# synthetic oil is a noh noh.



## ak47m203 (Apr 24, 2005)

i went to two nissan service and they both refuse using synthetic oil in my truck. they say it's useless, expensive etc. my dealer charge me nothing for my 1000mile service because i have a customer care card. and that will cost me 145 in other nissan service. they use 10-40 oil. can i just change the oil by my self without them knowing im using synthetic oil. i mean whenever they change my oil i will change(synthetic) it again the next day i know there is a sensor whenever you change your oil.


----------



## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

o wow...bror jace is going to have a fit when he hears this. as far as oil, ive been using chevron supreme because it is essentially as good as the 'good' synthetics yet it is 2 bucks a quart.


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

ak47m203 said:


> i went to two nissan service and they both refuse using synthetic oil in my truck. they say it's useless, expensive etc. my dealer charge me nothing for my 1000mile service because i have a customer care card. and that will cost me 145 in other nissan service. they use 10-40 oil. can i just change the oil by my self without them knowing im using synthetic oil. i mean whenever they change my oil i will change(synthetic) it again the next day i know there is a sensor whenever you change your oil.


More proof my theory that dealers are ignorant, arrogant, uselessness (want to start a list?). I remember when synthetics first came out - yep, I'm that old  - NASCAR banned their use as an unfair advantage because they flow easier and reduce friction better than non-synthetics. In street cars there are other advantages.

Do you also intend to change the filter and the 1/2 quart of oil in it?
Why do you want to hide it from them? It is your car, isn't it?
And what sensor are you referring to?


----------



## Reverendbiker (Jan 29, 2005)

ak47m203 said:


> i went to two nissan service and they both refuse using synthetic oil in my truck. they say it's useless, expensive etc. my dealer charge me nothing for my 1000mile service because i have a customer care card. and that will cost me 145 in other nissan service. they use 10-40 oil. can i just change the oil by my self without them knowing im using synthetic oil. i mean whenever they change my oil i will change(synthetic) it again the next day i know there is a sensor whenever you change your oil.


Change dealers, immediately if not sooner. There is no sensor that tells when your oil is changed, and if the VQ40 engine in your Pathy is the same as the VQ40 engine in my Frontier, the dealer is using the wrong viscosity oil. 5w-30 is called for unless you live in the Mohave desert; 10w-40 is way too heavy and will just cost you gas mileage.


----------



## patrick39 (May 24, 2005)

Reverendbiker said:


> Change dealers, immediately if not sooner. There is no sensor that tells when your oil is changed, and if the VQ40 engine in your Pathy is the same as the VQ40 engine in my Frontier, the dealer is using the wrong viscosity oil. 5w-30 is called for unless you live in the Mohave desert; 10w-40 is way too heavy and will just cost you gas mileage.



Reverendbiker is right, your dealer should use 5w-30 and the manual doesn't say that syn. oil cannot be used in the Pathy. So, I don't understand why your dealer refused to use syn. oil..... maybe they don't carry syn. oil at all? 

Did you talk to the service manager? If he still insists to use reg. oil, then look for another dealer or start changing the oil yourself. I am sure everyone here can do a better oil change than the dealers!


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

patrick39 said:


> ...I am sure everyone here can do a better oil change than the dealers!


 :thumbup: If for no other reason than we have a vested interest when working on our own vehicles. :cheers:


----------



## ak47m203 (Apr 24, 2005)

i think they are not ignorant they are aware that using a synthetic will prolong you car's life and they don't like that, they want something to do(repair) with you car. 10w 40 is thick for me i will change it to mobil 1 5w 30. with regards to sensor im not sure about it, i know i've seen that in one forum that whenever you drain your oil the ecu can sense that and it will be recorded in it's history but im not sure if it is availabe to nissan cars. im also thinking this oil during summer it's so hot here 95degress.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Truck_SUV_5W-40.aspx

and during winter.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-30.aspx


----------



## callen (Jul 31, 2005)

*ecu sensor*

If they do have an issue with the oil just provide your own maybe thats why? They spend near nothing on the bulk oil they buy so having to spend $15 a bottle might piss them off. Also remind them it can't be black magic if nissan calls for synth in gear boxes. And still If they wont and there is such a sensor just disconnect both battery terminals, touch both terminal wires together and let it sit for about an hour hehe no more ecu record. Only issue I can see is it might run shitty for 20minutes of driving as it relearns the motor.


----------



## jetmechG550 (Jun 12, 2005)

Tell that to BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc... All those fine pieces of German engineering run synth. The oil change on my 3 series is 15K. It comes out cleaner than regular oil does at 3K.


