# Battery discharges overnight: no obvious culprit. I'm stumped.



## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

Well, I'm throwing in the towel on this one. Meaning I'm going to take my car to a shop I trust in the morning, and they can find the problem. These guys are pretty good, they guarantee their work (so if it ain't fixed I can go back & say "Let's try again"), and it's only $35 an hour to track an electrical bug.

Back in April the battery died. Sounds simple, and the battery was about 6 years old, so I went to Auto Zone & swapped it out. That one died within a couple of days, I lucked into an Auto Zone guy taking pity on me & giving me a new battery and I'm thinking the alternator must be bad, because alternator/battery health is closely linked, so I put in another Duralast alternator like I'd had before. Found an iffy connection or two as well. So I fixed those.

Thought we were good to go another few years but I was wrong.

Long story short: new batteries will not hold their charge. The "battery" light that is supposed to indicate discharge works, but it has never come on after firing up the engine. Since April I'm on the 3rd battery (all Duralast Gold, which had been good to me before this) and the 3rd alternator (2 Duralasts, now a Bosch). Car works fine that day & the next on a full charge or a new battery, but the next morning it is dead.

Jeez, who knows? "Parasitic discharge?"

Anybody have any ideas? Ever heard of this happening before?

This one has me whipped. There has to be a short or a fried-up fusible link or something somewhere. Could even be that the battery has been discharging during normal operation without the "battery" light coming on. . .but I don't know, man. It comes on as I start the car (as it's supposed to, in test mode) but goes out when the engine is running.

WTF?


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## Derrick (Apr 7, 2003)

*Hummmmmmmm*

Hey man let us know what the problem was because I'm going thru a similar situation.


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## jakehale (Aug 8, 2004)

*Well*



Derrick said:


> Hey man let us know what the problem was because I'm going thru a similar situation.


On my car i have this "electronic Corrosion" thingy-a-mah-bob,,, it has a direct tie with the battery. I left it hook up once and it drained my battery. 
it is located right hand side (looking at it) back on the firewall, up top, and has lights on it, At least it does when i connect it. Hooked the wire up one day, ran the car for month or so, then didnt drive it for 3 days and the battery was dead... Could be something to look at...


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*She's in my mechanics' hands (send good thoughts)*

Yeah, I don't have a corrosion gizmo, I don't have ABS brakes & I don't have airbags. . .so that's less to tangle with in terms of wiring than brand-new cars.

The only thing that's supposed to draw any current at all when the switch is turned off is the clock.




jakehale said:


> On my car i have this "electronic Corrosion" thingy-a-mah-bob,,, it has a direct tie with the battery. I left it hook up once and it drained my battery.
> it is located right hand side (looking at it) back on the firewall, up top, and has lights on it, At least it does when i connect it. Hooked the wire up one day, ran the car for month or so, then didnt drive it for 3 days and the battery was dead... Could be something to look at...


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Verdict from the mechanics / How to bracket a short circuit*

The fellers at Groovy Automotive have done me right once again. They've never tried to sell me a thing. In fact, in this case they were only going to charge me $37.50 for the diagnosis, and I ended up saying "Can I buy this part from you?"

They ran some tests and picked up a 7.6 milliampere draw on my battery with the switch turned off. That's accounted for by the clock and the saved settings in the combustion computer. Would be slightly higher if I had my stereo & alarm connected--but still, noplace near enough to drain my battery.

Which I bought three days ago from Auto Zone. A Dura-Last Gold. I had good luck with one of their batteries & alternators before. Not this time. This battery has an internal short that keeps 4 of the cells from charging beyond 25% and the other 2 from going up beyond 50%. That's a problem if you want your car to start on a regular basis (say, driving to work).

I had already put in 2 Dura-Last alternators, but they weren't cutting it. So I put in a Bosch alternator, which has probably been working really hard trying to charge this latest Auto Zone Dura-Last battery. The Groovy guys tested the alternator & said it is fine.

So I got a NAPA Interstate battery through the Groovy guys (my idea, not theirs) and I'm going back to Auto Zone for a refund. Not a swap-out--I've had quite enough of that--but my money back.

