# electric water pump



## Engloid (Jul 7, 2002)

I'll share this idea, but I don't plan to do it myself. I got a Z that I put most of my time into, and my Altima is a daily driver.. but some of you go for performance from the Altima, so ...here's the idea

To disable the stock water pump: Get a trashed pump and mail it to me. I'll cut off the snout, take out the shaft, and internals, and weld a plate on the front of it so that it will merely transfer water from the block outlet to inlet. I will do this for no charge at all...IF you dyno the gains. This is because of my curiosity. If you're not gonna dyno the gains, I'll want a few bucks, but not enough to scare you off from this.

To provide water cooling:
Get an inline electric water pump. Use plain hoses to put it inline at the radiator or other suitable place. Then use a thermostatic switch so that your water pump doesn't turn on until the car warms up. Or you may work in a way to hook it to your stock electric fan so that they both turn on at the same time.

I'll bet money that this mod will provide significantly more gains than an underdrive pulley would....and probably for less money.

Who's up to the challenge?


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

what pump are you using I was posting about this before and nobody could name a pump to use that would be happy pumping very hot water.

can you provide info?


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## Engloid (Jul 7, 2002)

I've not done this. I'm using the stock pump. You can get electric water pumps on ebay, Summit, or many other places. I'd avoid the ones that are made to mount to the engine block. Get one that you can mount to the fenderwell, firewall, or just anywhere you can run hoses to it.


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

main issue is it needs to be able to handle up to 230degrees and 17psi so it's not quite any 12 marine pump, that's the part that has hung me up, i guess i can look at grainger, boatUS only had 1 potential canidate.

btw... awesome welding.

how about this pump? 

or this: ( doesn't mention use with hot water.. )


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## Engloid (Jul 7, 2002)

It definitely will be a custom job, but if any brackets and things are necessary, there's always people ready to buy things that bolt on and have been tried and tested. You may be able to get all your costs back by making duplicates of stuff and keeping the info on what parts they should need otherwise.

Something like Grainger Item: 4P019 may work. 










You can find it at Grainger.com

Specs:

Shower Drain System 
Shower Drain System, Voltage Rating 12 Volts, Maximum Flow 800 GPH, Current Rating 2.8 Amps, Water Flow @ 0 Foot of Head 800 GPH, Water Flow @ 15 Feet of Head 120 GPH, Water Flow @ 3.35 Feet of Head 615 GPH, Water Flow @ 6.7 Feet of Head 425 GPH, Hose Outlet 3/4 Inches, Maximum Head 12.5 Feet, Length 2 3/8 Inches, Height 5 Inches, Width 9 1/2 Inches, Tank Capacity 1 1/2 Gallons 

You'd have to verify with Grainger or the manufacturer that it would take the heat.

It looks like it comes in a tank. If the pump works as a sump, you would have to either leave the pump in this tank, or maybe make a smaller one. At 9.5" long, it shouldn't be too hard to find a spot for it, especially if you have taken out some of the other unnecessary things under the hood.

If you wanted a more "sure shot" option of something that can take the heat, and are willing to pay a bit more money, look at THESE. Some will have brackets to bolt direct onto the block of a 350 Chevy or something, but there's always a way, even if it's cutting off the mounting parts and making your own mounting or using the stock mounting points, but putting it on the fenderwell.

Here's a possibility for a switch HERE Pic:


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

to me it seems that other than finding a suitable pump it's easy. Either of the ones i posted would be good, they both mention hot water circulation in the applications. 

what were you saying about making the old belt driven pump into an idler pulley? on the b11's it seeme easiest to just cut the blades of the impeller shaft.


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## Engloid (Jul 7, 2002)

I dunno why, but I didn't even look at the pumps you posted before. The first one with the bronze housing looks nice. It could be hidden so that it didn't look out of place in the engine bay.

I guess you could cut the blades off the stock pump, but then you're still wearing bearings and the seal...which is just a place for future failure. By cutting it off and welding on plate, you have nothing to fail but the gasket, which isn't very likely, reguardless of how old it is.

I'm sure you could even rig up any thermostatic switch to work, or put a relay in and run it off of the electric fan circuit.

