# T3/T4 hybrid turbo; GA16DE; 5psi



## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

How much horsepower do you think this setup would produce to the ground with 370cc injectors and a HKS AFR?


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> How much horsepower do you think this setup would produce to the ground with 370cc injectors and a HKS AFR?


sigh........


if you dont like feeling power till 5000rpm, youll prolly get around 200hp. the 1.6 doesnt flow enough air to turn that big ass turbo.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

WAYYYY Too big a turbo for the ga16.

also at 5psi it's probably not even efficient.

also, you'd still need the 240sx MAF........intercooler, larger exhaust, blah blah.

seriously...everyone's already said what size turbos are best for the ga16.......trying to find a cheaper alternative is just not going to work.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm glad you replied so negatively because I know someone who personally is running 160 WHP and 150 lb ft of torque from his ga16de with this setup. His car starts boost at 3000 RPM.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels...ction=display;threadid=16330;1531021095712262

check this link out. This is the only documentation on it.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> I'm glad you replied so negatively because I know someone who personally is running 160 WHP and 150 lb ft of torque from his ga16de with this setup. His car starts boost at 3000 RPM.


I actually thought about a T3/T4 setup a LONG time ago, however I opted not to go with that setup for a number of reasons. You can offset the lag issue by running a smaller exhaust housing however that can also limit overall power output in the fture. Second most are not internally gated so you have the added cost and complexity of installing an external wastegate. Third the T25's and T28's can support quite a bit of power and are about the same price and make for an easier install. the money you save on the T3/T4 over a T28 (if at all) will be offset by having to purchase an external WG. 

And OK great your firend is making 160 WHp with that setup. He could have made that with a T25, bought a used one and spent less money, and the install would have been easier. Oh and it would be more responsive. 

Lastly if you are going to ask about setup's like this you need to specify what trim values are being used on the T3/T4 as there are MANY different configurations.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

skimmed through first few pages of that link... saw no dyno, no pictures...

he's lying out his ass... he's running 6psi... he lists in his part list on the 1st or 2nd page that he is running 8:1 compression... no way in hell that nets 160whp on a GA16DE...


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## NotAnotherHonda (Aug 7, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> I'm glad you replied so negatively because I know someone who personally is running 160 WHP and 150 lb ft of torque from his ga16de with this setup. His car starts boost at 3000 RPM.



thats HORRIBLE, considering a t28 makes more than that on the 1.6


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I knew this would spark controversy. Thank god I saved the dyno sheet. I'll also find the page so you don't have to search for the dyno sheet. Plus the reason he didn't make more power is because his fuel pump maxed out during the dyno run. Since then he has upgraded the fuel pump, but he hasn't dyno'd or tuned again because of hurricane Ivan. Pay day is coming up and we are going for 180 WHP and eventually 200WHP. Yes he could have made the same power with a T25 or T28 but this kit came very cheap. His mechanic decided to sell his car and the turbo kit seperately. The mechanic needed to settle down and stuff. My criend/ cousin got the kit for under $1000 US. $60,000 JMD. So basically, we got it for a deal anyway.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

NotAnotherHonda said:


> thats HORRIBLE, considering a t28 makes more than that on the 1.6


At what boost?
Plus this car hasn't even finished tuning yet. This is how it starts out.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

SCC project sentra turbo makes 230-240 WHP with a t28, cams, ECU, and water injection at 12 psi.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Plus the reason he didn't make more power is because his fuel pump maxed out during the dyno run. .


My fuel pumped didn't max out at 238whp.. yes stock Nissan fuel pump.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> SCC project sentra turbo makes 230-240 WHP with a t28, cams, ECU, and water injection at 12 psi.


That's an SR20 not a GA16


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> SCC project sentra turbo makes 230-240 WHP with a t28, cams, ECU, and water injection at 12 psi.


that's a sr20de...


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> SCC project sentra turbo makes 230-240 WHP with a t28, cams, ECU, and water injection at 12 psi.



dude, you are an idiot.


seriously.......if you aren't going to listen to the 2 people with the most powerful turbo GA16s known (who use T28s and variants, and NOT gigantic t3/t4 turbos) then don't post this bs.

starts boost at 3000rpm? On a t25 you'll be at full boost probably around that or 3500 rpm and still make the same power.

that's 3000rpm of pure lag on a relatively weak motor in n/a form with a big exhaust.

really, really dumb way to go.


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## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

http://cars.ign.com/articles/457/457452p1.html A clear explanation of why the T3/T4 is not a good option as other members have said.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

chimmike said:


> dude, you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> seriously.......if you aren't going to listen to the 2 people with the most powerful turbo GA16s known (who use T28s and variants, and NOT gigantic t3/t4 turbos) then don't post this bs.
> ...


http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=16330;start=280

Here is the dyno.
and 230 WHP is not impressive for a SR20DET with that many mods.


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## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

shift_of_legend said:


> and 230 WHP is not impressive for a SR20DET with that many mods.


It is if you have full power instantly.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I've driven this car myself. Trust me, it spools at 3000 RPM.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Ok I went through all 18 pages and I am not hating on that setup. Anything custom/different is cool by me. I am wondering though if the fuel pump in your cars are different than ours as I had the stock one in when I did my dyno. pulls.

Also unless you guys have a different tranny. the SR20 clutch or PP will not fit... not sure what's going on there. 

And as for the low compression pistons he did comment on how the boost builds sooner with low comp. pistons. Actually that's false, it will build boost more slowly, the benefit is being abel to run more boost. I am curious to see what power he will achieve with the fuel system sorted out. Keep us posted regardless, anything that is not the norm. is always cool to see. 

Oh and I wanna see some pics. of the turbo setup.


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## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/main.htm

"Effectively, a turbo charged engine is a normally aspirated engine until the turbine and compressor spin up. To minimize turbo lag, it is imperative that the turbine and the compressor are properly matched to the engine as well as the engine being properly matched to the transmission gears, the ring and pinion gears, and the tires."


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

NickZac said:


> It is if you have full power instantly.


it seems I was talking about NPM's sentra
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/july03/project200sx/

Now I've read this article countless times, and that engine don't look like no SR20 to me.

Myoung, I have mad respect for your work. In fact your work is my staple. I would never come on here and insult nissanites in the way in which you all are insinuating. Just look, this car makes as much WHP as the NPM ga16det did at 8PSI. 

Just open your minds. Myoung, you of all people are known to be an optimist.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

looking at that dyno... boost hits full peak at near 5000 rpm.

I hit full 10psi at 3600.

he may start spooling at 3000... but that doesn't make that much of a difference...


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> it seems I was talking about NPM's sentra
> Just look, this car makes as much...t3/t4 is just not a good choice in this case.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James said:


> looking at that dyno... boost hits full peak at near 5000 rpm.
> 
> I hit full 10psi at 3600.
> 
> he may start spooling at 3000... but that doesn't make that much of a difference...


James what you're saying is very true. But without traction and a gearbox to handle the power he's putting down, spooling slowly makes sense. I have a friend who is using a much smaller turbo, and is putting out 165 WHP and 144 lb ft of torque from a 1.3L swift GTi. His car spools at 1500 RPM. His car literally has no use in first and second. Imagine a best of [email protected] MPH on the 1320. On the road his car feels scary.