We'll see how this Interstate job holds up.

Makes me leery of Auto Zone parts. I do buy oil & stuff there--but if that stuff says Castrol or Mobil 1 or Bosch on it, then those are Castrol & Mobil 1 & Bosch products--right? Not some lower-line product with other companies' labels packaged specifically for Auto Zone?

------------------------------------------------


The Groovy guys did recommend a nifty method for running down a short circuit:

1. Pull off your negative battery cable so the chassis is no longer grounded.

2. Connect a low-voltage (and ONLY a low-voltage) test light on your negative battery post. You need one with a long enough wire to reach your fuse box, and the ones with an ice-pick probe are the best.

3. Pull each fuse, one at a time. When the fuse is pulled, touch the ground side (NOT the hot side) of the slot in the box where the fuse plugs in.

4. When you do that, the light should not come on. Pulling the fuse should open the entire circuit (meaning it is de-energized). If the light does come on, you have isolated the circuit where the short is.

5. Have lots of fun finding that short. At least you know which circuit it's in. This is much better than having to wander through your entire electrical harness. It helps to have an FSM.

Generally add-on stuff is the first place to begin looking.

Obviously this process could take a long time and be a real pain. By definition, electrical problems are the devil's handiwork. I HATE electrical bugs.




92 Sinatra said:


> Yeah, I don't have a corrosion gizmo, I don't have ABS brakes & I don't have airbags. . .so that's less to tangle with in terms of wiring than brand-new cars.
> 
> The only thing that's supposed to draw any current at all when the switch is turned off is the clock.


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## Twiz (Aug 24, 2004)

Don't you have a Murray's Discount Auto or PepBoys around there ? I bought ceramic brake pads from AutoZone and they started cracking after a week cause they can't dissipate the heat properly. I went back and I got a full refund after arguing with them about their low quality product... I got a fuel filter for my Sentra and that sucked too and they wanted $12.99 for it... it was mostly made out of plastic. I ended up getting a Denso fuel filter on-line for $9.99. Their Mobil 1 fully synthetic oil and the M208 oil filter that fits my car are overpriced. I wouldn't go back to AutoZone even if you'd pay me to walk in.


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Best local parts dealer in Austin, Texas: Van's*

PepBoys? We've got 'em, but I won't go there. Or Sears. Neither for parts nor work. Not in this lifetime.

At least at the Zone, I'm the one who does the installation. But I might not buy much there again, after my recent experience. Why would I?

Our best local parts place is called Van's. Best local mechanics are at Groovy. There used to be another called Rising Sun (because they started out specializing in Japanese imports) who were generally pretty good, but something happened and they went under.

Most dealerships here in town are good, but you will pay right out the wazoo.




Twiz said:


> Don't you have a Murray's Discount Auto or PepBoys around there ? I bought ceramic brake pads from AutoZone and they started cracking after a week cause they can't dissipate the heat properly. I went back and I got a full refund after arguing with them about their low quality product... I got a fuel filter for my Sentra and that sucked too and they wanted $12.99 for it... it was mostly made out of plastic. I ended up getting a Denso fuel filter on-line for $9.99. Their Mobil 1 fully synthetic oil and the M208 oil filter that fits my car are overpriced. I wouldn't go back to AutoZone even if you'd pay me to walk in.


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## Twiz (Aug 24, 2004)

Interstate makes good batteries... is your battery okay now ? A bad alternator or a bad starter will discharge your battery fast... Did you run a test on them make sure they're okay?


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*It still ain't fixed*

Sigh. . . .

I was afraid when I tried to start my car to go to work this morning, it would be dead. I didn't have to worry about that: It was dead last night when I tried to drive home.

So my car is back in the hands of the Groovy guys. They were real surprised & disappointed to see me again this morning. I told them "Jeez, I hope I don't end up having to take her to the dealership & pay millions of dollars."

They assured me that "We will find it." I guess it's just a matter of time.

Electrical problems are indeed the handiwork of the devil.