----------



## barnkim (Jul 19, 2005)

*What?*

I heard from my dealer that 5W-30 synthetic is perfectly fine to run in 05 pathfinders.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

I like finding a thread like this ... and finding that most if not all of the important points have been covered by others. 

To review a bit, there's little difference between a Group II+ mineral oil (Pennzoil, Chevron, etc ...) and 'synthetics,' most of which are Group III mineral oil ... the same petroleum just processed (hydrocracked) a little longer.

Mobil 1, Schaeffer, Amsoil still make PAO (Group IV) synthetic oils ... and they are a lot better than they were a couple decades ago when they were known to cause leaks in engines already inclined to do so.

NEO and Red Line Oil are Group V ester synthetiocs. Good stuff, but I'm not sure they are necessary considering the higher cost.

Even with the Group IV & V synthetics, I'm not convinced they are any better at preventing wear in the first 4,000 miles than Chevron Supreme or Pennzoil conventional oils. UOAs support this. In addition to the base oil, there's the additive package which plays a key role ... and the variations between the oil brands are substantial.

In short, *AK47M203*, your dealership techs are a bunch of idiots when it comes to oil. Some Nissan manuals (like my SpecV's) specifically call for a mineral oil ... but that is merely a CYA maneuver so someone won't use a synthetic and leave it in for 25,000 miles. 

My current favorite oil happens to be Schaeffer Supreme 7000 synthetic (PAO) blend in 5W-30. However this fall I'll be changing my oil and using Chevron Supreme just to get me into the beginning of winter when I'm gonna switch back to a 5W-30 synthetic blend again.


----------



## Ironchild (May 11, 2005)

Hey hey now don't be knocking dealers..........I work for one. One bad apple (or two or three) can't ruin it for the rest of us. Believe it or not there are reputable honest dealers around. As far as the synthetic oil goes, we use it just as much as we use 5W-30 bulk petroleum based oil. There is nothing said from Nissan on the type of oil used only weight. Someone is either blowing smoke up your tailpipe or they are just plain in the wrong. Remember opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.... and has the right to state it. Doesn't mean it is right or wrong but take it as a grain of salt. Everyone comes from different backgrounds of automobiles and has different ideas and opinions on them. Some right, some wrong. If you have any doubts about your dealer/mechanic, get a second opinion or try a private shop. Synthetic is fine to run and yeah it's better for the engine in most cases. Just pay attention to the weight. Take it for what it's worth...........=)



barnkim said:


> I heard from my dealer that 5W-30 synthetic is perfectly fine to run in 05 pathfinders.


----------



## ak47m203 (Apr 24, 2005)

and i wonder why they put 10w-40, im not living in saudi arabia. 




Ironchild said:


> Hey hey now don't be knocking dealers..........I work for one. One bad apple (or two or three) can't ruin it for the rest of us. Believe it or not there are reputable honest dealers around. As far as the synthetic oil goes, we use it just as much as we use 5W-30 bulk petroleum based oil. There is nothing said from Nissan on the type of oil used only weight. Someone is either blowing smoke up your tailpipe or they are just plain in the wrong. Remember opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.... and has the right to state it. Doesn't mean it is right or wrong but take it as a grain of salt. Everyone comes from different backgrounds of automobiles and has different ideas and opinions on them. Some right, some wrong. If you have any doubts about your dealer/mechanic, get a second opinion or try a private shop. Synthetic is fine to run and yeah it's better for the engine in most cases. Just pay attention to the weight. Take it for what it's worth...........=)


----------



## srt4n8 (Jul 17, 2005)

Reverendbiker said:


> Change dealers, immediately if not sooner. There is no sensor that tells when your oil is changed, and if the VQ40 engine in your Pathy is the same as the VQ40 engine in my Frontier, the dealer is using the wrong viscosity oil. 5w-30 is called for unless you live in the Mohave desert; 10w-40 is way too heavy and will just cost you gas mileage.


I live in the mohave desert, doest that mean I shouldnt replace my oil with synthetic?? 

I run synthetic in my SRT-4 but thats cause its turbo charged.


----------



## ak47m203 (Apr 24, 2005)

man how's srt4 i like it,do you have pictures in cardomain? im also a dodgeboy.net member. sad things is they are phasing it out and i don't know what will be the replacement. i want to buy one with in 2 years, got to buy house next year and i just bought a 05 pathy. i want to buy a brand new with 2 to 3 years.




srt4n8 said:


> I live in the mohave desert, doest that mean I shouldnt replace my oil with synthetic??
> 
> I run synthetic in my SRT-4 but thats cause its turbo charged.


