# Clutchless shifting



## modenaf1 (Nov 12, 2005)

Just curious, but do any Sentra owners here with manual transmissions shift clutchless? I tend to use this technique because IMO it saves on the transmission, synchros, and clutch if done properly. I drive an old VW Golf and this technique is very easy the shifter either lets you in or it doesn't.

With my Sentra I noticed it is MUCH harder, the feel isn't nearly as good, and even when matching throttle to the car's momentum, the shifter in my sentra goes in gear very easilly, but it kinda grinds. Anyone else who clutchless shifts have this happen?

With the VW using gentle force on the shifter (as much as you would with a relaxed clutched shift), it either lets you in or not depending on how well you matched the throttle, so it is pretty hard to grind it unless you jam it in. 

Just wondering if anyone knows what differs in a transmission that would cause such a difference in feel. I think the linkages of the two cars are pretty much the same. It shouldn't have anything at all to do with synchro's because this has the same effect as double clutching.


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## B11sleeper (Oct 15, 2003)

the state of the syncros could have an effect as could the tranny oil.

I've only shifted clutchless when the clutch is gone ( hydraulic )


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## KevinFreeling (Apr 11, 2005)

mine usually goes in fairly easy when i powershift but i dont do it too often cus the shifter is stiff going in and out. its faster and easier to me to just use the clutch.
and ive heard its actually bad for your car (HEARD, not saying it myself) but i always use the clutch


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## SuperStock (Dec 31, 2003)

i shift up without the clutch in some situations and it doesnt grind at all
_downshifting_ is touchy w/o clutch


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## mikewiebe1987 (Nov 3, 2005)

this topic is taken from my dreams, ever shift a 16 speed with a tranny splitter, clutchless, my god that is tricky

(semi by the by)


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## bob89sentra (Sep 15, 2005)

I used to have an 83 VW GTIwith 180K miles, and it had an awsome 5 speed, and would shift into the gears nicely without the clutch. My sentra with the rebuilt 4 speed, is not as easy with out the clutch. I think the reason behind it is the syncros are better in the vw than the nissan. The syncros in the VW have a setup with a pressure surface that speeds the hub up first, with the standard beveled teeth doing the meshing. The nissan one has about half the beveled teeth, and no friction surface. 
I miss my GTI


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## velardejose (Sep 9, 2004)

In my old 71 vw bug (2.0l) it was very easy (had a bar to connect shifter to stock gearbox) and fun to drive
In my 87 sentra its rough to say the least, I dont like to do it
Peace


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## modenaf1 (Nov 12, 2005)

Ah yes, my 89 Golf goes in real nice. It is strange, with the Sentra shifting up (like as in 2nd to 3rd) is quite tricky, but downshifts come easy. Usually I do it from 2nd into 1st and it works quite well.

The thing is though, how could syncros matter because don't the syncros only come into effect when you use the clutch? The reason I think of it like this is because in most cars first gear isn't synchronized, so you can only get it in first at a really slow speed. To get it into first at 20-25 MPH you have to either:

1.) Double clutch
2.) Clutchless shift

So I thought that those two methods of spooling the engine and the transmission up in neutral to match the RPM's totally bypassed the use of the syncros.




> this topic is taken from my dreams, ever shift a 16 speed with a tranny splitter, clutchless, my god that is tricky
> 
> (semi by the by)


Semi eh? Man that is one hell of a heavy flywheel you gotta spool up (or down).

Oh well, since a few of us are on the topic of our old VW's, another thing I like about the VW is the clutch is nice and firm, doesn't catch right off the floor like in the Sentra, and it seems to have more oomph to it, like if you don't kiss the catchpoint with more than a couple grand of RPM's it is easy to stall it or get an unsmooth launch. Japanese cars these days feel like the clutch is designed for ultra ease of use but not much else.

EDIT: Hey, bob89sentra, just noticed we are in the same state. Awsome.


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## Biscuit (Mar 5, 2005)

Whoa...you can shift going down the road without pushin the clutch in?


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## Popkorn (Nov 16, 2003)

Some times you have to lol. Like when your clutch shatters. I wouldnt recommend it on these Nissans. Good way to break syncros. You clutchless wonders getting 5th gear pop out yet?
A little off topic...When I raced bikes, the only time you ever used the clutch was at the starting line. A buddy had bought a new GPZ 750 (new in 1981) and you could hold the throttle wide open while holding a hard steady upward pressure on the shift lever and it would shift like an automatic when the tach hit 9G. That guy is in jail right now serving a sentence for running a stop sign and killing an elderly couple. FU'ed off his ass. He was driving a Datsun 510 they figure at least 110mph.


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## modenaf1 (Nov 12, 2005)

No 5th gear pop-out yet with about 180K on it. Although I don't really clutchless shift the Nissan very much because it is pretty hard to do in the Nissan without grinding something. But usually if you just push it with as much force as it takes to shift shift normally with the clutch in, you will be ok.

Another thing about the Nissan I noticed, it is quite hard to get it into reverse sometimes. Is this normal? I havn't ever really experienced that on a manual transmission car before.


