# New front stage!!



## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

I figured everything out for my new front stage. Its getting completely re-done so the old shitty RF amp will be discarded. Without further adieu, this is what i have planned

Mids- Image Dynamics CX62 (6.5" driver, 2 ohm impedance, 150 RMS power handling)

Tweets- Image Dynamics NX30 (1" silk dome tweeter, 100 RMS power handling)

Crossover- Linear Power X03 (Sub playing from 60 hz down, Mid playing 60 hz- 4 kHz, tweet playing from 4 kHz up...these will be played with because the CX62 is only rated to play up to 3.5 kHz)

Amp- Hifonics Zeus ZX6400 (85 watts x 2 for the tweeters, 170 watts x 2 for the mids)

Deadening- ~30 square feet of eDead v.1 on the doors.

Wiring- Power wire from the battery will be upgrades to 1/0 gauge splitting into 4 gauge to the amps. RCA's will be monster cable.

I'm going to put the CX62's in the factory locations with the help of a 1/2" spacer, the NX30's will go in the door panel in front of the door handle. Amp will be under the drivers seat. Crossover will be in the glove box.

I will be doing this like sr20dem0n and getting it piece by piece, and i will have pics of it all as it comes in.


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## Azgrower (Oct 1, 2004)

Sounds good, make sure to get some nice build up pics... :cheers:


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Please don't cram the amp under your seat. that's sooooo ghetto.

als, you're going to want to run the mids a little higher than 60hz unless you build a sealed enclosure for them.. usually I run them about 100hz and up for high volume stuff, but when I'm at shows I turn my subs down to -20dB and run the fronts down to 20hz. they're not played loud enough to need to worry about the doors vibrating that way, and cone excursion is still fairly low.


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## Jasper (Apr 2, 2004)

Punkrocka436 said:


> I will be doing this like sr20dem0n and getting it piece by piece, and i will have pics of it all as it comes in.



heh, me too.

i've never heard the ID components, but if your interested, i can still get you the CDT comp's for short money 

keep us updated....good luck with anything from LP, they're not accepting any new order until 2005 (moving base of operations from west coast to east coast)
everything else looks good man

for the 6.5in mids, i'd say cross them over between 68-80hz (mine are crossed @ 72hz). those 6.5in cones can pump out a LOT of bass...tweeters i'd say around 3500, but thats preference. play around with it, see what you like/what you get better imaging with. good spot for the tweeters...thats where i have mine.

we crave pictures!! put em up!


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

looks very nice

let us know how that LP xover works out, I've been looking for an in-dash 3-way like that but I can't decide on anything


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

Matt93SE said:


> Please don't cram the amp under your seat. that's sooooo ghetto.
> 
> als, you're going to want to run the mids a little higher than 60hz unless you build a sealed enclosure for them.. usually I run them about 100hz and up for high volume stuff, but when I'm at shows I turn my subs down to -20dB and run the fronts down to 20hz. they're not played loud enough to need to worry about the doors vibrating that way, and cone excursion is still fairly low.


where shall i begin with this one...

Why shouldnt i put the amp under my seat? Its out of sight (my school is common for getting stereos stolen) and its clean. Air flow is good (amps heat up less than in the trunk) and it is easy to get to to tune. 

Cross the mids at 100 hz? are you serious. The sub shouldnt play higher than about 65 hz ideally, 80 hz max. 100 hz is midbass territory suitable for mids. My crystals are crossed at 70 hz in the doors and they do it just fine.

I think you would do better in shows if you crossed the mids lower. For SQ, you want as much music in front of you as possible.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Airflow under your seat is NOT good. trust me. been there, done that. there's more than enough air in the trunk to keep the amps cool.

the 100hz crossover recommendation is one that I've been using for years. As I said above, I don't use it at shows, but when I'm driving around town and want to turn it up, I have to push it that far up in order to keep the mids from jumping out of the doors. unless your doors are built tougher and sealed better than mine (which I doubt. Nissan really took a dump on anything built after '94, and the doors sound like tin cans.), then your doors will rattle and your midbass will suck if you don't have a separate sealed enclosure for the mid.

if you keep the volume down--- I'm repeating my last thread here cause you obviously didn't read it--- then you can run the fronts to a very low frequency and turn the subs way down. I ran my front speakers full-range and crossed my subs at 32 or 40 hz, -20dB just to fill in the really low stuff..

if you want to turn the volume up, you can't do that. Set the XO to 100Hz on both sub and mid, and my car would play 115+ dB with a flat SPL curve. That's nasty loud when you're stuck in a car. subs weren't that loud at only 135dB, but I built the car for SQ and huge dynamics, not SPL.

