# Balance Shaft removal



## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

I dropped this note in another part of the forum, thought it better served here. I'm wanting to take the balance shaft out, anyone have a clue how? I have a UDP on order and I want to remove it then. I think ThaiB mentioned this in a earlier thread. Help!


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

I think you need a kit. JWT makes one if I'm not mistaken.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

OhTwoAltimaSE said:


> *I think you need a kit. JWT makes one if I'm not mistaken. *


Makes about 6 hp to the wheels just removing the shafts and the JWT unit makes 8-10 as it controls windage around the crank better.

Mike


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

What kind of install/removal is this? Something I need to take a mechanic or can Slurrpie and I tackle this?


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## rlvq35de (Oct 18, 2002)

*removal*

This mod is not easy, I would suggest doing it buy yourself without a service manual, unless you have torn down the bottom half of engines before. It really is a-lot of work, for so little IMO


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## SILENT_RUNNER (Oct 17, 2002)

Altim8GA said:


> *I dropped this note in another part of the forum, thought it better served here. I'm wanting to take the balance shaft out, anyone have a clue how? I have a UDP on order and I want to remove it then. I think ThaiB mentioned this in a earlier thread. Help! *


I remember seeing that thread, but it seemd to me the added vibration was not worth the HP. I could be way off though.


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## Slurppie (Oct 15, 2002)

*Re: removal*



rlvq35de said:


> *This mod is not easy, I would suggest doing it buy yourself without a service manual, unless you have torn down the bottom half of engines before. It really is a-lot of work, for so little IMO *


you mean you wouldnt suggest it without a service manual.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2002)

I never saw the thread on this subject, but I'd be hesitant to yank the balance shafts out of the QR if your car is a daily driver that you envision yourself driving a few years down the road. Unless your Altima is an all-out drag car, why take the risk of watching your engine vibrate its way out of the bay at 6000 rpm for a few horsepower?

The QR is a *big*, highly undersquare four cylinder with an 89 mm bore and a 100 mm (!) stroke. Such a design inherently lends itself to wicked second-order vibrations, which is why Nissan decided to equip it with two balance shafts, a first in its U.S. lineup. Removing them initially may not hurt anything other than the fillings in your teeth, but as the miles pile up the added vibration will be tough on journals, bearings and the like. Not good, methinks.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Balance Shaft removal*



SILENT_RUNNER said:


> *I remember seeing that thread, but it seemd to me the added vibration was not worth the HP. I could be way off though. *


The difference in vibration is very small, so small that a person not super familer with the car won't be able to tell.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

JKWright said:


> *I never saw the thread on this subject, but I'd be hesitant to yank the balance shafts out of the QR if your car is a daily driver that you envision yourself driving a few years down the road. Unless your Altima is an all-out drag car, why take the risk of watching your engine vibrate its way out of the bay at 6000 rpm for a few horsepower?
> 
> The QR is a big, highly undersquare four cylinder with an 89 mm bore and a 100 mm (!) stroke. Such a design inherently lends itself to wicked second-order vibrations, which is why Nissan decided to equip it with two balance shafts, a first in its U.S. lineup. Removing them initially may not hurt anything other than the fillings in your teeth, but as the miles pile up the added vibration will be tough on journals, bearings and the like. Not good, methinks. *


Balance shafts just cancel the second order natural up and down moment that all I-4 motors exhibit. The vibration that kills the motor is the torsional stuff that twists the crank and stresses the motors internal componets. The QR is an internaly balanced engine and removing the balance shafts does not affect this.

In fact if you have a highly moddifed QR, it is important to remove the balance shafts as seizing the shafts is one of the engines frist failure points. The balance shafts also create a great deal of crank windage and can contribute to oil control problems. Removing the balance shafts improves oil pressure and volume to the bearings as well.

On a QR removing the shafts results in a barily perceptable increse in vibration, the motor is still smoother than a KA24 and nearly as smooth as an SR20. As far as durabilty, Dave Colemans Pro-Rally QR has yet to suffer an engine problem in that punishing abuse of an engine.

The World Challange motor that Sunbelt Racing built has its balance shafts removed. It is common to remove the blance shafts on the Honda H22 and Mitsubishi 4G63 to improve reliablity and oiling on these motors as well.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: removal*



rlvq35de said:


> *This mod is not easy, I would suggest doing it buy yourself without a service manual, unless you have torn down the bottom half of engines before. It really is a-lot of work, for so little IMO *


To me this is very easy, easier than putting on a header. The gain is also substantial.

Mike


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## JBL85 (Oct 17, 2002)

Does anyone know about warranty issues?

Is this something you would want your Nissan Dealership doing to avoid voiding warranty...


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

JBL85 said:


> *Does anyone know about warranty issues?
> 
> Is this something you would want your Nissan Dealership doing to avoid voiding warranty... *


Like any internal engine mod it will void your engine warranty, but not other non-engine related parts.

Mike


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

I'm willing to bet that any problem you had with your transmission or drivetrain would be linked back to taking out the balance shaft. So you could kiss your warranty goodbye in those cases.

I've emailed JWT asking about this kit, as it was not listed on their website. I'll let you guys know what they come back with.


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> In fact if you have a highly moddifed QR,
> 
> 
> ...



Can you define highly moddified? Intake, pulley, and headers considered highly modded, or cams,ported, polished more along the lines of what you meant? I guess I'm talking about simple bolt on's (not turbo) equalling slightly modded.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Altim8GA said:


> *Can you define highly moddified? Intake, pulley, and headers considered highly modded, or cams,ported, polished more along the lines of what you meant? I guess I'm talking about simple bolt on's (not turbo) equalling slightly modded. *


I guess it means once you start getting insdie of the motor, like cams, plus all of the nomal bolt ons.

Mike


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## unleaded (Oct 16, 2002)

JKWright said:


> *The QR is a big, highly undersquare four cylinder with an 89 mm bore and a 100 mm (!) stroke. Such a design inherently lends itself to wicked second-order vibrations, which is why Nissan decided to equip it with two balance shafts, a first in its U.S. lineup. Removing them initially may not hurt anything other than the fillings in your teeth, but as the miles pile up the added vibration will be tough on journals, bearings and the like. Not good, methinks. *


i agree - it can't be good over the long term.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> * The QR is an internaly balanced engine and removing the balance shafts does not affect this.*]


Strictly speaking, all production engines are internally balanced. But that doesn't mean that an inherently raucous design such as a long-stroke inline four can't benefit substantially from balance shafts. That's why Nissan sucked it up and increased the cost and complexity of the QR25 by installing them.


> *
> In fact if you have a highly moddifed QR, it is important to remove the balance shafts as seizing the shafts is one of the engines frist failure points.*



I don't doubt this, as balance shafts are basically large counterrotating weights. In a track-only or off-road application, removing them wouldn't present a problem at all, as NVH are the last of the bottom rung of considerations in racing applications. But pulling them out of a family sedan that's still under warranty and driven to and from the grocery store twice a week seems overkill to me, particularly if you're talking about a *very* minor horsepower gain. The trade-off just is not worth it. To warp one of my favorite lines, "My warranty for a pair of balance shafts!"


