# Ka Vs. Sr



## Noplay187 (May 16, 2003)

which engine is better in horsepower and torque and which one would be cheaper to get it runin 12's?


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## DRIFTER-J (Feb 28, 2003)

SR


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

that's not exactly a question that can be answered. there are many different opinions on this and many pros and cons of each. both engines will hold around the same amount of power on a stock bottom end. if it were me, which i'm doing, i'd build the KA because you're saving the money that you would spend on buying an SR.


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## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

agree with 93blackser. this is a issue that ppl argue over everyday..

if you want to go with the "JDM" flavor...go with the sr20.
if you want to be unique (there's a LOT of people doing sr20 swamps these days...) go with the KA.

they both are capable of huge amounts of power and 12's shouldn't be that hard. personally i would go with the SR but KA should also be an option.. good luck


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

93blackSER said:


> *both engines will hold around the same amount of power on a stock bottom end. *


actually, no. 

the KAs will usually last you about 300RWHP (possibly 350RWHP) on a stock bottom end. 

the SRs have been proven pretty consistently to handle around 450RWHP on a stock bottom end. and the guys at Phase2Motortrend are about to hit 500RWHP on a stock bottom end SR.


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## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

i heard that both the KA and the SR can handle 350hp before building internals (the top end..not bottom) 

is this true esyip?


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

either way, if i was building a turbo car, which i will be soon, i would build the internals first thing. all of the internals, top and bottom end. in a few months i will have a build KA24DE with Ross pistons, Pauter rods, a full Ferrea valvetrain, Gude Ported and Polished head and port matched intake manifold, Gude cams, and a Gude throttle body. not to mention an intake and exhaust, and if the cash flow allows me, a full fuel system that can support in excess of 600hp, cuz i'm going for 500 at the wheels. i'll keep everyone posted. once the engine is all built, it's all about saving for a turbo, and it'll all be a custom kit.


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

when speaking of internals, it's usually in reference to the block/bottom end. that's pretty much it. the head isn't exactly building internals. and the KA can handle somewhere near 350RWHP (recommended is 300RWHP for a rebuild) and the SR can handle somewhere in the vicinity of 450RWHP. and like i said earlier, the guys at Phase2 are about to hit 500RWHP on a stock bottom end. they're somewhere around 475RWHP right now.


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

turbos turbos turbos

imma be 200hp+ n/a


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## Gripen (May 24, 2003)

The stock forged crankshaft of the SR can handle up to 500 bhp, i wouldn't go any higher than 450 bhp for durability reasons (also i don't want to test whether or not its true even though Sport Compact Car says so). JUN does make a billet crankshaft for the SR20 though... but it's like $5600 from Afterdark Tuning (ouch). I'd like to go with the SR20 because of the strength that they are known for.

I wonder how much a set of forged titanium rods would cost from Cunningham Rods would be? Maybe match that up with titanium valves and retainers from Manley? Mwahahaha... *ahem* sorry, just some pipe dreams of mine...

www.afterdark-tuning.com
www.cunninghamrods.com
www.manleyperformance.com


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

5600 just for a crank from JUN? that's a rip off, i've seen full JUN stroker kits for the SR20 for anywhere between 4699 and 4999. if i can find where again, i'll post it. and i'd stay away from titanium rods unless it's a full blown race car and you have lots of cash. they are somewhat weak when it comes to heat. they can get so hot and by going up and down in the cylinders so fast, they actually stretch out and can cause all kinds of problems. i'm talking really stretching here, like a visable difference. you usually only see titanium rods in race engines that are torn apart after every race. just my 2cents tho.


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

id go with the engine that was built to be turbo charged, and ran hard! Im not too keen on the idea of fully building and turbo charging a truck engine! By the time you do the pistons, rods, valves, cams, ignition, timing,turbo, manifold, downpipe, o2 housing (for the emissions correct), blow off valve, waste gate (if its external), youve bought yourself almost 2 RWD sr20's. in other words, youve spent enough money to rip out the old engine, and put the TURBO POWER HOUSE IN! ive never heard that the KA series was durable! every 240 that i see for sale has had engine problems. not saying that there not good, im just saying that you dont have to worry about fukn rompn on an sr20 in the 1/4. IMHO oh course.