Twiz said:


> Interstate makes good batteries... is your battery okay now ? A bad alternator or a bad starter will discharge your battery fast... Did you run a test on them make sure they're okay?


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## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

what you need is a deep cycle battery. SCREW all of those POS duralast batterys and all that jazz. buy an optima deep cycle battery.

http://www.optimabatteries.com/publ...onfig/product_info/automotive/deep_cycle.html


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## Twiz (Aug 24, 2004)

I would try to locate the problem myself... it can't be that hard. You start to trace every wire from the positive lead of the battery, pull some fuses and you should be able to find the problem. Now before you start any test... are you 100% sure that the battery can hold a charge? You said it's brand new ... right ? Okay for example let's say you assume the starter is bad and it's got a short in it somewhere, so you disconnect only the heavy gauge wire from the starter leading to the battery's positive lead and leave it like that overnight then you reconnect it the next day before you start. Then try this step again but with the alternator this time. Also you'll want to look at the insulation on all heavy gauge wires which carry 12V on them make sure they're alright. You grab the wires which lead to the positive lead and you inspect them... all the way. Then you could start pulling a few fuses ... try the ones with a higher Amps on them first and again plug em back in the next day. Each step will get you closer. Exclude every branch by testing it... disconnecting it till you locate the problem.

Upgrading to an Optima battery is not an option at this time. You need to find the electrical problem first. It's like you're replacing a 15A fuse with a 30A... you can't do that. 

Good Luck!


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## HATEnFATE (Dec 24, 2002)

There's no reason to upgrade your battery, thats a waste. Do what Twiz said. get a Multimeter and start tracing wires. You've definatly got something heavy draggin your battery down. What exactly is your car doing thats killing it? is it just not starting or is it just dead?
I just got done dealing with a major electrical issue and it turned out to be just the main engine ground wire. It caused major electrical chaos.


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Dead in the water*

The mechanics are gonna keep my car overnight. They are charging the Interstate battery they sold me to make sure it's sound.

As for afterward. . .I'm not sure. They said that with the key off, they mainly picked up on a 7.6-milliampere draw--but then at other times they detected a BIG one of the sort that would kill any battery.

Electrical problems are really devilish because on top of it all, they can be intermittent. Hide & seek. Makes me very unhappy.

The way it drains, it leaves enough juice to run the clock. Nothing more: no lights, no horn, no buzz from having the key in and the door open, nothing. No dashboard lights of any kind when I turn the switch. And of course no start.

I'm gonna see what kind of deal these guys might make me; their regular hourly rate is $70, which could add up really fast. I don't have much money.

As far as upgrading the battery to an Optima or whatever, somebody made that suggestion in here but plainly it is premature. Maybe someday. I'm not convinced those things are worth the price. And the electrolyte is a gel, meaning it is much more viscous than your ordinary electrolyte and its concentration & flow can vary in uniformity. "Gel" is a very trendy word, but it isn't always necessarily better. 




HATEnFATE said:


> There's no reason to upgrade your battery, thats a waste. Do what Twiz said. get a Multimeter and start tracing wires. You've definatly got something heavy draggin your battery down. What exactly is your car doing thats killing it? is it just not starting or is it just dead?
> I just got done dealing with a major electrical issue and it turned out to be just the main engine ground wire. It caused major electrical chaos.


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## PeaNutB13 (Apr 14, 2004)

92 Sinatra said:


> PepBoys? We've got 'em, but I won't go there. Or Sears. Neither for parts nor work. Not in this lifetime.
> 
> At least at the Zone, I'm the one who does the installation. But I might not buy much there again, after my recent experience. Why would I?
> 
> ...


A while back I had a customer go through 3 batteries, it was on his third one i asked him " What is killing these things?" He says the batteries we sell are junk and I want my money back!. So I say lets go and test the alternator and make sure that that is not the problem. Well the alternator tested fine but I noticed a thick wire connected to the positive side of his battery that ran to the back of the truck (he had a factory tow package). I asked him what that was for and his reply was that he didn't know. well I traced it under the vechicle and found out that a strap had broke that held the wire to the frame allowing the wire to come in contact with the cat and it was bouncing off of the hot cat causing a short thus killing the battery. 
I unhooked the wire and charged his battery. He was so gratefull and must have apologized 20 times for making such a scene. In fiftteen minutes his attitude did a 180 and since then he has been a great customer. 