Again, for SQ, run the crossover lower. for SPL and to protect your mids from killing themselves, run them a bit higher. I have years of experience with this.

Oh.... and do BETTER at shows? Both years that I competed, I went to IASCA finals and got on the podium. I'd say that's pretty damn good for a low-buck installer like myself.


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

Well there is plenty of airflow under my seats....thanks to two squirell cage cooling fans thank you. How is it that my amps run cooler under the seats than in the trunk? Can you please answer that for me? I dont give a shit about SPL, I am all about SQ. Honestly, the boom boom pisses me off, all i need is a nice tight low end.

I dont listen to my music at low volumes....its either off or its loud. How could a woofer thats rated from 45 hz to 3,500 hz play down to 32 hz? Right, it cant. If it does reproduce those frequencies below 45 hz, it sounds distorted and muddy. Why would I want my mids playing that low anyway? Thats what my sub is for. Thank you i have done sound deadening on B14 doors before, and they do not rattle. There is no need for a sealed enclosure there.

I did read your last post, i just think its bullshit. And honestly, I don't give a shit how you do at shows. I misunderstood the part about you not using the 100 hz x-over for shows, because if you did use 100 hz as the x-over point for the mids, then you wouldnt be on the podium.

You cannot come here and tell me that putting my amps under the seats is going to make them run hot, and that running them in the trunk will be better. It might work for you, but it doesnt work for me. Dont come here and act like I am newb and you are grand master audio. 

There is also the fact that I have a fully functional trunk. the sub is tucked away in the right rear corner of the trunk and does perfectly fine when my trunk is full with 2 duffell bags, and 2 snowboards. Something tells me that an amp is not going to like ice and snow dripping all over it.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

man, you don't have to get your panties in a wad because I shot down your ideas..

(FYI, SQ and loud don't usually go together.)

if you've got fans on your amps, then they're going to run okay under the seats, but the fans will still make noise. last thing I want to hear during a quiet passage in a song or between tracks is a couple fans whirring under my butt.
If you mount your amps properly in the trunk, they won't take up that much room, and they won't be affected by stuff tossed back there. I've done several installs where I haven't lost any trunk space, yet I can throw a full set of tires in the trunk and not damage a thing.
It's possible, you just have to put a little more thought into it.

But then again, if you want to put amps under your seats, go right ahead. hope you have a good alarm and like hearing the sound of cooling fans. not my cup of tea.


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## Jasper (Apr 2, 2004)

Matt93SE said:


> (FYI, SQ and loud don't usually go together.)




bullllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllshit


SQ and "loud" (SPL) arent very difficult to run together...hell, i'd like to see something be as loud as my setup, and still retain the quality that i have.
he's spending some big money for his setup matt, its gonna sound incredible, better than anything else he's ever had, and its gonna be capable of being loud enough to damn near make his ears bleed.
i don't see you around these forums much, (not in audio anyways)...but you're a mod, so i'll respect that...but give us some credit...theres the select few of us on here that LIVE for car audio


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

the fans arent audible even if the music is off until you are right next to them.

I also picked under seat for the ease of installation, I didnt have to run 16 foot RCA's and 16 feet of power wire to the back of my car. I do have a good alarm thank you, Clifford Matrix RS2.5X does the trick.

SQ setups arent good setups unless they can be played at high volume and not lose quality.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Notice I said USUALLY.
MOST SQ systems aren't designed to be loud. MOST loud systems aren't designed for SQ. Can you have a good sounding, loud system? I haven't heard a single 150dB+ system that I like playing Stevie Ray Vaughn at high volumes. I don't consier a 140dB system loud anymore. Mine 'only' pumps out about 135dB, but it sounds pretty damn good. there are plenty out there that will eclipse mine easily as well. The components he's chosen will certainly give mine a run for the money IF installed properly.

You guys seem to think that a difference in opinion means I'm calling you guys idiots. I'm simply sharing my experiences and 13 years of experience in the industry. If he wants to install the amps under his seats, by all means, go ahead. But again, don't plan on winning any shows or expect other installers not to point and laugh.

Big Money doesn't necessarily mean great sound either. Sure, he's picked a lot of GOOD components, but all that GOOD equipment can be ruined by poor install- which is where I'm trying to help out. a 6.5" mid simply can't play below about 80hz in a door very loud and NOT flex the door panel. ain't gonna happen. the door isn't strong enough. even with 20lb of dynamat in the doors and a sealed enclosure, mine still shake the screws loose in the doors every few weeks. I've gotten to the point I put the door panels together with loctite so the screws don't come out.

the reason I haven't been in here much? I haven't been working on my system for a long time, so I've felt no desire to come in here. I'm now in the process of saving weight on the car for performance, so I'm taking a few steps back to see how I can keep the system and still lose the weight.


