# RB25 vs KA24



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

first off, i'm not new to this, so don't try to persuade me to get an SR20DET. it's a great engine, but its aluminum block isn't meant to hold 500hp. (though i know there are ways to make it do so) I'd just rather spend that money on a vortech supercharger, stronger internals and maybe nitrous if that's not enough. the supercharger should be good for 400+hp and i'd rather have the torque and throttle response that combo would have than the slight HP advantage of a built SR. the KA/supercharger combo would also be cheaper. now an RB25DET would be a definite step up! then i wouldn't be losing displacement or block strength.
i've seen the thread about RB25DET swaps already, but i still have a few questions about it.

(1) is it emissions legal (outside CA)? 
(2) is the block made of iron or aluminum? 
(3)will an RB26's head swap onto it? 
(4)would the internals hold up to 400hp? 
(5) will an RB26's bottom end or a stroker kit for the RB26 fit? 
(6) if not, where can i get stronger internals for th RB25?
(7)what would be a good streetable (ball bearing?) turbo to flow enough for 500hp with relatively fast spool-up?


----------



## Mini_me (Jan 5, 2003)

1. Depends on where you are located.
2. I agree.
3. Most likely, it's been done, go to Meggala.com and go to hybrids there is a pic of a skyline w/RB25DET and RB26DETT head
4. Definitely, heard of some doing over 500 on stock internals (i think.)
5. Good question
6. HKS, Trust, Power Jpn., APEXi; Go to Takakaira.com all kinds of stuff: wheel, body kits, performance parts, accesories, everything.
7. HKS GT3037S or GT3040 if you want a T25 Flange
T3 Flange: T04E, TO4S, TO4R, etc. Bigger though, I think a little slower spool up.
Happy to help.
You might try to get in touch with Night7, he has a S13 w/ RB25 swapped, for the unanswered questions. Try the RB thread, if not go to his website : www.night7racing.com . He is very helpful. Good luck,

Mini me


----------



## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

regardless where you live in the US, the engine is not or will never be emissions legal (unless inspected and tested through a Private Inspector/Referee). and it doesn't matter if you have mandatory emissions testing or not. 

not trying to turn you away from the RB or anything. but the SR's block is able to handle 400-450RWHP. not to mention, have you ever felt what an S13 feels like with 400 some odd RWHP under the hood or 300RWHP, at that. it's insane and EXTREMELY scary. my N/A 240SX had somewhere around 215RWHP and it was enough to scare me when i hit speeds of ~140MPH (that's as far as i ever took it, and that wasn't top speed).


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

esyip said:


> *my N/A 240SX had somewhere around 215RWHP*


mods?


----------



## Bumpin (Feb 18, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> *first off, i'm not new to this, so don't try to persuade me to get an SR20DET. it's a great engine, but its aluminum block isn't meant to hold 500hp. (though i know there are ways to make it do so) I'd just rather spend that money on a vortech supercharger, stronger internals and maybe nitrous if that's not enough. the supercharger should be good for 400+hp and i'd rather have the torque and throttle response that combo would have than the slight HP advantage of a built SR. the KA/supercharger combo would also be cheaper. now an RB25DET would be a definite step up! then i wouldn't be losing displacement or block strength.
> i've seen the thread about RB25DET swaps already, but i still have a few questions about it.
> 
> (1) is it emissions legal (outside CA)?
> ...


Have you found a supercharger kit for the KA? If you have let me know how much it is and how much work needs to be done.


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

*to mini me: thanks for the info. i have contacted night before and while he was very helpful, i thought it better to put this up and get everyones info/opinion instead of bugging him every two days.
*to bumpin 240sx: no, unfortunately i haven't found any actual kits, but vortech's SC's are supposed to be universal, so all i'd have to do is find a suitable pulley to drive it off of and a piece of frame to mount it on.
*to esyip: the only real reasons i don't like the SR20 (as much as my other options, that is) are that i'd run into the same problems with smog regulations as with the RB25, but without the power and displacement thereof, and that i don't like the idea of performing a swap to get a SMALLER engine.
*to everyone: thanks for your responses, but if you want to reprint my original post, please don't use the whole thing. use what is relevant and get on with it. i know i'm kinda long-winded and it just takes up a lot of space.


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

the only real reasons i don't like the SR20 (as much as my other options, that is) are that i'd run into the same problems with smog regulations as with the RB25, but without the power and displacement thereof, and that i don't like the idea of performing a swap to get a SMALLER engine.


wuh wuh wuh???
SR20= 2L 4L
RB25= 2.5 I6

that means the SR gets .5L to every cylinder
while the RB25 gets .417

SR20 has a better displacement
if u want displacement turbo ur KA24
.6 for each cylinder


----------



## Guest (May 20, 2003)

LOL

this is the fisrt time i ever heard there is a match between these 2 engines


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

does the displacement per cylinder really matter? i was just refering to the overall displacement. (SR20:2.0, KA24:2.4, RB25:2.5) i mean, an SR20 n RB20 will have pretty similar output even though the RB obviously has only 2/3 the displacement per cylinder, right? if individual cylinder displacement matters, why?


----------



## Guest (May 20, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> *first off, i'm not new to this, so don't try to persuade me to get an SR20DET. *


but looks like that kid is talking about RB25 vs KA24, obviously there wouldnt be a match between them

the match may be .... HP vs weight ....
pick either


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

and HP vs cost. free KA or $3000 + installation for the RB25


----------



## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

why are you comparing a ka to a rb?? makes no sense to me.

rb25 = from a skyline..enuff said
ka24 = from a truck..literally (the 240sx share the same engine as older frontier trucks)

modding a ka is useless in my view. if you want something that will produce 500hp, go with the rb25. dont even think about the ka24. with the money you will put into the ka to make it 500hp you could have swapped in the rb25 and make it kick out 600hp.

just go witht he rb25 and please explain to me why you're comparing a rb25 to a ka24.


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

the KA24 was found also in the Altima, so does that make it a sedan engine as well?