I'll send pics soon.

As for the turbo spooling faster with the lower CR, it's because the timing went up. The timing was really low on the stock 9.9:1 pistons which made is sluggish.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

i have no problems with 1st and 2nd unless I want to have problems with it.

having a faster spooling turbo makes everyday driving more pleasant imo... not talking about a turbo so small it makes power at idle... just properly sized...


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James said:


> i have no problems with 1st and 2nd unless I want to have problems with it.
> 
> having a faster spooling turbo makes everyday driving more pleasant imo... not talking about a turbo so small it makes power at idle... just properly sized...


James, Our cars are JDM's. They come with a different final drive than you do. Believe me, we will have ridiculous wheelspin compared to you. I will never not knock your knowledge and experience. But in Jamaica we have JDM cars and our cars behave different from those in the states. We use the info from Mike Kojima, Bob Legere NPM, SR20Forums, sentra.net and this forum as guides but not gospel because of our slight diffences. Our cars have 9.9:1 CR stock your has 9.5:1 stock. Our cars have black valve covers, lighter crank, conrods, and pistons than the silver top GA16DE. I'm not sure if you guys have the black top. We have a different gearbox setup on our cars. We have take these differences with caution when tuning. This car is very pleasant on the road, I can tell you that much. I am telling you this from direct experience.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

i have a black top ga16de.


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

James said:


> i have no problems with 1st and 2nd unless I want to have problems with it.
> 
> having a faster spooling turbo makes everyday driving more pleasant imo... not talking about a turbo so small it makes power at idle... just properly sized...



even at idle james, there would be no problems.. hell... with a T10 (super tiny lawnmower turbo) you COULD make boost if the throttle is open.. but, when idling, or taking off.. wait.. yea.. that would make it fun.. the GA is almost destined to be with the T25.. or T28.. MY ka on the other hand.. a t3 super 60 is pretty peachy


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Sorry folks i'm gonna help Shift_Of_Legend out a bit here

he's my cousin and my car is the one in question.

you need to take a couple a things into consideration when you think about my setup, 

1)it came cheap
2)in jamaica it is difficult/expensive to get performance parts for my type of car (n15 pulsar) and my kind of engine.



> so he uses 6psi to make the same power, wtih a LOT more lag, as a t28 equipped ga16 does at 8psi and is in full boost by 3500-3600rpm, while the t3/t4 equipped GA16 makes it around 5000rpm?
> 
> you realize that cuts almost 2000rpm of useable boosted power from the powerband, right?


true and true but, i need to ask, what rpm range do you guys race in? you dont drop below 4300 rpm when you shift, well at least i dont. and if you look at teh dyno graph thats right in the meaty part of power.



> Also unless you guys have a different tranny. the SR20 clutch or PP will not fit... not sure what's going on there.


yes it does fit, will someone educate this dude for me please.



> "Effectively, a turbo charged engine is a normally aspirated engine until the turbine and compressor spin up. To minimize turbo lag, it is imperative that the turbine and the compressor are properly matched to the engine as well as the engine being properly matched to the transmission gears, the ring and pinion gears, and the tires."


ur absolutely right, and thats how i want it, if you ask shift_O_L he'll tell you exactly how driveable my car is off boost, i can cruise around town and never hear the turbo spool. the car is very predictable and comfortable to drive and then when your ready you can unleash the beast that is the t3/t4 on whomever your racing against ..... see above lines ..... "what rpm range to you guys race in again?"



> And as for the low compression pistons he did comment on how the boost builds sooner with low comp. pistons. Actually that's false, it will build boost more slowly, the benefit is being abel to run more boost.


i agree with you your absolutely correct, it shouldnt feel more responsive ... but as Shift explained thats because we could advance the timing a little more... when we originally set the car up we had the timing set to 0 degrees advance .... because we didnt want to mess things up till got to a dyno ...

the thing is we went to the dyno after i put in the low cr pistons and we turned the timing up to 5 degrees advance, notice still way way low, this also explains some of the slow spool time but we left it low cause the fuel pump couldnt manage any more.'




> dude, you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> seriously.......if you aren't going to listen to the 2 people with the most powerful turbo GA16s known (who use T28s and variants, and NOT gigantic t3/t4 turbos) then don't post this bs.


tsk tsk tsk, we've never disrespected anyone in this forum... reject me or Shift as chatting s**t but u nuh affi do it dat deh way deh ( a little patois here for yah), look man we're engineers just like you (albeit software engineers) but we're trying something different. yeah we know what you folks suggest but lord have mercy, have you no imagination. you should be happy someone is trying something different. as nissanites we sorta have a duty to do things differently... we cant get stuck in a rut like some a them other tuners ... especially them honda a**h***s

kindly be a little more open minded ... this car is already gaining noteriety in JA ... its stirring up alot of attention because out here basically every nissan tuner goes teh sr20 route ... if there are 5 turboed ga16's on the whole island then there a million... my setup is simply unheard of but it is gathering alot of interest because of the results ... so try to be a little more supportive.

and also remember that the car is still highly i repeat HIGHLY untuned yet i am already beating the s**t outa alot of other nissanites, mitsu's, yota'a and hell of a whole lot of honda's ... we'll get the pics out to you as soon as possible and y'all jus chill the f**k out in the mean time.

peace


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> Sorry folks i'm gonna help Shift_Of_Legend out a bit here
> 
> he's my cousin and my car is the one in question.
> 
> ...



OK educate me on how the SR20 clutch fits in our tranny. Ubless you have a different tranny, to my knowledge it does not fit in the US cars. I even started out by stating that you may have different tranny's. Now your coming accross like your talking shit. Take it easy and watch what you say..... There was simply something I didn't understand and I questioned it. 

Since my first post in this thread I have done nothing but try and show my support for doing something different, hell that's why my car is where it is. 

And regardless, be sure and post pics. I am interested in seeing how your setup is put together.....


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## asleepz (Feb 24, 2004)

Once you find out you don't get boost until 5K RPMs please send me your turbo it would make a great replacement for my T3 on my VG30ET. Make sure to get ball bearings too because I would like that


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

you dont need such a large turbo for only 5psi. now if you have plans to make a lot more power, say 350+whp...then step it up. a t3/t4 will work, it has been used before with great success on similar small displacment motors. saying it wont work is like saying you cant get a fwd street car to run 9s


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

javierb14 said:


> you dont need such a large turbo for only 5psi. now if you have plans to make a lot more power, say 350+whp...then step it up. a t3/t4 will work, it has been used before with great success on similar small displacment motors. saying it wont work is like saying you cant get a fwd street car to run 9s


First things first, yes he does plan to up the boost. We are aiming for 200WHP initially. The am is eventually 300WHP but we want the car to stay reliable.

SKD Tech: The cars boost starts at 3000RPM. Where it reaches max, I never checked. Not sure how you can tell from the graph where it hits max either. At 3000RPM the car surges forward and races to redline.