I hope there is a quick solution for your problem good luck.


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## PeaNutB13 (Apr 14, 2004)

Oh yeah. check this out go HERE


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## Derrick (Apr 7, 2003)

*In Alabamy....*

Down here in Alabamy we have Autozone and advance.And they both suck.They have a plant that reconditions return alternaters and starters.All they do is clean,and test them replace whatever part thats broken or bad and then they resell them.That's why you have to go thru 4 or 5 to find a good one.This plant supplies both companies.Might as well go to a junk yard.You ever wonder why they give you the wrong parts....I also know one of there managers and he told me that when they have there regional meetings they teach this as marketing because they figure when you return this item theres a 70% chance that you will buy something else.I refuse to shop at these places I just go pay the extra money and go to NAPA.


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Here's hoping. . . .*

I let the Groovy Automotive guys keep my car over the holiday weekend. That's okay because at Memorial Day, the 4th, & Labor Day I generally just stay home, off the road, because it's always choked with traffic everywhere & to top it off people are drinking. Not cool in cars. I drink at home. Watch the sprinklers, watch tv, go take a nap. 

Anyhow, with my key off they measured an intermittent draw: usually 7.6 milliamperes (which is essentially nothing; I've learned that up to 50 milliamps for your clock & everything else in sleep mode is fine), but sometimes 24 amps. 24 amps (obviously) is bad. When they disconnected the power lead to the alternator the draw went away. So they said "Bingo!"--must be an internal draw in the alternator--& put another one in (I could do that myself, as I have before, but the car was already at their garage & I was transportation-deprived). Then she was gonna sit over the weekend & see if all was well.

Haven't heard yet but as I said, here's hoping. . . . 




Derrick said:


> Down here in Alabamy we have Autozone and advance.And they both suck.They have a plant that reconditions return alternaters and starters.All they do is clean,and test them replace whatever part thats broken or bad and then they resell them.That's why you have to go thru 4 or 5 to find a good one.This plant supplies both companies.Might as well go to a junk yard.You ever wonder why they give you the wrong parts....I also know one of there managers and he told me that when they have there regional meetings they teach this as marketing because they figure when you return this item theres a 70% chance that you will buy something else.I refuse to shop at these places I just go pay the extra money and go to NAPA.


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Problem fixed [where is the keep-your-fingers-crossed icon?]*

Well, okay: They think they got it. And my car did fire up okay today.

So. . .it looks as if it indeed was an internal alternator short.

I had a string of bad luck there. Since mid-April, 4 batteries & 4 alternators.

Overall this car has been remarkably reliable, but right now it's hard for me to trust her all that much.



92 Sinatra said:


> I let the Groovy Automotive guys keep my car over the holiday weekend. That's okay because at Memorial Day, the 4th, & Labor Day I generally just stay home, off the road, because it's always choked with traffic everywhere & to top it off people are drinking. Not cool in cars. I drink at home. Watch the sprinklers, watch tv, go take a nap.
> 
> Anyhow, with my key off they measured an intermittent draw: usually 7.6 milliamperes (which is essentially nothing; I've learned that up to 50 milliamps for your clock & everything else in sleep mode is fine), but sometimes 24 amps. 24 amps (obviously) is bad. When they disconnected the power lead to the alternator the draw went away. So they said "Bingo!"--must be an internal draw in the alternator--& put another one in (I could do that myself, as I have before, but the car was already at their garage & I was transportation-deprived). Then she was gonna sit over the weekend & see if all was well.
> 
> Haven't heard yet but as I said, here's hoping. . . .


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## Derrick (Apr 7, 2003)

92 Sinatra said:


> Well, okay: They think they got it. And my car did fire up okay today.
> 
> So. . .it looks as if it indeed was an internal alternator short.
> 
> ...