What about the SR? It was found in the X-Trail in Japan, so does that make it an SUV engine?

Basing an engine's category just on where it is found does it no justice. It's like saying the VQ35 is an SUV crap engine that is found in the Pathfinder. 

And FYI the Frontier offered a V6 supercharged.


----------



## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

thre are different models of the sr..

fwd, awd, gti, etc etc as well as sr20de (no turbo..) etc etc

VQ35's are awesome engines. but again, there are different models of it. in JGTC, a VQ35 was found inside a skyline instead of its original RB26DETT.. i doubt those ingenius people in japan will stick a Pathfinder's VQ35 in a skyline.. 

the KA powerplant found in the new RSX is also shared with the Civic Si as well as teh CR-V.. again..different models of the engine..

it is true that an engine shouldn't be judged by where it is found but there are different models of the engine..

a 240sx/altima/frontier ka24 is no match to the skyline's rb25


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

torque deamon vs horse power monster
thats basically wut this is...


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

once boost enters the equation, the KA24 is perfectly suited to sports car use. it has an iron block, which will hold much more power than aluminum. its head design is a four valve pent-roof, good for controlling detonation. since it is a truck engine nissan designed the bottom end to be extremely strong right from the factory. i've heard of KA's with over 100K miles taking 300+hp for extended periods of time without so much as a rebuild. it also has a really high rod ratio at 1.72:1, meaning it puts a lot less stress on the sides of the cylinder and the rod itself than one with a lower ratio, like an SR20's 1.58:1. i'm sure the RB has both a good head design and bottom end, but its also going to run me $3000+installation. besides, i'm only looking to actually produce 400hp @the crank, but have the engine withstand 500 incase i want to run N2O at the strip.


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

to all the Ka haters out there...
if the KA sucks so bad
give me hard proof why

note: Truck engine is a gay answer and is not proof


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2003)

seriously nobody says KA sucks
KA is a strong engine and you redline it all the time it can still run 150k+ miles

but this guy is comparing to the rb25 thats why i say theres no match


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

vsp3c ur contradicting urself bud...

ka24 = from a truck..literally (the 240sx share the same engine as older frontier trucks)


it is true that an engine shouldn't be judged by where it is found but there are different models of the engine.. thre are different models of the sr..
===========================


"the 240sx share the same engine as older frontier trucks" so ur saying they have FR correct, because you did say LITTERALLY the same truck

so that means 
"fwd, awd, gti, etc etc as well as sr20de (no turbo..) etc etc"
those are not in the picture anymore

therfore the SR20DET from a S13/180sx can be put into a Frontier FR formatt. just as the KA24DE does...

so now that the SR20DET can fit into a Frontier i guess its a truck engine also, because the KA goes into it, and it is considered a truck by i would have to say over 50% of the 240sx crowd

and this is where my quote stands...Basing an engine's category just on where it is found does it no justice.


----------



## himilefrontier (Jan 21, 2003)

Also, the KA was put in the 240 and trucks at the same time, so does that mean that the KA found in a truck is really a sports car engine?Plus, the KA is derived from the old L series engines that are derived form an old 1950's British Austin design( that Nissan added a SOHC head copied from Mercedes to in 1967 for the 510 and later added 2 extra cylinders and put it into the 240z) 240, so does that make it a British engine? Original application says nothing about potential!The KA has a forged crank and rods and a main cap girdle-just like the SR and the KA24DE also has the piston coolers-like the SR20DET and VG30DETT-so it's built like a turbo engine.


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

Engines are designed filling in the requirements any automotive company has (or had). You don't see a lot of engines being designed for just one car or truck anymore (excludes ferrari, lamborghini, light truck diesel, etc.). You can't say that the KA was designed for a car or a truck. It was designed to meet certain requirements. All engines are. 

Taking the KA for example:

1. Had to have good torque for truck applications.
2. Had to have good horsepower for car applications.
3. Designed for reliability and strength to withstand high revs in car applications and a lot of stress from trucks hauling a lot of loads.

These are just a few things. So you can't just say that the KA was taken from a truck and put into a car or vice versa.

Some engines are more biased like the RB series. Those were designed for cars like the Skyline, so good power was a must, torque wasn't as important down low in the powerband like it would have been on a truck, was to be used for racing, etc.

So, the KA was just an engine that had to follow certain criterias as it was to be used in both trucks and cars.


----------



## Guest (May 27, 2003)

The KA powerplant is a truck engine. FULL STOP!!

If the KA engine was designed to be a sports car engine, why the hell didn't *Nissan Japan* use this engine in the S13, S14, S15 Silvia's, 180sx's and the GTI-R Pulsar?


*What about the SR? It was found in the X-Trail in Japan, so does that make it an SUV engine?* 

Actually, that's the SR20vet, not the SR20det.'

Big differance.


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

because they had better engines for their "sports" cars like the SR and RB. Over here in the states, the 240sx was more of a sports tourer. a vehicle that'd be sporty looking, but comfortable to ride in (why do you think some of the suspension bushings are liquid filled?)


----------



## nx2000 (Jan 24, 2003)

-=Martyr=- said:


> *The KA powerplant is a truck engine. FULL STOP!!
> 
> If the KA engine was designed to be a sports car engine, why the hell didn't Nissan Japan use this engine in the S13, S14, S15 Silvia's, 180sx's and the GTI-R Pulsar?
> 
> ...


you also have to look at when these cars came out. Turbocharged cars werent that popular in the early 90's PLUS that would steal 300zx sales. Why buy a 300, when you can buy a 240 for less. I think this arguement is GAY. Who cares. I have seen pics/videos of 500+ HP KA24DE monsters. Any engine can be built up. Emission sprobably had alot to do with it as well. And I hate that whole why dont the Japanese use te KA arguement. have you noticed almost Nissan CAR in japan is turbocharged. Yeah there are N/A sr20, shit there is even a N/A Rb25. But for the most part, a bigger part of their inventory is turbo. They have different emissions laws there. I hear that is why the new Skylines/GTR dont have RB's. Emissions.....