Wes: Thanks for the support, I guess my cousin got upset because everyone is calling him a liar. I must admit, when he told me he was using an SR20 clutch I thought he didn't know the difference between a grape fruit and a turbo or his mechanic is a liar, but I went to the garage and saw it myself. So I realized that ok, it seems Japan decided to save on money by recylcing the parts bin. Second thing was when we went to the dyno we were both expecting 140 WHP max. When we came we saw 146 WHP at 5psi, the boost was turned down for safety after the Low CR were put in and the engine was being broken in. We were satisfied with the 146 because we thought hey, it's a big turbo, small engine. Then I realised that this baby was way lean. 13.5:1 AFR. So as Skets richened the fuel we saw HP go up to 160 WHP at somewhere between 13:1 and 12.8:1. At that point I was thinking hey, we've got something here. When we decided to richen some more we realised the HKS was maxing out the injectors. This we found strange because they are 370 CC injectors. The graph and the HKS was indicating that fuel pressure was low. So it was decided to get a FPR and an additional pump to supply fuel. An inline mercedes pump was used. So now the injectors could be turned down or rather the AFM signal. 

He was suppose to dyno again, but hurricane IVAN came. Jamaica is still recovering from that. Not every where has electricity back yet. So as soon as CARS garage with the dyno is up and running, we'll be fuel tuning again, the increasing boost, then toying with ignition timing. I strongly feel that 180-200 WHP will come out the tuning. Hopefully more, but when it comes to a dyno I prefer to be conservative with predicting figures. If he gets a bigger exahaust and down pipe I know he'll make tonnes more. The reason I believe his car spools so fast is the size of the turbo manifold primaries. The most likely create great velocity. 

I won't knock anyones tuning methods. Our tuning methods are based on the fact that we have to work with what we have. There are people out here who were laughed at by every tuner when they wanted help with their diesel turbo power Toyota Mark II engine which is a 2500cc motor inline 6 similar to the old supra/celica back in the day. People said "yo that won't spool for crap, worse you drag racing in a heavy station wagon. Get a proper turbo." This same dude does 11's and the most amazing burn out that has only been out down by a supercharged mustang and a 800 WHP sc300 that is no longer with us because the dude who bought it, a lawyer crashed and died on his way to work. I think it does 400 WHP on the street low boost and high boost 600 WHP, 800 on track days (whether NOS or AV gas is involved, I have no idea). He may have had it on the high boost setting at the time. It wasn't pretty. Sorry to have side tracked, but basically, This kit was cheaply setup, and drives fine in my opinion. I've driven many turbo cars and this one is very civilized when you want it to be and very monsterous when you want it to be.

Oh and don't for get Lisa Kubo is now doing 7's in a FWD car. Peace


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Thanks cuz and wes for the replies ... is cool wes i understand your doubt, believe me i do but trust me it works!! on a side note though its a ga16 clutch with the sr20 pressure plate...

oh yeah and as for what i'm running, i have an lsd gearbox in there now, from which car i have absolutely no idea but thats what i got and it works ...

hmmmm its funny, how come chimmike and myoung havent replied ????


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

man if you want a T28 or GT28R down there for better response, you send me the money to buy one and I'll have it shipped down there for you. I just think it's a shame you're using such a monsterous turbo on that car and wasting all that rpm on lag! There have to be T25s around there in good shape from people upgrading the turbos on their SR20DETs....right?


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

probably, but it came with the rest of the parts for almost nothing... but like i said once i get this car back to the dyno we have all intentions of turning up the boost, furthermore my mechanic had this same setup running on more than 12 psi and his freind has a ga16 with teh same turbo running in the region of 20 ... so i'm unconcerned

like i said, think cheap and think fun ... you would not believe how monstrous this car is when i'm racing


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

At the drag strip, I've noticed that cars with turbo's that incur very little lag, have tremendous torque down low. This causes a loss of precious seconds even with LSD. The LSD helps greatly to reduce the slippage but there is still slippage. With a turbo spooling at 3000 RPM, the car can leave then line without much wheels spin, then go on boost and gradually build as it climbs. This also proves to be less harsh on the gearbox, leading to less failure. This car overtakes extremely well. Blip the throttle and go around the cars in front of you with ease. If skets only planned on running 5 psi or even 8 then I'd say get a smaller turbo. But he is planning on making formidable power and delivery with reliability. You will be faster on a qurter mile with a smaller sized turbo at high boost if you have a gear dependent boost regulator or an expensive LSD, but note the word expensive. We are basically trying to extract performance from a cheap car in an affordable way. This way we can bring more attention to the GA16DE's. PPl have so forgotten this car and only concentrate on the SR's and the QR25's. We have the GA engines and gearboxes in cheap abundance with no where to go and ppl spending there hard earned money for stock SR20DE's. Worse we have mostly bluebird SR20's which need a gt-s(sr18de) or se-r ECU to really turn heads. The 150 HP primera engines are even more expensive. Then you'll have to turbo these engines after that. Or you could go rob the bank and buy a sr20det. If it will make you all happy I'll turbo my car with a t25 or t28 from a pulsar gtir and see who is fast on the quarter and long stretches?

Remeber that skets is making as much HP as a 2000cc turbo mazda on 5 psi. This aint great but it's good.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Our tuning philosophy might be off, but let's see how it turns out at the dyno this wekend.

How in the world can you tell that this car hits full boost at 5000 RPM from the dyno graph?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

the torque peaks out there... check out the dyno in my sig for my ga16det.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James said:


> the torque peaks out there... check out the dyno in my sig for my ga16det.


Isn't that more of a head flow issue, cams possibly?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

no naturally asperated GA is going to make that much power even with lots of headwork. the power peaks that high because that is the point where its being fed the most boost... after that there is head flow issues..


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James, what's your turbo setup?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

sorry I erased the damn sig... I couldn't fit in the JWT turbo cams so I deleted it...

anyways... let me see... I got the t28 with the HS piping (manifold, dp) and 370cc injectors with 240sx MAF, forge intercooler, cold air intake for the turbo and a 2.5" exhaust... might have missed something...


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James said:


> sorry I erased the damn sig... I couldn't fit in the JWT turbo cams so I deleted it...
> 
> anyways... let me see... I got the t28 with the HS piping (manifold, dp) and 370cc injectors with 240sx MAF, forge intercooler, cold air intake for the turbo and a 2.5" exhaust... might have missed something...


What's your quartermile times?
Also do you know the area under your graph for either the HP or torque?

I will get skets to a drag strip and calculate his area under the graph and make a comparison to see how much skets is losing in comparison to your setup. This will be of great educational value.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

shift_of_legend said:


> What's your quartermile times?
> Also do you know the area under your graph for either the HP or torque?
> 
> I will get skets to a drag strip and calculate his area under the graph and make a comparison to see how much skets is losing in comparison to your setup. This will be of great educational value.


Unfortunately we are at different altitudes so those numbers won't be of equivocal value.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

my dyno pegs me at 171whp... you have a site or a method to calculate area under the curve? 

i haven't been to a track yet though I always say I will... i'm getting the turbo cams this week.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Unfortunately we are at different altitudes so those numbers won't be of equivocal value.


what altitude are you at in Jamaica? Can't be that high I imagine. I'm like 15 miles from the ocean... probably like 40ft above sea level...


