# mystery engine knock



## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

I work as a sole proprietor. I have a customer who has a 2005 Frontier SE, with the 4.0 engine. 114000 miles. In March of 2019, oil pressure was getting very close to 14 PSI, when the red engine oil light comes on momentarily at idle. I found some information on the cause being very common, and when I took the plates off the timing chain area for the oil passages, there was a 2 in section of gasket that was blown out. So I went ahead and resealed them with RTV, I went ahead and put new timing components on it for the heck of it while I was in there, and the oil pressure would still go low at idle just not low enough to ever kick on the red oil light.

two weeks ago the customer brought it back with the red oil light coming on at idle after full warm up and everything, I figured it's time to go ahead and two weeks ago the customer brought it back with the red oil light coming on at idle after full warm up and everything, I figured it's time to go ahead and replace the oil pump. So I get back in there, and I roll in New main bearings and replace all of the rod bearings. I figured why not, I got it from Rock Auto and figured that if I pull them out and they have a little bit of wear, but the crank looks fine, no problem putting in new bearings. By the way this is a manual, I hope the front of the crankshaft up with an engine holding device so that it wouldn't droop down. That was a fun job in very easy to do.

After getting it all back together, I start it up and the engine is knocking loud and Fast. I give it about 10 seconds for oil pressure to build up... Even though I thought it was weird that was so loud because I used good assembly Lube. The noise did not go away. The oil pressure came up to around two-thirds of the oil pressure gauge. So I started it up again and let it run for 30 seconds and revved up lightly to 2000 RPMs, and yet the knock was still there. I raise it up on the lift while running and put my hand on the engine and I can feel the knocking. So then after that I got pissed off punched a hole in the wall and threw my magnetic light across the shop and went to sleep.

about two hours ago I go ahead and pull the bottom pan off, and pull each Rod cap off one by one, and they all looked excellent and brand new... The bearing surface I mean, and then I put them back on and retorqued to 14 foot pound and then 90 degrees. Now I am stuck because I have no idea what could be causing the noise. It's a pretty loud rod knock from outside. One thought I had as maybe I forgot to put the O-ring in place where the oil goes back up into the engine to go everywhere. I thought maybe I would get a pressure reading if it was sucking it up into the pump, back down into the pan Orvis, and then it has to go back up a third hole to go to the engine. But the O-ring was there. I have never heard a knock coming from a main before. And to go ahead and pull that would be a major tear down again. So I wanted to come here and see if anybody else had weird knocking sounds after getting inside their engine. Perhaps something that sounded like a definitive rod knock, but turns out it wasn't. I also loosened the main bearing cap plate bolts, and retorqued them in sequence doing 20 ft lb and then 90°. I just wanted to see if perhaps I had one loose or something? I remember doing the job vividly. I don't think anything is messed up. I can't get any play out of the rods when I try to shimmy them. Besides going front to back on the crank, you should have that. But I mean up and down or to the sides. Not actually with the crank. Because again, you should have axial play on the crank a tiny bit. I did not roll in New thrust bearings, but I used a flat head to check both before I did the repair and after, and the end play felt exactly what I feel on engines when I do that measurement. I'd not take a measurement, but it feels perfect.

if I end up having to tear if I end up having to tear it down again, I'm not going to do it in place. I'm going to pull the transmission off, pull the intake off, disconnect some stuff, and put the whole thing on an engine stand after I yank it out. And then I'm going to beat it with a hammer and then please some thermite on top and light it on fire.

you have to excuse me you have to excuse me I'm getting pissed off just thinking about it. This should be my last job I ever have to do ever, and then I'm selling this house and changing Fields. It's such a kick in the balls that this would be my last job and this crap happens. Oh man... I'm almost out of here. Please help! Tell me the things!


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

Talk 2 text screwed up here and there, but not too terribly. The one thing that clarifies that I used a flat head screwdriver in order to pry the prank forward and rear word to check and play. It's just that I've been inside at least 100 engines at this point, a my career, so I knew that it was definitely good. Besides that I didn't have knocking before this whole repair


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

all right all right I thought I found the problem with this bolt being loose, forgot to tighten it, but it wasn't it. Just started it up again after getting everything back together, and this time I really felt it and heard it coming from the bottom left side of the oil pan, near the middle. In fact when I put my hand up close to it got super loud as a sound waves were bouncing off my hand and then the metal again and then my ear, and then I can put my hand on it and it muffled it a little bit, and then took my hand back off and it's just loud as ever. I feel like it can't be the rod bearings as I just took them all off one-by-one, check them out, they look great. But it's a really bad knot. You feel it so harshly when you put your hand on the engine underneath. And it's loud down there!