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

why do people constantly call the KA24DE a truck engine? it's not a damn truck engine. if it was, it wouldnt have been in the 240sx or the Altima! about the KA being durable, it is quite durable. it has an iron block meaning that it's less prone to crack than the aluminum block of the SR20. i would much rather build a KA over an SR any day. if people go for all out power from an engine, why would they buy the SR20DET and then replace all the internals on that as well? i would never boost an engine very much on stock internals, i dont care what it is. i cover my ass just in case. i believe that fully building a KA would end up being cheaper than building an SR in the long run and you would get much more torque out of the KA with a block less likely to crack. my 2cents.


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

tell you what! go and build a KA, and then try to boost that engine at 22psi for 168000 miles!


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

sure! give me some money and i'll get right on it!


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

anthony jackson said:


> *tell you what! go and build a KA, and then try to boost that engine at 22psi for 168000 miles! *


ever heard of a rebuild?


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

No i havent, remember, i own an SR20


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

u own a FF sr20 which is nothing to a FR
and u sig says its n/a so i guess u got a SR20DE
good luck raacing a KA24(D)E-T


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

if he owns an FF SR20 that's n/a, how can he talk about boosting 22psi for 168000 miles? doesnt sound right to me.


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

youre right, it is a N/A car, and i will race a A iron KA, and when i purge on that bastard, and spray a 150 shot (cuse it can handle that with ease) ill blow the doors off of it (for the sake of my pride i just lied too, but anyway back on subject)

why does all the sylvias in japan have sr's then! why cuse that is what is supposed to come in them. the KA is a truck engine! Just call your local autozone and ask for an engine for a 85-95 nissan hardbody/pathfinder pick up truck. ask for the 4 cyl, and then ask the serial # on the engine! DUHHHHHHH! no really though, if you blow the KA racing or pushing too much power, just give the sr20det a chance, i mean Japan did from 89-03. Its gotta be good for something. But maybe your right, America has been hiding a secret from that japs. a secret power house.........blllaaaahhh never mind!


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

> if he owns an FF SR20 that's n/a, how can he talk about boosting 22psi for 168000 miles? doesnt sound right to me.


right, i did just that! I TALKED ABOUT IT. Its called Knowledge, and knowledge is power. this is a direct product of the magic spell called "searching"! 

seriously though, just do some research on the topic and get some hard facts about it, insead of listening to opinions (especially mine  ) Man searching is the most awsome way to gt the facts. and once you learn them, you will be able to dominate!


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

well immma talk about his avatar and how the girl runs and her boobs move back and forth
just like on baywatch

they should never stop running on baywatch


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

yeah for sure, but back on subject now..............


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

anthony jackson said:


> *tell you what! go and build a KA, and then try to boost that engine at 22psi for 168000 miles! *


actually, Chris May's Ka24DE-T boosted daily at, i believe, 18psi or so. and i think he had his dynoes at around 26psi or something around there. 

i'm sure that if it's done correctly, the KA24DE-T will be able to go a long ways, just like the SR. but remember, turbo kits and the idea of turboing the KA is still very new to the Nissan scene.


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## 93blackSER (Feb 1, 2003)

i agree with esyip, the KA is still new to the scene altho it's been around a while. there arent many compaines that make parts for the KA, but more and more are starting to. it wont be long before turbo KAs are stomping on SR20s. just wait!


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

you know, your prolly right! i mean im srue that there was huge doubt about the SR20 when i first came out in japan, it being an all aluminum motor and all! Hell the CA18DET crowd probally thought that i wouldnt last a day, and that it would never take the place of the CA in those Silvias. I bet boost_boy can testify to that. he knows about the golden days of the massive CA! but anyway. yea, i can see a KA being fast as all get out too, but at the right price of course!


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

KA's will once again rule the world


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## nismo_whiteboi (Feb 5, 2003)

from a few things that my friend has told me... i have heard that if u completly build up a KA u should get a litlle bit more power than the SR...u will definitly get more torque. i know that the SR20DE here is based on the JDM SR20DET..(without a turbo of course) but think of this a stock USDM SR20 is rated at what...140hp and the KA is rated at 155hp and 160ft-lb of torque (correct me if i am wrong) then doesnt that mean if u slap a turbo on the KA u should be making a lil bit more than an SR20DET. (i am talking about the silvia SR of course). the only reason more people dont turbo a KA is that it is not a good idaea to turbo a high milage car...(but that is what a rebuild is for). i just wanted to put my 2cents in.(but please correct me if i am wrong)


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

i think ur totatally correct good job lad


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## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