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

srt4n8 said:


> I live in the mohave desert, doest that mean I shouldnt replace my oil with synthetic?? .


Fact is synthetics are better in colder and hotter temperatures. Their viscosity doesn't change from cold to hot as much as petro oils. Do a google and read about them, best are the independant articles - not as much marketing hype. 
If you do the extended oil change, I would suggest you still keep an eye on the quantity and quality of the oil. Some engines tend to contaminate the oil, mainly with carbon, faster than others. The blacker it gets is a sign of this. You can also put a drop of oil on some (IIRC) titration paper and look at the sediments. Or, if you are real serious, change the filter and have the old one analyzed (somewhere I read this costs $20).


----------



## msubullyfan (Jul 24, 2005)

Ironchild said:


> Hey hey now don't be knocking dealers..........I work for one. One bad apple (or two or three) can't ruin it for the rest of us.



Unfortunately, I think a better analogy for dealer service departments would be... "a few good apples in a barrel of rotten ones." I've been involved with about 10-12 dealer service departments in my life, and I only felt like I could trust 2 of them. The rest would try to squeeze a nickel out of me any way they could.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

I'll agree with *Animal* about the temperature extremes. Usually, it's cold that most people encounter where synthetics really are an advantage.

This is why I often change types of oil seasonally.

You would have to live in a place like the Mojave desert ... or along the southernmost 20% of the United States to really worry about extreme heat. 

If you like topics on oil and all sorts of lubrication, there's only one site which covers it all:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi


----------



## patrick39 (May 24, 2005)

msubullyfan said:


> Unfortunately, I think a better analogy for dealer service departments would be... "a few good apples in a barrel of rotten ones." I've been involved with about 10-12 dealer service departments in my life, and I only felt like I could trust 2 of them. The rest would try to squeeze a nickel out of me any way they could.



same here, most of the service departments are very bad.... the advisors are not "friendly" and they treat the customers like idiots and their responses to our questions and problems are always the same : 'we cannot duplicate the problem', 'they are all the same', 'your vehicle is within the manufacturer's spec.' etc..... 

So next time I buy a car, I will sit in the service department of a dealer for half an hour and try to observe their "attitude" towards the customers.... coz I don't want to deal with those [email protected]#$ everytime I take my car for service.


----------



## ak47m203 (Apr 24, 2005)

actually it's true they think that they are the only guys who knows about cars and the customers are dumb. some of them are too cocky like the guy in one of our nissan dealer here im not talking to him and he just said synthetic are waste of money etc etc. i told him it's my money and i can burn it the way i want. if i will be paying 25 dollars for oil every oil change it's 0.0083 dollars/mile in every 3000 miles i changed. it's not expensive at all. 

actually i will change it again tomorrow i'll use mobil 1 EP 5w- 30 i chose it because these formulations with the Advanced SuperSyn System contain 50 percent more SuperSyn, 36 percent more anti-wear additives, and 37 percent more cleaning agents than the current Mobil 1. but i will change it every 3000 miles not 15 thousand as MB 1 EP can be.

i have a friend and he is oil change manaic he change oil every 1000 miles and his 1987 pajero sounds like brand new. 



patrick39 said:


> same here, most of the service departments are very bad.... the advisors are not "friendly" and they treat the customers like idiots and their responses to our questions and problems are always the same : 'we cannot duplicate the problem', 'they are all the same', 'your vehicle is within the manufacturer's spec.' etc.....
> 
> So next time I buy a car, I will sit in the service department of a dealer for half an hour and try to observe their "attitude" towards the customers.... coz I don't want to deal with those [email protected]#$ everytime I take my car for service.


----------



## scotts03le (Jan 29, 2004)

*some dealers are honest*

not all service guys are like that. I had my truck in yesterday for an oil change, and was debating on doing the 30K service stuff. I gave him the list and asked about changing all the oils, and he said he would have it checked out and call me. about 12:30 I got called, and was told, everything looks good, except your transmission fluid is a bit broken down and you got some carbon deposits in your throtte body. He aid the other stuff can wait till 50K or so. I asked about using synthetics, he said that would be fine, but it would be cheaper to bring in my own oils. But, I ended up sticking with Matic D. if i call far enough in advance, I alwasy get a loaner car. in the meantime, my truck runs great!


