# No rear brakes problem??



## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

so I bought my 1991 4x4 a few months ago. The brakes weren't all that great. It just didn't feel right. so i jacked up the rear end and put it in gear and hit the brakes, and the rear wheels are still moving. I knew something was wrong before because when I would stop it just felt like the front brakes were taking most of the load of stopping the truck. has anyone had this problem? I was gonna bleed the brakes starting with the rear today but when I went to loosen the bleeder screw it just broke off because it was so rusted. I'm thinking i'm gonna have to have the whole rear end rebuilt and new brake lines run. any help would be appreciated.


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## Scott_T (May 15, 2011)

did you look in your reservoir to see if half the fluid was gone? the rear brakes on my 93 went out when a line rusted and burst. I had to replace all the lines from the cab back and ended up putting in new hydraulics cause the bleeders broke off like yours did too.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

Scott_T said:


> did you look in your reservoir to see if half the fluid was gone? the rear brakes on my 93 went out when a line rusted and burst. I had to replace all the lines from the cab back and ended up putting in new hydraulics cause the bleeders broke off like yours did too.


Sounds like im gonna have to do the same as you. How much did all of the replacement cost? Did you take it to a shop or do it yourself?


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

Hate to point out the obvious, but did you happen to try adjusting the rear brakes?


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

smj999smj said:


> Hate to point out the obvious, but did you happen to try adjusting the rear brakes?


I'm not even sure how to adjust the brakes. How do you do that? And yes the reservoir is full of fluid. I've never had to adjust brakes on any car. Another thing is that all the parts are pretty rusted. So I'll more than likely replace everything mentioned above.


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

The rear brakes have "self-adjusters" which are supposed to turn the adjuster every time you back up, but it's not a perfect system is doesn require periodic maintenance. There should be an oval-shaped, rubber plug on the back side of the brake backing plate (if someone hasn't lost it). Remove the plug (if present) and use a "brake spoon" or flat blade screwdriver to turn the self-adjuster; it should only turn one-way. Turn the wheel while adjusting and stop when you feel a slight drag on the wheel. Do not over-adjust or you can cause the brakes to overheat. If you do need to loosen the adjuster, you'll have to get another, skinny screwdriver to push the self-adjuster lever off of the self-adjuster in order to turn it. You should always adjust the rear brakes before bleeding the system or adjusting the parking brake cable. If the brakes are really rusty, I would remove the drum for inspection prior to adjusting them and make sure the self-adjusters aren't seized and everything is in good order. If there is any sort of ridge on the drum, it will make it very difficult to get the drum off after you've adjusting the brakes.


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## Scott_T (May 15, 2011)

smj999smj said:


> The rear brakes have "self-adjusters" which are supposed to turn the adjuster every time you back up, but it's not a perfect system is doesn require periodic maintenance.


I might be wrong but I think they adjust by hand brake action.


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## Scott_T (May 15, 2011)

asianstyle said:


> Sounds like im gonna have to do the same as you. How much did all of the replacement cost? Did you take it to a shop or do it yourself?


I did it myself. For the brake lines I got a tubing bender, flaring tool and a roll of brake line. Removing and replacing the hydraulics just took normal tools. I'd never made brake lines before but by the 3rd one I was an expert. Of course I flared one without putting the nut on and had to cut it off and restart. I dont recall how much everything cost but I'm pretty sure the whole deal was less than $100.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

so i found my problem. so i checked out my rear brake lines and noticed that the line was totally broke in half, meaning no connection to any brake fluid what so ever. so gonna have to run new line and go ahead and replace the two rear brake cylinders. anyone ever do the brake line themselves? how hard is it to replace from front to rear?


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

Depending on how bad the line is, you may be able to just plumb in a new section, but you'll need a tubing cutter, a double-flare tool and some fittings, which should all be available at your local auto parts store. If you're replacing the whole line, you may still need the double-flare kit and tubing cutter. A tubing bender makes the job easier. It takes a little practice. You can...or used to be able to...order the complete line from Nissan, but the shipping costs were astronomical! You should still adjust the rear brakes prior to bleeding. And, yes, using the parking brake also works the self-adjusters, but periodic, manual adjustment should also be performed. I usually due mine every 30,000 miles on pickups. My 97 HB still has the original rear brake shoes after 200,000 miles and still have about 30% left on them.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

anyone know where to purchase a new load sensor valve for the brakes? I checked that connection to find out that the line that comes from the valve to the rear was also rusted and broke in half. so i'm thinking I could replace the valve if i can find one, new brake line from valve to the rear and new brake cylinders and I'll be back to normal. I checked on the web and cant find where to purchase a new valve. any ideas?


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Load sensing valves are very expensive. Replace the lines that need to be replaced, but don't replace the LSV as it's probably not defective.

