# 99 SI vs. 97 SE-R



## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

heres a question???? has anybody with a SE-R with intake and header taking a 99 SI civic with no mods. The guys at work think the SI could take the SE-R but i think it would be very close if not a win for the SE-R. I know if i get a JWT ecu i would beat it. What do u guys think


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2003)

my friend has an 97 se-r with hot shot header, hotshot CAI, custom cat-back with magnaflow muffler, UR pulleys, upped timing, jwt ecu and cams, GC's w/agx's, mad suspension mods, but a real shitty torn up clutch, and he raced a 99 si civic with header, greddy worldsport exhaust ,aem cam gears, apex-SAFC, Injen CAI and short shifter, and the se-r was winning out of the whole, btu slipping and gears( i think the clutch affected it) and the si slowly gained and started to pull and won back bumper to front bumper. it was a close race


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

*Not even close*

This is totally in the wrong forum. Lets try a little harder to post these in the appropriate places. We're not saying this just for shits and grins, you will get more/better responses if it is posted in the right place.


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

i'd say the se-r would take it out.....but i'm kinda partial, the se-r would launch outta the hole, but the Si might catch up at the end


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## 4Play (Oct 16, 2002)

Stock for Stock the 200sx SE-R will loose. But with a little mods the 200sx SE-R will not loose by much. Good luck. Race the guy. 



--------------------------->
90 Sentra
92 Stanza
92 1BAD SE-X
96 240sx currently being built S15 swap. 
2001 Pathfinder


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## Overlooked (Jul 10, 2002)

The civic should be caching you around thrid gear. Get the ECU and you will have no problem with a civic. Also you have to watch where you shift.


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## nss200sx (Jul 16, 2002)

i can say 1st hand that my 96 se-r wit hotshot cai and custom catback exhaust beat my friends 99 si wit juss an intake.....those cars are close stock vs stock....so its basically on how well u can drive


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## deception se-r (Jul 24, 2002)

i took one rather easily from the launch and was able to stay ahead till the end of the 1/4, we kept going and he caught up and past me slowly. he had i/h/e and all i had was a jdm sr20, cai, advanced timing. he had a confused expression on his face when i told him my mods.


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## yu yevon (Nov 21, 2002)

An Se-r should be able to be a civic Si. The reason is, with my ga16 the si only beat me by a half of car. i had exaust and a filter. he had a cai. Come on beat down that si.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

thanks guys for all the info... i seemed to get a pretty good response in the wrong forum... next time i'll try harder


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2003)

i call bs on the ga keeping up with the si!!!!!!!!!
hahahaa thats funny shit!!
i have a ga and they are not in the same class as the si after sevral mods!!


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2003)

BTW i know longer THINK of you as a foo


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

ok, here's the REAL deal. 

with equally competent drivers in both cars, the SI will beat the SE-R at about 2nd gear. the SI will beat the SE-R time and time again, without much trouble. (taking into consideration that both are still stock). 

you guys are really taking this "there's no replacement for displacement" thing to heart. i mean, geez! the difference in displacement between the two engines is not much AT ALL! it's not enough to make a world of difference between the two cars racing. 

the SI pulls in close to mid 15s (about a 15.7, on average). whereas, the 200SX SE-R pulls in 16 flats, on average. stock for stock, you would want to compare the SI to the Sentra SE-Rs. the Sentra SE-R will give the SI a much better run for its money since it's lighter. 

when you race an SI, think of racing a GSR. if you can't beat a GSR, you can't beat an SI. it's really that simple. stock for stock, the GSR and SI run practically the same 1/4. even though the GSR has .2L more (even though it's not a TRUE .2L), the B16 head flows A LOT better than the B18 heads do. plus, the Civics have better aerodynamics than those of an Integra.


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

I agree on the overall point of your post, but dissagree on a few specifics.

Integra's actually have slightly better aerodynamics than the Civic (.34 CD vs .36), but have a little worse gearing. Also, GS-R's ARE a *little* faster than Si's (@15.5 vs @15.7). 

Otherwise, you pretty much pounded the nail right on the head.

Seriously, half you guys sound like the posters' on my friends Chevy Beretta board. They are all about being able to beat Si's and other 4 cylinders due to having V6's.......that is until they race a fast one (strangley enough, the fastest Berettas are GTZ's with a 2.3L 4).

Take it from me (I've raced 4 Si's when I was stock and NEVER won), Si's are PLENTY fast to give an SE-R a great run with a good driver at the helm.

BTW.....there is NO chance that a GA16 Sentra can even come close to an Si unless the Civic driver is a one armed crack head with his thumb up his butt.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

ya i would like to see that GA16 race a SI and only lose by that much. thats like racing a civic ex and having it only lose by half a car length to a 200sx SE-R. Stock to stock Si will win i know this but... since nissans (sr20's) get more hp per mod i think you could improve your time by.3 to equal the SI (with equal drivers) so i think CAI and headers will equal and even beat a stock si. On another note i think i would almost take a SR20VE over a DET just to piss off some V-TEC buddies of mine


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> BTW.....there is NO chance that a GA16 Sentra can even come close to an Si unless the Civic driver is a one armed crack head with his thumb up his butt.