The thing that got me thinking of this:
A while back, a guy was telling me of running the vg30et up to 7500rpm's for racing. He said that all the aftermarket pumps would break. The pulley flange would come loose from the shaft. The pumps from Nissan seemed to hold. This tells me that the pump is seeing a lot of resistance in trying to force much more water through the small water ports at high rpm's....this is bound to rob the engine of a lot of power.

People go to the effort of an electric fan when they had a stock pulley driven one, and they like the gains, but my bet is that forcing air into the engine bay doesn't rob you of nearly the power of forcing water into small ports in the engine.


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

i'll have to post a picture of my pump. so what you would do is cut the pump housing apart and weld aluminum plate so that there is no pulley or any of that. If i understand correctly.

The belt driven pumps rotate too fast at high rpm and the cavitation causes them to break I belive.

I already have an electric fan rigged up on my car, but the temperature switch for the pump should be where the water exits the block, so it would probably end up on a different circuit. electric fan draws like 30A anyways.

hmmm the temperature switch might even be located in the old pump housing...


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

a more simpler solution would be an underdrive pulley. hondas will use an underdrive pulley to slow the water pumps down so they dont cavitate at the higher rpms. the concept of an electric water pump has been in place for some time on domestics and is use even on some import dragsters. my main issue for using an electric pump would be reliability. what if it fails to come on at the specified temp and im not monitoring my temp gauge? im pretty much screwed. its a good idea, but even the pumps available thru summit and jegs specify to use it only for racing purposes and not on a daily driver.


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## Engloid (Jul 7, 2002)

Asleep_94_Altima said:


> a more simpler solution would be an underdrive pulley. hondas will use an underdrive pulley to slow the water pumps down so they dont cavitate at the higher rpms.


It doesn't accomplish the same thing. the difference is that an underdrive pulley REDUCES the power taken by the water pump, and an electric pump ELEMINATES the power taken. Not only that, an underdrive pulley slows the pump and means you pump less water...decreasing the cooling. In addition, you slow the alternator, which can give problems with producing enough electricity to run stereos and charge the battery.


Asleep_94_Altima said:


> the concept of an electric water pump has been in place for some time on domestics and is use even on some import dragsters.


The reason: cause it works.


Asleep_94_Altima said:


> my main issue for using an electric pump would be reliability. what if it fails to come on at the specified temp and im not monitoring my temp gauge? im pretty much screwed.


So what if your water pump belt breaks? The same thing can happen. Are you concerned about your electric fan going out? Now tell me what the reccomended interval between belt changes versus electric fan changes. They don't reccomend fuse changes on an electric fan, but they do reccomend belt changes for belt driven ones. What am I getting at? Electric accessories like an electric fan are more reliable than belt driven ones. 


Asleep_94_Altima said:


> its a good idea, but even the pumps available thru summit and jegs specify to use it only for racing purposes and not on a daily driver.


And they do the same for K&N filters, cold air intakes and probably even some batteries, fuses and other things that you likely have on your car. It's a liability issue. They know people ignore these statements and will use them on the streets anyway...but their statements help them to avoid liabilities.


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## minute rice sentra (Mar 21, 2003)

It would be pretty nice to only have one accessory(alternator), some type of brushless DC motor would probably take care of any reliability issues with electric water pumps, and if/when I do this I would have some kind of failsafe to prevent damage.


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

Engloid said:


> It doesn't accomplish the same thing. the difference is that an underdrive pulley REDUCES the power taken by the water pump, and an electric pump ELEMINATES the power taken. Not only that, an underdrive pulley slows the pump and means you pump less water...decreasing the cooling. In addition, you slow the alternator, which can give problems with producing enough electricity to run stereos and charge the battery.
> 
> The reason: cause it works.
> 
> ...