500hp on stock SR internals? uh uh. the block itself isn't even made to handle that. as far as how much boost they'll handle, boost isn't the same as HP. in fact, earlier today i was bored and plotted SCC's dynos for their old project 240SX and project silvia. the KA24DE has a T4 running 6psi while the SR20DET had a T25 running at 12psi and they were almost identical. the SR20 did have a slight advantage for most of the rpm band, but its also maxxing out a MUCH smaller turbo (less lag) at twice the boost. the T4 isn't designed for 6psi duty, its designed for more like 24psi. they also have way more plumbing than was needed on the 240 because they had to return the car stock, so no cutting could be done. and the KA came out with more peak power anyway!!!

p.s.- to anthony jackson - don't jack people's avatars!!!


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

yup proves the power of the KA for those who doubt it muahahahha FEEL THE POWA

the avatar is funny everyone should use it


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## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

yeah, i like that avatar too, but i thought it was bumpin240SX posting at first.


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## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> *500hp on stock SR internals? uh uh. the block itself isn't even made to handle that. as far as how much boost they'll handle, boost isn't the same as HP.*


as far as i know... the phase2motortrend 240sx is at 474rwhp running 25psi with stock bottom end.. they are shooting for 500hp. i hope they get it..350lbs-ft torque tho..im sure the ka would be able to make more  here's a link for the mod list

http://www.phase2motortrend.com/modlist9.html


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

^^^^ thank you for mentioning that. i was just about to. 

aluminum block doesn't necessarily mean it can't handle as much as an iron block can or more. come on, people. get that past through your heads! 

SRs NORMALLY handle ~450RWHP. 

in the end, both the KA and SR will be making similar power and will be running similar times if both built correctly. and all of that for the same amount of money. so there's not a whole lot of point to argue which is better. they'll both give you similar results with the same amount of money, more or less.


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## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

esyip said:


> *^^^^ thank you for mentioning that. i was just about to.
> 
> aluminum block doesn't necessarily mean it can't handle as much as an iron block can or more. come on, people. get that past through your heads!
> 
> ...


couldn't have said it better.. the KA and SR are both KICK ASS engines!!!!! we finally have settled this..making me cry


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

hands vsp3c a tissue


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## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

500hp for the 10 seconds it takes to make one good dyno pull doesn't count. i have to use my car everyday, for about 2-5 hours and 150+ miles. i'm interested in RELIABLE power, not a one-run-wonder. as you said, the SR normally handles 450whp. i'm looking to have that much just from the turbo, then run 100+ shot of N2O. is the aluminum block gonna hold that? not for long if it does. sure, you can sleeve the block, but that's expensive. and if you figure in the $1.5-2 grand you need to spend just to get the SR into your car, then no, they don't cost the same. having a 500hp engine sitting in your garage is useless.


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

just an FYI, but you should probably do some more research on that Phase2 dyno. it wasn't a one dyno wonder. the engine is still running strong, and even on that dyno (474RWHP), they said that they could have gone more, put a shot of nitrous through, boosted higher, etc., but they didn't want to risk it. they wanted a good, solid run before going any further. and that SR isn't sitting idle, it is actually used. 

as for the majority of the SRs that hold 400-450RWHP on a stock block (meaning NOTHING is done, not even sleeving the block), many of them are daily drivers. sooo....


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## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

bizzy b said:


> *500hp for the 10 seconds it takes to make one good dyno pull doesn't count. i have to use my car everyday, for about 2-5 hours and 150+ miles. i'm interested in RELIABLE power, not a one-run-wonder. as you said, the SR normally handles 450whp. i'm looking to have that much just from the turbo, then run 100+ shot of N2O. is the aluminum block gonna hold that? not for long if it does. sure, you can sleeve the block, but that's expensive. and if you figure in the $1.5-2 grand you need to spend just to get the SR into your car, then no, they don't cost the same. having a 500hp engine sitting in your garage is useless. *


maybe i haven't lookd around enough but.. what engine can handle 450+hp with stock internals being driven everyday?? yeah you can just put a HUGE turbo on the KA/SR and put out 500hp but you'll probably blow a whole bunch of thigs if you have totally stock internals.. viper kicks out 550hp and a mclaren puts out 625hp and they get driven everyday. but their internals are already kinda upgraded..it comes with the price. i personally do not see how it is even possible for a KA/SR to run 450+hp everyday and be reliable with stock internals..


