# Yet ANOTHER '97 KA24E Timing Issues/Rough Running



## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

Hey all!!! New to Nissan forums, looking for some help!!!

Before any flames, I've been crawling over post over post over post. Videos. Haynes manual. Twisting my own wrenches since I could hold the tools. From a '89 Samurai, to a '97 BMW, to a 2012 F150. First Nissan.

1997 Hardbody P/U 4x4, 5spd, 250k miles.

This is gonna take a minute, but I'm trying to give you guys as much info as I can.

So. Came into a mechanic job 5 miles from home. Previous mechanic put a new head and timing set in this truck, but couldn't get it running. Said he had it tracked down to an electrical issue, but gave up.

My turn. Looking in the engine bay, found some plugs disconnected. Hooked them up. Just to check it myself, I pulled the plugs and the valve cover to check the timing. Lined up the pointer on the TDC mark, only turning clockwise. Intake and exhaust closed. I would have liked the rotor a BIT more towards number 1 post, but the rotor has a WIDE outer end. Should at least fire. It did...holy CRAP something's wrong.

Pulled the cover, plugs, reset TDC. Figured I'd just turn the dist a tooth and try again. Nope.

Pulled the oil pump. Had a coworker hold the rotor while I was monkeying with the oil pump shaft. Had the dist bolts tight and in the center of the adjusting space. Probably spent a half hour turning that damn thing 3 full rotations. Finally had to have my buddy wiggle the rotor just a tiny bit. FINALLY got the shaft in and put the oil pump back in. Closer than it was before, but still not PERFECT. Within the adjustment range.

Still runs like crap. It's been sitting for probably a year, maybe bad gas. Pumped out as much as I could and put in 5 gallons of fresh fuel. Shorted across the FP relay until I had fresh fuel all the way through the filter. Still crap. Burns your eyes....WAY too rich. The RPM's swing from 500-3k but I really got to work the throttle, and it stalls out sometimes while doing this. When I DO find a spot where I can keep the throttle steady AND keep the engine running, lowest is around 1,500 with jumps to 3k. Sounds OK-ish at the 3k+ point...actually responds pretty quickly when I blip the throttle. When at the 1,500 range, it pops out both the intake AND exhaust.

Now I'm thinking bent valves. Compression test (cyl/psi after 10 rotations/after reset 10 more rotations [throttle to the floor, FP disabled]): 1/182/185, 2/162/165, 3/180/180, 4/175/175.

Pulled VC again and paid particular attention to the chain links and marks. Only one I can see is the cam gear, but it lined up...
1) Where should this link BE in relation to the head at TDC?

Used a hand vacuum pump to check the FPR-no leaks. Has a new TPS. The IAT sensor is NOT connected (wires are broken off flush with bottom of the sensor...the only code TorquePro pulls is for this sensor.) Could not find a way to test the MAF with engine OFF...do have battery voltage...and when I blow into the TB, I can see a voltage swing, but can't tell if it's 'GOOD'. Pulled vacuum line off PB booster-no effect. Pulled injector rail and shorted FP relay-no leaking injectors.

Fuel pressure. 43 with no vacuum on regulator. I use the hand pump to pull a vacuum on the FPR while the FP relay is shorted and when my FP gauge says 33 psi, my hand pump is at 21-22 in. Sometimes, the fuel pressure will bleed off, sometimes, it won't. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow. Fuel pressure builds almost instantly when power applied. Putting on the air cleaner makes no difference. Fuel cap is off...when I took the cap off to siphon out the tank, it had ALOT of vacuum in the fuel tank. So, I've left it off thinking maybe I was vacuum-locking the fuel system.

Tested each injector plug (disconnected from injector) and found no shorts. All the injectors tested 8-8.1 ohms.