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James said:


> my dyno pegs me at 171whp... you have a site or a method to calculate area under the curve?
> 
> i haven't been to a track yet though I always say I will... i'm getting the turbo cams this week.


http://www.teacherschoice.com.au/Maths_Library/Calculus/area_under_a_curve.htm

This is some what advanced math, but I've done it before so when I go home I'll consult the old math notes and calculate for both of us.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

ok i know calculus!!  give me some credit here! 

you can't calculate the area unless you know the function...


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

James said:


> ok i know calculus!!  give me some credit here!
> 
> you can't calculate the area unless you know the function...


sorry dude, I didn't mean to insult you, I really meant maybe you don't want to go through all that hassle. But if you know calculus you should know the function. :thumbup:


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

i'm sorry, maybe I'm not seeing it. what is the function of the hp or tq line?


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Oh and don't for get Lisa Kubo is now doing 7's in a FWD car. Peace


not a street car though


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> At the drag strip, I've noticed that cars with turbo's that incur very little lag, have tremendous torque down low. This causes a loss of precious seconds even with LSD. The LSD helps greatly to reduce the slippage but there is still slippage. With a turbo spooling at 3000 RPM, the car can leave then line without much wheels spin, then go on boost and gradually build as it climbs. This also proves to be less harsh on the gearbox, leading to less failure.


lag doesnt help with traction....setup you car correctly and you will have traction. besides, the majority of the quick turbo cars load the turbo and launch under boost anyways. a newer method of "traction control" is a stand alone timer based boost control. basically allows you to run different boost levels for x amount of time.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

javierb14 said:


> lag doesnt help with traction....setup you car correctly and you will have traction. besides, the majority of the quick turbo cars load the turbo and launch under boost anyways. a newer method of "traction control" is a stand alone timer based boost control. basically allows you to run different boost levels for x amount of time.


I'm not fighting your point. If you can afford good traction great. I'm just saying, from my drag racing experiences, on a budget, this method works.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> I'm not fighting your point. If you can afford good traction great. I'm just saying, from my drag racing experiences, on a budget, this method works.



what I see you doing is posting everything here but not wanting to accept what we have to tell you.

basically the fact is, lag is causing you more time than a little bit of spin would.

you figure you have 3000rpm of na 1.6L engine to push before boost starts....thats 3000rpm of a small engine breathing through a big exhaust and a long intake tract (the ic pipes, etc). 

If you had a T25 ( I have driven a t25 equipped GA16DE, and I had no problems with traction at the strip) you'd have a LOT more useable power, still make the same power as with that t3/t4, and the turbo would be in its efficiency range.

basically you're wasting a good 1000rpm with that t3/t4 because the t25 would have you at full boost by 3500rpm at the most. that's full boost. spool probably starting around 2200rpm.

Traction isn't an issue if you learn how to drive it, plain and simple. I had gone from 100whp to 190whp with my turbo setup. I used a T28. I spun off launch.......if I made it spin. I found that fine line between bogging and spinning, and when i launched there, i had perfect traction, with a .2 second spin before grab in 2nd gear....and the car FLEW! Oh, and I didn't have limited slip either.

Another great way to aid in getting traction: Apex'i AVC-R boost controller. Check out the functions of it sometime.


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

im just trying to state that the lag=traction myths isnt really true.

the timer based controller isnt really that expensive either...though im not sure if it includes the valve 

http://www.msdignition.com/2004/2004_13.htm

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=esearch.asp&N=100&Ntk=PartSearch&Ntt=msd7562


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## wickedsr20 (Aug 8, 2002)

chimmike said:


> basically you're wasting a good 1000rpm with that t3/t4 because the t25 would have you at full boost by 3500rpm at the most. that's full boost. spool probably starting around 2200rpm.
> 
> Traction isn't an issue if you learn how to drive it, plain and simple. I had gone from 100whp to 190whp with my turbo setup. I used a T28. I spun off launch.......if I made it spin. I found that fine line between bogging and spinning, and when i launched there, i had perfect traction, with a .2 second spin before grab in 2nd gear....and the car FLEW! Oh, and I didn't have limited slip either.


I have to agree with the above. You can get great responsiveness down low and make some impressive top end power with a T25. A member on another forum has posted a 12.8 quarter mile time with a T25 equipped DET even with the top mount intercooler on 22" slicks. On street tires, that should be good for a very low 13 second pass. It's all in the launch. 



chimmike said:


> Another great way to aid in getting traction: Apex'i AVC-R boost controller. Check out the functions of it sometime.


A wonderful boost controller. Independent boost levels per gear is only one of it's special abilities. It's worth the $$$ for what you get and what it can do.


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> I'm not fighting your point. If you can afford good traction great. I'm just saying, from my drag racing experiences, on a budget, this method works.


well. your drag racing expeirence must not be very good.. or you were lied to for a long time.. You would get wheel spin if you took michelin stock gay 175's to the track.. but if you took some nice MT slicks (as a true drag experience would know to use).. traction woudl not be an issue.. expecially with only under 200hp.. which is what you will probably end up making.. because your not taking advice.. and at around 200 hp your engine will blow up

to tell you the truth, im surprised this thread hasnt been locked yet.. 

i think NF has made its point

use a t25/t28.. thats what every other GA under the sun is using, and they are having no problems with it.. if they were i doubt people would use it


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

a t3/t4 will work...its basically a tradeoff of lag for more power. you wont get much more than 300whp with a t25/28 sized turbo. you will need, tuning, larger injectors than 370ccs, and a z32 or cobra maf to get to that power level though. who knows, maybe even a stock ga16de bottom end will support 300whp  

here is an example of why lag doesnt equal traction. this is one of our customers...integra street car, t4/t66, 28in slicks, motec, and a lot of power.
no traction vid, 1.7mb, wmv format


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## asleepz (Feb 24, 2004)

javierb14 said:


> a t3/t4 will work...its basically a tradeoff of lag for more power. you wont get much more than 300whp with a t25/28 sized turbo. you will need, tuning, larger injectors than 370ccs, and a z32 or cobra maf to get to that power level though. who knows, maybe even a stock ga16de bottom end will support 300whp
> 
> here is an example of why lag doesnt equal traction. this is one of our customers...integra street car, t4/t66, 28in slicks, motec, and a lot of power.
> no traction vid, 1.7mb, wmv format



I wonder how long they think a engine is going to last doing that?


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Well last he dyno'd he made 185 WHP can't remember the torque. This was at 12 PSI. But the motor can't take the 12 PSI so it was backed off to 10 PSI where 175 is the number. His exhaust is way too small so that has to be increased to atleast 2.5". 

Dispite the popular belief here, we aren't trying to prove that the t25 or t28 are not good. In fact I agree with you all. It is most likely the best turbo to use. Heck even the mighty SR20DE works best with the t28. So we aint trying to start a new wave. Basically, this is a kit some had with all the pieces (turbo, wastegate, intercooler, exhaust manifold and IC piping.), this was for a measly price.