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## bob89sentra (Sep 15, 2005)

Syncros always engauge the gear, weather you push the clutch in or not. The clutch just allows the syncros to match the unput shaft speed to the hub speed with less effort. As for no syncros in first, they haven't made a car since the late 60's that doesn't have syncros in first. Our nissan defenatly has syncros in all five foreword gears, I know because I rebuilt my transmission, and every gear but reverse had syncros. 

modenaf1 you live in colorado? where abouts? I live in Colorado Springs
It is weird you mention that it is difficult to get it into reverse. I have had the same thing on my 4 speed, but did not have it in the five speed. The four speed I bought from a local auto wrecker, and when I tried all the gears in the doner car they were normal, and the reverse was easy to get into. When I got it home I pulled it apart, and claened, and rebuilt the whole thing. There is a plate on the bottom of the transmission that has two phillips head screws, that covers a spring and two ball bearrings, and mine was filthy. The spring has a round disk on the inside that holds the shifter to the center, and spring loads to the right (you have to compress the spring to put it in 5th or reverse) Since I have a four speed, I noticed that after rebuilding the transmission that reverse is tighter than before. It seems to take a little more pressure to move it over to reverse, then the other gears but I don't mind. If anything it makes it less likely for me to grind it in reverse while going foreward.


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## modenaf1 (Nov 12, 2005)

bob89sentra said:


> Syncros always engauge the gear, weather you push the clutch in or not. The clutch just allows the syncros to match the unput shaft speed to the hub speed with less effort. As for no syncros in first, they haven't made a car since the late 60's that doesn't have syncros in first. Our nissan defenatly has syncros in all five foreword gears, I know because I rebuilt my transmission, and every gear but reverse had syncros.
> 
> modenaf1 you live in colorado? where abouts? I live in Colorado Springs
> It is weird you mention that it is difficult to get it into reverse. I have had the same thing on my 4 speed, but did not have it in the five speed. The four speed I bought from a local auto wrecker, and when I tried all the gears in the doner car they were normal, and the reverse was easy to get into. When I got it home I pulled it apart, and claened, and rebuilt the whole thing. There is a plate on the bottom of the transmission that has two phillips head screws, that covers a spring and two ball bearrings, and mine was filthy. The spring has a round disk on the inside that holds the shifter to the center, and spring loads to the right (you have to compress the spring to put it in 5th or reverse) Since I have a four speed, I noticed that after rebuilding the transmission that reverse is tighter than before. It seems to take a little more pressure to move it over to reverse, then the other gears but I don't mind. If anything it makes it less likely for me to grind it in reverse while going foreward.


Thanks for the explanation of syncros. I must have been thinking of something else that first gear doesn't have because in just about every manual transmission car that I have driven (except for a Volvo which allows you to go into first at just about any speed), you can downshift into just about any gear at any speed putting the clutch in normally, except for first gear which has to be either done at near a complete stop. 

Double clutching or clutchless shifting lets me into first very easily at faster speeds.


As for my location, I'm more in the Denver metro area/suburbs. So far I have only seen one 1989ish Sentra Coupe like mine.

Mine is a 5 speed and it isn't so much that it is hard to get it into reverse, but more that sometimes it just won't let me into reverse. Sometimes I have to shift through a few of the gears and it will let me in, sometimes it is as simple as putting it into neutral, taking the clutch out and revving it a bit, then trying. It is more a matter of it just physically not allowing you into reverse sometimes. I actually recently experienced this on a Subaru too and had someone talk about their Honda doing the same thing. So far on the VW I have never had this issue.

As for the car popping out of fifth sometimes, I sure hope it has a rev limiter as I would hate to be under full throttle and have it pop out into neutral! I would assume that under that much load it would be near impossible to get it out of gear though.


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## SuperStock (Dec 31, 2003)

in my VWs u could nearly always shift w/no clutch and it wouldnt protest in the least.

like bob's sentra, when my car's under load, u cannot shift it without using the clutch. its best to not even try shifting under load w/o the clutch, unless u care little for the car in general


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## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

clutchless shifting<shift lock :thumbup: 

i guess your older cars dont have it though lol


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## cozzmo (Sep 16, 2004)

SuperStock said:


> in my VWs u could nearly always shift w/no clutch and it wouldnt protest in the least.
> 
> like bob's sentra, when my car's under load, u cannot shift it without using the clutch. its best to not even try shifting under load w/o the clutch, unless u care little for the car in general



the idea is that you can't shift under load, even with a dog box you need to unload the gearset first or you'll damage the dogs...


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## Red_Coupe (Mar 20, 2003)

mikewiebe1987 said:


> this topic is taken from my dreams, ever shift a 16 speed with a tranny splitter, clutchless, my god that is tricky
> 
> (semi by the by)


yep I drive a t-600 kenworth 13 spd. I use the cluch for 1st, reverse,and at a stop. every day...


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## modenaf1 (Nov 12, 2005)

SuperStock said:


> i shift up without the clutch in some situations and it doesnt grind at all
> _downshifting_ is touchy w/o clutch


Well, I take back my comment on downshifting being easier for me. It seems pretty equal now, somtimes it lets me into a higher gear no problems, sometimes it lets me downshift no problems, but more than likely either is pretty hard. Sometimes it lets me have way in and I feel the gear shift rumble. O_O My technique with the rev matching is exactly the same, but it almost feels like when the transmission is cold it goes easier. Hmm oh well, either way up or down is pretty tricky so I might give up on trying to do it, I take it when the shifter rumbles or it grinds, that isn't a good sign for the future of my synchros.

It would be cool to have a Tremec T-56 in the Sentra.  lol That thing is probably so beefed up you could pull off clutchless upshifts in the Sentra under wide open throttle! hahaha


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## SuperSentra4203 (Dec 17, 2002)

Why would you shift without the clutch :loser: Thats is by far the most stupid things i've ever heard of. You are damaging your transmission!!! Whether you think your right, your not. Any mechanic with a brain will tell you this. You guys can't be this lazy. If my lazy ass can drive a Trans Am daily for the past 10 months with a Centerforce Stage 3 clutch using it every time, there is no reason to not use your clutch unless you have a broken leg.


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