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## BRubble (Jun 22, 2014)

jacklane21 said:


> all right all right I thought I found the problem with this bolt being loose, forgot to tighten it, but it wasn't it. Just started it up again after getting everything back together, and this time I really felt it and heard it coming from the bottom left side of the oil pan, near the middle. In fact when I put my hand up close to it got super loud as a sound waves were bouncing off my hand and then the metal again and then my ear, and then I can put my hand on it and it muffled it a little bit, and then took my hand back off and it's just loud as ever. I feel like it can't be the rod bearings as I just took them all off one-by-one, check them out, they look great. But it's a really bad knot. You feel it so harshly when you put your hand on the engine underneath. And it's loud down there!


Jack,

I'm not a Professional Mechanic by any stretch, but my 1st thought is Maybe a Fuel Injector makeing noise. 2nd thought is Oil Filter, are you useing a Geniune Nissan Oil Filter? I know Baa Hum Bug Elementary, but maybe outside chance the Oil Filter might be restricting oil flow or not holding oil on engine shut down.

Hopefully one of the Nissan Guru's will be along shortly that can help you a lot more.

Regards,


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## BRubble (Jun 22, 2014)

""After getting it all back together, I start it up and the engine is knocking loud and Fast. I give it about 10 seconds for oil pressure to build up... Even though I thought it was weird that was so loud because I used good assembly Lube. The noise did not go away.""

Jack,

Thinking about this a little bit more, these are Interference Ingine's. Do you think one of the Valve's might be stuck Open and hitting the Piston? Or Maybe the Timeing Chain is a little bit Off on one of the Cog's which might be causeing a Valve to hit the Piston.

Let us know what the Final Solution is,
Regards,


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## rogoman (Dec 16, 2004)

jacklane21 said:


> After getting it all back together, I start it up and the engine is knocking loud and Fast. I give it about 10 seconds for oil pressure to build up... Even though I thought it was weird that was so loud because I used good assembly Lube. The noise did not go away. The oil pressure came up to around two-thirds of the oil pressure gauge. So I started it up again and let it run for 30 seconds and revved up lightly to 2000 RPMs, and yet the knock was still there. I raise it up on the lift while running and put my hand on the engine and I can feel the knocking.
> 
> about two hours ago I go ahead and pull the bottom pan off, and pull each Rod cap off one by one, and they all looked excellent and brand new... The bearing surface I mean, and then I put them back on and retorqued to 14 foot pound and then 90 degrees. Now I am stuck because I have no idea what could be causing the noise. It's a pretty loud rod knock from outside.


What was the actual oil pressure after you replaced the bearings? According to the FSM it should be as follows after the engine is fully warmed up:
Idle speed: More than 14psi
At 2,000 RPM: More than 43psi

When you replaced the rod/main bearings, did you use "Plastic gauge" to measure the bearing clearances?
Here are the specs:

- Rod bearing oil clearance: standard 0.034 - 0.059 mm (0.0013 - 0.0023"), limit 0.070mm (0.0028")
- Main bearing oil clearance: standard 0.035 - 0.045mm (0.0014 - 0.0018"), limit 0.065mm (0.0026")

CONNECTING ROD SIDE CLEARANCE:
● Measure the side clearance between connecting rod and crankshaft arm with a feeler gauge.
Standard 0.20 - 0.35mm (0.0079 - 0.0138"), limit 0.40 mm (0.0157")
CRANKSHAFT END PLAY
● Measure the clearance between thrust bearings and crankshaft arm with a feeler gauge when crankshaft is moved fully forward or backward.
Standard 0.14 - 0.22 mm (0.0055 - 0.0087"), limit 0.30 mm (0.0118")

If the clearances are at the limit, there will be some lose in oil pressure; beyond the limit, a very substantial lose.