I'm losing hair. Either this thing is getting too much fuel, or not enough air. No air cleaner...as much air as I can give it (PB vacuum line pulled didn't help). Manual shows FPR AFTER the injectors. Re-routed the lines to match and it wouldn't even pop. The FPR is now back to AFTER the injectors.

Ideas? Directions? I'm not against pulling the front cover, which may just be my next step.
2) Stupid question...Can the crank gear that drives the oil pump be put on backwards and drive the distributor backwards?

Grasping, I know, but that's all I have left.

McMechanic


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## jp2code (Jun 2, 2011)

Sounds like you have a timing chain that was not set correctly or an intake gasket that isn't sealing.

With the engine running and the engine fan held stationary (let it slide on the fan clutch a little while), spray some Starter Fluid around the various intake mating surfaces to see if there is an RPM change. Use short bursts, because if there is a spark you could have a quick flash fire.

Also, the ECU on these trucks will generate symptoms when they detect something wrong - like no return signal from the IACV. You could chase symptoms like these all day if the ECU is creating these conditions. The best thing to do is fix that IAC connector so that the ECU does not throw that code anymore.

Set your Haynes manual aside, and use this one:

nico: FSM/Hardbody/1997_D21_Truck/

In particular, you want the EC section (Emission Controls).

This stupid forum cuts out the site name because of some bitchy feud, so you are going to have to use the pic below to figure out the URL. Old pic, so ignore the Highlighted Section.


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## rogoman (Dec 16, 2004)

McMechanic said:


> Pulled the oil pump. Had a coworker hold the rotor while I was monkeying with the oil pump shaft. Had the dist bolts tight and in the center of the adjusting space. Probably spent a half hour turning that damn thing 3 full rotations. Finally had to have my buddy wiggle the rotor just a tiny bit. FINALLY got the shaft in and put the oil pump back in. Closer than it was before, but still not PERFECT. Within the adjustment range.
> 
> Pulled VC again and paid particular attention to the chain links and marks. Only one I can see is the cam gear, but it lined up...
> 1) Where should this link BE in relation to the head at TDC?
> ...


To properly test the operation of each fuel injector, use a NOID light test kit.

I assume the engine in your truck is a KA24E.

Testing for vacuum leaks with some type spray is not very accurate. Use a vacuum gauge for good accuracy; most auto parts stores sell vacuum gauges. To check the intake system for a vacuum leak, attach a vacuum gauge to a full vacuum source, usually somewhere on the intake manifold. With the engine fully warmed up, the reading at idle should be 18 - 20 InHg. At 3,000 RPM, it should be around 21 InHg.

If readings are under 18 InHg, check the intake manifold nuts to make sure they are tight. The gasket may have failed; spray a water mist at the gasket to see if the gauge reading changes. Also check the intake plenum bellows at the throttle body and at the MAF for cracks or loose clamps.


Here's a procedure for installing the oil pump & distributor:

Remove the distributor and the oil pump. Now you need to find Top Dead Center (TDC) for the compression stroke in order to time the ignition distributor. To find TDC, remove #1 spark plug. Have someone tap the ignition switch start position to slowly crank the motor while you put your thumb over the spark plug hole. When you feel the compression, stop. Now look down at the timing pointer at the front pulley. It should be pointing to ZERO. If not, manually turn the motor by hand clockwise or counter-clockwise until it's pointing to ZERO.

The oil pump uses a shaft to turn the distributor. Insert this shaft onto the oil pump with the punch mark on the shaft lining up with the hole on the oil pump (below gear). Install pump/shaft to block. When installed the end of the shaft will look like a "D", when looking into the distributor hole while standing at the drivers side front wheel well. Actually, it (the "D") will be more of a "11:45 o'clock" position, NOT quite "12:00"; if not, then remove, and reinstall until the above position is obtained.

Determine the #1 plug wire location on the distributor cap. Mark that location on the distributor body. Now insert the distributor into the block so that the rotor ends up pointing to the mark you put on the side of the distributor body. You now are timed close to correct; you should be able to start the motor.