dont try and dissect my post like is if you have the only and last word on something YOU are asking advice about. not only are you wrong about the reason for the underdrive pulley, but you turn it around on me to try, and poorly, make me look like an idiot. are you assuming that the only underdrive pulley available is the one for the crankshaft? if it is, you are dead wrong. go and do some research and you will see that they have multiple (read, more than one) underdrive pullies for the different accessories on the engine. they will use one that spins the pump SLOWER, not for less cooling but to have the SAME cooling and movement of coolant at higher rpms that they would have at lower rpms. this means, that the alternator is STILL spinning normal speed... amazing isnt it? as far as belts go, id much rather carry around an extra belt for the possible event of having one break. cant say that i feel the same about carrying an extra, heavy and expensive electric water pump, on the chance that i might need one. the reason they do not recommend one for daily use is because they pump LESS water than your belt driven one does. i know, ive researched it plenty of times for use on my chevy. so dont come in here all high and mighty asking for help if youre not going to welcome any and ALL opinions that you will invariably get. 

edit- since the last time i researched electric water pumps, they have gone up in volume, but still not to the volume that belt driven ones can maintain. the newer pumps also, while still parasitic, do not consume as much power as the older ones did.


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## stevezcar (May 3, 2004)

*Engloid is right*

:dumbass: Altima boy you might want to study this a bit more. 

Sorry but Engloid is right.


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

I found atleast 2 pumps specifically for remote electric water pump applications on summit racing. they're close to $300. If you like excitement, you might be able to use the one from grainger, which is only rated to 180 degrees.

so, it seems easy as making the plate for the old pump and coming up with $300 and a ~$30 194 degree nissan temperature switch and a relay.

summitracing 

summitracing2

I know the summit racing pumps will work, the grainger pump might work, the boatUS pump... ??? the $300 is cheaper than the potential damage from the cheaper pump.

I would almost predict that the electric pump wont last as long as a regular pump on a regular engine. But you wouldn't do this to a regular engine anyways...


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

stevezcar said:


> :dumbass: Altima boy you might want to study this a bit more.
> 
> Sorry but Engloid is right.


if you have nothing to contribute, dont respond at all. its that easy. im not saying that it will not work, im saying thats its not practical on a daily driver.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

Well nothing against this particular moderator everyone is yelling at but on sr20 engines this has been done and I guess it works... In some instances some of them haven't put a thermostatic switch in, it never lets the engine warm up. So I guess it works... but I don't remember ever seeing a dyno that proves it gains anything in power, I'm sure it does though. 

They didn't use anything high speed like that picture up there, they just used an inline pump for water boats I believe.


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

James said:


> on sr20 engines this has been done and I guess it works...
> 
> They didn't use anything high speed like that picture up there, they just used an inline pump for water boats I believe.


any manufacurer / model of pump that people have had work? True, if you keep the coolant in the 160 - 180 degree range, then you don't have a problem with temperature ratings or pressure issues.

-- or did i just answer my own question?


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

im sure that they have been tried and they have worked. with me living in arizona and having summertime temps upwards of 110 degrees, id have a serious issue with making sure that the thing works, especially with the added load of an a/c compressor. the water pump would have to kick on when the fans kick on, which, it would seem to me, would be quite often in our kind of heat. would it be worth that much (whatever it might net you) hp to have that kind of insecurities? not to me its not. maybe if i ran it on the weekends only, but never on a vehicle like mine that sees over 100 miles a day for a daily commute. am i making sense now? surely you can see my point.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

B11sleeper said:


> any manufacurer / model of pump that people have had work? True, if you keep the coolant in the 160 - 180 degree range, then you don't have a problem with temperature ratings or pressure issues.
> 
> -- or did i just answer my own question?


just did a search over there and found the thread with some good pictures:

http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=54010&highlight=electric+water+pump

a lot of places sell that kit but from what I can tell everyone seems to buy off summit or used... 

you know what the solution is they came up with to heat up the coolant? a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator until it warms up! hahahaha... ingenious!!!


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

hehe, thats an old trick that anyone that lives where there is snow knows... on my truck, i have a toggle switch for the fan that keeps it off until my truck would warm up - but thats still not as effective as the cardboard. id like to see a dyno chart to see what the gains actually are. id also like to know how cool these guys are able to keep their engines after several passes on a track or even on a freeway run and how consistant the temp gauge is. the lack of coolant moving thru the radiator makes me wonder. ill have to bring that link up from home and read up.