> *
> On a QR removing the shafts results in a barily perceptable increse in vibration, the motor is still smoother than a KA24 and nearly as smooth as an SR20.*


Having owned two SR20s and a KA24, even sticking those two engines in the same sentence seems to me a bad idea. 

The term "barely perceptible" is of course relative. What's barely perceptible to a gung-ho-nitrous-equipped street rodder is overwhelming to John Four Door. Clearly, if the gain in adding a substantial amount of cost and complexity in the form of balance shafts in the QR25 were as small as you describe, the Nissan beancounters would never have approved their installation. Considering that the company couldn't be persuaded to part with an extra hundred-spot per Altima to upgrade the interior to, say, Malibu level, it makes no sense to assume that the company would drop several hundred on balance shafts that provide only "barely perceptible" decreases in NVH.

My advice: If your Altima or Sentra is a mild daily driver that you plan to keep for a few years and also in fact hope to sell for actual cash monies one day when you're done with it (rather than the alternative of wadding it up and tossing it into the ditch), leave the balance shafts in there.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

JKWright said:


> *Strictly speaking, all production engines are internally balanced. But that doesn't mean that an inherently raucous design such as a long-stroke inline four can't benefit substantially from balance shafts. That's why Nissan sucked it up and increased the cost and complexity of the QR25 by installing them.
> *
> 
> 
> ...



In the first Jarrod, you are wrong, there are many production engines that are externaly balanced, like most domestic engines!

As far as the validity of removing the balance shafts, no its not going to affect the engines durabilty and may even improve it under some conditions. The first few QR25's that were modifed for racing use failed because of extensive damage caused by balance shaft assembly failure. The shafts seize at high rpm, much past 6500 rpm in fact.

The reason for the balance shafts exsistance is not for durabilty but because the NVH target for the QR25 was to meet or exceed the NVH chariteristics of the VQ30DE engine. However I bet that many people wouldnot be able to tell that the balance shafts were removed if they were not promted, thats how subtile the differences are. In fact I had a hard time telling myself!

Plus for most people, finding 8-10 hp in a naturaly asperated engine is quite a large amount, especialy if its free hp without a fuel consumption penalty. This mod is also easily reversable, you can reinstall the balance shafts when you sell the car.

What you are stating as fact is only conjecture on your part and your opinion. You have never done any of these mods nor do you modify any of your cars. I have had these sorts of arguments with you on other forums before. In fact your famous Bosch spark plug argument was proven wrong once more data was avalible but after you dropped off that mailing list.

You are correct in your advice that if you are not a person into modding the car whose primary concern is to have a warranty and a lack of NVH, then don't remove the balance shafts, in fact don't consider any modifcations, keep your car totaly stock.

Here are the facts without any opinion from you or I.

1. Will void engine warranty
2. Will give 6-10 wheel hp depending on how done
3. Will improve durability under racing conditions
4. Will increase NVH by a very small amount.
5. With the JWT kit, is easy to reverse and put back to stock.
6. Will not hurt the engine under normal street use.
7. Will increse the amount of oil avalible to the main and rod bearings
8. The JWT kit will improve oil control, reduce windage and reduce oil starvation under cornering.

Whether or not this has any value to the consumer is up toi the consumer, anything else is just opinion.

Mike


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

For the brave.....

Balance shaft removal instructions....

Part 1 of 2 

Part 2 of 2


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *In the first Jarrod, you are wrong, there are many production engines that are externaly balanced, like most domestic engines!
> 
> As far as the validity of removing the balance shafts, no its not going to affect the engines durabilty and may even improve it under some conditions. The first few QR25's that were modifed for racing use failed because of extensive damage caused by balance shaft assembly failure. The shafts seize at high rpm, much past 6500 rpm in fact.
> 
> ...


As an ASE certified tech, Ill second that.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *In the first Jarrod, you are wrong, there are many production engines that are externaly balanced, like most domestic engines!*



You are absolutely correct and point well taken. My choice of words was poor; it's not like I've never heard of a harmonic balancer. 


> *As far as the validity of removing the balance shafts, no its not going to affect the engines durabilty and may even improve it under some conditions.*


Here's the sticking point, Mike. The QR25 has been out for about a year, so any objective durability data available regarding balance shaft removal is nil. Show me a QR25 that's run for seven years and 200,000 miles without its balance shafts and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're throwing out the same type of educated conjecture I am on this subject.


> *
> The reason for the balance shafts exsistance is not for durabilty but because the NVH target for the QR25 was to meet or exceed the NVH chariteristics of the VQ30DE engine.*



Who said anything about durability in this sense? You're of course absolutely right, but if Nissan's target was VQ30DE smoothness with a balance shaft-equipped long-stroke inline four, well, you know as well as I do that such a target is a pipe dream. The two engines are not even close in NVH.


> *
> However I bet that many people wouldnot be able to tell that the balance shafts were removed if they were not promted...*


These people of whom you speak must be deaf and have no tactile sense whatsoever, then. While I can accept your statement that a QR without balance shafts is not exactly a Massey Ferguson, you and I both know that their installation helps NVH immensely. Nissan simply would not have gone to the trouble and expense of installing them if the perceived benefits in NVH were not substantial.


> *
> In fact your famous Bosch spark plug argument was proven wrong once more data was avalible but after you dropped off that mailing list.*



That still sticks in your craw after nearly six years? Holy cow, you've got a long memory. I salute you. 

I am in fact still a subscribing member of the mailing list. Get my digests every day. As for the Bosch plug thing, well, you'll have to enlighten me as I still use them, though both the G20 and the Altima aren't due for another 90,000 miles. I do remember you being something of the Offical Purveyor of $20 NGK Spark Plugs. I think at one point you ran around sporting NGK stickers over every square inch of your body. 


> *
> You are correct in your advice that if you are not a person into modding the car whose primary concern is to have a warranty and a lack of NVH, then don't remove the balance shafts, in fact don't consider any modifcations, keep your car totaly stock.*



I've always found it interesting that you have a difficult time subjectifying the term "modding." That is, in your world, either you go balls-out and build a barely driveable 400-horsepower monster or you don't mod at all. There is in fact, Mike, a large majority of enthusiasts who enjoy lightly modifying their cars for a few extra horses while attempting to retain their cars' full investment value and factory warranty. Removing the balance shafts in most cases is a bad idea for the six to 10 wheel horsepower you may gain for the simple fact that a) it's relatively complicated for the average enthusiast; b) it absolutely, unequivocally voids your warranty; c) it increases NVH substantially; and d) it may affect long-term reliability.

The first three points are inarguable; the last is what I'll call enlightened conjecture, just as any statement you make to the contrary regarding it. There's zero evidence to analyze on the issue. Only common sense.