Anyway, tuning isn't finished yet. Once the exhaust is changed and the waste gate, the tuning will begin again. Reason the wastegate is being changed is because it gives boost spikes so that aint gonna cut it. New waste gate and an electronic boost controller. Possibly a MSD BTM in the near future.

Thanks for the support nay sayers.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Well last he dyno'd he made 185 WHP can't remember the torque. This was at 12 PSI. But the motor can't take the 12 PSI so it was backed off to 10 PSI where 175 is the number. His exhaust is way too small so that has to be increased to atleast 2.5".
> 
> Dispite the popular belief here, we aren't trying to prove that the t25 or t28 are not good. In fact I agree with you all. It is most likely the best turbo to use. Heck even the mighty SR20DE works best with the t28. So we aint trying to start a new wave. Basically, this is a kit some had with all the pieces (turbo, wastegate, intercooler, exhaust manifold and IC piping.), this was for a measly price.
> 
> ...



Don't come on here saying "thanks for the support nay sayers" so generally. Glad that you guys got more power out of it, for a low buck setup those are decent results.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I notice something about alot of americans; they are torque drivers. They love low end grunt. They believe without it, you're slow. This is why most people underestimate the acclaimed high screaming VTECs. Reminds me of a guy who used to drive a golf and he bought an ALTEZZA with a beams 3SGE 210 HP engine it. It was tuned up a little in japan before coming here and they claim 250 WHP. The new owner said it felt slow. But then when he let someone who can drive a high RPM car he was amazed. He could never duplicate this drive.

Same with yall, You can't drive high RPM power making cars so you go for low end grunt because that's how slow your reaction is hehehe JOKE JOKE.

There is a guy here who is running a t78 turbo on his galant VR4. This car has a narrow power band as in boost comes in at 5000 RPM reaches max late in the power band. People laughed and said your power curve is going to suck, and you won't even do 13's. Well he was in 12's on his first try and 11's by the end of the day. Next time he went out he clocked 10's. Now everyone wants to know exactly what he did, because the lighter eclipse with 4G63 is suppose to be best with the t66 turbo. Hmmm go figure.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Thanks Wes...don't worry about the banter, us Jamaicans are abrasive by nature. Don't you see how much of us they deport.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> I notice something about alot of americans; they are torque drivers. They love low end grunt. They believe without it, you're slow. This is why most people underestimate the acclaimed high screaming VTECs. Reminds me of a guy who used to drive a golf and he bought an ALTEZZA with a beams 3SGE 210 HP engine it. It was tuned up a little in japan before coming here and they claim 250 WHP. The new owner said it felt slow. But then when he let someone who can drive a high RPM car he was amazed. He could never duplicate this drive.
> 
> Same with yall, You can't drive high RPM power making cars so you go for low end grunt because that's how slow your reaction is hehehe JOKE JOKE.
> 
> There is a guy here who is running a t78 turbo on his galant VR4. This car has a narrow power band as in boost comes in at 5000 RPM reaches max late in the power band. People laughed and said your power curve is going to suck, and you won't even do 13's. Well he was in 12's on his first try and 11's by the end of the day. Next time he went out he clocked 10's. Now everyone wants to know exactly what he did, because the lighter eclipse with 4G63 is suppose to be best with the t66 turbo. Hmmm go figure.



Whatever man, you are talking out of your ass here. No ONE in this countr underestimates Honda motor's or their lack of torque. you are not talking to a bunch of meathead domestic owners here... There is NO secret to driving cars that make power highe rin the rev range either, all you have to do is look at a dyno and realize your shift points, heck you can figure that out for the most part seat of the pants. As the previous owner of an S2000 I have pleny of track experience keeping the car higher in the power band. 

I don;t know what sparked this post but lets not turn this into a debate about who does what and why...


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> I notice something about alot of americans; they are torque drivers. They love low end grunt. They believe without it, you're slow. This is why most people underestimate the acclaimed high screaming VTECs. Reminds me of a guy who used to drive a golf and he bought an ALTEZZA with a beams 3SGE 210 HP engine it. It was tuned up a little in japan before coming here and they claim 250 WHP. The new owner said it felt slow. But then when he let someone who can drive a high RPM car he was amazed. He could never duplicate this drive.
> 
> Same with yall, You can't drive high RPM power making cars so you go for low end grunt because that's how slow your reaction is hehehe JOKE JOKE.
> 
> There is a guy here who is running a t78 turbo on his galant VR4. This car has a narrow power band as in boost comes in at 5000 RPM reaches max late in the power band. People laughed and said your power curve is going to suck, and you won't even do 13's. Well he was in 12's on his first try and 11's by the end of the day. Next time he went out he clocked 10's. Now everyone wants to know exactly what he did, because the lighter eclipse with 4G63 is suppose to be best with the t66 turbo. Hmmm go figure.


Its not an american thing. Its a nissan thing. You see honda folk throwing large turbos on their cars because their engines can rev that high regardless.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Thanks Wes...don't worry about the banter, us Jamaicans are abrasive by nature. Don't you see how much of us they deport.


HAHAHA that's funny....


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

If I had a shot to turbo I was gonna buy a t25 from a skyline. But my cousin decided on this route because of the low buck oppurtunity. I realise he aint doing too bad when I picked up an import tuner and they were tuning a the 240 sr. They have sr20det with new intercooler, t28 turbo from a s15 and downpipe. They tuned the fuel with a power FC I believe and got 230 WHP in the end at 0.8 bar of boost. Not sure what that works out to. When they got the stock engine in it dyno'd at 166 WHP.

Believe me when I saw the turbo I thought dude you're gonna take forever to spool and you'll need wiseco pistons and rods and 25 PSI. But when I drove it and the car shot from 3000+ RPM's I thought, damn not bad.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

That should bne 230 WHP at the end sorry.

Geez, you guys start out being mean to us like some bastard children. When we turn the heat on you suddenly we're talking through our ass. tisk tisk. Yes Nissan torque is beautiful.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Trust me, it's so bad the deport haitians here. The amount Haitians and actual Americans that get deported here and become street bums because they never had family here in the first place. Funnt stuff. You just have to be black and behave bad in Florida (kington 21 we call it).


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

so conclusion:
T25 good
T28 Best
T3 Not bad


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

shift_of_legend said:


> so conclusion:
> T25 good
> T28 Best
> T3 Not bad


true true, have to agree with that .... but bwoy if my turbo is laggy then i really dont want to drive a t25/28 powered ga16 ... i thin it might get annoying


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

skets said:


> true true, have to agree with that .... but bwoy if my turbo is laggy then i really dont want to drive a t25/28 powered ga16 ... i thin it might get annoying


The T28 and T28R are not laggy at all in a GA16


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

myoung said:


> The T28 and T28R are not laggy at all in a GA16



nope.. its not the turbo that is laggy, its the 1.6l that is laggy


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Chuck said:


> nope.. its not the turbo that is laggy, its the 1.6l that is laggy


hahahahaha too funny!!!

i have driven in a 1300 swift that had a td04 in it, and that thing started building boost from idle (more like 1200 rpm) ... and there was no way i would want to drive that car day in day out, not even the owner does...

i just like that i dont even have to know the turbo is there when i'm in traffic considering i am almost all the time.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Chuck said:


> nope.. its not the turbo that is laggy, its the 1.6l that is laggy


The only lag you would see in my GA would your car lagggging way behind...lol


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## scrub brush (Dec 31, 2002)

I'd like to know where those 8.0:1 pistons came from.