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

-=Martyr=- said:


> *The KA powerplant is a truck engine. FULL STOP!!
> *


ignorance...pure ignorance


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

"truck engine" is not a good reason. if you have a GOOD (read: technical) reason, give it, but for any given price range i will be able to get more power from the KA24 than spending that same amount installing an SR20. for example:
-$3K for KA turbo kit w/ T4 & FMIC=250hp or
-$2k SR20+1.5K install=200hp. add $1K+ for a T3/4 & another $1K for the FMIC.

at this point the SR will cost $5500+ and make 300hp. all the KA24DET needs is a fuel pump & injectors ($500?) to beat that & it now runs me $3500.

p.s.-this thread is supposed to be about the RB!!! i know all i need about the KA and SR. i want info on the RB25DET!!!


----------



## Guest (May 28, 2003)

If i were you, choosing between the rb and ka should be simple....get the rb. most likely, the rb has less miles. i know you can get 200k out of the ka, but id rather not push it. 

I, personally, wouldnt choose either one of these engines, id go sr20det. WHY? simply because i like it better, just like how you like the rb more. 

Its not like the sr is meant to be some godly 900hp monster. its made for reliable, dependable hp. The car itself is made to be taken around turns...not take to the drag strip..ever wonder why you dont see to many there??? 

yes, the ka is a truck motor. it was put in the trucks BEFORE the 240's. i know its a moot point, but that is why i think of it as a truck motor. on the other side, you can make good hp out of the ka, i know this.


----------



## Guest (May 28, 2003)

vsp3c said:


> *thre are different models of the sr..
> 
> 
> the KA powerplant found in the new RSX is also shared with the Civic Si as well as teh CR-V.. again..different models of the engine..
> *


since when is it called a KA in a honda. sorry its K20A..shit like that. These engines compeletey different.....


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

only the KA24E was in trucks first. when the KA24DE was introduced in the 240SX it was nowhere to be found in any trucks. true, they did release trucks with the DE later, but not in '91. besides, i have long since realised that it wasn't originally intended to be a performance engine, but rather as a dual purpose engine. nissan didn't want to spoil the sales of the 300ZX by giving it a turbo, but they did design the KA with many performance minded concessions, especially if you add boost. DOHC, low compression, iron block, oil squirters, high port head, etc. all make it perfect for turbocharged duty.


----------



## Guest (May 29, 2003)

sorry, i should of specified, yes you are correct about the 24e being in the trucks, but not the 24de. untill later. 

I see why nissan didnt want to turbo the 240. 

the KA24DE is a perfect engine to boost, dont get me wrong, but i just prefer the sr20.


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

i like the SR20DET just fine. when i saw SCC's "$3000 silvia" i loved it. but their car was $800 and had a hole in the block. my KA24DE is running great and was just rebuilt before i got it. if i invest $3000 in it i can either have a 202hp SR20DET, or a 240hp KA24DET. after more investment it looks even better. another $3000? i've built my bottom end & upgraded the fuel system for 400-425hp. $3000 into the SR20 will get you a big turbo, FMIC, and the fuel system, good for 300-325hp.


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

I like the SR20DET because it's lighter. The vehicle will handle more neutrally with a lighter front end.

BTW, what is FMIC?


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

the SR20DET is only 3lb lighter than a KA24DE. granted, once i put a turbo it will be more, but if there were such an engine as a KA24DET people would probably swap SR20DET's out for them for the extra displacement.
FMIC=Front Mount InterCooler


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

Sou ka...

Wasn't the RB25DET the one that was like three pounds lighter than the KA24DE? Isn't the KA an iron block? I'll do some more research...


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

Ok, according to Unstable Hybrids, the SR (about 310lbs. from flywheel foward, according to 240sx.org) is 40lbs less than the KA and the RB is 60 lbs. more than the KA. Shaving 40lbs off the nose would be nice, also including the lighter silvia nose and an even lighter fibre hood. May not seem much, but less weight is better, even if it's just a couple of pounds.


----------



## Bumpin (Feb 18, 2003)

I would still rather keep the extra 40lbs for the extra .4 liters. But then again thats just my preference.


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

Displacement is a good thing (something all the old muscle car gear heads love), but dropping .4L and 40lbs. ain't that bad, also, there are more parts to be found with the SR20 than the KA24, not to mention the sr's reliability.


----------



## Bumpin (Feb 18, 2003)

True there are more parts to be found for the SR but 40lbs aint crap. Thats like removing your a/c compressor. Its pointless to take the time to remove the whole thing. Just take the belt off. I don't think losing .4l is worth 40lbs. But then again thats just me.
But there are a lot of parts to be found for the KA. I know i've been working my @ss off trying to find them. LoL


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

Well, like i said in one of the threads before (i don't remember which one). I'm gonna try to create a psuedo Silvia. I'd also like to keep A/C because it can get pretty warm here in washington. Also, i'm planning to move back to florida to complete my college education. I won't be using A/C to keep me cool, i'll be using it to keep me dry (its a flippin sauna there!). But just whatever weight i can get rid of or shift it for a better balance (like battery in the trunk). If weight wasn't an issue, i would have gone for the RB25DET (something i'm planning later on in the future if i decide to go for a 180SX project)


----------



## Bumpin (Feb 18, 2003)

Yeah thats cool. I would keep the a/c also. But if I wanted a little extra from the motor I would take the belt off. Its always a lot easier throwing a belt on than installing a whole compressor. Here in cali it gets hot but I guess you can always just roll down your windows and speed up to keep you cool. You should take your bumper supports off if you want to get rid of some weight. I mean when your going that fast a bumper support aint gonna do crap if you god forbid crash. So theres another weight reduction you might wanna think about.