Rod/main bearings as defined in the FSM come in several grade numbers (bearing shell thicknesses) from the factory. It all depends what grade number bearing was originally used from the factory and what size the journals were ground for a proper fit. Aftermarket bearings come in one size for a *standard* bearing; however undersize bearings are also available for cranks that are re-ground.


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

Alright, gonna tackle each response





BRubble said:


> Jack,
> 
> I'm not a Professional Mechanic by any stretch, but my 1st thought is Maybe a Fuel Injector makeing noise. 2nd thought is Oil Filter, are you useing a Geniune Nissan Oil Filter? I know Baa Hum Bug Elementary, but maybe outside chance the Oil Filter might be restricting oil flow or not holding oil on engine shut down.
> 
> ...


II have heard some loud fuel injectors..... but this ain't that! Lol! It sounds exactly like a rod knock (I say it like that, because it is not confirmed yet). Loud, coming from the bottom of the engine, and when your head is right under the oil pan, it kinda hurts to listen to it. The filter on it was a Napa gold. I had pierced it a little when taking it off and put on a napa Platinum after that. So the noise is present with 2 quality oil filters. I would like to add that OEM filters actually are NOT the best! They tend to be mid-range filters.




BRubble said:


> ""After getting it all back together, I start it up and the engine is knocking loud and Fast. I give it about 10 seconds for oil pressure to build up... Even though I thought it was weird that was so loud because I used good assembly Lube. The noise did not go away.""
> 
> Jack,
> 
> ...


Well, I must say that first of all, these are such wonderful engine with the timing procedure. I have done somewhere around 200-300 jobs total in the last 15 years since car school, and I LOVE the QV40DE timing marks setup. Line the dark links up. Timing marks are extremely visible. And also, the thing idles great, and revs (didn't go beyond 2000 RPMs) perfectly. If the noise wasn't there, would not even know there is a problem. And the sound is lound coing from the pan for sure. With the ears (mech stethoscope) on it, the sound is DEAFENING coming from the left side of the pan on the up-angle part, in the middle. Starting to think perhaps main knocking. Main knocking goes away under load, but you aren't really loading it that much with light, 2000 RPM revving. So perhaps the crank is still in a 'float' condition even with the revving. 




rogoman said:


> What was the actual oil pressure after you replaced the bearings? According to the FSM it should be as follows after the engine is fully warmed up:
> Idle speed: More than 14psi
> At 2,000 RPM: More than 43psi
> 
> ...




Okay, this is where the type of people who I call "torque Nazis" are going to cringe. There were no measurements taken. Why? Because The job was to replace the oil pump. I only rolled in new bearings because the crank looked nice. I mean, think of it like this: vehicle has no noise, which means bearing clearance was not an issue. New bearings installed and then knock knock. if anything, I tightened the clearance a tiny bit. Probably somewhere in the range of .0003 or less in terms of how much space I took up with new vs the old. I did just check to make sure I didn't accidently order an undersize and CREATE a huge gap, lol! ANd I know for certain they were STD given they were stamped. And the old ones were as well. And I am definitely the first person inside the engine. If you take a close look from my previous pics, you will see factory liquid gasket that smushed a bit into the oil return areas. Because they use a lot more than needed. And the brown/tan color of that sealant is a dead giveaway that no one had been in there after the engine was first manufactured (take note for those who like detective work!). So I knew that I was PROBABLY not dealing with a ground crank. And since the old bearings are stamped STD, I can safely assume that the crank has never been removed from the engine (excuse me for the minutiae, but I LOVE it). Now for oil pressure, I assume it was at around 45 or so at idle, and I did not want to run the engine for more than a minute since I never add coolant to a big job until I know the engine runs smooth when it comes to timing components being touched, let alone removed and reinstalled. So it never really got the oil past 60 degrees (my shop is cold).

Now when you talk about the clearances being at limit, that is why I went ahead and ordered bearings along with a pump when I first quoted the job. Of course, if the bearings were actually damaged or severely worn, I would suspect imperfections on the crank that would need machining. ANd if the bearings had worn to the point where you see the copper overlay, then definately not going to put in new bearings and call it a day. But with the babbitt showing nothing but a few captured particles here and there, and with my experience with various crank journal/bearing condition experience. I knew that putting in new bearings would only help with minute clearance gains from the 100K the truck has on it. But the logic is this: no noise and old bearings. New bearings and then knocking noise. Both were STD stamped. Just lost my train of thought.

