# Supercharger and Turbocharger??



## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

Hey guys and girls,
I did a search beforehand and couldn't find any other threads that handled this topic and it may seem stupid to some of you but I'm an engine newbie. Is it possible to supercharge and turbocharge an engine (for example on a 350Z)? Would this put too much stress on the internals? Is it just stupid to put that much force on the engine? It seems like the best of both induction and exhaust to have a super and turbo charger on an engine. Although it also seems like it would tear an engine to pieces, . So, granted, I'm sure this may be a stupid question to many but bear with me. Thanks in advance! Later,
Fletch


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

yes..it would def. put a major strain on the engine, and i have never seen it done...some honda kid that i skate with says he's seen one, but i dunno about those kids haha


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## dave_f (Dec 11, 2002)

its been done ... i think one of last years ultimate street challenge cars had this setup. an MR2 I belive. The engine bay looked like frankensteins laboratory. Bottome line is that it is possible, but not very practical. As far as stress on the engine ... boost is boost, it doesent matter what you are using to generate it, 
-dave


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> yes..it would def. put a major strain on the engine, and i have never seen it done...some honda kid that i skate with says he's seen one, but i dunno about those kids haha



wouldn't put any more strain on a car than any other kind of boost.

it's for people with DEEP pockets.


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

dave_f said:


> its been done ... i think one of last years ultimate street challenge cars had this setup. an MR2 I belive. The engine bay looked like frankensteins laboratory. Bottome line is that it is possible, but not very practical. As far as stress on the engine ... boost is boost, it doesent matter what you are using to generate it,
> -dave



what do you mean? that having a supercharger AND a turbo is gonna put the same amount of stress on the engine as if it had only 1 of them? maybe thats possible, but only if both of the chargers only were running very low boost, 5-8psi at most...still, i dunno


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> what do you mean? that having a supercharger AND a turbo is gonna put the same amount of stress on the engine as if it had only 1 of them? maybe thats possible, but only if both of the chargers only were running very low boost, 5-8psi at most...still, i dunno



thats 5-8psi at the most for EACH, not both of them combined...

someone post a pic of one...ive never seen it!!! :showpics: haha


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

think about it Tommy....one, you don't know what yer talking about......two: the supercharger would be roots style, providing power before turbo lag. When s/c tapers off, turbocharger takes over.


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## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

chimmike said:


> think about it Tommy....one, you don't know what yer talking about......two: the supercharger would be roots style, providing power before turbo lag. When s/c tapers off, turbocharger takes over.


That would be pretty kick ass. I'm sure I'll never have enough money to actually do this and I know I've never really heard of it being done. That's why I asked. It seems pretty unorthodox but I was just wondering why no one ever did it (besides obvious reason of money).


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

chimmike said:


> think about it Tommy....one, you don't know what yer talking about......two: the supercharger would be roots style, providing power before turbo lag. When s/c tapers off, turbocharger takes over.




HAHAH i know, i dont know what im talkin about...i said that before...


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## Bluebird Special (Feb 3, 2004)

*Nissan did it!*

I think it was 93 (not sure of the exact year and am too lazy so search March Superturbo) Nissan March Superturbo. It had a linked forced induction system that consisted of a compressor for low range and a turbo for high range both connected with some very fancy plumbing on a 1.0 or 1.3 (obviously not for the states). They were built for homologation in WRC super 1600. All paraphrased and interpreted from an UK March site. My dream for the mighty LA supercharged streetlight starts and turbocharged freeway passes in a kei car, hmmm kei car.


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

A turbo and supercharger is called a twincharger. How about this one guys...










It is a RB26DETTR - "R" means Supercharged and it is a Nissan (NISMO) built engine. 1500 HP never looked so beautiful.

Troy


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## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

KA24Tech said:


> A turbo and supercharger is called a twincharger. How about this one guys...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm drooling and cumming at the same time...


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## Cjburn (Jan 24, 2004)

HKS had a kit for the old 4AGZE. It was very rare and was on a couple cars. I remember an old example making around 400 whp. You need to search on MR2.com and it's archives to find it. The theory is to use a roots style blower that builds boost off of redline and disengage it when the large turbo comes on line. Remember the 4A was a 1.6 motor, it needed ALOT of help to get a good turbo going. The stock supercharger was retained on the HKS kit, and the factory superchargers clutch was used to "turn off" the supercharger when preset boost levels were reached. Just some basic info to help you along. This is a very expensive proposition and very complex. With today's modern ball bearing GT series out there, honestly I see no use. I'd even prefer a nice sequential setup over this one.