----------



## Guest (Jun 1, 2003)

but with all the weight reduction the 240's near perfect balance will be comprimised also.. but i guess it really just depends if u want to use the car for drift or drag.. im more of a drifter myself but ill be running 10's on the strip before too long


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

Gripen said:


> *Displacement is a good thing (something all the old muscle car gear heads love), but dropping .4L and 40lbs. ain't that bad, also, there are more parts to be found with the SR20 than the KA24, not to mention the sr's reliability. *


so ur saying the KA isn't reliable?


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

i was just getting the weight #'s from SCC, which weighed the two with trannies at 490 (SR) & 493 (KA), but that was the KA24E not the DE. i don't know how much weight difference the E & DE have, but i don't think its 37lbs. as far as the KA's reliability, i don't think i've ever seen a more reliable engine, including honda's. the only reason they die is bc ppl who don't know what they're doing just slap on a turbo and then crank the boost further than the rest of the systems can handle. the same would happen on an SR20, but if you swapped that in you'er probably not dumb enough to try boosting 20psi with the stock fuel system.


----------



## lionel (May 13, 2003)

is the rb30 a det or a dett?


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

actually the RB30 is just E. no DOHC, no turbos.


----------



## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

*KA reliability*

I know that the KA is reliable and i wish those the best in tuning them. However, it's easier to find aftermarket parts for the SR. Also, since i became infatuated with the Silvia, my dream has been to create one. I won't be able to go for an SR swap immediately, but for the next couple of years before i have enough money, i'll tune the KA (nothing too serious though).

I didn't know that they were so close in weight though. I've been to several sites with the weights posted and the KA has always weighed like 30-70 lbs. more. hmm...


----------



## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

true, you can't just find parts for the KA as easily as for the SR20 or a honda, but trust me, anything you could want is available from at least one company. you may have to search a little harder and have less of a choice of brands, but everything from intakes and cams to turbo kits and built internals IS available. the only problem i ran into was that the KA's 2-stage timing chain makes it difficult to make adj cam gears, but now JWT even has those! if there's a part that's made for the SR20 that you don't think is made for the KA24 please tell us. i bet someone here knows where to get it for the KA too.


----------



## civc_eater_altma (Mar 13, 2004)

*the new guy*

does the ka24de have a compatable engine to bell housings
like and swap from the ka24de to over head cam v6
using the ka tranny is it ?

just asking 




94 altma 16.5 in the.25 :cheers:


----------



## Kelso (Apr 29, 2003)

holy shit....this thread is like 9 months old....


----------



## Nizmodore (May 9, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> actually the RB30 is just E. no DOHC, no turbos.


Sorry the rb30et was built, its not in any nissan car at all. The Holden VL Commodore turbo has one as stock. www.calaisturbo.com for more info 

The rb's were not designed for nissan, rather nissan designed them for holden.....the later nissan versions had twin cams etc, by that time the contract for nissan to build motors for holden had finished....

You can put any twin cam head from the rb25 or rb26 on the rb30 block. This is done quite a bit in Australia.

As for a supercharged rb, been there done that, I'm currently working on superchargeing a rb25de vvt.....

My old supercharged rb30e.....rb30er 

http://redline.icrystal.org/index.php?page=kaboom


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

geez whatever happend to bizzy b and gripen and converted =/


----------



## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

and eysip?? =/


----------



## civc_eater_altma (Mar 13, 2004)

*the new guy*

the ka 24 what is compatable for an up grade
i know Q45 has one peace that can be 
the throttle body the Q45 
has a bigger one 
what else can be bolted on :fluffy: ?


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

civc_eater_altma said:


> the ka 24 what is compatable for an up grade
> i know Q45 has one peace that can be
> the throttle body the Q45
> has a bigger one
> what else can be bolted on :fluffy: ?


you need to go to school and take some english classes.


----------



## Mini-Skyline (Sep 12, 2003)

Uhh Rb is superior to the sr in almost everyway. What way it isnt you ask? Chi ching! Cash, and if youre looking to being modding your car your better have some anyways.


----------



## Kelso (Apr 29, 2003)

um sorry to burst your bubble but the RB20DET is cheaper...parts are everywhere for the SR, THAT is how it is superior in one way.thats the only thing though in my mind.


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

the thread is RB25 vs KA24... not SR vs RB.


----------



## Mini-Skyline (Sep 12, 2003)

lol my bad, I meant to say KA. But I did mention that the only thing KA has on an RB is the difference in MONEY as in my other post.


----------



## Loki (Jan 12, 2004)

who ever says the KA24E isnt reliable, :dumbass: my KA has 230K miles on it and runs PERFECT!!! i havent even done a rebuilt yet, and not even the previous 2 owners. :cheers:


----------



## Nizmodore (May 9, 2003)

Any engine is relaible, as long as its maintained correctly.......

As with the RB's, well, I've owned quite a few, and if you LOOK after them they are fine.....

RB gets my vote, simply becasue I'm so fimilar with it....


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

drift240sxdrag said:


> to all the Ka haters out there...
> if the KA sucks so bad
> give me hard proof why
> 
> note: Truck engine is a gay answer and is not proof


I think that none of the KA lovers on this thread has actualy attemtped to build a high powered KA. A KA is a fine engine if you keep the revs below 7000 rpm and the boost to where the engine is not putting out much more than 300 hp. Surpass these and you start coming up against the structural limits of the block. At my work, there is extensive race development of the KA's and they have all sorts of issues when the above parameters are passed.

Bad harmonic vibration hammers the motor apart, to the point where the block cracks in half at the main caps. The crank breaks as well. When you load a healthy KA on the dyno, the harmonics causes the engine to waver on the dyno to the point where the dyno's power absorbtion unit cant contain the waivering. The engine just strains and goes wawawawawawa the harmonics building up to tear the enigne apart.

Of all my friends that have attemeted to build over 400 hp KA's all of them have experianced mulit engine failure excpet for one and he babys his car and only drives in the 400 hp range on the dyno or for special occasions.

So love the KA all you want, its fine for lower power and lower rev applications but if you desire 400, 500 or more hp, the RB will simply kill it. This is based on real life professional racing engine building and data. Most people on the internet just have opinions. I mean how many peope giving KA advice on this thread even have a KA with more than 400 hp or even 300 hp?