And in then end, my warranty on repairs are rock-solid. This guy is now going to get his engine removed and looked over with a fine-tooth comb. The oil pump pays 9.2 hours. And now I will have so much removed that the customer may end up wanting a new clutch if I find it is worn past halfway for the cost of parts only. The thing didn't have a noise when it came in, so it's allllll on me now!

The best thing about this, is that I have never heard of something like this happening where new bearings went in and it made noise, then bearing caps removed, bearings look great, and reinstalled thus ruling out a missed loose cap, and it STILL has noise. So if someone searches the web in the future, they will see this and the upcoming answer to this weird problem after I find out what and post it. 

My fingers hurt from typing.


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## BRubble (Jun 22, 2014)

jacklane21 said:


> The filter on it was a Napa gold. I had pierced it a little when taking it off and put on a napa Platinum after that. So the noise is present with 2 quality oil filters. I would like to add that OEM filters actually are NOT the best! They tend to be mid-range filters.


I've heard that before lot's of time's by Owner's that say their Engine's have Knocking, Rattleing Sound's on Cold Engine Startup.
It's True the Nissan OE Oil Filter's are NOT the BEST in Micron Filtering, However Micron Filtering IMO is not the Whole Story. IMO Flow Rate is also Extremely Important. I did some investigateing the Nissan Oil Filter Year's ago and came up with a 20 micron filtering with OE Nissan Filter's which IMO will Flow better than say a 10 or 6 micron Filter that NAPA has.
I've read about Many Nissan Owner's useing a Better Micron Filter, but have knocking rattleing Engine noise on Cold Engine Startup.lol

All I really know is that I use a Geniune Nissan Oil Filter and my Frontier 4L V6 Engine doesn't knock and rattle on cold Engine Startup like some other's do that use a Better Micron Filter.lol

After reading your Replie's, it's probly not the Oil Filter, but I personally would use a Geniune Nissan Oil Filter in order to rule that possibility out.lol

Here's hopeing you get it Sorted out and have a Good running Engine again that will last a long long time.
Regards,


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

It now seems timing related. Something must have broke after re-installation. I will not be getting back on it for another day.... had to finish the other vehicles before getting back on this one. Being a one-man show, failed jobs can be a biotch to deal with! So I started searching online for nissan engine rattles. Seems like these engines, along with the 3.5 engines, make the EXACT same rattle when a tensioner guide breaks. 3 different engines on youtube sound exactly the same. I mean, I can really feel it when putting my hand on the pan. But the noise is unmistakable after hearing it on other vehicles. 
Will update again after a few days when I get it done. But I am relieved now that this odd rattle (thought it was a knock) is a known issue. Had I been a dealer tech, I would have known. But working on all makes, you get surprised every now and then.


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## 2016 Versa (Sep 24, 2019)

I'm not a professional mechanic and never claimed to be. I'm just a shade tree mechanic who wrenches on my own vehicles and know what it's like to have a problem during or after a repair and be at a loss for what went wrong. Did you verify timing is correct and that pistons and valves are not colliding with one another. If that's not the problem for the cost of a Nissan branded oil filter vs lots of extra labor I'd opt for the filter just to be 100% sure. I'm like you and doubt that's the problem especially since it came in with an aftermarket filter. Couple years ago I needed to change the crank seal on a '94 Ford Escort. I went to remove the timing sprocket and it was seized to the crank. I put a puller on it and the outer lip broke so then I had to get it off some way. I worked on it by myself for a day or two and never got it to budge. Finally I ask a neighbor to give me a hand and with us both working on it, me prying against the back side of the sprocket with a crowbar and him hitting a bolt screwed into the end of the crank with a hammer it came off after several hours of work. Removing a sprocket that should have simply slid off the end of the crank took longer that all the rest of the job. When I reassembled it I smothered the hole in the new sprocket with anti seize in case it ever needed to come off again.


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

You shouldn't use RTV on the oil gallery cover. Some have done this and the RTV blew out just like the original paper gaskets did, only much quicker. They updated those gaskets and they are much better than the originals. 