 [email protected], that's a good way to put it Be hard for the S.O.B to shift with that poor arm around his back with his thumb searching for some "Doo-Doo"...Nasty boyeeeee


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

Yeah, what's been posted so far pretty much mirrors my personal experience owning some of the cars mentioned.

The Si is faster stock for stock but it's close enough to be a drivers race most of the time. GSR's are slightly faster than Si's. Classics are slightly faster than 200SX's. Si's are harder to launch than SE-Rs. Launching on a track surface is different than launching on the street. All of these cars respond well to mods. Any of these cars can beat another depending on how well tuned they are (stock), how good the driver is, and which aftermarket parts were chosen in the I/H/E basic upgrade path.

Personally I like my B14 SE-R the best. Better than my Si, and slightly better than my Mexican B13 SE-R.


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

Yosho said:


> *Yeah, what's been posted so far pretty much mirrors my personal experience owning some of the cars mentioned.
> 
> The Si is faster stock for stock but it's close enough to be a drivers race most of the time. GSR's are slightly faster than Si's. Classics are slightly faster than 200SX's. Si's are harder to launch than SE-Rs. Launching on a track surface is different than launching on the street. All of these cars respond well to mods. Any of these cars can beat another depending on how well tuned they are (stock), how good the driver is, and which aftermarket parts were chosen in the I/H/E basic upgrade path.
> 
> Personally I like my B14 SE-R the best. Better than my Si, and slightly better than my Mexican B13 SE-R. *


Couldn't have said it better myself.........in fact I didn't.


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## Katana200sx (May 13, 2002)

eh.....the si only makes 130-140 whp whereas the gsr makes maybe 150-160 whp. but a se-r thats modded should take a comparably(sp) modded si. atleast to a point. vtec kicks in in the upper rpms so the se-r will kick ass time and time again off the line. its just a matter of how good of a driver each of you are and how far ahead you are when vtec kicks in.


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

no. the SE-R will not "kick ass" off the line, time and time again. the difference in displacement will NOT make that much of a difference on the launch. it will be dependent on whether or not the drivers can hook up their tires or can launch decently. 

do you have any SOLID numbers of what the SI and GSR make to the wheels, instead of just your numbers that you're grabbing out of thin air? no, obviously you don't. the numbers that you're guessing for the GSR are horribly wrong. why? the USDM GSR makes 170hp to the crank/fly. there is no way in hell that the GSR will make anywhere near 160FWHP. that would mean that the GSR would have less than a 10% drivetrain loss. somewhere in the neighborhood of 6%-8%. 

and you DO know that if the driver of the SI has ANY shred of intelligence, whatsoever, they would know or TRY, at least, to stay in the engine's powerband. which is 5k RPM and above. and that is not that hard to do.


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## SuperSentra4203 (Dec 17, 2002)

I have raced a few SI's first hand. I found out that 19-22 years old punks who buy them around here don't know how to race. They always seem to shift below the V-TEC crossover, plus the 2nd to 3rd gear shift is always screwed up. They put on 19" rims, a cheap ass intake and APC muffler, and think it's fast. They always have a 150lb bass box in the rear, which plays hell on the launch, since Civics have shitty torque anyway. Out of about 3 races, i've lost one. The only mods I have are open headers and intake, and of course a stripped out interior. Honda owners are about rice, not race. The only problem around here is not Hondas, but one two many turbo DSM's and a few S13 240sx's, and now SI owners won't race anyone. Because of this, I have no one to play with!


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

Well let me say this. I have intake, '91 intake cam and custom exhaust...

I have raced si's on the highway pretty much the same mods and can walk an si on the highway from third on up. 

I also raced a gsr (highway) and he couldn't catch me until 4th (well above 90 mph)

Interesting to note i did race a 200 se-r (he had another passenger) and i blew by him like he was in a civic dx hatchback

O

ps I have also witnessed a ga16 running 15.8 in the quarter so yes they can keep up with an si


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

When my '96 200SX SE-R and my '00 Civic Si were both stock I did some head to head testing of them both. What I found was that contrary to the popular belief, the Si will almost always take the SE-R off the line if both are launched correctly.

My best guess is that on the street, a lot of Si owners launch too low... this is probably true of most SE-R's as well... it's just more of a problem with the Si because the power band is higher. Launch low, go slow...

 

These results surprised me and my friends... but I still like SE-Rs better. The cars are close enough that most of the time it's a drivers race. Once mods are thrown in it's all about who has the most $$$. Pay to play you know.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

i know that the 200sx SE-R has limited slip so it helps a lot in launching. Does the SI have a slip?