Mike


----------



## nismosean (Oct 31, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> the SR20DET is only 3lb lighter than a KA24DE. granted, once i put a turbo it will be more, but if there were such an engine as a KA24DET people would probably swap SR20DET's out for them for the extra displacement.
> FMIC=Front Mount InterCooler


I beg to differ. I took my RS13 to the scale before I did the swap. Before it was 2720 and after it was 2680 so that is actually 40lbs lighter. The number you are getting is from SCC and if you read it right they say that the full SR with everything is 3 pounds lighter than just the KA block with no add ons. Add ons being the altenator, power steering, AC, and things like that. So the SR is clearly lighter. also the power bands are different in all of the engine.


----------



## nismosean (Oct 31, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> for example:
> -$3K for KA turbo kit w/ T4 & FMIC=250hp or
> -$2k SR20+1.5K install=200hp. add $1K+ for a T3/4 & another $1K for the FMIC.
> 
> ...


You would be wrong about those prices.

3k for the turbo kit for the KA and then labor to install.

1500 for SR/tranny/harness/ignitor/CAS + we will say 1k for the FMIC even tho they are more like 850 shipped. and then 500 for a fuel pump and boost controller.

Then both will be at the 250rwhp range and parts will be the same. You might skip out with labor since the Turbo upgrade isnt as much as the whole engie swap but it can be. So the prices for that are about the same.


----------



## kaptainkrollio (Jul 29, 2003)

you can put together your own turbo thing for about 1k, and ic are only that expensive new. plus an sr20 motorset runs more about 2k-2.5k


----------



## nismosean (Oct 31, 2003)

kaptainkrollio said:


> you can put together your own turbo thing for about 1k, and ic are only that expensive new. plus an sr20 motorset runs more about 2k-2.5k


you can bargain shop and get a motorset for about 1500-2000. I know that the IC is that much new. I am only comparing new parts besides the engines.


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

i could turbo my KA for under a grand easily. i had it all figured out a few months ago because i was going to turbo a KA24DE. then i bought an S13 with a KA24E so i'm not going that route anymore. but those SR motorsets you find for 1500 arent worth a dime. you'll end up spending more money buying replacement parts or fixing things on it before you can put the engine in the car.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> i could turbo my KA for under a grand easily. i had it all figured out a few months ago because i was going to turbo a KA24DE. then i bought an S13 with a KA24E so i'm not going that route anymore. but those SR motorsets you find for 1500 arent worth a dime. you'll end up spending more money buying replacement parts or fixing things on it before you can put the engine in the car.


A one grand turbo KA will do one thing fast. BOOM!

Mike


----------



## akihabro (Aug 12, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> does the displacement per cylinder really matter? i was just refering to the overall displacement. (SR20:2.0, KA24:2.4, RB25:2.5) i mean, an SR20 n RB20 will have pretty similar output even though the RB obviously has only 2/3 the displacement per cylinder, right? if individual cylinder displacement matters, why?


look at the displacement of some muscle cars and tell me why they were come of the most powerful cars agian?


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> A one grand turbo KA will do one thing fast. BOOM!
> 
> Mike


just because you can get parts cheap doesnt mean that they wont be reliable. i have access to a 20x12x2inch FMIC that works perfectly for 150, access to a T04E turbo that works perfectly for probably 200 or so, injectors for free, all oil lines and such are dumb cheap, a cast iron manifold is dumb cheap, a Z32 MAF for like 50, and the most expensive part would be the a fuel computer, also not expensive. of course with a T04E, you'd want some rods and pistons, but that's no big deal either.


----------



## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

Rods and pistons will set you back $1000 in parts alone.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> just because you can get parts cheap doesnt mean that they wont be reliable. i have access to a 20x12x2inch FMIC that works perfectly for 150, access to a T04E turbo that works perfectly for probably 200 or so, injectors for free, all oil lines and such are dumb cheap, a cast iron manifold is dumb cheap, a Z32 MAF for like 50, and the most expensive part would be the a fuel computer, also not expensive. of course with a T04E, you'd want some rods and pistons, but that's no big deal either.


Thats still going to cost more that $1000. Like retail for those parts mentioned is over $3000. FMC-$300+, manifold- $300+, turbo- $600+, ECU+ 500, Injectors, fuel pump and fuel rail $600, IC pipes and downpipe, $300+, plumbing and fittings $100 (with cheesy stuff), BOV $100. Thats $2800 for all bottom of the line stuff.

You cannot trubo a KA24 for $1000 bucks relaibly. I mean have you even ever turboed a car or even built a fast car?

Mike


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> Thats still going to cost more that $1000. Like retail for those parts mentioned is over $3000. FMC-$300+, manifold- $300+, turbo- $600+, ECU+ 500, Injectors, fuel pump and fuel rail $600, IC pipes and downpipe, $300+, plumbing and fittings $100 (with cheesy stuff), BOV $100. Thats $2800 for all bottom of the line stuff.
> 
> You cannot trubo a KA24 for $1000 bucks relaibly. I mean have you even ever turboed a car or even built a fast car?
> 
> Mike


did you even look at the prices i listed? a buddy of mine turboed his KA last year for under a grand. another guy i know has all the parts to do it except the manifold and he has yet to spend a dime. it's all about knowing where to look. oh yeah, the guy running the already turbo KA is putting down just over 300whp since last year for under a grand. tell me that's not reliable.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> did you even look at the prices i listed? a buddy of mine turboed his KA last year for under a grand. another guy i know has all the parts to do it except the manifold and he has yet to spend a dime. it's all about knowing where to look. oh yeah, the guy running the already turbo KA is putting down just over 300whp since last year for under a grand. tell me that's not reliable.


Yeah like getting parts for free and stuff is not what happens with most people. Plus free means no choice with what your are getting. You think you can maybe get a "TO4E" and you are not even sure what sort of turbo it is, is not turboing a car correctly. There are many different trim and housing combinations for a TO4E and how would you know if this combination is sized correctly for a KA?