CZP Rear Timing Cover Oil Gallery Gasket Set, VQ40DE - Nissan Frontier 05+, Pathfinder 05-12, Xterra 05-15 13533-VQ40DE-KT B-7991A26X14 13533-VQ40DE-KT-AB - Concept Z Performance


Those rebuilding their VQ40DE have probably realized that it's impossible to get replacement gaskets for the oil gallery plates on the rear timing chain cover,...




conceptzperformance.com


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

Well I'll go ahead and get some gaskets from the dealer later today when they open. After all, I now have the timing cover back off. The thing that really sucks is that the only issue I can see, are some grooves in the secondary timing chain tensioners. They were there before, and with it being a new set I figured it's just because Nissan can't get their shit right even after many many years and engine redesigns and it's just going to continue grooving and I'll go ahead and replace it in a couple years again when it becomes a problem and gives that buzzing noise when it finally goes through. I hear that there is a different chain that is used now, or I mean that it is redesigned or whatever. But still doing it. And the grooves are not that deep. Around a quarter of a millimeter.

so I so I have a new timing set coming that will be here tomorrow and that will be installed. But there wasn't any other damage or anything else that I see that was wrong. There was great tension on the Chain, the plunger on the primary tensioner wasn't out far at all, no plastics were damaged for the other guides. But one thing for certain is that it sounds exactly like all the timing chain rattle so that you can search up on YouTube for the vq35 and the vq40. So I am 100% certain I am dealing with some sort of timing chain issue. And that's why it's going to get a whole new kit now.

I also I also am currently developing a theory that after all this stuff was done, perhaps I needed to let it run more than a minute and maybe even just go out and test drive and eventually it would have gone away after a couple minutes and never come back again. So once I get the new kit on there, and I'm sure it will make noise on start up again, maybe it will go away.

and then finally, if I and then finally, if I go out and test drive in that sucker does not go away, I'm going to owe the guy a whole new engine. I can go ahead and pull it and take it apart and measure everything and all that crap... But if it's still makes noise and I pull the engine, I'm not going to put the same one back in. I'm just going to get another. Also it's worth noting, and this doesn't come from a place of vitriol or anything do my experience, that these engines are junk. I think I was saying something before in a previous post about how I really liked these engines, but I was just saying that I liked how the timing process goes. It's fun and easy. It's foolproof... If you're a mechanic. But I have now learned and seen enough that I will never own a nissan myself. And I will now tell people that they are piles of crap. And I'm a fan of the Scotty Kilmer Channel on YouTube and he has been saying that the last Quality Nissan was built in 1999. And my story of trouble on this engine is purely anecdotal, however my research into the problems that these engines have with timing chain issues is not. That simply just fact. So thanks to this job, which has caused me to learn so much, I can confidently tell people that if they get a Nissan or Infiniti, they're asking for trouble. There are so many other cars out there that don't have such deep engine issues. And honestly there are many that have a lot of engine issues out there! Take the GM 5.3 Vortec. Piles of trash. Take any dodge. Piles of trash. Even Toyota had their run of crap engines from I think 2007 up to 2011? With their idiotic engineering of their Pistons. But basically I tell anyone if they want something that's not going to cause him a lot of issues down the road there is only one vehicle out there. ONE brand. Toyota/Lexus


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## BRubble (Jun 22, 2014)

jacklane21 said:


> Well I'll go ahead and get some gaskets from the dealer later today when they open. After all, I now have the timing cover back off. The thing that really sucks is that the only issue I can see, are some grooves in the secondary timing chain tensioners. They were there before, and with it being a new set I figured it's just because Nissan can't get their shit right even after many many years and engine redesigns and it's just going to continue grooving and I'll go ahead and replace it in a couple years again when it becomes a problem and gives that buzzing noise when it finally goes through. I hear that there is a different chain that is used now, or I mean that it is redesigned or whatever. But still doing it. And the grooves are not that deep. Around a quarter of a millimeter.
> 
> so I so I have a new timing set coming that will be here tomorrow and that will be installed. But there wasn't any other damage or anything else that I see that was wrong. There was great tension on the Chain, the plunger on the primary tensioner wasn't out far at all, no plastics were damaged for the other guides. But one thing for certain is that it sounds exactly like all the timing chain rattle so that you can search up on YouTube for the vq35 and the vq40. So I am 100% certain I am dealing with some sort of timing chain issue. And that's why it's going to get a whole new kit now.
> 
> ...