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

scotts03le said:


> not all service guys are like that. I had my truck in yesterday for an oil change, and was debating on doing the 30K service stuff. I gave him the list and asked about changing all the oils, and he said he would have it checked out and call me. about 12:30 I got called, and was told, everything looks good, except your transmission fluid is a bit broken down and you got some carbon deposits in your throtte body. He aid the other stuff can wait till 50K or so. I asked about using synthetics, he said that would be fine, but it would be cheaper to bring in my own oils. But, I ended up sticking with Matic D. if i call far enough in advance, I alwasy get a loaner car. in the meantime, my truck runs great!


The point is your's is the exception rather than the norm.


----------



## scotts03le (Jan 29, 2004)

I hear ya on that, and feel pretty lucky.


----------



## srt4n8 (Jul 17, 2005)

ak47m203 said:


> man how's srt4 i like it,do you have pictures in cardomain? im also a dodgeboy.net member. sad things is they are phasing it out and i don't know what will be the replacement. i want to buy one with in 2 years, got to buy house next year and i just bought a 05 pathy. i want to buy a brand new with 2 to 3 years.



Good luck finding a new SRT-4 in 2 or 3 years. They are getting rid of the neon and bringin in something new. Go sign up on SRTforums.com and read all about it. I do have a car domain site, but I forget what it is.

Next SRT car Im gonna get is gonna be the 300C SRT-8..... wowsa


----------



## srt4n8 (Jul 17, 2005)

:thumbup: :hal:


Animal said:


> Fact is synthetics are better in colder and hotter temperatures. Their viscosity doesn't change from cold to hot as much as petro oils. Do a google and read about them, best are the independant articles - not as much marketing hype.
> If you do the extended oil change, I would suggest you still keep an eye on the quantity and quality of the oil. Some engines tend to contaminate the oil, mainly with carbon, faster than others. The blacker it gets is a sign of this. You can also put a drop of oil on some (IIRC) titration paper and look at the sediments. Or, if you are real serious, change the filter and have the old one analyzed (somewhere I read this costs $20).



I know, I was kinda being a smart a$$ about it.


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

srt4n8 said:


> :thumbup: :hal:
> 
> 
> I know, I was kinda being a smart a$$ about it.


Sorry I missed your humor. Mine gets missed all the time as well. We smart a$$e$ are so misunderstood.


----------



## nsew45 (Aug 7, 2005)

I just changed my Xterra oil to Mobil 1 Truck & SUV. It is 5W-40. It is the same price as the other Mobil 1 synthetics. I do a lot of driving and running around in it. 3500 miles in six weeks. 

The dealer, "Make Ready" guy, I went through recommended synthetic oil. Even recommended going to 7500 mile intervals with synthetic. 

I put in a Fumoto valve, so I will take a sample in 3500 miles from now and have it analyzed to see if going to 7500 makes sense.


----------



## jetmechG550 (Jun 12, 2005)

Funny thing heard today, took my 05 Pathi in for the VDC programming and since I will be headed out of town for a few days I asked them to do the first oil change on the truck. I asked for synthetic and the service writer tells me there's really no advantage to syth oil and Nissan doesn't recommend it. It took all I had not to laugh. Since my travel schedule for work is pretty slammed and I had a coupon for oil change I said go ahead and do it but next one will be a switch to Castrol for sure.


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

jetmechG550 said:


> I asked for synthetic and the service writer tells me there's really no advantage to syth oil and Nissan doesn't recommend it. It took all I had not to laugh.


If you want to have some fun with them, next time ask to see the TSB that states not to use synthetics. Of course, literally speaking, "not recommending" is different than "recommending against", so if Nissan doesn't specifically say to use synthetics they do not recommend it.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*nsew45*: _"I do a lot of driving and running around in it. 3500 miles in six weeks. The dealer ... even recommended going to 7500 mile intervals with synthetic ... I will take a sample in 3500 miles from now and have it analyzed to see if going to 7500 makes sense."_

Even with the preceeding M1 formulation ... or any true (Group IV & V) synthetic oil, using it less than 5,000 miles before draining is simply a waste. Most will hold up to 7,500 with no signs of increased wear.

And don't laugh at folks who stick with "conventional" oil. Using top formulations from Pennzoil, Chevron and Schaeffer, you will see incredibly low wear for the first 2,500 - 4,000 miles. It's all about the additive packages. In this short time span, synthetics will NOT SHOW ANY LOWER WEAR. 

It's the additive packages which allow 5W-20 oils to show great results ... even in some heavy-duty applications like trucks driven in Arizona.