Unless you know exactly what you are doing and network a lot and are a good fabrictor, you are not going to build anything decent turboed for a grand. I can't do it and I am very well connected and experianced.

As far as your buddies 300 hp KA. If it has a stock bottom end, I would like to see it do even one session on a road course at 300 hp. In fact I would like you see how any of these one grand turbo systems will live under real performance situations, not putting around on the street.

I would bet if you added up all of the recepts, any of these one grand cars would have way more than one grand into the turbo system or they are total piles of crap. From what you describe, I don't think you have ever turboed a car or ever built a fast car.

Mike


----------



## Loki (Jan 12, 2004)

Morepower2 :cheers:


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> Yeah like getting parts for free and stuff is not what happens with most people. Plus free means no choice with what your are getting. You think you can maybe get a "TO4E" and you are not even sure what sort of turbo it is, is not turboing a car correctly. There are many different trim and housing combinations for a TO4E and how would you know if this combination is sized correctly for a KA?
> 
> Unless you know exactly what you are doing and network a lot and are a good fabrictor, you are not going to build anything decent turboed for a grand. I can't do it and I am very well connected and experianced.
> 
> ...


you dumb ass. learn how to read. i said "maybe" about the price of the turbo. if i wanted it i could easily acquire it with all the specs. but i dont want it so i didnt find all that stuff out. a KA can easily hold 300hp and be run through the paces. the car i spoke of that has 300whp, is basically a daily drifter. in case you're that stupid not to know what that means, it means that he drives his car daily and drifts it just as much. and add up all the reciepts and it'll still be under a grand and not be a total piece of shit. go look around, plenty of people have done it. just because you cant, doesnt mean that others cant either.


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

watch wut u say to him... he is a admin/super mod *power to ban*


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> you dumb ass. learn how to read. i said "maybe" about the price of the turbo. if i wanted it i could easily acquire it with all the specs. but i dont want it so i didnt find all that stuff out. a KA can easily hold 300hp and be run through the paces. the car i spoke of that has 300whp, is basically a daily drifter. in case you're that stupid not to know what that means, it means that he drives his car daily and drifts it just as much. and add up all the reciepts and it'll still be under a grand and not be a total piece of shit. go look around, plenty of people have done it. just because you cant, doesnt mean that others cant either.


I bet that you cannot do it. I bet plenty of other people have not either. I have have been around enough high powered KA's to know that at 300 whp, they are not going to live long at least in a real racing enviorment. Jacking around on the steet is not reall racing.

As a dumbass, I challange you then. Get your $1000 turbo car and lets add up the recepts for the retail price of the parts including fabrication labor and the exhaust and all perifrials needed to get the car going. Then lets dyno it, then lets go to a NASA or Speedtrial track event. If it makes 300 whp on a stock motor and holds together for a day of hotlapping, I'll give you $2000 twice the cost of your turbosystem. If you cannot do this for $1000 retail or the car fails to make 300 whp and hold together on the track you owe me $2000.

I don't need to call you names to show just how wrong you are. I'l put my money where my mouth is.

Mike


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

drift240sxdrag said:


> watch wut u say to him... he is a admin/super mod *power to ban*


I am not gonna ban someone for having an opinion. 

Mike


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> I bet that you cannot do it. I bet plenty of other people have not either. I have have been around enough high powered KA's to know that at 300 whp, they are not going to live long at least in a real racing enviorment. Jacking around on the steet is not reall racing.
> 
> As a dumbass, I challange you then. Get your $1000 turbo car and lets add up the recepts for the retail price of the parts including fabrication labor and the exhaust and all perifrials needed to get the car going. Then lets dyno it, then lets go to a NASA or Speedtrial track event. If it makes 300 whp on a stock motor and holds together for a day of hotlapping, I'll give you $2000 twice the cost of your turbosystem. If you cannot do this for $1000 retail or the car fails to make 300 whp and hold together on the track you owe me $2000.
> 
> ...


why would i make a challenge to you on something that i dont plan on doing to my car? i have nothing to prove to you. i know i could do it and that's satisfaction enough. there are plenty of things that you dont need in order to get a turbo car running. you dont need any gauges, they are just nice to have. you dont need a turbo timer, you just have to let the car idle for a couple minutes before getting out. you dont need an aftermarket BOV, a first gen DSM works great. you dont need brand new parts. the only parts you need to find from the aftermarket are a fuel computer and a manifold. if i cared that much if you believed me or not, then i would do this and prove you wrong, but i dont care about what you want to believe. you can keep your money, you arent worth the time or the effort to me. i have plans for my car and they dont invlove proving you wrong or the KA at all. but if you want to find out if you can get a reliable 300whp for under a grand, then give me a grand and a car and i'll give you everything you need to do it.


----------



## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

Having been involved in and doing the work on quite a few NA-->Turbo Sr20DE conversions and turbo upgrades on stock SR's to approximate 300rwhp I can say unless you are getting parts for free or very very cheap, $1000 isnt going to do it.

However as an example a mate of mine added a turbo to his SR20det. DET manifold and turbo - $250. DET injectors $150, DET ECU, $150, Fuel pump $50, DET intercooler piping $100, installation of oil and coolant lines $150, SR downpipe and front pipe $200, hoses and vacuum lines $50, DET intercooler free =$1100. This got him 160rwhp.