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

Did I say I wanted to compete? No. I dont have the time, nor the money to compete. I am 17 years old, still in high school, with a 10-15 hour a week part time job. There is no way in hell i could compete.



> I'm trying to help out. a 6.5" mid simply can't play below about 80hz in a door very loud and NOT flex the door panel.


that is a false statement. Sure, it may flex the door panel if its just mounted there, but if its properly done, it wont flex. 

We must have a difference in opinion on the word "loud." Why would you want to drive around every day listening to a stereo at 150 dB? Im happy that 140 dB doesnt sound loud to you anymore, and that you have 13 years experience in the industy. You still are not wowing me.

For the record, the other "installers" that I come across on a daily basis are the ones being laughed at. The ones who work at best buy who think the best possible mounting location for an amp is on the back of the back seat with all the wiring visible. Other "installers" that I come across are the stupid kids at my school with a stock stereo, an "800 watt" sony amp, and 2 12" visonik subs in a bandpass box. These people think my stereo sucks because it doesnt massage their back, but they keep asking me "what was that lyric?" because they cant hear shit because its too loud. 

Sorry that I am not a professional. I taught myself how to install stereos cleanly (you cannot see any of the wiring with everything in place) and with good SQ. 150 dB isnt something that makes me go "ooooh ahhhh", 150 dB makes me think "why in hell would you want that"


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## Azgrower (Oct 1, 2004)

Punkrocka436 said:


> I dont give a shit about SPL, I am all about SQ. Honestly, the boom boom pisses me off, all i need is a nice tight low end.


me too! I dont like seeing those SPL vehicles with just a huge fawking box tossed in the trunk or rear seat and a huge 0 gauge wires everywhere. Where is the finesse and style in that? If you can achieve a clean, beautiful, and elegant system with what you are gonna do, then do it. You can always make mods later on. I would play with the frequencies once your done installing everything. You may find that what your original plans might change. It takes time to get imaging and tonality correct. You are on the correct path though...fo sho'!


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Best Buy and Circuit City geeks aren't installers, man.. 80% of those kids are drive-through window jockies that have moved up one step on the ladder..

I'm talking about _real_ installers, like Rob Rice, Rich Clark, Eddie Runner, Mark Eldridge, etc..

http://www.kicker.com/ShowPage.cfm?filename=01iascafinals.htm
Take a look at that link.. Read the comments, then scroll to the bottom and lok over that list. notice how many of the cars are from Oklahoma?
Most of those are either people who worked at Car Toys of Tulsa or had Car Toys do the install. One of the best in the business. THOSE are the guys that taught me. Not some best buy jockey or a book. it takes hands-on experience to learn how to do this stuff, and you don't get that slapping in a deck-and-four at your local best buy.

As for the SPL... it's not my thing either, but it's essential in a car audio environment to have dynamics. high SPL proves the dynamics are there. not that a car can't sound good at lower volumes, but in order to do it, it's got to have the reserve power to kick out some major noise when needed. I'm also not talking about a 150dB "box on wheels". a GOOD system will be capable of 140dB of _clean_ bass while still looking nice and sounding great. 130dB should be a minimum for a good system, even if you never turn it up past 90dB.
note most of the winners I linked above win in SQ, install quality, AND SPL... not just one or the other.

and don't play the "I'm just 17" card on me. that tells me you've got a lot to learn yet. not that I know everything at 27, but don't sit there and try to school me when I've been installing systems since you were in kindergarden!


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## Azgrower (Oct 1, 2004)

I am sure we all have some valid points here on the forum...we can all learn from each other, but we need to play nice here. Sometimes its better to humble yourself and learn something new, but its also another thing to try and present the information without trying to put anyone down. We are all here for the same reason...to try and learn.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Bah... it's easier to argue. Remember.. we're all big, badass mofos when we're hiding behind a keyboard!


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## squeezinSE (Nov 15, 2002)

not to knock the big boy Car Toys installers but in the Nortwest their installers aren't considered shit for installers as they are no different than Best Buy. Granted the equipment they sell is nicer but the installers don't know shit. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt. Here they are still just a chain store that might be able to do something custom.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

squeezinSE said:


> not to knock the big boy Car Toys installers but in the Nortwest their installers aren't considered shit for installers as they are no different than Best Buy. Granted the equipment they sell is nicer but the installers don't know shit. My opinion, take it with a grain of salt. Here they are still just a chain store that might be able to do something custom.