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

onyxeros said:


> *Well let me say this. I have intake, '91 intake cam and custom exhaust...
> 
> I have raced si's on the highway pretty much the same mods and can walk an si on the highway from third on up.
> 
> I also raced a gsr (highway) and he couldn't catch me until 4th (well above 90 mph)*


well, i would hope that you could beat those cars. a stock '91 Sentra SE-R pulls in close to the SIs and GSRs (as i already stated in an earlier post). 



> *Interesting to note i did race a 200 se-r (he had another passenger) and i blew by him like he was in a civic dx hatchback*


the 200SX SE-Rs are heavier. obviously you have a better power to weight ratio compared to the 200SX, not to mention your SE-R is also modded.


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

ccroaddog said:


> *i know that the 200sx SE-R has limited slip so it helps a lot in launching. Does the SI have a slip? *


Nope, and it will pull to one side when launching with wheel spin (which is how it should be launched). It's not hard to control however... just something a driver needs to be aware of.


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

Actually, BOTH cars need the wheelspin, so as others have stated, the SR20DE's torque advantage isn't a big factor......it's about getting hooked up.

The perfect spot for hooking up on an SE-R is 4800-5000rpm (actual launch rpm depends on surface).......this has been borne out by numerous track runs for me, and this is where I get the combo of the best 60' times and 1/4 times. If you bog it down to 3500rpm or so, the 60' times are almost identical, but 1/4 suffers due to not having the rpm off of the hookup to really pull through 1st. This is explained simply by looking at the SR's torque curve. Anything below 4500rpm is too lacking in torque, so you need to hookup just before the torque peak for a good launch (the tach error means that a 4800rpm hookup is actually more like 4600).

Si's, may not have much torque overall, but they have a large spred from 3500-7500rpm, where 90% of peak is available over the entire range. Still....."I" at least haven't ever been outlaunched by an Si (strip or street), but I get pulled up high.....it sucks. Of course, I haven't raced one from a dead launch since I advanced my timing....soooooo.

BTW.....Integra GS-R's dyno from 144-152 whp in most cases. Si's are 135-143whp.........


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

That's exactly what I have found to be true too. I didn't want to bring it up because it seems to be a sore point for some SE-R owners. I found with my stock tachs that lauching around 4800-5k was best in the SE-R while 5300-5500 was best on the Si. The trick with the Si is to launch just right so that as soon as the wheels start to hook up the car is in vtec. That's why it's a more difficult car to launch than the SE-R. Launch too low and it either bogs or takes too long to get up into vtec. Launch too high and you'll have to let off in order to get traction. If you launch an Si correctly, the tq is quite sufficent. A few years ago when I raced my stock Si against my stock B14 SE-R with the help of a good friend... the Si would take the SE-R off the line. Didn't matter which of us was driving either car... as long as we launched at the same time the Si always won out. We went head to head about 20 times experimenting as we went.

Before anyone jumps in here to tell me I'm wrong, please remember that I'm not saying you can't beat an Si. Just that if launched correctly, stock vs. stock, the Si is faster. Driver knowledge and skill... as well as mods (obviously) can totally change the outcome... so basically it's close enough to be a drivers race. Have fun hunting Si's... as many have said, you CAN beat them (even stock vs. stock).

SE-R's are better IMHO...


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

Yosho said:


> *SE-R's are better IMHO...  *


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2003)

*lol*



boost_boy said:


> *[email protected], that's a good way to put it Be hard for the S.O.B to shift with that poor arm around his back with his thumb searching for some "Doo-Doo"...Nasty boyeeeee *


thats funny shit!!


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## 4Play (Oct 16, 2002)

I usually launch around 3300 to 3500RPM nothing more.. too much wheel spin. It also depends on the Road condition. Lauching the car at 4500RPM.....WOW....scary!!


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

Yosho said:


> *Yeah, what's been posted so far pretty much mirrors my personal experience owning some of the cars mentioned.
> 
> The Si is faster stock for stock but it's close enough to be a drivers race most of the time. GSR's are slightly faster than Si's. Classics are slightly faster than 200SX's. Si's are harder to launch than SE-Rs. Launching on a track surface is different than launching on the street. All of these cars respond well to mods. Any of these cars can beat another depending on how well tuned they are (stock), how good the driver is, and which aftermarket parts were chosen in the I/H/E basic upgrade path.
> 
> Personally I like my B14 SE-R the best. Better than my Si, and slightly better than my Mexican B13 SE-R. *


Hey Yosho why do "you" like the sr20 over the b16? And would you rather have DET or VE


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

I like the SR20 over the B16 because it's a better engine for daily driving. The B16 is a higher strung engine... which is great when you want to drive fast, but it can be a bit annoying in a daily driver. 

