# Electric Forced induction



## GetsomeGOJO (Apr 4, 2004)

So why couldn't it work? I've been thinking about shop-vacs with waste gates installed and still can't figure why it wouldn't work except for the noise and limited reliability of the electric motor. Or those 12vDC dirt devils.

It's not all that crazy is it?


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## almera_n15_1999 (Sep 7, 2003)

I think its mostly down to force. Electric motors can produce the HP but they can not produce the torque needed for these kinds of things. They havent got enoth force to force the air through so they just cause a restriction basically making them pointless.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

almera_n15_1999 said:


> I think its mostly down to force. Electric motors can produce the HP but they can not produce the torque needed for these kinds of things. They havent got enoth force to force the air through so they just cause a restriction basically making them pointless.


uh... no offense that statement... wrong... 
Torque = (5252 x HP)/rpm

I remember it was discussed before, the electric super/turbochargers can create the psi but are limited in flow.


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## Harris (Nov 11, 2002)

It's all about the cfm. These electric turbos don't create enough cfm (has to do with flow of air) to make noticeable boost. That's why conventional forced induction like superchargers and turbochargers are more popular and deliver the best results in comparison to the stuff you're talking about.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

this is my outlook on electric turbos:

if it was so great, someone would have done it LONG before 2004.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

GetsomeGOJO said:


> So why couldn't it work? I've been thinking about shop-vacs with waste gates installed and still can't figure why it wouldn't work except for the noise and limited reliability of the electric motor. Or those 12vDC dirt devils.
> 
> It's not all that crazy is it?


It takes about 16-18 hp to produce about 8-10 psi in a 4 cylinder engine around 1500-2000cc using a compressor with an adiabatic efficency of about 65-70%. A shop vac, weed whacker, CPU fan, leaf blower can't even come close to this sort of flow and pressure ratio.

Its so crazy, I have this argument about 5 times a year, including a flame war with the owner of a company that sells these sort of stupid things, the E-Ram. A shop vac would be an intake restrictor and you would lose power.

By the way, to prove my point, I dyno tested the E-Ram on a SE-R and it lost about 6 whp. The owner of E-Ram disputed my testing and my math.

The only electric supercharger that works is the Thomas Knight system that uses 3 huge motors to power up a Eaton supercharger. Its awsome giving full boost at any speed desired. The drawback is that it can compelty discharge your battery in about 15-20 seconds of use and it takes about 10-20 minutes of running to get the battery back up. If you are serious, you have to have a twin charging system and a secondary battery pack.

16-18 HP is a lot of amp's at 12 volts!

Mike


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> 16-18 HP is a lot of amp's at 12 volts!
> Mike


994-1118 amps to be specific!


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

James said:


> 994-1118 amps to be specific!


and my turbo setup will use 0 amps... hmmm funny isnt it


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## hot_rod_kid (May 10, 2004)

the e-ram is designed to creat only like 1 psi of boost .... its realy only usefull on engines that curently have breathing problems .... 

theres hardly a 4 cylinder out there that has bad enough breathing problems to require a 1psi s/c unit ... its about enough boost to correct for elevation above sea level ..... 

the eram site says it draws 100 amps at "max output" ..... 100 damn amps ???? thats it ? 

and correct me if im wrong, but doesnt "max amps" spike on an electric motor some at the same point when the motor is under maximum strain ??? 

that could easily mean the eram would be doing 75 amps worth of actual work at full boost, and the other 25 is just wasted heat and noise 

in fact ... if i remember correctly .... all the fans ive seen, "max amperage draw" is usualy 3 or 4 times "no restriction amperage draw" ...... 

but anyways .... 100 watts = like 83 watts .... 83 wats isnt enough power to light my bedroom !, let alone boost my vehical ... 

just my not so humble, if you dont like it, dont re-read it, opinion


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## GetsomeGOJO (Apr 4, 2004)

Leaf blower.

I had a chance to mess around with a Stihl Backpack Style Leafblower last friday. When I placed my hand in front of the nozzle, it seemed to generate a little more pressure than it's being given credit for as it pushed my hand back pretty well. But, It seemed to bog the engine down, I guess because the Leaf blower exhaust goes right down that tube too.

Odd side note. In High School I built a small hovercraft that ran on a couple of leaf blowers. I guess they're pretty cool tools but I doubt they'd make good ghetto superchargers.

My mind rambles along...