Here's a procedure for setting up the cam timing:

To set the cam timing, remove all the spark plugs and manually turn the crank pulley by hand until the block timing pointer at the front pulley is pointing to the ZERO mark on the pulley. The #1 piston is now sitting at TDC. Install the cam. The keyways for the crank and cam sprockets should be at the 12 o'clock position. Now look at the lower end of the timing chain for the chain mating mark which should be at the crankshaft sprocket gear mark; 5 o'clock position. The top end of the timing chain mating (silver) mark should be at the sprocket gear mark; 3 o'clock position.


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

jp:

Thanks for the info. Funny thing, I was thinking of joining that forum too. For whatever reason, when I read your response this morning, I didn't see the part about the timing chain....

Today, I pulled the fan off. Shop is 40deg and I'm not gonna be running it long enough to overheat. Left the alt/wp belt on. Working by myself. This rig won't stay running long enough for me to get out of the truck for the starting fluid. Still, I wanted to do SOMETHING.

Checked the intake manifold bolts and they needed a little more oomph, same with the TB bolts. No change. Found the ground wire on the head (rear driver's side to body) totally loose. Tightened it-no change. Used the hand vacuum pump to keep the FP down to 30psi regardless of manifold vacuum (less fuel). No change. TPS was in the middle of it's adjustment. Going on a whim, I loosened the screws and let it rotate fully clockwise. Seemed to me the way it was, the mechanics of how it works with the throttle plate, it was telling the ECM that the throttle was part open when it was closed, dumping in more fuel. NOW I have a difference. NOW I can hold the RPMs at around 1k with maybe a 250 RPM drift either side. If I take my foot off the pedal, it dies, but now not as fast.

I was able to point a timing light at the balancer...granted, I was trying to keep it running and stable with one hand while using the timing gun in the other. I'm guessing the RPMs around 1500-2k. I could see the 20 deg mark and it was the only one I could see. That's with the dist full clockwise...like, no adjusting bolts, full clockwise. And that's where it runs the best.

Managed to hotwire the AIT sensor by wrapping a wire around the outside plastic loop and one of the inner wires (both sides, two wires), and wired that into the wiring harness (plug is destroyed so i used weather tight butt connectors). Maybe a bit less rich?  Maybe? I could hold my foot steady on the throttle and she would hover at 1k, still popping in the exhaust. And, now it sounds like half my rockers are loose.

Eff it. I'm checking that timing. AGAIN.
I wrote this down because it doesn't make sense. It may EXPLAIN some things, but doesn't make sense. None of the rockers were loose.
I rotated the crank 50 times (24 revolutions of the dist). Only two times did I get the different-colored link lined up with the mark on the cam gear. At no point did I get a repeatable pattern. Now, maybe I just gave up mathematically too soon. Maybe a Nissan is different. I've always understood the crank gear to be half the number of teeth as the cam gear...???

Each number is one rotation on the distributor/location of silver link in relation to cam gear timing mark:
1/3rd ccw
2/8th ccw-almost 180 out
3/one ccw-this is where I started over, why I wrote this down, and why 42 times
4/ON MARK
5/none
6/none
7/none
8/10th ccw
9/none
10/none
11/7th ccw
12/9th ccw
13/none
14/4th ccw
15/6th ccw
16/none
17/1 ccw
18/3 ccw
19/8 ccw
20/2 cw-yes, CW
21/ON MARK-so, next three should be none if this is the pattern
22/none
23/none
24/3rd CW-so much for my pattern
25/10 ccw

Which brings me back to that thing I said about not seeing your part regarding the timing chain. I now know, FOR A FACT, the DIST is in time with the crank. I honestly don't know what to make of the timing chain. I realize there is a hydraulic chain tensioner that doesn't hold tension while the engine isn't running. It operates via oil pressure. 2002 Grand Vitara DOHC's use the same setup. Ask me how I know. But...mathematically speaking, if the crank is half the cam, at some point, there SHOULD emerge a pattern, yes?