I'd love to have a DET or a VE. Now, if I could only stop spending money on all my other hobbies...  We'll see, I have both a B13 and a B14... so if everything goes right maybe I'll be able to wind up with one of each.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2003)

DONT WORRY ABOUT SI (DOCT VITEC)I BEAT A LOT OF CIVIC EVEN GSR ACURA I RACED IN 1/4 MILLE LIKE A 4 TIMES WITH ACURAS,PRELUDE,SE-R,ACCORD,AND THE LAST TIME WITH S2000.I GOT MANY ESPERIENCE, IF U DONT TRUST ME I HAVE SOME PICTURES OF THE RACES I DONT SPENT MY GAS ON CIVIC LOL....I LIKE TO RACE WITH ACURAS IN 1/4 THEY CAN'T CATCH ME UNTIL 4 GEAR..... THAHS THE FIRST TIME I GONNA TELL MY SECRECT : I HAVE HEADERS, INTAKE,EXHAUST 2'1/4",CLOUCH, THROTTLE BODY PORTED,PISTONS, AND THE MOST IMPORTAN I GOT A JAPANESE TRANMITION IS MORE SHORT THAN AMERICAN ALSO USE GASOLINE 135 OCTANOS I BUY THIS GASOLINE AT THE LOCAL AIRPORT LOL......SO, I FEEL VERY PROUD OF MY SE-R ALL MOTOR......IN PRO STOCK 1.8 TO 2.4 INGEN MY SE-R IS THE BEST.........


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

I want to raise a point that the civic SI and the GA16DE 
200SX SE are closer competition that you are stating. I've hurt some SI
owners feelings more than once. and they had mods. I have barely any. 
yes an SI is going to stomp a 200SX SE but it's close at least at first!! it's somewhat a drivers race.
look, you guys are not giving the 1.6L DOHC with the same variable valve timing (VTEC) 
type setup that the GA16DE has enough credit. the 200SX SE is not the slouch you guys think it is,
regardless of what SCC once said. Torque go's a long way on nailing the launch which in turn puts
you ahead of a race against an SI right there. I ALWAYS get the jump on those guys. and 1st and
2nd gear are pretty strong on the 200SX SE, enough to hold the SI at bay. after that, well...
Mr.SI is going to fly by.


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

I always felt like the point has been proven by the 3rd gear anyways. Especially when on the street. It's nice cause I stop racing while still in the lead. shift to 3rd and I'm done with it. they usually continue to mash it.

It's not necessary to continue, and wind up exceeding the speed limit, especially when you know your going to lose!!!


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

I can belive that... most Si owners launch way too low.


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

NICE! I feel better now yosho cause I see you actually have the experience to validate my posts (being that you own an SI) Nice little collection you have there!!


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

A good Si driver (they are out there) will reel you in by the top of 1st, and walk away in 2nd though............

But yes, I can see how you can hold them given the jump......sure GA16DE's are slower, but not THAT slow.

Still.......while many street races are over by 60-70mph, there are times where they go longer (depends on location), and that IS where a VTEC Si will walk away on an SE-R, let alone an SE.


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

I concur. agreed guys.

yeah, I would get stomped beyond my sweet spot (1st and some of 2nd)


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

blueboost said:


> *NICE! I feel better now yosho cause I see you actually have the experience to validate my posts (being that you own an SI) Nice little collection you have there!! *


Thanks! Yeah, the Si's a nice car. I'm probably going to sell it though so I have more money to spend on my two SE-Rs.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2003)

i dont know what state you guys are from, but i have beat everything from si's to type r's in my se-r. all i have is cai, exhaust, springs and headers. i ran 14.60s all day in my 200sx se-r. when it was bone stock i was running 15.50s allday, the si's around here run 15.60 to 15.80. so i think that it really depends on the driver. if it was up to me i would still go with the se-r, who doesnt have a si?


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

well, from what you're claiming, you're still wrong. even though you're above sea level and you're pulling faster times, as compared to people at or below sea level or what not, other cars would be pulling faster times, in comparison as well. 

the SI runs, on average somewhere around what you're saying, at sea level. and the SE-R (since it's heavier, runs in the low 16s), possibly high 15s. 

so, you mean to tell me, you ran a 15.5, STOCK, when professional drivers usually pull in high 15s to low 16s? i don't know, maybe they're doing something wrong, or maybe you need to replace those "professional" drivers, huh? 

now, you mean to tell me that once you put on bolt-ons (just CAI, headeR, not headers, and exhaust) your 1/4 time decreased by just about a FULL SECOND?!?!?!?!?! wow, those are some excellent mods you got there. 

i'd ask for timeslips, but that wouldn't prove a whole lot because i don't know at which point you were stock, at which point you were modded, and if the timeslips your provide are even YOURS.