 Hey man please keep us posted with the results.I'm going thru the same problem with my alarm.With the car off and nothing on my alarm just goes off giving me a reading of a current draw somewhere.Also sometimes my auto door locks open and close on there own.


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*"Results?" Well, I hope I'm all done with this one. [Crossed fingers & toes, too.]*

It may be a few days before I really feel I can trust my car again, but if the problem was indeed an internal alternator short, I may not have anything else to report.

I'm afraid that other than the pull-fuses-find-complete-circuit rigmarole I described in an earlier post in this thread, I really can't offer much help in terms of locating an alarm fault. I don't even have an alarm or a stereo hooked into my car's electrical system these days because I've wanted to make sure that the basic harness is okay. So I'm not sure that our problems have been all that similar.



Derrick said:


> Hey man please keep us posted with the results.I'm going thru the same problem with my alarm.With the car off and nothing on my alarm just goes off giving me a reading of a current draw somewhere.Also sometimes my auto door locks open and close on there own.


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## Twiz (Aug 24, 2004)

Derrick said:


> Hey man please keep us posted with the results.I'm going thru the same problem with my alarm.With the car off and nothing on my alarm just goes off giving me a reading of a current draw somewhere.Also sometimes my auto door locks open and close on there own.


See if you can turn off the current sensing option on your security system... I had a car alarm that did that, it's unreliable and very annoying also the current sensing circuit is bound to go bad, imagine your alarm is on almost all the time, some cheap brands will use electronic parts that have +/-10 % or +/- 20 % tolerance which will set off your alarm easily since they're not accurate anymore... it'll sense the slightest voltage change. My opinion upgrade your alarm or disable the current sensing option.


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## UNISH25 (Aug 12, 2002)

92 Sinatra said:


> The Groovy guys did recommend a nifty method for running down a short circuit:
> 
> 1. Pull off your negative battery cable so the chassis is no longer grounded.
> 
> ...




I hate electrical bugs too. That is a really nice way to find a short man...those guys are smart!


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Yup, Groovy Automotive rocks!*

I prefer to do my own work, because there's only one person who will work on a car like it is their own, but the Groovy boys have done right by me.

With all the electronics & stuff in cars nowadays, you have to be very careful not to run overvoltages (say, straight off your battery) through a circuit that was not designed to handle it.




UNISH25 said:


> I hate electrical bugs too. That is a really nice way to find a short man...those guys are smart!


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## 92 Sinatra (Jul 9, 2002)

*Groovy done me right / Raised voices at Auto Zone*

Every time since I've gotten my car back from Groovy, I turn the key, the idiot lights illuminate the dasboard & my engine fires right up. I like that. Makes me feel much better. That is how it is supposed to work.

On the other hand. . . . I took the Dura-Last Gold battery that Groovy had identified as defective back to Auto Zone, and it required quite an argument to get my money back. I was pissed off. Other customers were wondering "What in hell?" Because the AZ guys put the battery on their meter and said that it was fine. I kept telling them it would not hold a charge, that I have bought tons of parts there and never demanded a refund, and I didn't give a damn what their gizmos said because I knew the battery was faulty. I mean we went around and around. I was saying "Look, I am not leaving here without my money." I don't enjoy talking to anybody that way but I was getting mad. I kept telling them to put a hygrometer on it and they said they didn't need to. Well, finally they did (very grudgingly) and you know what? Dead cells!

Moral of the story (in two parts):

1. If you live in Austin, Texas, take your car to Groovy. I've got this experiment going to see if I can get 200,000 miles out of my car. If I simply don't want to do a particular repair or I'm sick of it, the Groovy brothers are my go-to guys.

2. If you have to take a battery back to Auto Zone because it's defective, save yourself some hassle & make sure & do whatever it takes beforehand to drain that battery. Just completely discharge it. 



92 Sinatra said:


> I prefer to do my own work, because there's only one person who will work on a car like it is their own, but the Groovy boys have done right by me.
> 
> With all the electronics & stuff in cars nowadays, you have to be very careful not to run overvoltages (say, straight off your battery) through a circuit that was not designed to handle it.