Brake cylinders are relatively cheap. Replace those, adjust your rear brakes (if needed, replace the brake shoes) bleed the brakes and you'll be good to go. 

Start soaking the front wheels' bleeder nipples with a good penetrating fluid (not WD-40) as you'll need to bleed them. If the rear wheel bleeder nipples sheared off, the front might, too.


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Ooops, almost forgot. Have you pulled the rear brake drums off yet? They'll have to come off and then you can do a little maintenance to the brake components. 

Pulling the drums is pretty straight forward.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

Grug said:


> Load sensing valves are very expensive. Replace the lines that need to be replaced, but don't replace the LSV as it's probably not defective.
> 
> Brake cylinders are relatively cheap. Replace those, adjust your rear brakes (if needed, replace the brake shoes) bleed the brakes and you'll be good to go.
> 
> Start soaking the front wheels' bleeder nipples with a good penetrating fluid (not WD-40) as you'll need to bleed them. If the rear wheel bleeder nipples sheared off, the front might, too.


Thanks for the advice. Yeah i will replace the line and brake cylinders first and hopefully that will fix my problem. The front bleeders are good.


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## Scott_T (May 15, 2011)

Grug said:


> Pulling the drums is pretty straight forward.


yeah, if you've got a big ass sledge hammer to brake them loose.


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Scott_T said:


> yeah, if you've got a big ass sledge hammer to brake them loose.


Well, the threaded holes in the drums work great for turning the drum off the hub. I've never had a problem pulling the drums using this system. Not sure why more auto manufacturers don't use it.

There is a chance you might score up the pads, but there's probably a good chance the pads will need to be changed anyway.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

Grug said:


> Ooops, almost forgot. Have you pulled the rear brake drums off yet? They'll have to come off and then you can do a little maintenance to the brake components.
> 
> Pulling the drums is pretty straight forward.


yeah i pulled one side and it's pretty rusted in there, gonna have to clean it up while i'm there.


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Take the adjusting star component apart and use some type of anti-seize product on it (especially the threads). You wanna' make sure that it can be easily adjusted once everything is back together.

Also, check your drums for deep scoring (depending on the shape your shoes were in). The drums might have to be shaved or, worst case, replaced.

Good luck, man!


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

Went to a junk yard and got some brake parts for cheap. Went ahead and got a load sensing valve, some brake lines two brake cylinders and a steering wheel for $20. One question. When bending new brake lines do you have to follow the exact as factory or can it deviate a little bit?


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

If it were me, I wouldn't put used brake cylinders or lines on my truck. I also think your original LSV is probably not defective. In fact, I think the used LSV has a greater chance of being bad as it's been laying around a boneyard for awhile. Just my two cents, though.


When you mount the lines, try to follow the original path as much as possible. But from a mechanical point of view, you can deviate as much as you like. Don't kink the lines when you bend them! Also, make sure that the lines are secured in a way that they're not gonna' move (or come into contact with something that's moving). In some places, vehicle inspections dictate strict placements of lines.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

The used lines look really good. Better than mine that were rusted to hell. And my LSV probably isn't defective but thought I might a well grab one since it was cheap. Another question. When I go to bleed the brakes how exactly do I do the rears? Do I do it from the valve or from the rear wheels. Or both. Because they both have bleeder valves


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

In the process of doing all this right now. Going to the store to get brake lines, fittings, tube bender, cutters and brake fluid. Wish me luck.


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## Scott_T (May 15, 2011)

Grug said:


> Well, the threaded holes in the drums work great for turning the drum off the hub. I've never had a problem pulling the drums using this system. Not sure why more auto manufacturers don't use it.
> 
> There is a chance you might score up the pads, but there's probably a good chance the pads will need to be changed anyway.


mine was seriously rusted up. I broke a couple bolts before I gave that up and used the sledge.


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Scott_T said:


> mine was seriously rusted up. I broke a couple bolts before I gave that up and used the sledge.



Yeah, I remember on my '93 it was slow going. I filled the holes with penetrating fluid and started a bolt in; turning it a little then backing it off a little...baby steps. 

On my '97, it went a lot smoother. In both cases, the '93 and '97, I was able to push the drums off using the bolts and the brake shoes ended up being just fine (was able to re-use them).

That being said, I did give the drums the odd crack with my baby sledge to unfreeze them. 

"There's nothing like a good piece of hickory"
Clint Eastwood (Pale Rider)


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

Update: so i ran the new brake lines to the rear wheels, installed the load sensing valve, both rear brake cylinders and bled the sensing valve and all 4 corners. and still have a problem. before, the front brakes worked by themselves, not the greatest but they worked. now with the new rear brakes lines and brake cylinders installed I have rear brakes again. but I have hardly any brake pressure at all. when I bleed the passenger side front wheel I can't seem to get the air bubbles out of that wheel. all the other are fine. What can cause this. all the lines are all secure and no leaks. do i have a master cylinder gone bad or something. Not sure where to go from here. please help.