Regardless, Mike, it's good to debate with you again. I always enjoyed it. Why the heck are you on an Altima forum? Finally found the merits of six pots instead of four? 

Cheers,


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

> Here's the sticking point, Mike. The QR25 has been out for about a year, so any objective durability data available regarding balance shaft removal is nil. Show me a QR25 that's run for seven years and 200,000 miles without its balance shafts and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're throwing out the same type of educated conjecture I am on this subject.


Dave Coleman's Car has been fine as well as the other racing QRs. Im sure you know that racing miles about the same as big multiples of street miles. So we could say that these cars have a good amount of milage in a sense. Since we all know that racing miles are harder than street miles, one could almost say that if a race engine has had no trouble a street engine wont have any trouble. Do you think a company with the rep of JWT would put out a part(s) that would end up damaging engines in the long run?



> Who said anything about durability in this sense? You're of course absolutely right, but if Nissan's target was VQ30DE smoothness with a balance shaft-equipped long-stroke inline four, well, you know as well as I do that such a target is a pipe dream. The two engines are not even close in NVH.


How many different QR cars have you been in? The ones I have been do feel close and mabe even meet that target. Maybe Im "deaf and have no tactile sense whatsoever", but I doubt that.



> These people of whom you speak must be deaf and have no tactile sense whatsoever, then. While I can accept your statement that a QR without balance shafts is not exactly a Massey Ferguson, you and I both know that their installation helps NVH immensely. Nissan simply would not have gone to the trouble and expense of installing them if the perceived benefits in NVH were not substantial.


Have you been in a QR powered car without the balance shafts? If not how can you say that they help immensely i this specific application?

The rest I wont even touch. I am only debating here, please dont take it as flamming or hating.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

JKWright said:


> You are absolutely correct and point well taken. My choice of words was poor; it's not like I've never heard of a harmonic balancer.
> 
> Here's the sticking point, Mike. The QR25 has been out for about a year, so any objective durability data available regarding balance shaft removal is nil. Show me a QR25 that's run for seven years and 200,000 miles without its balance shafts and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're throwing out the same type of educated conjecture I am on this subject.
> [/b]
> ...


Dammit, the vB codes don't seem to work for me so sorry if this is not well connected.

The problem I have with your arguments is that your opinions are simply opinions basied on conjecture with no experiance, like I always did on the SE-R list, I can call you an armchair modder, automotive engineerer, etc. Do you own a modifed car?no, do you race? no, are you an automotive engineer? no, are you actively involved with developing any sort of part for the industry? no. Thats a lot of no's to have such an objective opinion with such subjective data. I think I can answer all of those questions with yes.

What I post on is based on what has been done, what I have done or from feedback from professionals that I work with. I have driven a few cars with the balance shafts removed and was shocked and dismayed on what little difference in NVH they made. Go to b15sentra.net and ask those have actualy done this mod, I am sure they will share the same opinion as I. You on the other hand have nevber been within 300 feet of a QR with no balance shafts I bet.

I have been involved with modding several QR's for racing and seen the problems in developing these motors for racing use. The balance shafts actualy create durabilty issues in severe racing use. A season of endurance road racing or Pro-Rally is much more taxing that 200 k of normal highway driving, to figue that out simply firgure out the revolutions the motor turns in comparable use compare to in racing. Thats not even calculating the load differences on the componets. Your opinions are conjecture, mine are from actualy doing and experiancing, especialy on the QR25.

I remember the spark plug argument well! You are my favorite guy to argue with. After Chris Pinthong Dynoed his car with the Bosch plugs, he drove with the plugs for a while then redynoed to find a power loss. He then reinstalled some old 60k mile OEM plugs and guess what? The power came back and the weird driveabilty issues he was experiancing but did not attibute to the Bosch plugs instantly disappered. If you remember, Chris was your big supporter in your efforts to prove my advice for using OEM plugs wrong. Well he admitted to me that he was very wrong but never bothered to post anything about it.

As far as my 400 hp creations being undrivable, they are well engieered street machines, daily drivable calm and easy to manage and mosters when given the spurs. Ask b15sentra.net webmaster David Evans, or SCC engineering editor Dave Coleman who have both driven the Disco Potato B15 that I helped build and let them tell you how tractable and friendly that motor is and what a dream it is to drive, even in bumper to bumper traffic. Ask Ryan Besterwich, Ron Avacedo, Jay Hassigner, Aaron LeBeau, Mike Mager and many others if my creations are tempermental moody machines, they will tell you no.

I have probably had my hand in 70-80% of the Non -Stillen performance parts currently out for the Sentra family from mild to wild, I don't see how you can say that I only have experiance in extremes. If you ever do ventrue out and mod your car, chances are that I was consulted in some aspect of the part you are installing on your car. From an AEM intake to the JWT balance shaft removal kit, the F-Max turbo system, to a Hotshot header, GC coiloversand even a JWT camshaft, I had a role in bringing it to market. I am not a promoter of extremes, I understand all aspects of the industry from mild to wild.

Anyway my opinion are much less conjecture than yours are. Yours are pure opinion and conjecture. Mine arte based on actual happenings and experiance, lets leave it to the readers of this thread, who are you gonna belive?

How come you don't post on the se-r mailing list anymore? I miss you

 

Mike


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

I know who I belive.  Im gonna need some help building an "unstreetable" turbo S13 starting this spring. I wonder who I will ask for advice


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

Ok, so some belive that this causes problems after a few years, and some belive that this causes no problems what so ever. I want to see some posts on other forums before I continue with this. Please continue to weigh in. I'm lernin sumtin.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Dammit, the vB codes don't seem to work for me so sorry if this is not well connected.
> 
> The problem I have with your arguments is that your opinions are simply opinions basied on conjecture with no experiance, like I always did on the SE-R list, I can call you an armchair modder, automotive engineerer, etc. Do you own a modifed car?no, do you race? no, are you an automotive engineer? no, are you actively involved with developing any sort of part for the industry? no. Thats a lot of no's to have such an objective opinion with such subjective data. I think I can answer all of those questions with yes.
> 
> ...


not that he's one to brag!

J/k


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2002)

Altim8GA said:


> *Ok, so some belive that this causes problems after a few years, and some belive that this causes no problems what so ever. I want to see some posts on other forums before I continue with this. Please continue to weigh in. I'm lernin sumtin. *


Please visit the Performance forum over at b15sentra.net you'll find hundreds of posts on this very subject. Also remember that the b15 sentra (se-r, spec-v) uses our engine.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

James said:


> *not that he's one to brag!
> 
> J/k *


Its just that stating opinions like fact is one of my pet pieves, so is the fact that anyone can be an expert on the internet.

In the end people can draw there own conclusions and have there own opinions. Some have flawed logic and will chose the wrong thing, some won't.