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

temperature regulation is fun.

the radiator core should have a thermal switch that opens at say 194 or whatever the OEM temperature switch turns the electric fan on at.

The Electric pump should have a temperature sensor at the block outlet or in the old pump housing. This would probably depend on how you want to manage the pump, I would put the sensor in the old pump housing and would have the pump run slowly all the time, and if the temperature goes up then kick the pump up to a higher speed, then the radiator will take care of it's thermal load as needed...

would it be worthwhile to a. take out the mechanical thermostat entirely or b. put in a 160 degree or 180 degree unit?

there are constants somewhere as to what temperature the electric fan should come on at and what temperature the electric pump should start working harder at.

the sr20 forums piece doesn't seem to come to any concrete conclusions either, so YMMV...
:cheers: 


I have an e16 which is on the way out, so i could try this out if i get hold of a pump.


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

Well I guess I missed out on a little dispute...

The KA24 has a problem with water pump cavitation at higher RPMs in high performance application and thus an underdrive pulley is recommended. Not only that but the power streering pump can run cooler and more efficiently with the underdrive pulley. The slightly slower RPM of the alternator has minimal effect on electrical accessories even at idle with a properly wired/grounded system but I only have two V-12 Alpine amps with 600 watts of total power... 
Also the stock water pump has fairly low parasitic drag but relatively high flow by the design so an upgrade has to be a higher flow in order to justify it.
The use of a thicker core radiator, higher pressure Nismo cap, and a lower temp Nismo thermostat are the best things you can do for the cooling system on an Altima.

I like the your concept of an electric water pump but the pump proposed is far too large in mass for any Nissan that I know of. The pumps offered by Summit and Jegs are much better suited to our applications. I would also like a dry sump oiling system but I think that both are too extensive of a modification for a daily driver or even a semi-competitive racer. I have considered both but am satisfied with the mods I have chosen and implemented for my built turbo engine.

As a side note; ideas/concepts are better presented when an understanding approach and consideration is given to those who respond. When a defensive or offensive arguement seems to ensue it doesn't reflect well and people like myself question whether or not to allow someone to experiment on my parts or car. I think ideas become better with constructive criticism but that is just my thoughts but I maybe wrong...

Troy


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

B11sleeper said:


> temperature regulation is fun.
> 
> the radiator core should have a thermal switch that opens at say 194 or whatever the OEM temperature switch turns the electric fan on at.
> 
> ...


Removing the thermostat all together is not a good idea because the flow is increased so much most of the time the engine looses power because the combustion mixture doesn't burn as well since the surrounding cylinder wall is actually cooler than it should be for longer. Also with the old E16 gas has a tendency to pool in the intake because of the incomplete atomization that occurs. 
Try a product called "Water Wetter" from RedLine, check for a compatible lower temp thermostat and try switching to an electric slim-line fan like those from Flex-A-Lite with an adj. temp control, I think that will give you a more optimal cooling system. 

Troy


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

other than having a vehicle that still is pushing the cooling system. If i turn the electric fan all the time I run at about 180 degrees + a bit if it's really hot. 180 is about the coolest I can run since that's what the thermostat opens at.

What I was referring to was using a controler on the pump so that the electric pump simulates the mechanical thermostat, and doesn't pump very much water below X temp, so that way without having a thermal valve it wouldn't overcool and still keep the block an even temperature.

as I recall the 2 pumps I found from non automotive sources weren't that big. But for sure the ones from summit would work.


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## minute rice sentra (Mar 21, 2003)

B11sleeper said:


> If i turn the electric fan all the time I run at about 180 degrees + a bit if it's really hot. 180 is about the coolest I can run since that's what the thermostat opens at.


My temp stays barely above 150 beating around on the streets and sits at ~170 at anything constant above 60mph. The engine seems to be pretty happy with it, when I'm in stop/go traffic I can feel the power loss when the engine gets above ~190-200 degrees, probably mostly from my WAI sucking in hot air.


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

stevezcar said:


> :dumbass: Altima boy you might want to study this a bit more.
> 
> Sorry but Engloid is right.


seems like i wasnt talking out of my ass now huh?


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