Is there ANY possibility that a timing set for a different, albeit close, Nissan 4cyl have mistakenly been put on this engine, and still not bent the valves? This engine is an interference engine, correct?

I have 21 links, link to link, including the links. Can someone verify this with me from a stock chain? Tooth count on the cam gear?

Oh. No CEL. Only idiot light is a blinking Air Bag light.


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

rogoman:
As to the injectors, I was looking for shorts between the two pins in the female connectors. Testing the injectors I was just making sure they were all the same resistance. Same thing I've done on other MPFI vehicles to hunt down a bad injector. Every bad injector (stuck open or closed) I have ever ran into has had a different resistance reading than the rest. I do need a NOID light set.

As per the title, yes, it's a KA24E.

I agree with you on the starting fluid to a certain extent. That's how I've always done it on pre 96 vehicles. Post 96, with OBD2, I believe, react too quickly to the addition of more fuel and adjust the fuel trims accordingly. That being said, if a vacuum leak is what is causing my headaches, I would expect it to kill the engine almost instantly when the starting fluid found an easy way in (I already HAVE way too much fuel). The way I do it on post-96 (with OBD2) is a small UNlIT propane torch and a rubber hose off the end of the burner. UN-LIT. Very little propane coming out. With the engine running, if I smell it, I turn down the knob. Use at your own risk. While watching the fuel trims in TorquePro, I can see INSTANTLY where the leak is. The Fuel Trim numbers go negative, and the engine doesn't skip a beat. It's the damndest thing!!! My whole problem is I can't keep it running AND man the water bottle/starting fluid/propane/whatever. Maybe Monday. I do have a vacuum gauge and I will be sure to hook it up before my next attempt. Yes, I have hooked my scanner up to this truck. To be honest, I haven't hooked it back up to check the fuel trim. That will happen Monday. No part of the air cleaner is currently on the truck. Open TB. MAF is in the TB, not the intake ductwork/air filter housing. MAF has a very good fit in TB. Took it out and cleaned it.

As for the oil pump/distributor timing. I know that is the 'book' process for setting the distributor. I was under the truck, by myself, for two hours effing with that oil pump/pump shaft alignment crap. Every time I came up to drop in the distributor, it was still one effing tooth off. I came at it from the top because in my mind, the relationship of the rotor, to the cap, to the crank, to the cam, is what is important. Not the oil pump/shaft alignment. I know. That's supposed to line ya right up to just drop in the distributor. I couldn't get it that way. In the end, the pointer is at 0 (TDC) and the rotor is centered on the white mark.

Timing marks. I think we were typing at the same time!!! Unfortunately, I was not the person who installed the timing set, so I cannot verify the crank marks/how they line up without pulling off the front cover. Also cannot compare new parts to old parts. 
Based on my numerous revolutions of the crank by hand...staring at those cyl 1 valves...watching the rotor line up on cyl 1 25 times...pointer on the second-from-left dot...and only getting the cam to line up TWO times with the chain? Something's not right.


Just for the record you really shouldn't turn a chain/belt driven cam setup backwards from normal rotation. Doing so puts slack in the wrong side effectively throwing off your cam/crank timing. Depending on the length of said chain/belt, could be a full tooth or more. I realize where you were talking of rotating forwards or backwards was in reference to the oil pump and distributor, not the cam. Just one of those 'things'.

One rant I have:
Getting this rig 'up to temp' is damn near impossible. Even with a 24 inch fan sucking the exhaust and blowing it out under the shop door, it still burns my eyes and gives me a headache. That whole 'up to temp' statement you see everywhere attached to any troubleshooting kindu makes me snicker. When all is good, it's not up to temp when you start it and it's 10 below zero, but it still starts and purrs. So, I "should" be able to do enough poking/prodding when it's cold to at least get some kind of idle, without making me cry. I would LOVE too see some real world, cold, MAF voltages, ECT resistances, etc. In my world, when I need to troubleshoot these electronic rigs, they CAN'T start/run, so 'up-to-temp' requirements mean nothing in those situations.
End rant.