Mike


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> The problem I have with your arguments is that your opinions are simply opinions basied on conjecture with no experiance...*


Mike, if you're gonna play the whip-it-out-and-let's-measure-game then of course as a general rule I defer to your expertise. But there are times such as this that you let your street- and track-racing mentality get in the way of what makes good long-term sense for a guy who wants to add a few horsepower to his ride without compromising long-term reliability, NVH or value. I'll say it again: Removing the balance shafts in an average street car is a bad idea for all the reasons I've outlined numerous times in this thread. 

Yanking them in a track car, however, is another matter entirely and no doubt has little impact on reliability. But while the statement that track miles are substantially harder than the worst stop-and-go traffic imaginable, neither I as an "armchair engineer" (I like that) nor any competent *real* engineer would make the leap that if a shaftless QR can run 500 miles on the track without issue, then Jane Grocery Getter should obviously get 150,000 miles out of the same setup. They're apples and oranges, my friend, and you know it. And I'm *only* addressing the latter situation in this thread.


> *You on the other hand have nevber been within 300 feet of a QR with no balance shafts I bet.*


I'm betting you've not been within 100 yards of a Siberian tiger, but that doesn't mean you don't know what to expect: It's white, fuzzy and will bite your damned arm off if you get too close. I fail to understand your point.


> *
> I have been involved with modding several QR's for racing...*



Mike, tell me something I don't know. You are an expert in this area. There's no need to keep expounding on your resume. 


> *Your opinions are conjecture, mine are from actualy doing and experiancing, especialy on the QR25.*



Interesting. I stand corrected, then. So how many 10-year-old QR25s without balance shafts have you worked with? How many miles did they have on them again?

Sounds like conjecture to me.


> *I remember the spark plug argument well! You are my favorite guy to argue with.*


I'm flattered. Right back at you! 


> *If you remember, Chris was your big supporter in your efforts to prove my advice for using OEM plugs wrong. Well he admitted to me that he was very wrong but never bothered to post anything about it.*



This also is interesting, but since Chris isn't here and neither I nor anyone else that I occasionally converse with on the mailing list has ever heard of this, I think perhaps we should let it lie. Take a similar line of reasoning into a courtroom and you'd be shown the door even before you took your seat.


> *
> As far as my 400 hp creations being undrivable, they are well engieered street machines, daily drivable calm and easy to manage and mosters when given the spurs.*


You know the point I was trying to make, Mike: That most enthusiasts want to spend a few hundred bucks in *simple* bolt-ons to free up an additonal 10 to 20 horsepower in most cases. They don't want to void their warranties, they don't want to go through complicated and detailed installations (or removals in the case of balance shafts) and they absolutely want to retain the full value of their investments. Show me a lowered, winged, bedecked lime-green import equipped with the JWT catalog and I'll show you a worthless trade-in that the warranty manager won't touch with a ten-foot breaker bar.

You've always had a difficult time seeing the concerns of the first-time or low-end modder. You're an engineer with substantial racing and development experience; you're on the other side of the looking glass. When I see posts such as yours advocating balance shaft removal for daily drivers, I cringe. For six horsepower? That's nuts. 


> *
> How come you don't post on the se-r mailing list anymore? I miss you*


Dunno. Just sorta stopped posting one day. Now I only read, even though I've owned an SR-powered vehicle of one type (Classic SE-R) or another (P11 G20) for over 12 years. But I'm still around. And now that we're both here, you don't have to miss me.


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

This is the "Mother of all Threads"

Great posts!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

JKWright said:


> [B
> Yanking them in a track car, however, is another matter entirely and no doubt has little impact on reliability. But while the statement that track miles are substantially harder than the worst stop-and-go traffic imaginable, neither I as an "armchair engineer" (I like that) nor any competent *real* engineer would make the leap that if a shaftless QR can run 500 miles on the track without issue, then Jane Grocery Getter should obviously get 150,000 miles out of the same setup. They're apples and oranges, my friend, and you know it. And I'm *only* addressing the latter situation in this thread.
> 
> 
> ...


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## JBL85 (Oct 17, 2002)

OhTwoAltimaSE said:


> *This is the "Mother of all Threads"
> 
> Great posts! *



Yes, but do we have any Guniea Pigs?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Its just that stating opinions like fact is one of my pet pieves, so is the fact that anyone can be an expert on the internet.
> 
> In the end people can draw there own conclusions and have there own opinions. Some have flawed logic and will chose the wrong thing, some won't.
> 
> Mike *


I don't disagree, just trying to bring humor to the situation!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

JBL85 said:


> *Yes, but do we have any Guniea Pigs?  *


No guinea pig needed. Its already a well proven cheap mod and JWT has a kit to do it that has a windage tray and oil pan baffle with further inceases power, reduces oil consumption, increses pan capacity 1 quart and protects the engine from oil starvation under cornering. Its race, rally and street proven.

Mike


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2002)

jeez people... just go to b15sentra.net and read the performance forum! There's tons of people who have done this mod, and the topic could be considered "beaten to death" on there. You'll find everything you need to know... remember... the Sentra SE-R/Spec-V has the exact same engine as us 2.5ers....


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## JBL85 (Oct 17, 2002)

ThaiBruin said:


> *remember... the Sentra SE-R/Spec-V has the exact same engine as us 2.5ers.... *


No way, I dont believe ya Charlie


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morepower2 _*
> Ever hear about accelerated durabilty testing...*


I have indeed. Accelerated durability testing gave us such rock-dependable engines as GM's first DOHC 16-valve Four (Cosworth Vega, 1975), the world's first variable-displacement four-stroke automotive engine (Cadillac V8-6-4, circa 1981), GM's second DOHC 16-valve Four attempt (Olds Calais Quad 4, 1988, a 5-speed example of which I'm somewhat ashamed to say I bought the third week it was available), etc. etc.

Accelerated durability testing is a theory and a methodology. It's neither a principle nor a law. What I'm saying -- and I know you know this -- is that JWT can run two dozen QR25s around tracks and on dynomometers without balance shafts, but the *only* way to predict future behavior is with past results. You can bet that GM (particularly with the Quad 4, after enduring worldwide embarrassment a decade earlier with the Cosworth Vega) ran each of the engineering flops I listed above through hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles in extended durability testing. What those testing dollars bought them were three of the worst flops in automotive powertrain history, engines that quit early and often in various unpredictable ways that flabbergasted and infuriated not only their owners but their mechanics and engineers as well.

I'm not saying that JWT's product is a flop. What I am saying is that until we see six-figure-mileage QR25s running around nearing their double-digit-year of use, neither you nor I can predict with *any accuracy whatsoever* what the long-term consequences of balanceshaftectomy might be. And for the conservative, low-end modder, I believe the risks do not pair up with the rather meager rewards of six to ten (your figure) horsepower. YMMV.