The 'conventional' oils I mentioned above all use a highly processed Group II+ mineral base oil which has been hydrocracked to make it much more uniform than the Group I mineral oils of just a few years ago.

And since most mass-market conventional oils on the shelves these days (besides Mobil) are Group III base oil (mineral oil processed like Group II+ ... just left in "the cooker" a bit longer) they simply aren't worth the $4-5+ per quart price.

Basically, the difference between a Group I mineral oil and a Group IV & V synthetic, which was common several years ago, was significant. However, with some $1.30 per quart conventional oils using Group II+ base stocks, and some 'synthetics' being merely Group III, it isn't much of a performance difference ... and certainly not worth the price increase.


----------



## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm still using Chevron Supreme as it's UOAs are as good and better than the AMSOIL I previously ran.


----------



## nsew45 (Aug 7, 2005)

Where does Castrol fit in the picture?


----------



## jetmechG550 (Jun 12, 2005)

Animal, I almost did that. :cheers: I was going to complete his sentence for him and say Nissan doesn't recommend it because you won't see me for another 12-15K which would equate to 3-4 regular oil changes. 

Nsew45, Castrol is good oil, IMO. I've used it on every vehicle I've ever owned. They make the synth for BMW which is some variation of Syntec (or at least that is what I was told by my service advisor).


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

jetmechG550 said:


> Nsew45, Castrol is good oil, IMO. I've used it on every vehicle I've ever owned. They make the synth for BMW which is some variation of Syntec (or at least that is what I was told by my service advisor).


Years ago, when synthetics were considered snake oil, I used some stuff sold through independent distributors under the label "SYN-TREK". It was esther, not mineral, based synthetic that, at least for its time, was superior to practically everything on the market (including Mobile 1 and Amsoil). The company sold off to Amway and from there I have lost track. Now it seems everyone is making synthetics and even regular old petrolium based oils are high-tec. Something that should be considered when going for extended changes is how dirty is your engine. By this, I mean how much contamination does the engine add to the oil in the form of blow-by - carbon in the bearings is not good as was discovered by users of graphite based lubricants.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_" Castrol is good oil, IMO. I've used it on every vehicle I've ever owned. They make the synth for BMW which is some variation of Syntec (or at least that is what I was told by my service advisor)."_

I believe you are correct about Castrol making the OEM BMW synthetic oil ... although I don't know if this says anything about its quality. The problem is Castrol's Syntec "synthetic" is mostly a Group III (mineral) oil. However, the 0W-30 Syntec imported to Germany is thought to be a genuine Group IV and/or Group V synthetic. It is very well thought of at BITOG.

So what about the BMW oil Castrol supplies? Who knows?

In short, there are no BAD oils on the market nowadays. I believe Castrol is using a Group II base oil in its conventional GTX ... but that info may be out of date.

The problem is Castrol is not a refiner like Chevron, Pennzoil or Conoco and merely buys oil from refineries, bottles it and then markets it. So, their formula can change suddenly and it wil be some time before l

Years ago, I believed that GTX used fewer detergents as a way to get lower wear rates and myself and others saw evidence of sludging in some applications.

However, this info is also very out of date. Anything older than 2 years is out of date these days. 

In short, Castrol is good stuff (as most oils are) ... but as good as Chevron or Pennzoil? I don't think so. Their reputation is mostly the product of aggressive marketing. That's all.

But continue to use it if you want. It's not bad.


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Found this interesting.


----------



## ruedy (Jan 4, 2005)

Just to add my 2 cents: At least 2 of the many Nissan dealers here in Calgary will do the oil change and use your synthetic. The guy I bought my Pathy from has all the receipts and they specifically show that the customer supplied the synthetic oil. So some dealers are hip.


----------



## jetmechG550 (Jun 12, 2005)

Bror Jace said:


> I believe you are correct about Castrol making the OEM BMW synthetic oil ... although I don't know if this says anything about its quality. The problem is Castrol's Syntec "synthetic" is mostly a Group III (mineral) oil. However, the 0W-30 Syntec imported to Germany is thought to be a genuine Group IV and/or Group V synthetic. It is very well thought of at BITOG.
> 
> So what about the BMW oil Castrol supplies? Who knows?


I can attest since I have seen the oil that comes out of my car after about 15K and it looks cleaner than any conventional oil does after 1K. I'm driving an 02 325i, the Pathi is my wifes transpo.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_"I can attest since I have seen the oil that comes out of my car after about 15K and it looks cleaner than any conventional oil does after 1K. I'm driving an 02 325i, the Pathi is my wifes transpo."_

I don't doubt this. I have seen the same result from using the domestic version of Castrol Syntec in numerous weights a handful of years ago.

