get to work well... 

You can't lose metered air from a MAF system, the car will run like crap if you blow off the boost to anything other than the intake tract after the MAF...


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

stevja1 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly. You're saying that to control boost, you want a wastegate-type setup that feeds excess pressure back into the sc intake?
> 
> Wouldn't that give you higher compression?
> 
> Would there be a way to get a wastegate set up in such a way so that it just blows off extra air into the engine compartment, or on the radiator or something? (Or blows excess air into a special pipe that runs up to the intercooler....  I'm not really sure how wastegates work, and I remember seeing a post about how dumb it is to use a wastegate on a sc.


The supercharger will be drawing a certain amount of air at any particular rpm. It creates boost if the amount is greater than what the engine is using. The amount of boost will depend on how much air the supercharger is pumping and how much air the engine is taking in. If the supercharger starts pumping too much air, the boost will rise to a level the engine cannot tolerate without a control device.

By ducting excess air back into the intake, you put the supercharger into a loop which is created only when the output boost exceeds whatever the wastegate is set for. This will cause the boost to drop because some of the air pumped by the supercharger does not go to the engine. It effectively reduces the amount of air that is supplied to the engine. As soon as the boost drops to what the wastegate is set for, it will start to close, and eventually reach a steady-state where the boost is constant. The faster the supercharger spins, the more air it pumps, so as you accelerate the wastegate must open wider and wider to keep a constant boost (assuming the supercharger can supply more air than the engine can use).

You can't blow off extra air because the MAF has already measured it and uses the information to supply the correct amount of fuel. The engine would run very rich whenever it is vented.

Lew


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

*More Thoughts on a Positive Displacement Supercharger*

The more I ponder this, the more I am coming to the conclusion that it is doable.

The butterfly valve should be mounted in front of the supercharger, but after the MAF. This has one big advantage. At cruising speed or at idle the supercharger will be under a vacuum. This negates one of the undesirable characteristics of a positive displacement supercharger, that it is pumping all the time. It will be pumping thinner air, will draw less power from the engine, and create less boost at a time when it is not needed.

When the butterfly is opened, the supercharger will create boost almost immediately since it is already spun up. This combined with a boost controlling device like a recirculating pop-off valve (wastegate) will make it practicable, IMHO.

What needs to be done is to measure the volume of air pumped as a function of rpm. Once that is determined, the pulley sizes can be chosen to match the capabilities of the engine.

This setup may even work with a JWT turbo program.

Lew


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## koroshiya (Dec 28, 2002)

chimmike said:


> is anyone gonna explain to me why the guy thought using a wastegate on a roots blower would control boost?



Go back and read the thread about when he blew it up, The waste gate held fine for a couple of days at 5.whatever PSI, then he go cocky and killed his engine by takeing the waste gate off to see what the car "WOULD DO". He then proceded to blow his engine. He is an Idiot, i agree, i personally would of listened a little more to what you guys said, prob not much more but i would of listened. The whole superchager thing can work, but some one witha little more time and money needs to do it right instead of short cuts like he took.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> i like to listen to people that know what they are talking about...why the hell are you bringin shit up from another forum to this thread? mature.


Seems like you already were getting defensive about your remarks.

First off when I replied to that I didn't even know about your words on SR20forums. But since being directed to it, According to you no one here at NF is worth listening to...., if that's the case then stay on SR20forums


> *"guys on NF dont know the answers, and cant give examples"*


 especially since


> *" i dont trust what most of them have to say"*



mature?  not even worth the trouble to respond.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

koroshiya said:


> Go back and read the thread about when he blew it up, The waste gate held fine for a couple of days at 5.whatever PSI, then he go cocky and killed his engine by takeing the waste gate off to see what the car "WOULD DO". He then proceded to blow his engine. He is an Idiot, i agree, i personally would of listened a little more to what you guys said, prob not much more but i would of listened. The whole superchager thing can work, but some one witha little more time and money needs to do it right instead of short cuts like he took.


No Dave, the car never lasted one day...


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

James said:


> No Dave, the car never lasted one day...


So, you mean that the car, even with the waste gate, didn't last a day?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

yeah exactly. he didn't even last one drive! forget the wastegate... it is not important (besides he DISCONNECTED the line for it!)


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