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

Far be it for me to call BS on someone... but those results are at best, very non typical. I've never heard of someone being able to get a 15.50's on a stock SE-R let alone out of a stock B14 SE-R. 14.60's with only IHE? Like I said, very very unusual. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that you're the first person I've heard of that's been able to achive these numbers and that they shouldn't be considered a guide as to what is normal for an SE-R.

Stock car for stock car, the Si will win every time... throw the driver's ability into it however and Si's can (and do) loose.

Beating Type R's with only an IHE on an otherwise stock B14 SE-R? Again, very unusual.


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

the thing is is that the se-r responds to mods WAY better than hondas......a modded civic with I/H/E pulls about 148whp....lets not even mention torque numbers ......and an se-r with same mods.....and a lil bit more pulls 166whp.. besides theres hardly a time where a stock car races another stock car.....if they are ricers, chances are that the cars are modified in which case the se-r would be an underdog....all things considered


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

You know, I hear this all the time from fellow Nissan owners about how Honda's just don't respond like Nissans do to mods. Honestly, I don't think that's really true. They both respond to mods well.

Here's a good example... a stock Si will put down about 132whp. Throw an AEM on it, and it's up to about 143whp. Throw on a good Header and Exhaust and now your somewhere around the mid 150's. Say 155whp. 

I pulled this off clubsi as an example... 

http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_comptech_1.shtml

Now add cams (springs and retainers) and a V-FAC (or ECU) and you're up around the mid 170's. Say 175whp.

http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_cheap_bastard_2.shtml
http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_todasi_2.shtml


Now, with out getting into building a B18 or B20vtec I think you can see how much potential there is in building up a Honda... just as there is great potential in building up an SR20. There's a reason that Honda's B series engines are so popular to build up. The biggest drawback is price. I think it's pretty easy to say that the SR's are a better bang for the buck.


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

those pics didnt work btw,

Civic SI 
Mods: AEM Cold Air intake, DC Sports 4-2-1 header, Neuspeed 
8mm plug wires, and Mugen twin loop muffler.
Peak WHP: 148.1
Peak TQ: 103.9
(straight off the honda forums)

Mike Kojima's SCC Project 200SX SE-R (All Motor)
162 WHP and 146 TQ


need i say more?


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

Yeah, Clubsi won't let you link the pics directly... so I changed them to links instead.

First, I don't know anyone who's getting 166whp on an US SR20 with only IHE. If they did, those are some awsome numbers and I'd like to know how they did it so I can do it myself.  

As far as the dyno numbers you posted off Clubsi... I know, I saw those myself. All I can tell you is that back when I had my Si dyno'd back in 2k with only an AEM CAI done, it put down 143-144whp. Other than that it was stock. The DC Sports Header isn't one of the better headers out there for performance... it's one of the cheapest, and isn't a bad choice for the money, but it's not going to give you big gains. The Mugen exhaust is very nice, but no exhaust on a honda is going to give you big gains at this point... so since the header is still restrictive, the exhaust is just going to sound great, but not give you any real gains.

I really don't know what Mike K. has done to his SE-R... maybe if he see's this thread he could post a quick run down on what he's done so we can all benifit from his knowledge and experience (as if he hasn't given us all a lot already!).

Basically all I'm trying to say is that IMHO, to say that Honda's don't respond well to mods when it comes to the B Series engines is a myth. I think that saying is somewhat true when it comes to the D series engines... and that's probably where it started and has just continued to be repeated about the B series. Now, I think a better argument against the B series is that it's a lot cheaper to build up an SR. That's the real advantage Nissan has over Honda. You don't have to pay so much to play.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

well i saw the dyno graph that yosho put up and those numbers are correct about the si's wheel horse power. Now about your numbers on the sr20 with I/H/E i have a problem with that all motor setup lets do it this way it might be more fun.... ok the sr20 has 140hp to the crank in the b14 (b15 145 but i'll use a b14) now add intake lets say 10 more so that about 150hp (not whp) add on a header lets say 10 to 14 more so know we are at 164 crank and exhaust hmmm i'll say 15 for this part so now we are at 179hp at the crank. Now also take in mind how much you lose to the wheels i would say for I/H/E you got about 140-148whp. besides the sr20 dosen't have 140whp its about 120 to 125 i think. Now i have I/H on my SE-R but its not near 165 whp so i hope this settles the whole whp thing


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

sr20 805 said:


> *those pics didnt work btw,
> 
> Civic SI
> Mods: AEM Cold Air intake, DC Sports 4-2-1 header, Neuspeed
> ...


I can't remember off the top of my head how accurate the 162whp number is (it was close though.....NOW more like 176whp though), but that IS with headwork, cams and 11:1 compression......all high $$ items that most people will NOT do.

Most SE-R's with I/H/E get around 135-140whp. Add in cams and ECU, and 150whp is possible, but that's about the limit of bolt-ons......considering an Si can put down as much as 140whp stock, the SE-R is at a distinct disadvantage.