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

myoung said:


> The only lag you would see in my GA would your car lagggging way behind...lol



cause my car is barely running.. it has idle issues, NO cat/exhaust at all.. no nothing. im suprised it even starts.. oh wait.. it doesnt sometimes.. Im willing to be the KA will take the GA turbo from the launch... but thats an unfair race.. a heavily modded engine, compared to a stock.. comparing watermelons to apples.

The ga was a good engine for hte 2 years i had mine..

THe ka is a gas hungry son of a biscuit, that has extremly close ratio'd gears, a HIGH rear end gear set.. so highway mileage is gaynus.. 

the ga had nice gears... i liked them

still though.. the ga sucks in comparrison to nissans other engines... well.. its just a base model engine..


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

Chuck said:


> cause my car is barely running.. it has idle issues, NO cat/exhaust at all.. no nothing. im suprised it even starts.. oh wait.. it doesnt sometimes.. Im willing to be the KA will take the GA turbo from the launch... but thats an unfair race.. a heavily modded engine, compared to a stock.. comparing watermelons to apples.
> 
> The ga was a good engine for hte 2 years i had mine..
> 
> ...



what the hell does this have to do with this thread?


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## Nismo1997 (Dec 26, 2003)

chimmike said:


> what the hell does this have to do with this thread?


a hole alot of nothing :fluffy:


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=16330;start=480

Ok these are the pics guys, scroll down and continue till the end of the thread. N15 pulsar.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

James said:


> ok i know calculus!!  give me some credit here!
> 
> you can't calculate the area unless you know the function...


Just to add to that. I've done 3 years of calculus, and another year of Differential Eq., If you take a drawing of the dyno sheet, you can average out the "bumpy" functions into a bunch of "smooth" known functions, integrate each section individually, and add them up.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

you can find my dyno in my sig. if you want to add them up for me that'd be great!  thanks!


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

haha, maybe after I get out of class.


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

what the total cost of everything so far? or i should ask how much cheeper is it?


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

psr said:


> what the total cost of everything so far? or i should ask how much cheeper is it?


call it $2000 US and this includes all labour, and materials including gauges, AFR, turbo timer etc.... even the extra engine i bought.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

skets said:


> call it $2000 US and this includes all labour, and materials including gauges, AFR, turbo timer etc.... even the extra engine i bought.



that's a bit unrealistic for most people here in the states...so please try not to get anyone's hopes up


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

chimmike said:


> that's a bit unrealistic for most people here in the states...so please try not to get anyone's hopes up



sorry i just thought it would work out considering the availability of parts and difference in dollar value etc...


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

unfortunately I highly doubt it's possible unless the person is highly skilled himself and wouldn't spend any money in labor, welding, and fabricating.


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

skets said:


> call it $2000 US and this includes all labour, and materials including gauges, AFR, turbo timer etc.... even the extra engine i bought.



could you define labor, how much money did you put in twards paying someone else to do something, because couldnt you just do it your self and save some money? could you put up a price list also?


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

the only reson i ask is because i would rather get every thing new and pay a little more and have it last plus then i know it works. im not questionning your idea im just say that you get what you pay for. the way i look at it if im going to invest in my car ill only get the best so i dont pay for it later. 

Nissan / Infiniti 
200SX 1.6L Turbo System
with GT28RS ball bearing "Disco Potato" turbo GA16DE NS6020 $4,200 

that how much it is off the hotshot web site.....that nothing compared to some cars turbo kits, or at least good powerfull ones (agin im not saying that yours isnt as good but thats new and i do belive that you guys said yours are not new)

im not saying that the gt28 is better or worse im just saying that its not fair to campair price on two differnt turbos which gives out different results, at least price wise


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

dont think for one second that i'm s**ting on the hs kit.... quite the oposite. If i had the close to 10 g's it would cost me to get it i would  in a heart beat. problem is that that wasnt really an option for me. this is the only reason i built my own kit (albeit most of it was done already). i am happy now that i did things this way but not because of the performance (which isnt too shabby) but mainly cause of the knowledge i gained doing the whole thing.

before i started the most i could do to a car was put gas in it and maybe change a tire. now i'm pulling off fuel rails and disasembling and reasembling things without a thought. 


you are right, the hs kit wil (should) be more reliable, as most new things are. i just think that if you are on a tight budget and you want performance now and not in a couple a months/years and you only want good power gains (i.e. not looking ofr 300 whp) then making your own kit isnt a bad idea.


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

:fluffpol: true true :fluffpol:


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

I need some serious help with my car though

i am running 370cc injectors with a benz fuel pump rated at 180 psi and a bosch fuel pressure regulator. i currently use an hks super afr to manage my fueling but ... when i leave all my settings at zero the car doesnt bog and the fueling always seems to be fine for the boost. yes the fpr is a rising rate one, but is it that these things are that good? i honestly thought that i would have to make some adjustments to keep the car running rich.

does anyone have any experience with these fpr's.

furthermore i feel like i am wasting my time trying to squeeze extra ponies out of the car on a dyno, reason:-

i do a base run and it usually starts at about 145
i tune and get it up to 172-185
i leave and come back
i do a base run and its back to 145


do the OBDII computers compensate for boost?

what whould it take to convert a n15 (b14) to OBDI?

would using a b13 head and swaping the throttle body for an sr20 throttle body make a difference?

are there features on the b14 head that make it better?

would using an sr18 ecu and AFM make a difference (yes i know i would loose vtc but the car is boosted so i dont want the timing advancing anyways)?

i am currently using a 2" crush bent exhaust (to be changed soon), how much hp do you think i would gain by simply changing my pipe to say a 2.5" mandrel pipe or a 3" crush bent pipe (i ask about the crush bends because mandrels are ridiculously expensive in JA)?

how badly do you think my lower compression pistons are affecting my performance?

kindly give some answers...

chimmike, james, psr, ..., anybody gimmie some answers, i have just about lost my tollerance for this damn engine.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

oh and just to add, the car feels better with the setings on the AFR left at zero, it is more driveable however i make less power on the dyno.

when i richen up the mixture with the AFR:-

2000 RPM---->-15
2500 RPM---->-10
3000 RPM---->-5
3500 RPM---->5
4000 RPM---->+10
4500 RPM---->+15
5000 RPM---->+20
6000 RPM---->+25

the car does great on the dyno but feels like S**t on the road (it bucks like crazy between shifts, almost like its bogging). Explain please

btw the timing is set to 5 degrees advance.


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

I couldn't begin to tell you what is wrong with your frankenstein car... 

First for the compression... I run with the oem 9.5 (9.9, depending on who you ask) and I hardly have a problem anymore (after I switched to a much larger intercooler). A turbo engine is still NA until it starts making boost so you want to use as high of a compression as you can without detonation. 