Adding a turbo to a KA is more expensive due to there not being a turbo variant out of factory. The reason the SR20DE-> DET is cheap is you can use all the DET bits that are usually upgraded by DET owners who get rid of them for cheap or free. If you have to start getting fabricated or aftermarket bits and pieces your costs are going to rise quickly.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> why would i make a challenge to you on something that i dont plan on doing to my car? i have nothing to prove to you. i know i could do it and that's satisfaction enough. there are plenty of things that you dont need in order to get a turbo car running. you dont need any gauges, they are just nice to have. you dont need a turbo timer, you just have to let the car idle for a couple minutes before getting out. you dont need an aftermarket BOV, a first gen DSM works great. you dont need brand new parts. the only parts you need to find from the aftermarket are a fuel computer and a manifold. if i cared that much if you believed me or not, then i would do this and prove you wrong, but i dont care about what you want to believe. you can keep your money, you arent worth the time or the effort to me. i have plans for my car and they dont invlove proving you wrong or the KA at all. but if you want to find out if you can get a reliable 300whp for under a grand, then give me a grand and a car and i'll give you everything you need to do it.


I know you can't do it. You know you are wrong and can't admit it or rise to the challange to prove me wrong. You speak fighting words but can't back it up. Who called who a dumbass? If you put a $1000 turbo system on a KA it will just be a unrelieable piece of shit, booty punkass street ricer car. Obviously you have never built a fast car or a turbo car. You just have "plans" and are spreading your opinion like its factual.

Whatever, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You will never have a KA powered turbo car that is anywhere near fast or reliable with $1000 no matter what you think you know. 

Mike


----------



## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

blah blah blah


If you say you can do it, then do it, don't come here and say you can but that you're not going to........might as well have kept your mouth shut to begin with.


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

like i said before, i know i can do it and dont care to prove any of you wrong. why would i change what i have planned for my car to do so? i already have my CA18DET ordered and i'm not going to cancel my order just to prove to you people that i know what i'm doing. you dont make a damn bit of difference to me.


----------



## BlueBOB (Jan 29, 2003)

well, this is interesting...

Mike, considering *retail* price, yes, I think even 93blackSER would agree, that it would be next to impossible to turbo a KA for under a grand. But as you have argued in the KA vs SR thread, if you know what you're doing, which I will vouch for 93blackSER that he does, you can build a reliable motor. *AND* a lot of people have their own random crazy hookups (including myself) where you can get great deals from. Just because you might not be able to do it, doesn't mean someone else can't.

I'd even put money down that he could do it for under grand.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

BlueBOB said:


> well, this is interesting...
> 
> Mike, considering *retail* price, yes, I think even 93blackSER would agree, that it would be next to impossible to turbo a KA for under a grand. But as you have argued in the KA vs SR thread, if you know what you're doing, which I will vouch for 93blackSER that he does, you can build a reliable motor. *AND* a lot of people have their own random crazy hookups (including myself) where you can get great deals from. Just because you might not be able to do it, doesn't mean someone else can't.
> 
> I'd even put money down that he could do it for under grand.


I know you can't do it if you don't count free or bartered parts for a grand. I know a bone stock KA24DE won't reliably put down 300 whp for long either. Thats why I contend that giving the advice that you can build a turbo KA for $1000 is bad advice. I don't consider running it on the street for a year to be reliable either, I consider being able to take it on the track and pound on it to be reliable. So it depends what you consider reliable. I have seen plenty of turbo stock bottom end KA's come back with ventilated blocks.

As far as just putting any turbo like "I think its a TO4E" is plenty bad advice. The TO4E comes in many variations of trim and housing size. A ture TO4E is not even that good of a turbo for a streetable car, typicaly you only use the compressor section as the turbine on a TO4E is heavy and only moderatly efficent. To size a turbo you need to look at the compressor map and match it point by point with the engines mass flow. If you just throw a turbo on a motor, you can run into compressor surge which will destroy the turbo and maybe harm the motor or you will have a laggy poor driving car that will hit the rev limiter before you hit much boost.

Stock compression motors with cast pistons are picky and unforgiving about engine managment, cast pistons are fragile and KA's have easily blown head gaskets that won't tolerate much detonation. Not much room for error or coming sort of close with free or bartered parts.

Most of the KA backers havent even built their motors. The few that have sucessfuly have put a lot of time, expertese and money into their projects. Most have opinions not backed by experiance or any sort of data other than anecdotal from questionable sourses. The KA is a good motor as long as you keep the RPM down. This will limit your power turbo or no turbo. 

Mike


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

the 240 i speak of with 300whp is not just daily driven, it's also drifted quite frequently and has been in a few east coast competitions. now dont tell me that that isnt reliability. the T04E i speak of is also off of a KA engine. the guy who had went SR just for the hell of it. if i wanted it, i could get it with all the specs on it. the advice i have given isnt bad. you only think so because you havent personally seen it done. i have. that's the difference. i've seen the car being put through its' paces, being drifted all over, being driven daily. and i know he spent less than a grand installing the turbo. you cant prove me wrong on this. dont believe something simply because you havent done it or havent personally seen it done. you might as well tell me that i cant get my CA installed with an FMIC and turbo back 3inch exhaust for 2300USD. and yeah, that is what i'm paying. and yeah, there is a warranty. dont tell me i dont know what i'm talking about. and if you knew anything about KA's, you would know that with 2 manifolds and a welder, you can easily custom make an equal length turbo manifold with the help of a turbo flange and wastegate flange. i've seen that done as well. so there's also a manifold for me for free seeing that i have 2 stock manifolds in my garage and access to a welder. but you're so knowledgeable about KA's, so you know how to do that, right? doubt it. go spend some time on a _real_ tech forum and you'll reallize you dont know half of what you think you do.