Just remembered...in the bed of the truck was a brand-new chain guide tensioner. Still in the box...? If you installed a new timing set, wouldn't a new tensioner come with and why would you NOT use it? Assuming it goes to this truck...

Also, this time when I pulled the plugs, they weren't wet. Black, but not wet, so I must be making some headway. Checked oil level because of noisy rockers and it was perfect. Fresh oil, I put it in.

Funny side-note: About a month ago another coworker had me take a look at his buddy's 2000 Frontier. With a v6. Crank-no start. Tested things with my DVM and deemed the distributor died. Dropped in a new one and it fired right up. Easiest distributor swap I've ever done. 30 minutes. This KA24E has been the WORST timing job I've had.

McMechanic


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

And what is it with the 'can't post links' thing?!?!?! I have to go back and delete my number-signs before it will post!!!


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## jp2code (Jun 2, 2011)

Can't post links could be because you only have 4 posts. That prevents new users coming in to post porn or other spam.

Honestly, I've never gotten to look at a D21 with the KA24E engine. Mine has a V6, and I don't know anyone else living around me that owns an old Hardbody. I had buddies back in high school (talking back in the 80s) who drove these trucks, but those would have had the 8 spark plug Z24i engine.

Something sounds fishy with your timing chain setup.

For the amount of time you've put into this, I'd think it would be worth it to investigate: Pull the timing cover off to look at the timing chain, verify it is the right part, and pointed to the right location. If necessary, buy a good, name brand timing chain and tensioner. Who knows what was put in there before you got it? Cheap no-name brand parts from China typically last long enough to get past their 90 day warranty.

Some timing chain kits come with just the chain, some come with a new tensioner, some include new water pumps (easy to replace with everything off), and some include a new oil pump. My guess is whoever bought the timing chain kit also purchased a tensioner without knowing there was a tensioner in the timing chain kit.


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

Friday and Monday I spent removing the front cover and resetting the timing chain. The chain and gears looked immaculate, as did the guides. Didn't have to move any gears, so the timing was good. Installed new oil tensioner. Set dist as close as mechanically possible. For the record, with the fan removed one guy can manipulate both the oil pump and the distributor from above with ease. This morning I fired it up. Ran long enough that I could get out and monkey with the timing and the TPS, while running the throttle. Better but not there. Torque showing +25% on the fuel trims. Vacuum gauge in-line with the FPR only pulled 10" of vacuum.

McGyver FTW today!!!

Nod to you, JP!!!

Used uTube, a metal paint can, $16 of hardware store fittings, charcoal, and cardboard to make my own $1,000 smoke generator...for finding vacuum leaks. Found four. 

The TB gasket is like what I'd expect to see in the middle of a 4bbl carb...but needs to be a circle. Picture a 4-leaf clover-shaped gasket where there should be a full circle. I took a pic, but I don't think I can post it up yet. Got the right one on it's way.

Correct gasket NAPA p/n: FPG 60861
One that is installed NAPA p/n: FPG MS95472---Curious question: Does anyone know if the actual intake gasket pictured looks like the correct one? If the TB gasket was the wrong part and still got installed....I verified this kit was purchased for this truck....right along with the new head.

My problem now is: I cannot...not NAPA, not Rock, not Bay...find the gasket that goes between the TB adapter plate and the intake. This adapter feeds the EVAP system, best I can tell from that FSM. The mushroom-looking things on the passenger fender. This gasket is a thin, rubber-coated metal gasket with raised crush areas which guide the vacuum to the EVAP hose connector. 