The B14 head flows better than the b13 and does have differences in emissions equipment and stuff. 

The MAF will compensate for boost (more flow) but the ecu can only compensate for what it is programed for.

You should change to a 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust at least asap. You're exhaust is choking the crap out of your engine. 

I believe the oem fuel pressure regulator is considered a rising rate regulator (not sure).

The ecu learns as you drive so it could explain why you can "tune" it up to 175-185 hp on a dyno but later on drops down to 145 because that's probably as far as the ecu can go (without some sort of reprograming or assistance)... but again... you're car is frankenstein...


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Thanks James.

we're gonna try to ubolt the pipe tonight and see if that makes a difference.

btw what do you think would be the ideal timing setting for my car. is the 5 degrees advance too low (considering stock is 10)?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

well considering you lowered your compression so much I would say you could safely advance your timing a bit over stock but... I can't be sure how that computer deals with so many little factors...


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

are you saying that i should be able to advance it to 10+ on a turbo'd car... considering i dont have a btm?


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

yeah depending on what kind of fuel you're using you should be ok... this is a guess though... I have no idea how your car is running now or what kind of fuel management you're using.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

well the best fuel we have here is 90 octane piss....

can anyone spell D-E-T-O-N-A-T-I-O-N


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

oh yeah what about the ecu re-wire, what do i have to do to get an OBDI ecu to work on an OBDII car??


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

I have no idea on the ecu rewire... I would think a b13 ecu could run a b14 as well since the differences in sensors are small... 

be careful then with the timing... 90 is about as good as we get as well.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

cool, i got an ecu from a 93 sunny, but when i tried to directly connect it to my car it didnt work. i see on jim wolf's website where they show you how to wire a 96 ecu into a 98 sentra so i'm gonna hope that this will work with the 93 ecu as well....

i'll tellyou how it goes later


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

cool. good luck!


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

James said:


> The B14 head flows better than the b13 and does have differences in emissions equipment and stuff.



i thought the only different thing between the b13 and the b14 are the cams. and arnt the blocks a little different, so i thought you couldnt just bolt the b14 head on the b13 block..... but thats what i have been told somewhere on this forum. but they could have been wrong.


if they do just bolt on im so goning to pick up a b14 head and put it on my b13


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

psr said:


> i thought the only different thing between the b13 and the b14 are the cams. and arnt the blocks a little different, so i thought you couldnt just bolt the b14 head on the b13 block..... but thats what i have been told somewhere on this forum. but they could have been wrong.
> 
> 
> if they do just bolt on im so goning to pick up a b14 head and put it on my b13


As James said different sensor fittings and the like that make the swap a real PITA. The IM's are different as are the throttle bodies, and the B13 IM does not fit the B14 head. Not worth it unless you swap to a B14 motor which again isn;t worth it considering the performance difference.


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

wes said:


> As James said different sensor fittings and the like that make the swap a real PITA. The IM's are different as are the throttle bodies, and the B13 IM does not fit the B14 head. Not worth it unless you swap to a B14 motor which again isn;t worth it considering the performance difference.



all right :cheers:


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

wes said:


> As The IM's are different as are the throttle bodies, and the B13 IM does not fit the B14 head. Not worth it unless you swap to a B14 motor which again isn;t worth it considering the performance difference.



whatt????

i have a b14 head on a b13 block ...... works out nicer. the conrods are visibly thicker. as for differences 

the conrods are thicker
the pistons are different ... more ring thingies on the b13
the crank is thicker

couple a other minor things too


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> whatt????
> 
> i have a b14 head on a b13 block ...... works out nicer. the conrods are visibly thicker. as for differences
> 
> ...


Your emissions standards are different there, as such the IM's are different, no?


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes they are. Is that a problem? If so please let us know


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Yes they are. Is that a problem? If so please let us know


It means that the head swap is easier for you and harder for us because of the IM;s and EGR stuff. So it is not as cut and dry.


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## psr (Oct 6, 2003)

wes said:


> It means that the head swap is easier for you and harder for us because of the IM;s and EGR stuff. So it is not as cut and dry.



what does the EGR do?


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Oh, by the way, a t25 turbo and manifold has come skets way and if the price is right, he might pick it up. So your advice might not go in vane. The person however is undecided whether he wants to part with it. So we are applying a little pressure.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

god dammit shift, i am not gonna change my damn turbo, if is only to be deffiant i am so sick of f**king a$$hole nissan tuners telling me what is right for my car (no shift i dont mean you)

i have seen a nissan sentra with my specs running of 20 psi, the damn engine can take it, i just need to figure out why mine spools so late thats all, there is something wrong but it has nothing to do with the size of the turbo.

look at how quickly the turbo spooled when i took off the exhaust pipe!!!!


*UPDATE*

the reason i've been having so many problems with my car has to do with my injectors. the dude who sold me my 370 seems to have been mistaken, neither he, my mechanic or I am sure what size they are but they are clearly not 370, we've managed to get our hands on a set of 370's and were gonna install them and let y'all know what teh results are.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

skets, the simplest answer as to your late spool is also the correct one!

you've got a 1.6L engine

you're running a t3/t4 turbo.

the turbo is big. your engine is small.

of course you're going to have major lag like you do! Only way to change that is by using a small shot of nitrous off the line to speed up the spooling.

and yes, it's definitely going to spool faster without the exhaust on...but you compare your setup with your current t3/t4 and full exhaust and a t25 or t28 with full exhaust and the T25 or 28 will spool faster every time....giving you a wider, more useable powerband 

either way I'm glad to see your engine enjoys the abuse


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

chimmike said:


> and yes, it's definitely going to spool faster without the exhaust on...


yeeeeeaaaah so wouldnt a larger pipe than the 21/4" POS that i have on it now give me the same results, say for example a 3" mandrel pipe or something.

Oh yeah and i do think i need to go that big cause once i start running 15 psi on this turbo i'm gonna need it.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

3" mandrel bent piping will still not make a t3/t4 spool fast like a T25 man, you need to stop working around that and accept it.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

i dont have a problem with spooling, nothing significant anyways


after first gear i never loose boost, so whats the problem???


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

chimmike said:


> 3" mandrel bent piping will still not make a t3/t4 spool fast like a T25 man, you need to stop working around that and accept it.


or throw it on a dynojet and prove it.

Hey...skets could be right, of course that would make automotive engineers like Mike Kojima, the guys at Garret, and JWT all wrong. lol


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

haha...true.

oh well....maybe I just like smaller, more responsive turbos more than most others?


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> yeeeeeaaaah so wouldnt a larger pipe than the 21/4" POS that i have on it now give me the same results, say for example a 3" mandrel pipe or something.
> 
> Oh yeah and i do think i need to go that big cause once i start running 15 psi on this turbo i'm gonna need it.


Actually a larger exhaust will have the opposite effect, it will give you more power up top and slightly worse boost response. 

Who are you including in that asshole Nissan tuners statement?


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

me me me!! haha


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

wes said:


> Who are you including in that asshole Nissan tuners statement?