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## yu yevon (Nov 21, 2002)

*my special car*

I have an 93 E' sentra. I dont know if it makes a different if its a federal car or not. All i have to say is, Ive beatin a se-r in my sentra before. To tell u the truth i got lucky, he turned the tires alittle to hard. NO lie Ive beatin up integra's also. And that Si only beat me by and half of car. So i dont know whats up with my car.
The mods i have is a filter, timing 21/4 exuast with no cat, wires and plug, ive also honed out my trottlebody. so I guess my car is special


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

ccroaddog said:


> *well i saw the dyno graph that yosho put up and those numbers are correct about the si's wheel horse power. Now about your numbers on the sr20 with I/H/E i have a problem with that all motor setup lets do it this way it might be more fun.... ok the sr20 has 140hp to the crank in the b14 (b15 145 but i'll use a b14) now add intake lets say 10 more so that about 150hp (not whp) add on a header lets say 10 to 14 more so know we are at 164 crank and exhaust hmmm i'll say 15 for this part so now we are at 179hp at the crank. Now also take in mind how much you lose to the wheels i would say for I/H/E you got about 140-148whp. besides the sr20 dosen't have 140whp its about 120 to 125 i think. Now i have I/H on my SE-R but its not near 165 whp so i hope this settles the whole whp thing *


those numbers are way unrealistic......first of all, an sr20 puts about 117whp to the wheels(average)..now add a CAI, headers, and exhaust, you'd be putting around 136whp.....and a b15 sr20 also has 140whp(same engine)

oh, and you guys are forgetting a big thing here
TORQUE!


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

BIGBULS said:


> *considering an Si can put down as much as 140whp stock *


VERY RARELY, see...there isnt too much of a huge difference between them as far as hp goes(20)...but as far as torque goes.....the se-r has an advantage....plus the sr20 is lighter on its toes in some instances.....its a drivers race


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

Ok i am confused about what the hell your talking about SR20 805??? First you say that a SE-R with I/H/E would put down 166whp and now you say it would get 136whp.

first u said this "quote"
the thing is is that the se-r responds to mods WAY better than hondas......a modded civic with I/H/E pulls about 148whp....lets not even mention torque numbers ......and an se-r with same mods.....and a lil bit more pulls 166whp..  

then u said this "quote"
those numbers are way unrealistic......first of all, an sr20 puts about 117whp to the wheels(average)..now add a CAI, headers, and exhaust, you'd be putting around 136whp.....and a b15 sr20 also has 140whp(same engine) 

And the SE Sentra does have 145hp (same engine..but different) If you still dont believe me look at these
http://edmunds.com/used/2000/nissan...l?tid=edmunds.u.prices.leftsidenav..6.Nissan*
http://www.se-r.net/about/sentra_se/2000_sentra_se_stats.html


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

ccroaddog said:


> *Ok i am confused about what the hell your talking about SR20 805??? First you say that a SE-R with I/H/E would put down 166whp and now you say it would get 136whp.
> 
> first u said this "quote"
> the thing is is that the se-r responds to mods WAY better than hondas......a modded civic with I/H/E pulls about 148whp....lets not even mention torque numbers ......and an se-r with same mods.....and a lil bit more pulls 166whp..
> ...


in my first quote i said the se-r with same mods PLUS A LIL BIT MORE.....puts 166whp(Mike Kojimas).
On the second quote i said it puts about 136whp with only I/H/E


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

ccroaddog said:


> *And the SE Sentra does have 145hp (same engine..but different) *


ok.......must of been trippin then, i remember looking at edmunds a while back and checking the stats on the 2000se and i coulda sworn it said 140hp....oh well


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: my special car*



yu yevon said:


> *I have an 93 E' sentra. I dont know if it makes a different if its a federal car or not. All i have to say is, Ive beatin a se-r in my sentra before. To tell u the truth i got lucky, he turned the tires alittle to hard. NO lie Ive beatin up integra's also. And that Si only beat me by and half of car. So i dont know whats up with my car.
> The mods i have is a filter, timing 21/4 exuast with no cat, wires and plug, ive also honed out my trottlebody. so I guess my car is special *


Hey, an idiot driver can cause many a fast car to appear slow.....BUT, just remember that the reason you beat the SE-R was due to the driver......all things being equal, an SE-R IS faster (although E's are the fastest GA16's out there as they are the lightest).


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## SentraStyles (Dec 31, 2002)

I am just going to interject a small thought. I have raced SI's and one and have lost... blah blah blah i don't know who said it but Torque is a key factor here... you could have a 170HP and 100FT lbs of torque and you are still not going to be as fast as a car with 140HP and 138FT lbs of torque...

what I am getting at you can have all the hp in world but if you are making any torque it is going to take you forever to get there!!! But when it is all said and done I have raced a SI with equal mods to mine and still pulled away! this is on the freeway where his clutch and flywheel were considerably less usefull!