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

> p.s.- to anthony jackson - don't jack people's avatars!!!


Damn, Busted! 

hey, sorry man. I just couldnt resist! and it is customized a bit so in a way i guess i could call it my own! 


Yeah the KA is definatelly becoming a popular engine in northeast GA! i saw a turbocharged 240sx! i dont know if it was the KA for a fact, but the exhaust note was wwwwaaaayyyyyyyy to deep for it to be an sr20. unless bigger pistons and cams were at work in it!


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## nismo_whiteboi (Feb 5, 2003)

to tell u the truth i have really never seen any KA or SR do over 400whp with stock internals. every SR i have seen in an engine has some serious shit done to it to put out that much.(hell some of them have the 2.2 stroker kit inside). i mean the only ones i have seen that go over 400 r the cars that signal makes. and u know they do major internal work on those. but i would love to see a KA or SR run over 400 on stock internals. cus a KA has to high compression. both engines r killer but i dont think that they r that good


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

true, true! to tell you the truth, ive never saw an sr20 put down over 160whp (mine) except the one i raced that was turbo charged! it had to be over 215whp judging by the way it left me! But still, ive never saw a KA or an SR go over 215 or so whp!
Big talk, but little clap of thunder!


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

KAs CR is NOT high. what are you talking about? it's practically ideal. it's just a hair over a 9:1 CR, and most FI cars that boost high are at max 9:1 and under. 

there are TONS of SRs doing 400+RWHP running around. many of them run 400+RWHP and then modify the internals later on down the road, and those are probably the ones that you're seeing. i've never seen a KA do more than ~350RWHP because that's where it's HIGHLY recommended to build up the internals. mainly because of the paper-thin ringlands. if you combo that with FI, you get a whole lot of kaboom.


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## sr20racer (Jun 29, 2002)

Having a motor with more tq then hp is not a good thing. Sounds like a truck engine. I just know that once you guys start building these KA's all the Japan tuners will copy and throw out there SR20's for the harbody motor, woops I mean KA24.


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## vsp3c (May 15, 2003)

i don't see anything wrong with a lot of torque. isn't torque the thing that makes your starts/accelertion faster?


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

torque is REAL, measurable power, whereas HP isn't. i'm not understanding your logic sr20racer. if you had absolutely NO torque, there would be no HP, sooo....you make the conclusion yourself. 

it's not like the KA will make extreme amounts of torque where you'll burn through your tires in one launch or something. come on, be realistic.


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## sr20racer (Jun 29, 2002)

Let's see somebody turbo a stock internaled 110K KA24 and boost 7PSI everyday and see how long it lasts. I boosted my SR and the things is FAST. If I can remember right TQ is a made up number, on a dyno the HP is really measured but the TQ is a calculated number. SR owns all day. The day I get beat by a KA24 that has the same mods as me is the day I buy a Honda hatchback.


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

yes, torque is a real thing in the world of physics! and horsepower is real also! but just because you have no torque does not mean that you cant have a care that will out run the po po! In fact Mazda has proved this for years and years! take their Turbo charged ROtary engines (the RX7) for instance! Those engines might have 230rwhp, but there only gonna have half the torque! which means (and i know from experience) that you can pull up to the line in a sentra SE-R and take him off the line! If your launch is good, youll be able to take him all the way through 1st and most of second! but where it lacks in torque, it makes up for it twice fold, in horse power! Once that sucker hits boost lets just sat that you will get a short glance at the rear of the car before it becomes a little dot in your windshield! so the facts are out there if you wonna look, that just because you have no torque, doesn't mean that you dont have a street demon! And besides if you sr20'd the 240 it gives you a 47/53 weight ratio, which is almost perfect! Wooooo Hoooooo SR20 Power any day!


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

hp is wut u see torque is wut u feel!


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## drift240sxdragqueen (Oct 23, 2002)

the diff between anthony jackson and bumpin240sx's avartar is that anthony's her boob comes out which makes it 100 times better


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

> hp is wut u see torque is wut u feel!


i couldnt have said it any better myself! you really hit the nail on the head!


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## C-Kwik (May 1, 2002)

I think this is a debate that will never end. If I were looking to build a cheap 12 second 240, the SR would probably be easier. You can probably run a high 12 on a stock SR with stock Turbo with maybe some fuel system mods. But that will be seriously pushing the turbo. 