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## blackmaxima88 (Mar 20, 2005)

I used to work at auto zone. my faith in their parts has taken a serious dive. I've gone through 3 auto zone alternators and 2 autozone starters in a year all in the same car! I can also rebuild alternators and starters and was shocked when I disassembled a "remanufactured" alternator right off the shelf to see that the brushes were still worn down, never replaced, the brush holder was cracked, and the voltage regulator was original and not replaced (this was on a GM Delco CS series alternator). they fix what's wrong with it, and then sell it to you at a lifetime warranty. sure they keep giving you different ones, but I'd rather put one in there and not have to worry about it. they don't replace all the parts to make it "new". it's a serious ripoff. and even though they stamp their "duralast" name on it, most of their alternators and starters are remanufactured by the same companies that reman them for other competitors (like advance). The remanufacturing is done by WorldWide Automotive.

I have no problem disclosing AZ's corporate secrets, because they screwed me over in a bad way. ever realize how much you get shafted? Auto Zone sells Bosch batteries to their commercial customers for about $30-$35 each, yet they'll charge a walk-in counter customer $80 for one. and the Bosch batteries and the Duralast batteries are the same exact thing, just a different sticker on it!

here are a few bits of information that may be of interest.
- Autozone's Bosch, Duralast and DL Gold batteries, Advance's Autocraft batteries, Sears' Diehard batteries, and Interstate batteries are ALL manufactured by the same company, Johnson Controls. They also manufacture the batteries that come OEM in Nissan cars. there are actually only 5 battery manufacturers in the USA: Johnson Controls, Exide, Douglas, East Penn/Deka, and Delphi. any brand name battery is made by one of them. the lead and sulfuric acid is essentially recycled, but I've had some brand new batteries come back defective the next day. 

also, the autozone I used to work in (the location I won't disclose) will let a battery sit on a shelf for over a year before a customer buys it. a battery loses approximately 1% of its charge each day it isn't used. three months and the battery is completely dead. also, when a battery isn't used or kept charged (for example, sitting on a shelf), a crusty buildup occurs on the internal plates that add electrical resistance to the cells and make it difficult to charge, and the battery becomes essentially useless. so if you buy a battery that's been sitting on a shelf for four months, it's a tossup as to whether or not it's fresh. but when the company manufactures the batteries, there's a date sticker somewhere on them showing the month and date it was filled and activated.

- The meters the stores use to check your battery draw a 100 amp load from the battery. to identify a defective battery, you may have to run this test 4 or 5 times in a row. A defective battery can load-test fine the first time.

- Don't count on your charge indicator light (battery light) on the dash to warn you of a bad alternator. really, the only time this light comes on is if the drivebelt breaks. it's kinda complicated explaining how this light is wired, but don't count on it to warn of a bad alternator. (and if it comes on for a bad alternator, the BRAKE warning light comes on too.) BUT, when you turn your ignition ON, you should see the charge indicator light come ON before you start the engine, just like your oil pressure light and check engine light. if your alternator light DOESN'T come on, you have an alternator problem.


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## Humble1 (Jul 8, 2005)

Good info, thanks! I just paid 80 bucks for a bosch battery from a "pep boys", wish I had knew this a week ago. Oh well. In the future...



blackmaxima88 said:


> - Don't count on your charge indicator light (battery light) on the dash to warn you of a bad alternator. really, the only time this light comes on is if the drivebelt breaks. it's kinda complicated explaining how this light is wired, but don't count on it to warn of a bad alternator. (and if it comes on for a bad alternator, the BRAKE warning light comes on too.) BUT, when you turn your ignition ON, you should see the charge indicator light come ON before you start the engine, just like your oil pressure light and check engine light. if your alternator light DOESN'T come on, you have an alternator problem.



Nice. I'm having problems with my newly acquired 94 sentra XE and I've suspected the alternator... I just checked to see if the light would come on and it didn't. Interesting. I'm going to get a new altenator in the next few days and I'll post here to see if that solves the problem. I'll post here my results to verify what you've said. Thanks alot for your post, I always suspected that bit about a core group of battery manufacturers and brand names just slapping labels on them. Cheers!


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