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

thanks 805 we are all clear now


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

well, there are gonna be many discussions about this in the future as to wether an sr20 can beat an si......this and that, and some people have come out saying that they have beaten si's with a ga16de......hehe....but we do have a weapon that can take down the Si...SPEC V baby. i've seen a spec v(with bad driver) get outlaunched by an si and the spec v still came back and whooped its ass....i saw it in person ALL races just come down to the driver


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

SentraStyles said:


> *I am just going to interject a small thought. I have raced SI's and one and have lost... blah blah blah i don't know who said it but Torque is a key factor here... you could have a 170HP and 100FT lbs of torque and you are still not going to be as fast as a car with 140HP and 138FT lbs of torque...
> 
> what I am getting at you can have all the hp in world but if you are making any torque it is going to take you forever to get there!!! But when it is all said and done I have raced a SI with equal mods to mine and still pulled away! this is on the freeway where his clutch and flywheel were considerably less usefull! *



Like I said, I own both and this is simply not true. In my honest experience (read... wanting the SE-R's to win because I like my Nissans more than Hondas) the Si is faster than the SE-R from the very start. If you launch both perfectly, the Si will win every time. It pulls from the very start. I'm not happy about this, it's not something I'm boasting about here. I'm just trying to be honest and give fellow SE-R owners honest information instead of "I raced so and so and walked him".


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

Having said all that... it's hard to launch any car perfectly, and as I've said... I personally feel the Si is harder to launch than the SE-R. As with any race, when it's close it's really a drivers race so I don't find it unrealistic that an SE-R can beat an Si... or a Civic EX can beat an Si for that matter. Depends on the driver.

BTW, as far as what a B series motor can do...

200whp is very doable. 

Here is a link of an Si "with a little more" than IHE. 
http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_joji_2.shtml

A cheaper route would be to go with a B20 block out of a CRV and build a B20 Vtec. This would give you the all wtq that you would need, which is supposedly the big disadvantage of the b-series engines.

Fully built B series engines (B18/B20) typically max out around the 220-240 whp range. I don't know of any SR20DE that comes close... so to say that b-series engines don't respond well to mods simply isn't true. That's why we're lucky that Nissan makes the VE. I don't know if they've gotten to the 220-240 whp range yet though.


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## rice rocket (soon) (Oct 28, 2002)

i think it's the driver that is "special" in yu yevons case


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

Yosho said:


> *Having said all that... it's hard to launch any car perfectly, and as I've said... I personally feel the Si is harder to launch than the SE-R. As with any race, when it's close it's really a drivers race so I don't find it unrealistic that an SE-R can beat an Si... or a Civic EX can beat an Si for that matter. Depends on the driver.
> 
> BTW, as far as what a B series motor can do...
> 
> ...


that car put down some good HP numbers, but DAMN.....WHERE'S THE TORQUE??! and i really think the spec v is more in the si's class......and the spec v can put down more that 200whp with time(as more parts become available)


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## antdagreat (Nov 24, 2002)

i saw this on another thread. the highest N/A sr20de is like 350whp. look in the highest hp thread in the sr20 section


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

True, there are race only versions of the SR20DE that make those crazy numbers... however, I wasn't talking about factory race engines that are rebuilt after every race and NEVER see a street in their lives.  Must be something to drive one though huh?


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

sr20 805 said:


> *that car put down some good HP numbers, but DAMN.....WHERE'S THE TORQUE??! and i really think the spec v is more in the si's class......and the spec v can put down more that 200whp with time(as more parts become available) *



How much torque do you want? If you want torque and a B-Series, build a B20vtec. I think the Spec V is a great car, and like you said... as parts become available, it should get interesting. The biggest disadvantage to having lower torque numbers is really in daily driveability... which is one of the reasons I enjoy driving my SE-R more than the Si. For all out performance though, it's not that big of a factor. Case in point, the Spec V should destroy a GSR in pretty much any type of race using this logic... it doesn't. They're pretty well matched. They both have similar hp #s, but very different torque numbers.


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## antdagreat (Nov 24, 2002)

vtec. i think that is the only reason that it would be close. without vtec honda would be a lost cause. i read somewhere else that if you drive your car right you can get with the vtec. just keep your car at higher rpms. or just get a sr20ve and piss evryone with an H on they're car off.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

but u have to admit i would not mind driving around one of those 300whp n/a cars around. all u see is a teal SE-R thats lowered and has exhaust. talking about a sleeper. I think Ve to vtec is the best comparison. the type r has 195hp and 130tq. And the SR16VE N1 - 197hp @ 7800rpm / 134lb torque @ 7600rpm is more power per liter but not as high as a redline


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## SeenSense (Jun 16, 2002)

Well Yosho...you were talking about B-series maxing out at 220-240 whp....Andreas Miko has a 200whp sr20de, and said it is possible to get more. Maybe 220whp+. Kojima also stated that 200+ whp is possible(I am not sure if he is working on it). That 166who was then this is now.