But are you _sure_ that's a good thing? 

I'm not. 

Because, when I follow using Castrol with something like Mobil 1, the Mobil 1 goes dark very quickly. Now, I'm no huge Mobil 1 fan ... but I know it's a good oil and its ability to clean is well documented.

What I theorize is that Castol's formula is light on detergents and dispersants. These compounds can compromise a formula's ability to keep the inside of an engine clean. In short, they leave behind crud that should drain out with each oil change. This may be OK in some applications. But in others prone to sludge build up, using such an oil is asking for trouble in the long run.

What I think was happening in my case is that the fresh Mobil 1 would find these deposits, stir them up and hold them in suspension ... making the oil dirty quite quickly.

It's all about balancing all the roles the oil has to perform: lubricating, cooling and cleaning. Different companies can have different priorities and tailor their formula(s) accordingly.


----------



## ak47m203 (Apr 24, 2005)

others use engine flush for 30 min before synthetic. that amsoil told me.

http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/engine_flush.htm














Bror Jace said:


> _"I can attest since I have seen the oil that comes out of my car after about 15K and it looks cleaner than any conventional oil does after 1K. I'm driving an 02 325i, the Pathi is my wifes transpo."_
> 
> I don't doubt this. I have seen the same result from using the domestic version of Castrol Syntec in numerous weights a handful of years ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Or is it Mobil 1 itself that is darkening? 
I remember in the early days of Mobil 1 the label had in big print "100% Synthetic*". At the bottom, in very small print, was "* added to petroleum base". Since that bit of deceptive packaging, I have never trusted Mobil products. Even though, from what I have read, Mobil 1 is supposed to be a good product, I'm not convinced (and probably never will be) it is as good as some claim. Depending on the qualities of the oil, it darkens over time as it is exposed to heat. Could this explain what you are seeing?


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*Animal*: _"Or is it Mobil 1 itself that is darkening?"_

Yes, I/we had considered this but most of us dismissed it because there are plenty of applications which show the stuff as lasting a long time without changing color much, if at all. Castrol Syntec _always_ seems to stay clean a long time ... and I've told you why I think so. 

Also, UOAs show the Mobil 1 as fine for long intervals, so I don't think this stuff is oxidizing prematurely at all.

_"I remember in the early days of Mobil 1 the label had in big print "100% Synthetic*". At the bottom, in very small print, was: "*added to petroleum base."_ 

Actually, I think the small-print phrase was "Exclusive of carrier oil." The criticism of Mobil for having a bit of mineral oil was probably legitimate ... but overblown. Mobil used a small amount of Group I mineral oil as a way of blending additives into the oil formulation. It improved formula miscibility and helped conditioning of the engine's various seals ... two traditional weak points for early PAOs. 

The mineral content was only something like 5-15%. Given the low, low pour point, you had to know it wasn't much. Anyway, they dropped this practice when they went to the tri-synthetic formula. The mineral oil content was replaced with an alkylated aromatic which, along with the PAO and ester became the three components of the "Tri-Synthetic" base oil.

Mobil may not have been 100% on the up and up, but they aren't exactly villains, either. Castrol, with their switch to Group III oils in 1997, was closer to a genuine villain.

*AK47m203*, I don't think a flush is necessary for most cars ... and it shouldn't be necessary for switching brands or "type" of oil.

The cynical person in me says this is just Amsoil trying to sell another product. Their PAO & ester oils are decent stuff. No reason to sell everyone on the idea of flushing their engines often. 

Most cleaners do their cleaning at the expense of lubrication ... so problems can arise. Wear can be accelerated, dislodge chunks of sludge can block oil passages and I've even seen headgaskets fail immediately after using some kinds of flushes (older ones). 

I will only do minor, gentle cleaning of an engine's innards and I won't use any product until I have a pretty good idea what's in it.


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Bror Jace,
You seem to know a bit about this. Though I believe I understand what you are saying, you appear to contradict yourself when you first state that you "don't think a flush is necessary for most cars" then "dislodge chunks of sludge" and "I will only do minor, gentle cleaning of an engine's innards and I won't use any product until I have a pretty good idea what's in it."