----------



## smokey79 (Mar 22, 2004)

wow the flame wars are ragin in here


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

not really... more of a intelligent debate. if it was a flame war i'd post more


----------



## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> the 240 i speak of with 300whp is not just daily driven, it's also drifted quite frequently and has been in a few east coast competitions. now dont tell



You still haven't proved your point. Put up or shutup


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> the 240 i speak of with 300whp is not just daily driven, it's also drifted quite frequently and has been in a few east coast competitions. now dont tell me that that isnt reliability. the T04E i speak of is also off of a KA engine. the guy who had went SR just for the hell of it. if i wanted it, i could get it with all the specs on it. the advice i have given isnt bad. you only think so because you havent personally seen it done. i have. that's the difference. i've seen the car being put through its' paces, being drifted all over, being driven daily. and i know he spent less than a grand installing the turbo. you cant prove me wrong on this. dont believe something simply because you havent done it or havent personally seen it done. you might as well tell me that i cant get my CA installed with an FMIC and turbo back 3inch exhaust for 2300USD. and yeah, that is what i'm paying. and yeah, there is a warranty. dont tell me i dont know what i'm talking about. and if you knew anything about KA's, you would know that with 2 manifolds and a welder, you can easily custom make an equal length turbo manifold with the help of a turbo flange and wastegate flange. i've seen that done as well. so there's also a manifold for me for free seeing that i have 2 stock manifolds in my garage and access to a welder. but you're so knowledgeable about KA's, so you know how to do that, right? doubt it. go spend some time on a _real_ tech forum and you'll reallize you dont know half of what you think you do.


I may not know much but I could build a damn fast KA if I wanted to. I have been involved with racing GT3 NASPORT KA's and have seen what happens to them when pushed to the limit. I have also helped a couple of friends build 450 hp turbo KA's and seen the problems inherit with this engine when pushed to the limit under boost, even when built well, but I guess I don't know squat compared to you. Thats cool, I can always learn. 

If you know so much about how to build a turbo KA but won't put your mony where your mouth is, please give me the exact recipe for a $1000 turbo set up, tell me what turbo you would use, what trim compresser and turbine, which wheel family, what A/R housings? What intercooler? What size tubing for IC and exhaust parts, which wastegate. What engine managment? which injectors? what fuel pump. Remember fabrication costs are not free for most people. Then lets add up some prices. Please educate me, I want to learn from your wisdom. I am a dumbass, I spend way to much on motors and turbo systems. I am not flaming you, I am serious I want to learn.

If you did take me up on my challange, if you could win, think of all the money you would have, you would spend less than $1000, you would make $1000 profit, then you could sell your turbo stuff for probably a lot more than the $1000 you invested. You could have a bunch of money to invest in your CA project. I can put my money where my mouth is. But you live on the east coast and its not even practical to do this. Damn why do they all seem to live on the east coast?

Mike


----------



## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

Maybe he is talking about an electric supercharger  Power response and reliability. I would definitely be interested in a 1k 300HP reliable stock bottom end turbo kit. Or was this guy just talking out of his ass.


----------



## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

electric supercharger?? uhh..


----------



## BlueBOB (Jan 29, 2003)

vsp3c said:


> electric supercharger?? uhh..


 it's a joke...


----------



## kaptainkrollio (Jul 29, 2003)

i've seen em for sale somewhere.


----------



## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

BlueBOB said:


> it's a joke...


 :loser: i'm 15, i'm allowed to be stupid :fluffy:


----------



## Bumpin (Feb 18, 2003)

Well me and my friend are gonna make a KA-T this weekend and I will let all you guys know what happens when were done. It's only costing us $100 for the turbo and all the other parts my friend is making himself. But like you guys said its only cuz of our hook up. But yeah I will let you guys know what happens after this weekend.


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> I may not know much but I could build a damn fast KA if I wanted to. I have been involved with racing GT3 NASPORT KA's and have seen what happens to them when pushed to the limit. I have also helped a couple of friends build 450 hp turbo KA's and seen the problems inherit with this engine when pushed to the limit under boost, even when built well, but I guess I don't know squat compared to you. Thats cool, I can always learn.
> 
> If you know so much about how to build a turbo KA but won't put your mony where your mouth is, please give me the exact recipe for a $1000 turbo set up, tell me what turbo you would use, what trim compresser and turbine, which wheel family, what A/R housings? What intercooler? What size tubing for IC and exhaust parts, which wastegate. What engine managment? which injectors? what fuel pump. Remember fabrication costs are not free for most people. Then lets add up some prices. Please educate me, I want to learn from your wisdom. I am a dumbass, I spend way to much on motors and turbo systems. I am not flaming you, I am serious I want to learn.
> 
> ...


quit acting stupid. i know you're not stupid. but i dont have anything to prove to you. i dont have anything to prove to anyone. the whole reason for the build-up of my car is to do it. and no matter what i say to you, you're not going to believe me and that's fine. i dont care if you believe me or not, i dont care how many times you call me out. you can keep talking if you want but i'm done with you, this is pointless. you're not going to believe me and i dont care to prove it to you so this thread will go no where. 



luis said:


> You still haven't proved your point. Put up or shutup


shut up and do read the whole thread. you dont even know what the point was.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> quit acting stupid. i know you're not stupid. but i dont have anything to prove to you. i dont have anything to prove to anyone. the whole reason for the build-up of my car is to do it. and no matter what i say to you, you're not going to believe me and that's fine. i dont care if you believe me or not, i dont care how many times you call me out. you can keep talking if you want but i'm done with you, this is pointless. you're not going to believe me and i dont care to prove it to you so this thread will go no where.
> 
> 
> shut up and do read the whole thread. you dont even know what the point was.


Its all good, belive in yourself then, I wish you luck with your CA. 

Mike


----------



## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

> Its all good, belive in yourself then,I wish you luck with your CA.


awwww. how come other threads don't end like this. damn we are a bunch of asswholes... 

serious post^^


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

drift240sxdrag said:


> awwww. how come other threads don't end like this. damn we are a bunch of asswholes...
> 
> serious post^^


well what can we say? neither of us belives the other and never will so, just let it go. It was intertaining for everyone else and now there is nothing left to say about it. Why get all pissed off over a stupid internet forum. I really do want his real project to come out well.

Mike


----------



## kaptainkrollio (Jul 29, 2003)

drift240sxdrag said:


> awwww. how come other threads don't end like this. damn we are a bunch of asswholes...
> 
> serious post^^


 asshole. unless your a whole ass


----------



## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

actually, my project might be coming to halt now. it might be postponed if it doesnt come to a halt. i have some things i have to work out that has to do with an S14 and my S13. i'll post a thread when i know what's going on.


----------