Seems like that would generally be anyone that has a different opinion


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

It has nothing to do with having a different opinion. I respect ur opinions very very much. Shift_o_l and myself read and re-read your articles all the time, for that matter if our boss's every new how much time we spent on teh net doing research we'd probably get fired. 

The thing is it is really annoying to speak to someone and have then tell you that your idea's are bull and wont work simply because the idea is different. I know the issues with my car already, i know the turbo is gonna be laggy... but.... i see the potential and i dont feel the lag you are all speaking about when i race. i launch the car really hard and first gear is the only time there is any noticeable lag. I dont see the boost fall below 8 psi at any point after 1st so if thats what you guys call laggy then i dont know what to say.

I would like to see a few different setups on this engine, i dont believe that the hotshot kit is the only way to go and i am sick of people telling to either buy teh hotshot kit or set my car up like that. 

i have the heard teh arguments against my kit and it all boils back down to one thing 

"the turbo is too big and its too laggy"

and i have answer this 

"the lag is not present when racing"

and no one has answered.

please mike and wes tell me whats wrong with my line of reasoning???


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

btw what times are you guys doing on the quarter ????

Our local drag meet is this sunday and i'm racing so i'd like to have some idea where i stand


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> It has nothing to do with having a different opinion. I respect ur opinions very very much. Shift_o_l and myself read and re-read your articles all the time, for that matter if our boss's every new how much time we spent on teh net doing research we'd probably get fired.
> 
> The thing is it is really annoying to speak to someone and have then tell you that your idea's are bull and wont work simply because the idea is different. I know the issues with my car already, i know the turbo is gonna be laggy... but.... i see the potential and i dont feel the lag you are all speaking about when i race. i launch the car really hard and first gear is the only time there is any noticeable lag. I dont see the boost fall below 8 psi at any point after 1st so if thats what you guys call laggy then i dont know what to say.
> 
> ...



Lag deos not matter when drag racing because of the point you made, however on the road race or autocross course in in the ral world you will have to down shift in order to get in the fat part of the power band, if the turbo was more responsive down low there is less need to down shift and is ultimately easier to keep in boost. 

The problem with your reasoning is that your not even looking at lag, your looking at the fact that your car can maintain boost when racing. Looking at where the turbo makes full boost in comparison to other turbo's is how you determine lag. It doesn't really matter though, if your happy with your turbo then who cares.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

wes said:


> It doesn't really matter though, if your happy with your turbo then who cares.



I agree with that 100%..



skets said:


> It has nothing to do with having a different opinion. I respect ur opinions very very much. Shift_o_l and myself read and re-read your articles all the time, for that matter if our boss's every new how much time we spent on teh net doing research we'd probably get fired.
> 
> The thing is it is really annoying to speak to someone and have then tell you that your idea's are bull and wont work simply because the idea is different. I know the issues with my car already, i know the turbo is gonna be laggy... but.... i see the potential and i dont feel the lag you are all speaking about when i race. i launch the car really hard and first gear is the only time there is any noticeable lag. I dont see the boost fall below 8 psi at any point after 1st so if thats what you guys call laggy then i dont know what to say.
> 
> ...




I don't..or least I haven't said your setup was bull.. I would love to see many options for the GA owners, But the simple fact is that we are talking about a 1.6 motor, the T28 is more than sufficent for the displacement. It's also the best choice for all around use. Now if you can prove the T3/T4 is better for strictly drag racing then I'm all for seeing it happen and give you credit for the accomplishment. 

I'm all for seeing where you take it. 

Also remember most of the discussions here have been based on what's best all around.. Not just on a drag strip. 

As many of us have stated in the past. Drag times are useless for determining over performance. Too many varibles to account for.. You know that. So when I say "I'm all for seeing where you take it" I mean I would love to see some dyno runs on the setup, not times.

Most of your comments have been things like "Doesn't seem to lag" Not noticable Lag" and so on and so on. The only way we will ever know is to see your power curve from a dyno.. At that point we can do some comparisions.

You can't test and tune a car properly on the drag strip.

How would others have taken it if we simply said "Well it seems like we break 200whp"? "Kinda feels like we are around 240whp now"

Tell you what... get it worked out.. get some dyno time.. and we will feature it in NPM..


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

wes said:


> Lag deos not matter when drag racing because of the point you made, however on the road race or autocross course in in the ral world you will have to down shift in order to get in the fat part of the power band, if the turbo was more responsive down low there is less need to down shift and is ultimately easier to keep in boost.
> 
> The problem with your reasoning is that your not even looking at lag, your looking at the fact that your car can maintain boost when racing. Looking at where the turbo makes full boost in comparison to other turbo's is how you determine lag. It doesn't really matter though, if your happy with your turbo then who cares.


u are right abuot that that downshifting to get into the meaty part of my power that is kinda annoying sometimes.... it is a drawback.

but thanks for answering nonetheless.... i only intend to drag race so its not that big a deal.

Oh and just for your information i advise everybody who asks me about turboing their ga16 to check this site and NPM's first


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

skets said:


> Oh and just for your information i advise everybody who asks me about turboing their ga16 to check this site and NPM's first


I appreciate that and the previous comments. :cheers:


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

what timing should i be able to run on a turbo ga16... i currently have mine at 5.

*** take it for granted that i am running 9.9 comp pistons


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

myoung said:


> I appreciate that and the previous comments. :cheers:


no prob, you should come to Jamaica one a these days you would be surprised how much respect you get out here everybody who's anybody knows your name and your achievements 

furthermore i honestly think there are several unique cars out here worthy of mention in NPM


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

anybody..... any idea's/estimates about the timing?????

we just need to make a comparison


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> anybody..... any idea's/estimates about the timing?????
> 
> we just need to make a comparison


We run 10 degrees WITH the JWT ecu, so I would imagine you could try it on your car. be careful though. If you run more timing you may want to run less boost initially. I am a fan of more timing and less boost as it helps response.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

wes said:


> We run 10 degrees WITH the JWT ecu, so I would imagine you could try it on your car. be careful though. If you run more timing you may want to run less boost initially. I am a fan of more timing and less boost as it helps response.



i kinda agree with the more timing less boost, however i noticed something on the dyno though, we kept the boost static and increased timing and the hp fell while the torque increased (or was it the other way around)

is that normal???

as for your timing, doesnt jim wolf program the ecu's to pull timing? in which case would ten be a good base for someone not running a jim wolf ecu?


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

skets said:


> no prob, you should come to Jamaica one a these days you would be surprised how much respect you get out here everybody who's anybody knows your name and your achievements
> 
> furthermore i honestly think there are several unique cars out here worthy of mention in NPM


Knock that off.. gonna inflate my ego...hahaha

Seriously, I appreciate the words.. but I'm just a car guy no better than anyone else.

Jamaica is on my list of places to go.. hopefully I can make it down there before too long. 

How'bout you be our man in Jamaica?

Send pictures and information for features. You can even write the features if you would like. NPM is still open source. Meaning it's open for anyone to contribute.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

I'll send you a few links and special articles (like an sr20 powered Nissan AD wagon with skyline brakes and all)... but till then

www.wheelsjamaica.com

thats the site to check if you want to get an idea of what our local import scene is like.


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