> *
> According to your logic, a motor is not proven untill its 10 year old or 150k miles what ever comes first.*



As a matter of fact, I couldn't have typed it better. Today's powertrains are engineered so well and manufactured and assembled so meticulously that 10 years or 150,000 miles should be a starting point. For example, when the SR20 arrived in the U.S. in 1990, a lot of people more educated than I took a look at the design and commented on how stout an engine the thing appeared to be. But it wasn't until four or five years later, when more than a few heavy drivers had logged 150,000-plus miles on their G20s, SE-Rs and NX2000s without issue that everyone really took notice and said, Yes indeed, that little aluminum thing in there is one helluva engine. Today, there are 1991 model-year SR20s still happily motoring along with 250,000 miles and more on the odometers that've never been cracked open. This is a testament not to Nissan's accelerated testing program, which of course had its hand in the pot, but to the much simpler and less arcane fact *that the friggin' cars are still on the road*.

Engineers see the truth in the datasheets. But most buyers see the proof in the pudding. And while JWT has an excellent reputation and the QR25 may yet prove itself a solid design in the long-run, right now neither has any pudding with which to, erm, proof. 
*



The tiger bit my arm off.

Click to expand...

*He did? A word of advice: Only stick your arm in the cage *after* the tiger's been fed. 


> *
> Like I have been saying, its up to the individual to decide wheather this is a good mod or not. In my qualified opinion, its an easy yes choice, when it cones to power gains, safety and price.*


Fair enough. And in my admittedly less qualified and more pragmatic opinion, I disagree. And you'll have to elaborate on the safety bit you mentioned above. Have the lawyers already found out about Nissan's little problem with the balance shafts spinning off their mounts and into the cabin? If so, then all bets are off.

PS - And Thai, while I have no doubt that the SE-R people have absolutely whacked the hell out of this topic, I *really* doubt that their debate had anywhere near the artistic and egocentric merit (me) or technical expertise (Mike) that this little thing has going for it. He and I have practiced it for years, you know.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

I'll take Balance Shafts for $500 Alex ::theme to Jeopardy in the background::


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## wild willy (Oct 16, 2002)

JK...for the tiny increase....it is not worth the risk..in my opinion.

^ Sorry only one line..i have feelings of inadequacy


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

wild willy said:


> *JK...for the tiny increase....it is not worth the risk..in my opinion.
> 
> ^ Sorry only one line..i have feelings of inadequacy *


10Hp isn't exactly a tiny increase...


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## wild willy (Oct 16, 2002)

myoung said:


> *10Hp isn't exactly a tiny increase... *


That is the max...more like 6 hp increase...never notice it.

Go drive the 03 it has 5 more....Go drive the max it has 15 more...Can you tell the difference. I drove the g35 and there was no noticable difference.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

wild willy said:


> *That is the max...more like 6 hp increase...never notice it.
> 
> Go drive the 03 it has 5 more....Go drive the max it has 15 more...Can you tell the difference. I drove the g35 and there was no noticable difference. *


Rerad my post, the JWT kit has a windage tean/scraper and gets more than 6 hp. Its more like 8-10. Its a power difference that can easily be felt.

Mike


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

wild willy said:


> *That is the max...more like 6 hp increase...never notice it.
> 
> Go drive the 03 it has 5 more....Go drive the max it has 15 more...Can you tell the difference. I drove the g35 and there was no noticable difference. *


Been dyno'd all runs were 9 and 10...... 

So you can't feel any noticable diff between a G35 and a 03 SE-R?...hahaha sounds like you need a internal butt dyno adjustment.....lol


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## wild willy (Oct 16, 2002)

myoung said:


> So you can't feel any noticable diff between a G35 and a 03 SE-R?...hahaha sounds like you need a internal butt dyno adjustment.....lol [/B]


No I could not...Neither could my brother -in-law as far as power...we took some long test drives in these cars.


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## JBL85 (Oct 17, 2002)

Just use Nitrous, nothing to worry about 

If it blows, take out and take it back to the dealer


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2002)

JBL85 said:


> *Just use Nitrous, nothing to worry about
> 
> If it blows, take out and take it back to the dealer  *


a la hee1? haha


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2002)

wild willy said:


> *JK...for the tiny increase....it is not worth the risk..in my opinion.
> 
> ^ Sorry only one line..i have feelings of inadequacy *


Willy is my equally pragmatic, less verbose, much hornier and substantially drunker evil twin. I love him so.


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

JKWright said:


> *substantially drunker evil twin. I love him so.  *


EEEEEEwwwwwwwwwwww!


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2003)

i just did the balance shaft removal on my car. it really was not that hard but i did have trouble getting the 4 main bolts off. they were torked on there tight. performance wise i can't really feel any more vibration at all. here is something interesting to know, after the swap i took apart my balancer to see the internals, to my suprise there was serious scoring on the shaft journals. it looked like down the road this may have caused me some trouble. over all i am happy with the upgrade.


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

Do you have any pre/post dyno's? And how noticeable is the gain?


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2003)

no dyno yet but i have a friend who will dyno it for me, so as soon as i get my car back i will let you know ( my poor car got hit by a flying tire off a big rig and it took off the font stillen spoiler)


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2003)

*Removal? Needed in these cars?*

Only reason I am askng this is like DSM's I know a lot of DSM people and 2 that are actual certified techs. Anyhow not to get in to a discussion about a GSX etc...

On the eclipse they have 2 Balance shafts and a belt that runs them. Well most of the time in these cars it is not the timing belt that goes but rather the ballance belt. Because it is on the inside. 

It breaks and takes out or makes the timing belt jump...

Now untill today I did not know that ours the QR25 had a chain, That is just awsome! Much much better, But I would think and someone please correct me if I am wrong that you could effectively get rid of the ballance shatfs by just removing the chain and not removing the shafts themselves... This has been done on Eclipse, Talon, etc. And works great. 

Yes just like theirs our NVH will go up.. And could annoy people specially if the AC is on. Just extra vibration. 

But if you can leave the actuall rods in. Then to go back to stock all that would be needed in the case of the JWT kit is to remove the windage plate, spacers, and place the proer chain over the ballance shafts... 

Just a thought.. But I was thinking that it was going to be like that untill like I said today when I found out that the motor had Chains!! Which I am happy about.

Also side question. The Ballance Shafts, Are they on the same chain as timing? If so it will make the procedure of removing them a little more precise and difficult. 

But thinking about I want to say that they are not. Then you should be able to just remove that chain and be done. Minus connecting anything that was running on the same chain. 

The weight reduction would still take affect as the chain and motor are not running the rods any longer, and the veichle weight would only change due to chain removal and adding the windage plate, and some spacers. . .


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

I'm thinking this is ThaiBruin time....


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## Sentra SER (Jan 11, 2005)

They did the balancer shaft removal on a spec v on a magazine and they said that the vibration is barely noticible. I'm going to do it to get ready from my turbo kit...more oil for the terbow...


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

Holy 2 yr old bump!!

The BS removal does add noticible vibration when coupled with solid, or filled, motor mounts.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Ruben said:


> Holy 2 yr old bump!!
> 
> The BS removal does add noticible vibration when coupled with solid, or filled, motor mounts.


agree on the old ass thread bump  

The second part of the comment is sorta funny though..