To be textually clear---
---Throttle Body---
---gasket (wrong one)---<There's your non-sealing intake gasket JP
---adapter plate---
---gasket (one I cant find)---
---intake manifold---

Since I cannot locate this gasket, my only option is to use a bit of 02 sensor-safe RTV on both sides of this gasket. Especially since I'm reusing this for at least a third time. Yay? Nay?
What would be the harm in leaving this adapter out and NOT connecting that 3/8" line feeding the EVAP stuff? If I could lose that adapter, then all I need is the gasket I ordered as it would seal the TB to the intake.

While I'm this deep, I'm also replacing every single inch of vacuum line. One. By. One.

Thought maybe it's a Cali rig. Neither NAPA nor Rock have a listing for a Cali D21. Non-US/CAN, US only regional options.

Thoughts? Ideas? Questions?

McMechanic


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

Have you tried seeing if the gasket is available through Nissan? Try these links:

https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/par...hamber.html?Filter=(2=KA24E)&Diagram=163_A001

and

https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/par...nifold.html?Filter=(2=KA24E)&Diagram=140_A001

It looks like the gaskets for the adapter plate are at the second link. You can search for parts by VIN # to be sure of the correct part number. You could also fabricate a gasket using gasket paper from the local auto parts store and an exacto knife or razor blade.


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

smj:

THANK you!!!!

Nissan p/n: 14032-8B001
Interchanges to NAPA p/n: FPG 61470. $5. Just ordered it!!!


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## jp2code (Jun 2, 2011)

There is an old fart on another forum who brags about making all of his own gaskets.

He places a piece of cardboard over the part he needs a gasket for, then slowly taps around the outline of it with a little hammer to cut the part.

After his "home made gasket" is ready, he says he applies brown RTV to both sides of the cardboard before putting the part back on.


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

That's some funny shut right there!!! I did the same thing for the PVC and the Thermostat Bypass Plate on the Timing Cover-but I used gasket material.

I just watched a uTube video last night where a guys ran a mower on vegetable oil for an hour under a load with no detriment to the internals. Now, I wouldn't try to use VO in place of 10w30. But, if that's all I have? Dump it in.


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## McMechanic (Feb 9, 2018)

Update:

Got all those vacuum lines replaced. Got the new TB gaskets in. She fired right up!!!! NO MORE POPPING!!!

Still could use some input.

Fuel trims showed -15 to -20% at an idle. When at 2,500, they hover between -3 to +3%. LTFT was in the +18-20%.
Disconnected the battery for 15 minutes.
Now, idle FT is -3 to +3%, LTFT is at 0. Took it for a spin around the yard...maybe 10 minutes, all 1st gear...up into the 4k range. Pull back up to the shop and it sounds like some of the rockers have loosened up. Stethoscope verified this. Shut it off and got online. Found the various fixes for the hydraulic lifters. Truck was good and warm, but only ran it for maybe 15 minutes. Ran it for another 15 minutes (around the yard). Now it sounds like even MORE rockers are loose. Pulled it back into the shop and called it a day.

I'm leaning towards:
1: Clogged-up lifters.
I can only verify that new rockers have not been purchased.
2: Thick oil.
I did fill it with dino 10w30. I have now put 10 quarts of fresh oil in this engine. Last thing I checked yesterday was the oil level. Top mark and brand new.
3: A failing oil pump/clogged pickup screen.
Previous mechanic said he had to pull the engine to replace the head; best I can visually say is it looks like the oil pan gasket was replaced.

I'm going to do some searching for an oil pressure testing location...maybe I can rig up an old mechanical oil pressure gauge?
I'm also going to do another smoke test. While replacing those 1/8" lines, I found the 5/16" line from the EGR(?) not connected. Might still be a leak somewhere.

Oh. Using Torque, I adjusted the TPS until it read 0% at idle. Idle was high at 900-1000. Set timing via timing light to 10deg BTDC.

She runs all by herself, albeit rough.

McMechanic


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