As far as a KA being weaker, consider for a moment that a motor is a motor. Turbo charged or not, they are mechanically the same. Save for the lower compression factories tend to use for turbo cars, and perhaps some beefier components. But overall, they work the same. And no matter what, each of these parts have limits. The bigger differences I see are the displacement and rev limits. The KA is bigger and the SR can rev higher. Higher revving motors can make more HP. Bigger motors make more torque, which equates to more HP. Kind of a wash if you ask me. You can compare the iron block to the aluminum block. the rocker valve train of the SR to the direct valvetrain of the KA(DOHC). Stronger rods and pistons of the SR to the weaker ones of the KA(stock). The list goes on and on. Part of tuning any motor is correcting the weaknesses so you can make more power. The SR has the advantage that research has been done extensively by the aftermarket. But that's no reason to discount the potential of the KA. 

As far as dynos, they measure torque, not HP. HP is calculated. HP is the amount of work done. HP can not be felt. Torque is what you actually feel move your car. But HP is more important to look at when determine how fast a car will be since it gives you a bigger picture, which includes how gearing can make a difference.


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## anthony jackson (Jul 16, 2002)

very well said!


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## mrfox (Mar 11, 2003)

> torque is REAL, measurable power





> HP is the amount of work done.


LOL My thermodynamics professor is going to roll over in his grave when he hears this....

EDIT: I'm being an ass... just ignore me


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## DRIFTER-J (Feb 28, 2003)

Ok a KA has more torque but is proven to lose Hp at top end while mister Sr has top end like a biachhh I top at 169.2 in stock internals pushing 16psi YEA!!BABY!!!!!!


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## C-Kwik (May 1, 2002)

mrfox said:


> *My thermodynamics professor is going to roll over in his grave when he hears this.... *


Care to elaborate, or would you rather rest your case with your dead professor?


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## bizzy b (Apr 13, 2003)

DRIFTER-J said:


> *Ok a KA has more torque but is proven to lose Hp at top end while mister Sr has top end like a biachhh I top at 169.2 in stock internals pushing 16psi YEA!!BABY!!!!!! *


 have you ever looked at the dyno for a _TURBO_ KA? hell, just int/exh mods, new cams and ECU tuning will make the KA keep making power to redline. add a turbo to the equation and it will easily stand up to a comparable SR, and will make that same power with less boost and more torque. "what good is torque" you say? i'd rather have [email protected] than [email protected] anyday. who wants to have to rev the crap out of their engine just to get it into the powerband? i prefer the "point-and-shoot" method.


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

C-Kwik said:


> *Care to elaborate, or would you rather rest your case with your dead professor? *


Horsepower is the measurement of torque over time.
The definition of 1 horsepower is the ability to do 33,000 pounds-feet of work in one minute. (this actually comes from the average figure that a horse can exert 180 lbs. of force) 

HP = (Revolution length * RPM * torque applied) / 33,000

Using a moment arm length of 1ft, one revolution of a 1 ft lever will have a circumference of 6.2831853 ft
So HP = (6.2831853 * RPM * Torque) / 33,000

which is simplified to
HP = (RPM * Torque) / 5252 

so torque and hp are equal at 5252 rpm...


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

The Jun Speedworks S15 Silvia (s13 red top SR20) here in Perth pulled 732hp at the wheels at Motorvation 2002. Obviously its got some serious gear.


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## C-Kwik (May 1, 2002)

Joel said:


> *Horsepower is the measurement of torque over time.
> The definition of 1 horsepower is the ability to do 33,000 pounds-feet of work in one minute. (this actually comes from the average figure that a horse can exert 180 lbs. of force)
> 
> HP = (Revolution length * RPM * torque applied) / 33,000
> ...


I'm not sure if the point you are making is actually in response to my post. I'm well aware of the HP/TQ equation. My main point is that since the output of the motor is rotational, a dyno would have to measure the torque. Then from the Torque and RPM, HP can be derived, using the equation you mention.


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## sr20racer (Jun 29, 2002)

makes sense.


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

C-Kwik said:


> *I'm not sure if the point you are making is actually in response to my post. I'm well aware of the HP/TQ equation. My main point is that since the output of the motor is rotational, a dyno would have to measure the torque. Then from the Torque and RPM, HP can be derived, using the equation you mention. *


Yes - thats how its worked out.
It was more an answer to previous incorrect statements rather a response to your post. Probably shouldnt have quoted your post


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