"When coupled with solid or filled motor mounts" Well yea... those alone will add noticable vibration.. with or without the ballance shaft removed


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

... yeah, but with the balance shafts done.... it gets OLD quick.


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## Alti9 (Apr 13, 2005)

Ruben said:


> ... yeah, but with the balance shafts done.... it gets OLD quick.


Solid mounts get old quick regardless of balance shaft existence.


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

*I wasnt gonna say anything but....*

Sorry guys, but I cant help myself I registered on this board after hearing some of the dumbest things. I appolagize if i seem like a totall jerk but.... MOREPOWER2 you are not making any sense. I appolagize but you seem like you have no idea what you are taing about. Removing a Balance shaft is not an easy mod. I dont know who you think you are, but im willing to bet you will struggle with it more than you could imagine. I may not have credibility, but let me tell you who I am, and what I know. My name is Alex, and I frequent the altimas.net website. I am the guy with the turbo charged 2.5 altima. I have been around somone who has removed balance shafts, and believe me its far from easy. As far is it being easily reversed. No way in heck, to remove the chain for the balance shaft ou are required to cut it. Meaning it cant be easily put back on. Not to mention removing it will also require you to use more oil during oil changes since the bs no longer takes up space in the oil pan. Also you were saying that it is ery popular to remove the bs from other cars, but u neglecte the fact that the bs in the qr25de is a very well engineered setup. unlike many other 4 cyl's the bs is angled to where it is very efficient. Im not sure if you have seen the waythe bs is attached to the crank shaft, but saying that the car wont vibrate any more to be notice is a matter opinion. You are also forgetting a few more very important facts. you say that the bs adds about 6-9whp right? well thats great but you did not take into account that lovely oversensative knock sensor our engines come with. So now imagine a hot day or a bad tank of fuel, combined with the (small) vibrations added from no bs at high rpm, and tell me the knock sensor wont be pulling timing far back enough to make those gains "nil". You also forgot to mention that the extra engine vibrations can throw off alot of things over time. Nissan would not have spent more money installing a bs removal if it wasnt needed for something. I dont mean to be rude but buddy you have a lot to learn, and dont tell me I dont have experience or am not a heavy modder, because I have done both a nice NA build, and now I am boosting. I am also not saying JWT will sell things to hurt your engines longevity, but you said they dont sell anything that makes your engine last less right, not sure if you saw the turbochargers they sold?!?! hmm I guess those make your engine last alot longer huh. All in all to each his own, I am not going to be removing the BS because the gains are minimal, and it doesn not have any added risk for my high performance build. If you would like to argue thi more I would be happy to, but you need to nderstand that im not arguing out of spite, just hate when people say things about stuff they dont know about, again not saying you dont know about it, but you might have been slightly mis informed. 

Alex


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## Ruben (Oct 15, 2002)

Bahaahaahaah!!!!!!

Before its too late to remove your foot from your mouth... Google "Mike Kojima" That's Morepower2.


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

Ruben said:


> Bahaahaahaah!!!!!!
> 
> Before its too late to remove your foot from your mouth... Google "Mike Kojima" That's Morepower2.



I appolagize mike, but it came off to me as you saying that the qr25de was easily revirsible. I have seen many ppl including myself struggle trying to remove that thing, and when we further spoke with people that had removed it. They said it was simply not worth it. They also said that the way the QR's BS was positioned it was close to exactly opposing the crankshaft hence forth making it very efficient by design for that motor, espescially since it tends to have more vibrations than many smaller 4cyls. Again I appolagize, because I do know you must know what your talking about, but some of the things you said did not seem to be accurate, or maybe you werent explaining it exactly as you meant. 

Alex


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

doc25398 said:


> I appolagize mike, but it came off to me as you saying that the qr25de was easily revirsible. I have seen many ppl including myself struggle trying to remove that thing, and when we further spoke with people that had removed it. They said it was simply not worth it. They also said that the way the QR's BS was positioned it was close to exactly opposing the crankshaft hence forth making it very efficient by design for that motor, espescially since it tends to have more vibrations than many smaller 4cyls. Again I appolagize, because I do know you must know what your talking about, but some of the things you said did not seem to be accurate, or maybe you werent explaining it exactly as you meant.
> 
> Alex


HAHA that is funny. Honestly don't read too far into Mike's posts. he is short and too the point. Not a long winded fellow on the forums... That is unless it is necessary to disprove someone/something..


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

I've had better arguments with Mike. :asleep:


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## Alti9 (Apr 13, 2005)

doc25398 said:


> and I frequent the altimas.net website.


I wouldnt brag about that if I was you. That sight is full of a bunch of unknowledgeable assholes, Ricer wannabes....And dont tell me you learned anything from them idiots, because if you did, it was bad information.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> I've had better arguments with Mike. :asleep:


LMAO those were CLASSIC.


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## Harris (Nov 11, 2002)

Alex, please spell right man. I don't know how you know what you're talking about with that kind of grammar. I think you need to do some more learning before beating down on somenoe who could easily go in a bout with you with one hand tied to his back.


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## asleepz (Feb 24, 2004)

doc25398 said:


> Sorry guys, but I cant help myself I registered on this board after hearing some of the dumbest things. I appolagize if i seem like a totall jerk but.... MOREPOWER2 you are not making any sense. I appolagize but you seem like you have no idea what you are taing about. Removing a Balance shaft is not an easy mod. I dont know who you think you are, but im willing to bet you will struggle with it more than you could imagine. I may not have credibility, but let me tell you who I am, and what I know. My name is Alex, and I frequent the altimas.net website. I am the guy with the turbo charged 2.5 altima. I have been around somone who has removed balance shafts, and believe me its far from easy. As far is it being easily reversed. No way in heck, to remove the chain for the balance shaft ou are required to cut it. Meaning it cant be easily put back on. Not to mention removing it will also require you to use more oil during oil changes since the bs no longer takes up space in the oil pan. Also you were saying that it is ery popular to remove the bs from other cars, but u neglecte the fact that the bs in the qr25de is a very well engineered setup. unlike many other 4 cyl's the bs is angled to where it is very efficient. Im not sure if you have seen the waythe bs is attached to the crank shaft, but saying that the car wont vibrate any more to be notice is a matter opinion. You are also forgetting a few more very important facts. you say that the bs adds about 6-9whp right? well thats great but you did not take into account that lovely oversensative knock sensor our engines come with. So now imagine a hot day or a bad tank of fuel, combined with the (small) vibrations added from no bs at high rpm, and tell me the knock sensor wont be pulling timing far back enough to make those gains "nil". You also forgot to mention that the extra engine vibrations can throw off alot of things over time. Nissan would not have spent more money installing a bs removal if it wasnt needed for something. I dont mean to be rude but buddy you have a lot to learn, and dont tell me I dont have experience or am not a heavy modder, because I have done both a nice NA build, and now I am boosting. I am also not saying JWT will sell things to hurt your engines longevity, but you said they dont sell anything that makes your engine last less right, not sure if you saw the turbochargers they sold?!?! hmm I guess those make your engine last alot longer huh. All in all to each his own, I am not going to be removing the BS because the gains are minimal, and it doesn not have any added risk for my high performance build. If you would like to argue thi more I would be happy to, but you need to nderstand that im not arguing out of spite, just hate when people say things about stuff they dont know about, again not saying you dont know about it, but you might have been slightly mis informed.
> 
> Alex