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## Chillboy (Oct 8, 2003)

OMG! That is one beautiful motor, down right exotic.


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

anyone can make it look good on a stand...i wanna see it IN a CAR...i wanna see it run...then ill be drooling...


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## dave_f (Dec 11, 2002)

I meant exactly what I said, the engine internals dont care what you are using to force more air into it.... it only cares what the outcome is. like I said boos is boost. A turbo charger is capable of generating high boost levels... the addition of the supercharger in many cases is to minimize the amount of lag. if you want to generate head lifting boost levels you dont need a dual system to do it.
-dave



NotAnotherHonda said:


> what do you mean? that having a supercharger AND a turbo is gonna put the same amount of stress on the engine as if it had only 1 of them? maybe thats possible, but only if both of the chargers only were running very low boost, 5-8psi at most...still, i dunno


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## aminidab (Apr 30, 2002)

NotAnotherHonda, how dare you steal my avatar! It took me like 2 minutes to find and resize that pic!

j/k


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

aminidab said:


> NotAnotherHonda, how dare you steal my avatar! It took me like 2 minutes to find and resize that pic!
> 
> j/k



where can i find a pic, then rescale it to make it less than 12 kb, and less than 60 pixels?!?!?!?!


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## HondaHater (Aug 27, 2003)

KA24Tech said:


> A turbo and supercharger is called a twincharger. How about this one guys...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


an ogura supercharger i think it is. anyways, there's a skyline out there somewhere that has rb26dett with TWO ogura superchargers. also known as positive displacement superchargers. it's kicking 1400 hp. does anyone know what it'll do in the quartermile, im very curious.


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## jetsam (Feb 7, 2004)

*Go for originality and style points!*

So, what if you set up a nearly-lag-free 5 psi turbo and a hefty 20 psi centrifugal sc in series, and you plumbed them sequentially, so that the turbo hid the weak low-end boost of the supercharger?


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## sersr20dk (Oct 15, 2003)

the method of boosting that you are refering to is called compound forced induction. it can be done but it think unless it is a full race motor it is a waste of time and money, get a properly sized ball bearing turbo and save some money and frustration.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

I wonder why we're discussing this... its not like any of you guys will actually do this... and there are plenty of books and information that is more reliable than what you hear on a forum.


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## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

James said:


> I wonder why we're discussing this... its not like any of you guys will actually do this... and there are plenty of books and information that is more reliable than what you hear on a forum.


I already said earlier on in the thread that I would probably never be able to afford it. However, I was just asking out of curiousity and sometimes it is fun to talk about things even if you will never be able to do it. We all talk about skylines but very few of us will ever own one.


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## sentraspeed (Mar 26, 2003)

on the oct. 2001 edition of super street there is a then new type r that was boosted with both a super and turbo...it had a 11:1 compression and 20 lbs of boost...thats just crazy


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentraspeed said:


> on the oct. 2001 edition of super street there is a then new type r that was boosted with both a super and turbo...it had a 11:1 compression and 20 lbs of boost...thats just crazy


Thats not long for this world....

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

James said:


> I wonder why we're discussing this... its not like any of you guys will actually do this... and there are plenty of books and information that is more reliable than what you hear on a forum.


For power production, supercharges suck. Centrifugal superchargers have more lag than most turbos.

New generation turbos don't have much lag.

I was talking with Kenny Tran and he said even the big turbos the racers use have nearly no lag nowdays, in fact the power comes on so quickly, its really hard to find traction.

Compound super/turbocharging is a gimmick and sucks.

Mike


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> For power production, supercharges suck. Centrifugal superchargers have more lag than most turbos.
> 
> New generation turbos don't have much lag.
> 
> ...


Actually, superchargers have close to zero lag because they have a mechanical connection to the crankshaft thus RPM and boost are in direct relation. A turbo if built with the correct size, trim, A/R, etc. can have minimal lag but it still has a degree of lag (unless expensive Anti-Lag technology is utilized). A turbo uses gas flow over a fan blade and therefore will always have this hesistation. Newer turbos have greatly improved turbine design with the useage of ball-bearing centers to reduce the friction component. Pro import drag racers like Kenny use semi-auto sequential trannys and a form of anti-lag which allows them to build boost at the line. Twin charging system allows for the great low end response of the supercharger until the larger turbos come into boost and then when the supercharger begins the parasistic loss - where the power produced by the supercharger is mostly consumed by the drag of the belt - the turbos are at mid to full boost.
It is a really nice system if built correctly and is especially useful for the RB above with the two rather large KKK Blitz turbos. 
If anyone is interested check out the books by Corky Bell titled Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems and Supercharged! Design, Testing, and Installation of Supercharger Systems. Both are tremendous information sources and will give you ALL of the basics in both areas of forced induction.