Hey Jack,

You are absolutely RIGHT Nissan's are just a Pile of Junk and this Link below PROVE'S it. Here's one that the Fellow just got tired of driveing it after a Million Mile's and Nissan gave him a Brand New Truck:






There was a 5 to 6 year period from 2005 to 2010 that Nissan had a problem with the Timeing Chain's on the 4.0L V6's. Some VQ40 engine's had a problem, and some didn't. Nissan did offer an extended warranty on that issue as well as the Defective Radiator's during those year's as well.

The more I've read about the Frontier VQ40 4.0L engine's the more important IMO, it is to keep up with the preventative maintenance, Don't Abuse It, to try and prevent haveing to do a Repair, cause it has been said that these Engine's are difficult to work on.

Anyway I hope you get it all sorted out. You know the Old Saying, Sometime's When It Rain's, It Really Pour's.

Regards,


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

Pure. Effing. Hubris. And on that note, Star Trek Picard is a disaster. Swearing in star trek makes me cringe. And this, coming from a guy who LOVES the C-word.

this is this is meant to be a playful and Spunky response. Your comments made me smile and I like you 

Edit: my talk-to-text picked up on some Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan in the background and I needed to delete that.


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

Well.... It was just a bent oil Splash Shield. I don't know how the hell I missed it the first time I took the fan off. I mean, the second time I took the fan off after it first had the noise but obviously I had it off before. I'm such a foolish fool  but I, like Drax, I am extremely humble. And I will tell you the truth always! I will never hide anything to make myself look less stupid or something. So Feast your eyes on this been boiled pan and where the crank has been coming around and touching it! See what I have done with my foolish ways!

and on a serious note, I have no idea how this happened... But it happened. I have no recollection of doing anything with it!


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

also I used also I used talk to text so there are errors like fan instead of Pan


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## BRubble (Jun 22, 2014)

Hey Jack,

That's Great Jack. I know this has been giveing you Fit's. It was a big job you were doing and Learning on the Fly as you were going along. I know you've done this on a whole lot of other engine's, but if I've read your post's correctly it's the 1st time on a Nissan VQ40DE. So you had to use your past experience to learn this engine as you went along.

I'm not a Professional Mechanic,, but I try to do all of the Preventative Maintenance on the '13 V6 Frontier, '04 Jinma 224 Diesel Tractor, and my 1988 MTD Rideing Mower. I'm hopeing that If I can keep the MTD going for 50 year's Maybe MTD will give me a New Mower! A lot of people don't think much of MTD's, but I guess MTD must have put "Run Long Oil" in mine. I've Repainted it a couple time's on account that the MTD Paint wouldn't stay shiney, Ignition Switch only lasted 20 year's, OE Seat only lasted 10 year's(On the 3rd Seat now), Front Tire's only lasted 29 years(Dry Rotted). Just a little humour. Just got a New AGM Batry for the MTD, off of EBay for 40 $'s Free Shipping for it. EBay and PepBoy's has got Really Good Price's on AGM Batterie's ~ Online and Free Shipping.

Thank You Jack for keeping us in the Loop and letting us know that you got it going; You should be Very Proud of Yourself.

Regards,


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## rogoman (Dec 16, 2004)

jacklane21 said:


> Well.... It was just a bent oil Splash Shield. I don't know how the hell I missed it the first time I took the fan off. I mean, the second time I took the fan off after it first had the noise but obviously I had it off before. I'm such a foolish fool  but I, like Drax, I am extremely humble. And I will tell you the truth always! I will never hide anything to make myself look less stupid or something. So Feast your eyes on this been boiled pan and where the crank has been coming around and touching it! See what I have done with my foolish ways!
> 
> and on a serious note, I have no idea how this happened... But it happened. I have no recollection of doing anything with it!


Good to see that you found the problem. What's the old saying: "shit happens". Stuff like this happens to the best of us. It even happens to rocket scientists.


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## jacklane21 (Feb 13, 2020)

Also, I don't know if I explained this before, but I'm using talk to text. Always. So if throughout this entire thread you find a bunch of things for me that don't make sense, it is because of bad technology. Not a bad brain!


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