You realize he is a Engineer at Nissan right? dumbass


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## Alti9 (Apr 13, 2005)

doc25398 said:


> just hate when people say things about stuff they dont know about, again not saying you dont know about it,
> Alex


Wow, that makes a lot of fucking sense. Really, come back when you have a clue.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

doc25398 said:


> Sorry guys, but I cant help myself I registered on this board after hearing some of the dumbest things. I appolagize if i seem like a totall jerk but.... MOREPOWER2 you are not making any sense. I appolagize but you seem like you have no idea what you are taing about. Removing a Balance shaft is not an easy mod. I dont know who you think you are, but im willing to bet you will struggle with it more than you could imagine. I may not have credibility, but let me tell you who I am, and what I know. My name is Alex, and I frequent the altimas.net website. I am the guy with the turbo charged 2.5 altima. I have been around somone who has removed balance shafts, and believe me its far from easy. As far is it being easily reversed. No way in heck, to remove the chain for the balance shaft ou are required to cut it. Meaning it cant be easily put back on. Not to mention removing it will also require you to use more oil during oil changes since the bs no longer takes up space in the oil pan. Also you were saying that it is ery popular to remove the bs from other cars, but u neglecte the fact that the bs in the qr25de is a very well engineered setup. unlike many other 4 cyl's the bs is angled to where it is very efficient. Im not sure if you have seen the waythe bs is attached to the crank shaft, but saying that the car wont vibrate any more to be notice is a matter opinion. You are also forgetting a few more very important facts. you say that the bs adds about 6-9whp right? well thats great but you did not take into account that lovely oversensative knock sensor our engines come with. So now imagine a hot day or a bad tank of fuel, combined with the (small) vibrations added from no bs at high rpm, and tell me the knock sensor wont be pulling timing far back enough to make those gains "nil". You also forgot to mention that the extra engine vibrations can throw off alot of things over time. Nissan would not have spent more money installing a bs removal if it wasnt needed for something. I dont mean to be rude but buddy you have a lot to learn, and dont tell me I dont have experience or am not a heavy modder, because I have done both a nice NA build, and now I am boosting. I am also not saying JWT will sell things to hurt your engines longevity, but you said they dont sell anything that makes your engine last less right, not sure if you saw the turbochargers they sold?!?! hmm I guess those make your engine last alot longer huh. All in all to each his own, I am not going to be removing the BS because the gains are minimal, and it doesn not have any added risk for my high performance build. If you would like to argue thi more I would be happy to, but you need to nderstand that im not arguing out of spite, just hate when people say things about stuff they dont know about, again not saying you dont know about it, but you might have been slightly mis informed.
> 
> Alex


If you have no idea what you are talking about, then don't talk. If you don't know what reversable mean, then don't comment. If you have no idea on what testing this has undergone, then don't speculate. If you have no idea what happpens to the BS at high RPM and what that does to the motor when it does happen, then don't make estimations on reliabilty. If you don't agree with me then don't do it.


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## Sentra SER (Jan 11, 2005)

Come on, this is common sense, the way I'm planning my mods, and I've already said earlier is that I'll do the BSR no for the whp gain, but for the benefits that come with it, one less thing to break down, a little more weight off your car, more oil for the engine and like myself with a future turbo will have more oil to feed the engine and the turbo w/o any problems. Noise or vibration increase? Come on dude you do MMI on anything and it'll have a higher vibration and something that is barely noticible, I've riden in a spec v w/o its BS and it felt just like my stock ser, now about the knock sensor...over-sensitive, yes, nothing you can do about it, no! You can re-route the Knock sensor to a place in the engine that it only detects what it needs to detect, detonation or knock, not just the engine doing something different or having a mood swing, so if you want alot of power and benefits on N/A or T/C cars, BSR, Cams, Knock Senson Re-routing, Premium gas (which should be used even in stock cars because of the knock sensor) MMI and you're still going to be running smoother than another car with the same amount of power as yours.
And another things, just as said above, racing QRs w/o the BS are still running well and not thirstying when cornering because of the extra oil, so I'd give this mod the :thumbup: and it's worth the moeny and time to do it not because of the results to the wheels, but because of the preparation for other mods.


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

Alti9 said:


> I wouldnt brag about that if I was you. That sight is full of a bunch of unknowledgeable assholes, Ricer wannabes....And dont tell me you learned anything from them idiots, because if you did, it was bad information.


I never bragged about being from another forum, I simply stated where I have spent my time discussing my car. You calling them idiots is just a reflection of yourself. There might be a few bad apples out there but there is also an equal amount of knowledgable people.



Harris said:


> Alex, please spell right man. I don't know how you know what you're talking about with that kind of grammar. I think you need to do some more learning before beating down on somenoe who could easily go in a bout with you with one hand tied to his back.


I apologize for not using proper grammar, I was in a rush and did not re-read what I had posted.



asleepz said:


> You realize he is a Engineer at Nissan right? dumbass


Yes thank you for stating the obvious! I didn't realize who he was, and I apologize for calling him misinformed. I read what he had to say, and didn't agree. I would think as an engineer for nissan he would know that the bs isn't placed in the QR for shits and giggles.



Alti9 said:


> Wow, that makes a lot of fucking sense. Really, come back when you have a clue.


Again I emphasize my sincerest apologies for seeming like an ass hole! I now know who he is, and what he does. I respect the role he plays in Nissan, and I do admit he has more knowledge than I do. I however don't agree with his reasoning, and that is again my choice. 



MOREPOWER2 said:


> If you have no idea what you are talking about, then don't talk. If you don't know what reversable mean, then don't comment. If you have no idea on what testing this has undergone, then don't speculate. If you have no idea what happpens to the BS at high RPM and what that does to the motor when it does happen, then don't make estimations on reliabilty. If you don't agree with me then don't do it.


If I had no idea about what I was saying, I wouldn't have said it. I do not know what reversable means, but I do know what reversible means. I do not know what testing this has undergone, but I can also say from experience with other cars what can go wrong. Again beating a dead horse testing this theory is fine and dandy, but like someone mentioned earlier give me ten years of reliability and then we can talk. I never made estimations, or speculations. I am speaking from what knowledge I have, and the experience I have. You seem to like to say "if you have no idea" which flaws your point, because I do have an idea. A good idea at that. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean your wrong, and I already stated that this would not be a mod I am interested in. I also would like to point out how you make this mod sound like an easy thing to do for the average person. I have driven, rode, and helped remove BS from cars before, and know that its not as easy as you make it seem. Again it comes down to each his own. 