I first suggest that a realatively simple way to get an idea of the current condition is to remove a valve cover. The top end is perhaps the worst place for lubricants. The conditions under the covers have puddles, vapors, extreme heat, realatively low flow and only gravity for the return. On most engines, sludge begins to build up in the heads in a very short time 20K to 30K. I said "most engines", because I had a Nissan PU with the Z24 which had over 200K and no sludge in the head. I haven't pulled the covers on my Pathy yet, but doubt it will be as clean. 

Now my point. Personally, I don't believe in extended changes because, no matter how good the oil, every engine gets contamination, but if I was going for extended drain synthetic I would first do as I believe you suggested and run several normal drains with a mild detergant addative. If the oil looks darker than usual at 1K or 2K, I'd change it earlier and continue until it was cleaning up. Additionally, I'd spend the extra money for a high quality, non-paper oil filter or change the filter every 3K and top it off. I'd also monitor the quality of the oil every 3K or so.

But this is just my opinion.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_"Though I believe I understand what you are saying, you appear to contradict yourself when you first state that you 'don't think a flush is necessary for most cars' then 'dislodge chunks of sludge' and 'I will only do minor, gentle cleaning of an engine's innards and I won't use any product until I have a pretty good idea what's in it.' "_

OK, let me clarify. I think for most of "us" (car guys) who take care of our cars flushing is not necessary. As you have stated However, if you pick up a used car that has been neglected and you see evidence of sludge build-up (pulling the valve cover off is an excellent idea), I'd do a very _gentle_ and _gradual_ cleaning using Auto-RX, Marvel Mystery Oil, Schaeffer Neutra 131 or merely a heavy-duty engine oil (15W-40). With each product, I'd use them sparingly so as not to dislodge too much crud at once.

Even a couple changes using a cheap, ordinary motor oil such as SuperTech could be used as a mild kind of flushing if the interval is kept short ... say, several hundred miles or as many as 1,500.

My stance against using flushes I know nothing about stands. 

_"Personally, I don't believe in extended changes because, no matter how good the oil, every engine gets contamination, but if I was going for extended drain synthetic I would first do as I believe you suggested and run several normal drains with a mild detergant additive. If the oil looks darker than usual at 1K or 2K, I'd change it earlier and continue until it was cleaning up. Additionally, I'd spend the extra money for a high quality, non-paper oil filter or change the filter every 3K and top it off. I'd also monitor the quality of the oil every 3K or so._

I more or less agree with you. My idea of an "extended" drain is 6,000-7,500 miles with a premium oil such as Red Line, Mobil 1 or Schaeffer's excellent synthetic blends. I've done UOAs to show me how the oil is holding up so I know the oil is holding up fine (particulates, TBN, etc ...). I have no interest in going longer than this no matter what the oil says/claims. It's a foolish, false economy to try and get another 1,000-2,000 miles out of an oil and filter. What are you saving over the years ... $5-10 per year?

BUT ... If anyone here wants to always limit their oil change interval to 2,500-4,000 miles, I _strongly recommend_ that you save your money and skip the synthetics altogether. You are _not_ seeing any benefit unless you are running in sub freezing weather ... or regularly drive in Death Valley. Use an excellent mineral oil such as Chevron, Pennzoil or Havoline. Castrol GTX is fine as well for this moderate duty even if I don't use this stuff.

Next month, I'm going to dump my current fill of Schaeffer synthetic blend (10W-30 & 15W-40) when it will have only 3,500 miles on it (5 months of short trips. I will switch to Chevron Supreme 5W-30 for the cooler fall months and then in mid-to-early December, will switch to a 5W-30 synthetic or synthetic blend for the winter ... haven't decided yet. 

As for the filter, I avoid buying the super-premium ones such as Purolator Pure-One or Mobil 1. The high-density ("high-efficiency") filter can be restrictive to the flow of oil in some applications. I prefer the OEM filters ... as well as quality aftermarket filters from Wix (or NAPA - same filter), Hastings, Baldwin and Purolator (their 'normal' quality filter).

Is that clearer?


----------



## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Bror Jace said:


> Is that clearer?


Yes. And I believe we have only minor differences in opinions. I personally do mineral every 3K with the exception of a few years running synthetics many years ago. I was impressed with it's performance, particularly in its ability to remain on the parts after a hot engine is parked and for an extended period (several months). This meant that cold start ups were not dry ones. Since then, I've purchased used vehicles and have been hesitant to switch to synthetics in the engines mid-life. This was generally thought of as a no-no in the early days of synthetics, but now the consensus seems to be that this is a myth, perhaps due to changes in the additives.  
The area I live in is in the 0-100 F range; we do occasionally hit these extremes and even, on rare occasions, surpass them. The multi-grade mineral oils designed for these highs and lows do not perform as well as equivalent synthetics. So I am thinking of possibly using synthetics again, though I'm not likely to go over 3K between changes, at least not at first.