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## jlpearl (Jun 9, 2002)

I am intersted in some real world testing of this: www.alphamaleperformance.com  

As an electrical engineer it is POSSIBLE to do something productive with electrics, its just questionable as to how productive due to weight issues. I feel that something like the alphamale alternator/generator could work. It might be useful to allow a really big turbo to be used. The electric generator could spin it into the turbos boost range. Maybe a capacitor bank could store enough energy to really get the turbo going. Then turn the generator off since the car will stay in the boost range during shifting. What do you guys think about something like that. Something along the lines of a hybrid forced induction system, mostly for dragracing of course. The low end torque of electric motors is unreal, as can be seen by the 60' times in purpose built electric dragsters such as the one in the website below.

Also look at www.suckamps.com The van is pretty cool. ~josh


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## hot_rod_kid (May 10, 2004)

has everyone overlooked something simple here ? 

vortech / paxtons take their 16 hp off at the belts 

turbos take their 16 hp to spin in the form of exhaust restriction 

electric superchargers are still going to take THEIR 16-18 hp too ..... its just that they are going to do it in the form of extra alternators needed to run the electric motors ... AND in the form of making your engine run on less then 12 volts ...... 

properly grounding an engine can give u 5 extra hp ..... so what do you think the LOSS would be just for running a car on 11 volts instead of 12 ???? 

then you add the weight of a 4hp electric motor .... thats gonna be 75 pounds ..... add in an extra 1000 cca battery for reserve power ....

can you see how running an electric blower to make your 8 pounds of boost is trealy starting to add up into extra drag ?


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

i don't see a turbo taking 16hp in exhaust restriction, at low power.........it sure wouldn't be comparable to the power a s/c drains


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

at all.. if anything.. turbos make the exhaust way more efficient, because a turbo Sucks the exhaust out of hte cylandar.. making it a super vaccum...


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

not necessarily Chuck...there's more restriction from turbo but it's not as major as the hp use by a s/c


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## Dwntyme (Dec 18, 2002)

Harris said:


> It's all about the cfm. These electric turbos don't create enough cfm (has to do with flow of air) to make noticeable boost. That's why conventional forced induction like superchargers and turbochargers are more popular and deliver the best results in comparison to the stuff you're talking about.


True, But most/all the electric stuff out there has no compression chaimber like turbo's and superchargers. if someone could do this make them like conventional turbos you might have something. but the way they are being made now your right not enough pressure.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Chuck said:


> at all.. if anything.. turbos make the exhaust way more efficient, because a turbo Sucks the exhaust out of hte cylandar.. making it a super vaccum...


huh?

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

hot_rod_kid said:


> the e-ram is designed to creat only like 1 psi of boost .... its realy only usefull on engines that curently have breathing problems ....
> 
> theres hardly a 4 cylinder out there that has bad enough breathing problems to require a 1psi s/c unit ... its about enough boost to correct for elevation above sea level .....
> 
> ...


the e-ram is an intake restriction and turbulance producer, it flat doesnt work.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

GetsomeGOJO said:


> Leaf blower.
> 
> I had a chance to mess around with a Stihl Backpack Style Leafblower last friday. When I placed my hand in front of the nozzle, it seemed to generate a little more pressure than it's being given credit for as it pushed my hand back pretty well. But, It seemed to bog the engine down, I guess because the Leaf blower exhaust goes right down that tube too.
> 
> ...


there is no way its going to work.

Mike


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## gliscameria (Apr 14, 2004)

You have to take into consideration exactly how many times you are converting one form of energy into another and be able to account for those losses.

With an electric charger you are taking engine HP, converting that through the aleternator at a loss, converting that electricity back into motion in the electric motor at a loss and then taking what's left and using it to push some air. You have to worry about your efficiency at every one of those stages.

After all of these losses, who knows how many engine HP are lost before they make it to the blower. A non-electric charger doesn't have to deal with many of these losses and is thus much more efficient. Electric blowers as they stand are not efficient enough to provide much(if at all) gain.


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## WhiteFox (Sep 4, 2002)

^^^^^^The vaccume effect:

Once the turbine is spinning faster than the gasses pushing it (Like when the engine speed drops, i.e. shifting) a vaccume would be created. This is the same way as normal exhaust gasses pull as they travel through a N/A system.. only difference is that the turbine does the pulling instead of the exhaust gas itself.

Now, how big of an effect this has or how long it lasts (the turbine's inertia)is probably slim to nill.

Just some things to think about, though. Every detail counts!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

WhiteFox said:


> ^^^^^^The vaccume effect:
> 
> Once the turbine is spinning faster than the gasses pushing it (Like when the engine speed drops, i.e. shifting) a vaccume would be created. This is the same way as normal exhaust gasses pull as they travel through a N/A system.. only difference is that the turbine does the pulling instead of the exhaust gas itself.
> 
> ...


Sorry turbos don't work like that.

Mike


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

and now that we've covered, once again, that electric turbos are bogus crap....this thread is closed. Future threads will also be closed.


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