Same with Texas, they're a little better than the idiots at BB and CC, but not much

though I heard that they just started carrying Audison, which has brought them up a few notches in my book


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Car Toys of Tulsa is NOT related to the chain stores. Totally different company. They are two stores, both located in Tulsa, privately owned by Rob Rice.


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

you'll notice that when referring to the installers at best buy, I used quotation marks for a reason. I'm proud that you can drop names of pro installers that taught you how to do your thing, but thats not the point. 

Lets talk about my experience. My first install was helping wiht a friend do his. Thats how i learned the basics (connections, setting up, etc). I did a couple on my car as well as a few of my friends cars. The first ones were nothing major (amp and a sub, sometimes speakers) but then i started to get into it. I taught myself how to build boxes out of MDF (sealed and ported- round and slot ports) and how to deaden a vehicle properly. I moved up and taught myself how to fiberglass. It was rough work in the beginning but a few hundred dollars in supplies later and i had the basic idea. I've done kick panels, sub boxes, speaker grills, and gauge mounts. All my stereo equipment has been done by me. I did a GXE to SE interior conversion by myself. I think that I have plenty of hands on experience for only being 17. 

You are right, I still have a lot to learn, but I know more about what I am doing than 90% of the people my age installing stereos. I'm not trying to school you, I'm trying to show you that you don't impress me with your experience in the industry, and the people you know. Can you not accept the fact that someone as young as myself isnt just another ricer thinking he can win shows? I cant win any shows wtih my install, but it sounds good and thats all that matters

Woo, you have been installing stereos since I was in kindergarted? Big shit, so my parents decided to have me 10 years later than yours did. Whos fault is that. 



> high SPL proves the dynamics are there


Who am I trying to prove myself to? No one. I came here to let people know what I proposed to do. You can choose to knock me all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that I do know what I am doing, and you can take that 13 years of installing, the big names you can drop, your podium finishes at IASCA and whatever else you can throw at me. You still arent impressing me. You arent "showing me the light."

I may be just another punk kid to you, but I have spent my time do do my research. I take my time on projects, and the result is exactly what I want, a hidden install that does not sacrifice function. 



> Bah... it's easier to argue. Remember.. we're all big, badass mofos when we're hiding behind a keyboard!


Am I trying to be a badass mofo? I am not getting hostile, and I'm not e-thuggin. The truth? You could most likely kick my ass, but that wouldnt stop me from arguing with you about this in person. I think your the one trying to be a badass mofo dropping names and belittling my proposed setup because its not up to your standards.

Good day


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

hmmm, alllll this BS because I told you mounting your amps under the seat is ghetto, and offered some advice on crossover frequencies..

you then shot all of my advice down like you know everything- you don't. neither do I. just take some criticism next time and be thankful I offered some advice. If you don't want to use it, then that's fine. your car, your crappy sound.. next time I'll just keep my mouth shut and wait until you blow a mid at high volume because you have it crossed over too low. your car, your choice. don't get upset when I point and laugh at your blown up shit..


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

you do that! :thumbup: 

I will keep everyone updated on the progress on Project: Crappy sound because I didnt listen to Matt93SE


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Good luck, and have fun installing!


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

muchas gracias...and thanks for the discussion, was fun


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## Jasper (Apr 2, 2004)

i can feel the love!


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

lets all hold hands and sing cumbaya!!!!

[no]


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## Azgrower (Oct 1, 2004)

Cant we all just get a bong...(errr I mean "get along")?


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

heh heh heh


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

update: I decided to go in a little bit different direction. I decided the Image Dynamics setup was going to be too expensive for right now, and I went ahead and bought a pair of eDi's. I recieved them, as well as the rest of the parts needed for my interior conversion (door panels, door sills, b-pillars), and installed everything yesterday. These things sound absolutely amazing!! Went from Crystal Components to these, and even with my sub off, it reproduced the lower frequencies without problems. 

I drilled a hole in the door panels in front of the door latch, and installed the tweeters in this location. That, and making 3/8" spacers was the only fabrication that I needed to do. 

The great thing about these components is that there is an extra terminal on the crossovers for an Image Tweeter. I am thinking about putting the Crystal tweeters in to do some testing to see if it sounds better, or its too bright. 

The silk dome tweets are not too bright at all. The imaging is so much better, and the off-axis response of both the midrange, and the tweeter is amazing. No pics as of yet, but there will be after i get my eDead. My friend was supposed to come over with his digital camera yesterday to take some "in the process pictures", but he got called in to work. 

Just an update, I cant wait to get everything finished.


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