----------



## barnkim (Jul 19, 2005)

Animal said:


> Yes. And I believe we have only minor differences in opinions. I personally do mineral every 3K with the exception of a few years running synthetics many years ago. I was impressed with it's performance, particularly in its ability to remain on the parts after a hot engine is parked and for an extended period (several months). This meant that cold start ups were not dry ones. Since then, I've purchased used vehicles and have been hesitant to switch to synthetics in the engines mid-life. This was generally thought of as a no-no in the early days of synthetics, but now the consensus seems to be that this is a myth, perhaps due to changes in the additives.
> The area I live in is in the 0-100 F range; we do occasionally hit these extremes and even, on rare occasions, surpass them. The multi-grade mineral oils designed for these highs and lows do not perform as well as equivalent synthetics. So I am thinking of possibly using synthetics again, though I'm not likely to go over 3K between changes, at least not at first.


I just changed my oil today to 5W-30 synthetic Mobil 1. I got 1400 miles on my 05 Pathy. I can tell you right now that there is nothing but upside to using synthetic oil.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*Animal*:_" ... a few years running synthetics many years ago. I was impressed with its performance, particularly in its ability to remain on the parts after a hot engine is parked and for an extended period (several months). This meant that cold start ups were not dry ones."_

I'm not sure that's a feature of all synthetics. I would believe ester (Group V) synthetics (Red Line, NEO, etc ...) would have a film lasting on metal parts longer than mineral oil because of esters' affinity for metal. It is believed that the Castrol "Start-up" oil has some of its mineral base stock bolstered by the addition of an ester to protect on start-up. This concept of oil, while sound, was a commercial failure and I believe it has been withdrawn.

I don't believe PAO-based synthetics (Mobil 1, Amsoil, Schaeffer and a few other brands) will do the same thing. Both mineral oil and PAO are similar hydrocarbons. PAO being more uniform and the molecule size can be somewhat 'tailored' to the application. So, I'd expect their ability to cling to metal parts to be about the same. Of course, at least older versions of PAO-based synthetics do have _some_ ester in their formula. 

But the film that protects parts _most_ when there's no oil pressure (or under sever loads) is the barrier anti-wear additives such as moly, zinc phosphate and/or boron. These bond to the metal under periods of heat and stress and stay until it is scuffed off after repeated metal-to-metal contact.

And of course, the presence of these additives is independent of the base oil used.

_"I've purchased used vehicles and have been hesitant to switch to synthetics in the engines mid-life. This was generally thought of as a no-no in the early days of synthetics, but now the consensus seems to be that this is a myth, perhaps due to changes in the additives."_

Early PAOs, especially when used all by themselves, tended to leach the plasticizer out of engine seals (shrinking them and making them more brittle) which would cause leaks in some engines (depending on seal composition and configuration). The addition of esters in the base oil as seal conditioning agents largely cured this. Now, running high mileage engines on synthetics is usually fine ... as is switching back and forth.

_"The area I live in is in the 0-100 F range; we do occasionally hit these extremes and even, on rare occasions, surpass them. The multi-grade mineral oils designed for these highs and lows do not perform as well as equivalent synthetics. So I am thinking of possibly using synthetics again, though I'm not likely to go over 3K between changes, at least not at first._

OK, but I think you'd be fine with conventional oils. Periodic heat waves are not the same as 6-8 months of 90+ temps. 3,000 miles of use is not stressing the conventional oils of today. Most will shear down by the end of a 3,000 mile interval (by design) ... but their robust additive packages keep wear remarkable low ... I've seen the UOA lab test results to prove it.


----------



## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

I mentioned above that I thought Castrol Start-Up had been withdrawn from the marketplace. That observation appears to be in error.


----------



## leerob58 (Dec 28, 2005)

*when to use a synthetic oil*

Hello, I am new to the forum and, learning a lot reading your questions and replys. I have a new 2005 Xterra SE 4x4 i have 2650 miles. I just recently got my first oil change and filter at the dealer. I also ask them about changing to a Synthetic oil and was told that it was not a necessary and that the basic oil change with an additive could do the same job.
I don't believe that because i use to put a synthetic in my last suv a 4runner and it seemed to work great.
Question: When do you start using a Synthetic oil on a new car are truck?
and can it be used all year round, I live in Dutchess county, NY.


----------