I apologize to all if I seem rude, but I do not mean to anger anyone here. I just like getting into debates as much as the next guy. If I have offended you in anyway I apologize!

Alex


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## Alti9 (Apr 13, 2005)

doc25398 said:


> You calling them idiots is just a reflection of yourself. There might be a few bad apples out there but there is also an equal amount of knowledgable people.


That is correct, a reflection of my ability to spot assholes, and that sight has them all. And no, there is not an equal amount of knowledgeable people there, in fact, there arent any.(ok, maybe one or two with 1/4 of a clue)


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

Alti9 said:


> That is correct, a reflection of my ability to spot assholes, and that sight has them all. And no, there is not an equal amount of knowledgeable people there, in fact, there arent any.(ok, maybe one or two with 1/4 of a clue)


lol seems to me like somone was messed up pretty bady overther. In anycase there is tons of reading overthere, along with very knowledgable people. If you want to argue you this till you are blue in the face thats fine, but I have better things to do with my time. I am going to simply say that I found more information there than I found here. Have a nice day!


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

Alti9 said:


> That is correct, a reflection of my ability to spot assholes, and that sight has them all. And no, there is not an equal amount of knowledgeable people there, in fact, there arent any.(ok, maybe one or two with 1/4 of a clue)



Alti9 
Banned Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 257 

Lmao no wonder you hate the boards. LMAO you posted a few stupid things and got all your threads locked, and eventually got yourself banned. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Im done, no wait theres more LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

[/end threadjack]


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## Alti9 (Apr 13, 2005)

doc25398 said:


> lol seems to me like somone was messed up pretty bady overther. In anycase there is tons of reading overthere, along with very knowledgable people. If you want to argue you this till you are blue in the face thats fine, but I have better things to do with my time. I am going to simply say that I found more information there than I found here. Have a nice day!


So head back on over and there and hang out with the rest of the idiots, as you have proven yourself to be with your ignorant thread here. Later!


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## Alti9 (Apr 13, 2005)

doc25398 said:


> Alti9
> Banned Join Date: Apr 2005
> Posts: 257
> 
> ...


No idiot, I didnt post anything stupid, yet was still banned, hence the reason that place is full of assholes. I think they miss you, better get on back over there where they speak your language.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Alti9 said:


> No idiot, I didnt post anything stupid, yet was still banned, hence the reason that place is full of assholes. I think they miss you, better get on back over there where they speak your language.


Take it to PM man, no one wants to read this crap.


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

Most of the newer folks that came from A.net back in the day were arrogant/ignorant. Been a while since we've had one.

I guess if I slap a turbo on a weed eater, that makes me a grass expert.


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

im at .net but i help moderate the altima (and the tool forum) forums here, does that mean im stupid too?


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

AsleepAltima said:


> im at .net but i help moderate the altima (and the tool forum) forums here, does that mean im stupid too?



There are always exceptions


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

wes said:


> LMAO those were CLASSIC.


Yes, indeed. That's the reason I came here in the first place, long ago, was because someone dared me to argue with him. As soon as I found out he knew what he was talking about, I stfu. And me and Mike have done a few idiot take-downs ourselves. Mike is the shiz, I love being on the same side. If one guy in the whole world knew what he was talking about, it would be Mike. :cheers:


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## Asleep (Jan 19, 2003)

Zen31ZR said:


> Yes, indeed. That's the reason I came here in the first place, long ago, was because someone dared me to argue with him. As soon as I found out he knew what he was talking about, I stfu. And me and Mike have done a few idiot take-downs ourselves. Mike is the shiz, I love being on the same side. If one guy in the whole world knew what he was talking about, it would be Mike. :cheers:


i love reading his articles. always good and informative. especially the newest one about the flat black silvia...


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

Mark said:


> Most of the newer folks that came from A.net back in the day were arrogant/ignorant. Been a while since we've had one.
> 
> I guess if I slap a turbo on a weed eater, that makes me a grass expert.



LOL I never said I was an expert at anything. Im neither arrogant nor ignorant. I never said my car with a turbo will smoke you all, or never said my car has a turbo so I know everything. I simply stated that I have been arround highlymodified cars, which was one of mike's rebutal points when he was arguing with zen31zr. I have seen and worked on many of the aspects we discussed. Instead of flaming people read what has been said. lol, and your calling me the ignorant one?


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## Sentra SER (Jan 11, 2005)

looks like a sily fight is starting, and isn't going to end for a good time.


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

doc25398 said:


> LOL I never said I was an expert at anything. Im neither arrogant nor ignorant. I never said my car with a turbo will smoke you all, or never said my car has a turbo so I know everything. I simply stated that I have been arround highlymodified cars, which was one of mike's rebutal points when he was arguing with zen31zr. I have seen and worked on many of the aspects we discussed. Instead of flaming people read what has been said. lol, and your calling me the ignorant one?



I called you ignorant because you came across as an expert on this particular subject. I called you ignorant because you said taking the BS out of the QR was so difficult it shouldn't be attempted. I called you ignorant because I know this has been done many times over by several people on these boards. I called you arrogant because you argued with one of the foremost experts on the Nissan brand, whether you knew who he was or not. I called you arrogant because of the fact that you stated for no particular reason that you had a third gen turbo Altima.


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## doc25398 (Jul 18, 2005)

Mark said:


> I called you ignorant because you came across as an expert on this particular subject. I called you ignorant because you said taking the BS out of the QR was so difficult it shouldn't be attempted. I called you ignorant because I know this has been done many times over by several people on these boards. I called you arrogant because you argued with one of the foremost experts on the Nissan brand, whether you knew who he was or not. I called you arrogant because of the fact that you stated for no particular reason that you had a third gen turbo Altima.



I stated I had a turbo to inform the readers that im not waht mike considered a light modder. I said I had a turbo to show that I have seen the car from many different perspectives. I am not ignorant because I said that it was a difficult mod, removing it is not all that easy.It may not be dramatically hard, but it is by no means cake. Im not ignorant for stating my perspective on what difficult is. I do however agree that I insulted a very knowledgable person, and I also appolagized for. Seems to me that you wont be satisfied till im stoned.


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

doc25398 said:


> I stated I had a turbo to inform the readers that im not waht mike considered a light modder. I said I had a turbo to show that I have seen the car from many different perspectives. I am not ignorant because I said that it was a difficult mod, removing it is not all that easy.It may not be dramatically hard, but it is by no means cake. Im not ignorant for stating my perspective on what difficult is. I do however agree that I insulted a very knowledgable person, and I also appolagized for. Seems to me that you wont be satisfied till im stoned.



While my initial comment was about you, it was not directed towards you, yet you took it upon yourself to respond. You rebutted, to which I countered. My intention when I stated my opinion was not to fuel the fire, no matter how irritating your post was.

Dropped on my end.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Take pissing matches to PM.


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