Troy


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

KA24Tech said:


> Actually, superchargers have close to zero lag because they have a mechanical connection to the crankshaft thus RPM and boost are in direct relation. A turbo if built with the correct size, trim, A/R, etc. can have minimal lag but it still has a degree of lag (unless expensive Anti-Lag technology is utilized). A turbo uses gas flow over a fan blade and therefore will always have this hesistation. Newer turbos have greatly improved turbine design with the useage of ball-bearing centers to reduce the friction component. Pro import drag racers like Kenny use semi-auto sequential trannys and a form of anti-lag which allows them to build boost at the line. Twin charging system allows for the great low end response of the supercharger until the larger turbos come into boost and then when the supercharger begins the parasistic loss - where the power produced by the supercharger is mostly consumed by the drag of the belt - the turbos are at mid to full boost.
> It is a really nice system if built correctly and is especially useful for the RB above with the two rather large KKK Blitz turbos.
> If anyone is interested check out the books by Corky Bell titled Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems and Supercharged! Design, Testing, and Installation of Supercharger Systems. Both are tremendous information sources and will give you ALL of the basics in both areas of forced induction.
> 
> Troy


Centrifugal superchargers have plenty of lag because they are not positve displacment. The boost to rpm of a centrifugal is very non linear. Look at the power curve of any centrifugal system. It has less area under the curve than a turbo. It has less low end power as well.

Kenny does not use a semi auto sequntial tranny. He is currently running a stock tranny with a tilton twin disc carbon clutch. He has experemented with dog shifter gearsets for the stock transmission.

Twin charging sucks with two inefficent roots blowers.

A roots blower with boost at low rpm marginaly helps power because the engines VE is so low at that rpm anyway. You are increasing the density of a very small charge.

Mike


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## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> For power production, supercharges suck. Centrifugal superchargers have more lag than most turbos.
> 
> New generation turbos don't have much lag.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the more I think about it and after reading the NPM board about not using the Greddy TT kit, I figure just buying one, good turbocharger should be good enough. Here's another stupid question for you, , what does a blowoff valve do? Is the purpose to release built up pressure from the turbo charger when you let off the gas and the pressure is high? Also, is a blowoff valve necessary when you add a turbo or beneficial at all? Or is it just something you can add if you want? Sorry for the dumb questions but like I said, I'm new to the engine stuff, .


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## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

KA24Tech said:


> If anyone is interested check out the books by Corky Bell titled Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems and Supercharged! Design, Testing, and Installation of Supercharger Systems. Both are tremendous information sources and will give you ALL of the basics in both areas of forced induction.
> 
> Troy


Cool, thanks for the tip! I'll check em out.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

FletchSpecV said:


> Yeah, the more I think about it and after reading the NPM board about not using the Greddy TT kit, I figure just buying one, good turbocharger should be good enough. Here's another stupid question for you, , what does a blowoff valve do? Is the purpose to release built up pressure from the turbo charger when you let off the gas and the pressure is high? Also, is a blowoff valve necessary when you add a turbo or beneficial at all? Or is it just something you can add if you want? Sorry for the dumb questions but like I said, I'm new to the engine stuff, .


When you close the throttle, the pressure suddenly builds up behind the throttle valve and the compressor goes into surge. This slams the compressor into the thrust bearing and can damage it. This can also actualy damage the compressor wheel itself if it surges hard enough.

A blowoff valve gives the air a place to go so the compressor doesnt surge. On Nissans the blowoff valve must be recirculated or the car won't run right.

Mike


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## FletchSpecV (Nov 26, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> When you close the throttle, the pressure suddenly builds up behind the throttle valve and the compressor goes into surge. This slams the compressor into the thrust bearing and can damage it. This can also actualy damage the compressor wheel itself if it surges hard enough.
> 
> A blowoff valve gives the air a place to go so the compressor doesnt surge. On Nissans the blowoff valve must be recirculated or the car won't run right.
> 
> Mike


Ok, I think I got ya, . Thanks!


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