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

How many times have you bled each wheel? You may have more air in the system than you think. 

However, since the brakes never really worked right since you bought the truck (your original post)...the problem might be larger than air trapped in the system. You might have master cylinder issues.

Did the LSV have a bleeder nipple on it? Are your rear brakes adjusted? If the rear brakes are significantly out of adjustment, bleeding them won't help.

I'm gonna' toss this out there...Did the previous owner do any brake work? Were the front calipers replaced? (Do they look 'new'?)


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

I bled each wheel about 5 times. the LSV did have a bleeder valve on it. I'm not sure how to adjust the rear brakes. The front brakes look pretty new. pads are still thick. calipers don't look new. and this may be a stupid question but would one wheel with air in it cause the whole brake system to go bad and have no pressure? maybe it is a master cylinder problem. but why would it work before I ran new rear brake lines? even if I messed something up when i ran the new rear brake lines(which i don't think I did) it shouldn't effect my front brakes right? maybe I need to bleed the front brakes even more times. maybe there is more air in their than I thought. i don't think it is the brake booster because I searched how to test it and they said that if it were bad then the brake pedal would be very hard to press.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

So I took the drums off today and turned the truck on and applied pressure to the brake. I watched the rear driver side brake as the wheel cylinder pushed the brakes out and when fully depressed there was fluid shooting from the brake cylinder. So I'm assuming that is my problem. Gonna buy a new one instead of junkyard parts. I also did the test on the master cylinder where you plug the holes and press the pedal down and if it has a hard pedal then it's good. And it was good so I can rule that out. I'll keep An update


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm not exactly sure of what you described. Did you push the brake pedal while the drum was off? If you did, that might have 'sprung' your brake cylinder (creating a leak).

Either way, used brake parts are not a good idea (especially cylinders, brake shoes and lines).

If there's any air at all in the system, it will give you a spongy pedal.

Make sure your rear brakes are fully adjusted (especially if your shoes are worn). Some of the pick-ups had self-adjusting rear brakes (that didn't work real well unless everything under the drum was in good working order). In theory, you pulled the parking brake on and off and your brakes were adjusted. It works on my truck...but I had to go into the rear drums and do a bunch of maintenance.

Whew!


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

Wheel cylinders are typically cheap and rebuild kits are even cheaper; both are better options than used wheel cylinders. Never depress the brake pedal without have the rear drum(s) installed. You can check their operation by turning the drum or wheel by hand while someone depresses and releases the brake pedal. When bleeding the brakes, it's important to follow the correct procedure. 

Bleeding procedure: 

CAUTION: 


- Carefully monitor brake fluid level at master cylinder during bleeding operation. 
- If master cylinder is suspected to have air inside, bleed air from master cylinder first. 
- Fill reservoir with new brake fluid DOT 3. Make sure it is full at all times while bleeding air out of system. 
- Place a container under master cylinder to avoid spillage of brake fluid. 
- Rear Wheel Anti-Lock Brake system: Before bleeding air, be sure to turn ignition switch "OFF" and disconnect battery ground cable and actuator connector. 

BLEEDING ORDER 


- LSV air bleeder (if equipped). 
- Left rear brake 
- Right rear brake. 
- Left front brake. 
- Right front brake 
- ABS actuator. 

Connect a transparent vinyl tube to air bleeder valve. 
Fully depress brake pedal several times. 
With Brake pedal depressed, open air bleeder valve to release air. 
Close air bleeder valve. 
Release brake pedal slowly. 
Repeat steps 2 through 5 until clear brake fluid comes out of air bleeder valve. 
Tighten air air bleeder to the specified torque. 7-9 Nm (61-78 in lb).

*NOTE: If the LSV is replaced or the bracket position is changed, the LSV is supposed to be adjusted using a weight of 221 lbs. placed in the bed over the rear axle and using dual brake pressure gauges to adjust per the FSM procedure. If you just replaced the LSV itself, you're probably ok, but if the bracket was moved on the rear, it should be checked and adjusted, if necessary.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

i learned my lesson with the junkyard parts. I ended up buying a new brake cylinder and realized that the one from the junkyard was too small. the correct one was way bigger and that is where my problem is I hope. installed one brake cylinder tonight with the new one and will do the other one tomorrow and then bleed the brakes and hopefully i will be all fixed up. thanks for helping out everyone. I will let you know how it goes.


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## asianstyle (May 19, 2011)

Update. Installed everything and bled brakes and I have brakes now. Finally!!! Thanks again for all the help


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Sounds great, man! Good job!

As far as wheel cylinders go, the brake components were bigger on the 4WD than on the 2WD. So, most of those parts are not interchangeable.

Anyways, glad to hear you can stop again.

Cheers!
Grug


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