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

Oh, don't get me wrong... I'll take an SR20 over a b-series any day. I was just responding to the myth that Honda's don't respond well to mods is all.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

If u have ever taken a ride in a type r that has about 200whp and about a 9250 redline and not enjoy speak now or forever hold your peace. cause i have and it was so much differnt than my SE-R


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## crazy4myb14 (Jan 20, 2003)

i won against my first race against my best friend's 99 si with greddy headers, hp racing cai, magnecor wired, bosch platinum +4, and thermal exhaust with my 95 se-r with pr cai and 17 degree timing . second race he beat me . thrid race he didnt know i installed 91 intake cam and jwt ecu and courtesy exhaust and beat him 15.6 for me and 15.9 for him. i guess it depends on driving skills. if i had a header i think it would really be a good match. his vtec against my torque. hmmmmm. we'll see wassup spring time at the track when i bolt on some hotshot headers.

Ben


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## crazy4myb14 (Jan 20, 2003)

oh btw i drove his car and feels like there's no torque at all. vtec is awesome though! i love that sound when it kicks in. drove my friend's type r too! that thing is scary for an all motor!


Ben


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

you people put WAY too much emphasis on torque when comparing the SR20DE to any of the B-series engines.


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## crazy4myb14 (Jan 20, 2003)

i'm just comparing my advantages over the b16 engine. i dorve one and i'm not impressed. torque goes a long way.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

that is true that we always wanna show the better side to the nissans we drive which is the torque. the b18 did seem to lag untill u hit high rpm's. a guy my dad works with has a s2000 and says the same thing... off the line the gt mustang takes off but give it till second gear and he will fly right by. The only reason why torque is low on hondas is cause of how vtec works just look at nissan's VVL engines 185 hp and 146 torque in the 2.0 liter and 196hp and 132 torque in the 1.6. both cars haul ass


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

The proper way to launch a B16 puts you into vtec very quickly... so you don't notice the lack of torque. Like I've said, it's really only noticeable during daily driving.


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## esyip (Dec 19, 2002)

crazy4myb14 said:


> *i'm just comparing my advantages over the b16 engine. i dorve one and i'm not impressed. torque goes a long way. *


the SR20DE has a whole ~20ft. lbs over the B16. wow, that's such a huge advantage.


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

I quote sr20 805: "some people have come out saying that 
they have beaten si's with a ga16de......hehe...."

laugh if you want. come for a ride in my car and I'll show you.

If I was driving the SI I would've whipped my 200SX, but the guys that
are driving the SI's i've raced were not capable of beating me at least off the line
(poor driving skill)

I'm not saying that the 200SX SE is going to whip an SI, it's not under "normal" conditions, 
but the point I'm trying to make here is that the 1.6L DOHC with variable valve timing that
some of you guys don't even realize the GA16 has, plus the torque factor are enough to split
some SI wigs, at least through 1st and 2nd gear. You guys realize there is serious soul
inside those SR series engines, the GA's as well people!!!


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

blueboost said:


> *I quote sr20 805: "some people have come out saying that
> they have beaten si's with a ga16de......hehe...."
> 
> laugh if you want. come for a ride in my car and I'll show you.
> ...


the GA only has like 10 pounds of torque more than the si.....the si has 45 more hp.......... face it......10LBS of torque isnt gonna launch u better than an si.......it just doesnt..


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## BIGBULS (Sep 24, 2002)

But it depends on where the torque is made, and what kind of gearing it has to back it up. 

This is why Si's can match an SE-R out of the hole with a good driver, because while B16A's don't have much peak torque, they have a wider spread than does an SR20DE (plus a shorter 1st gear, and tighter axle ratio). Look at a dyno chart. And in a straight line, the LSD doesn't help much. Ga16DE's also have a nice *spread* of torque (and decent gearing), which is why they are so peppy out of the hole and through the first 2 gears.

Remember, peak torque doesn't matter much if your car can rev for days and has short enough gearing to cover for it (Formula 1 car anyone?).

Put it this way......Civic Si's have *slightly* taller tires than a B13 (lengthens gearing by around 3%).........the SAME size as B14's. BUT......they have a 4.40 axle ratio (vs 4.18 on an SE-R) and a 3.23 1st gear (vs a 3.06).....soooo......combine that with a wide spread of torque, and they need only as much, if not less wheelspin out of the hole to get a good launch without bogging, and then will pull slightly in VTEC...

Combine this with their superb gear spacing (the SE-R gearbox is also VERY well geared) and it becomes VERY hard to beat an Si stock vs stock.

Remember...torque and horsepower are mathematically linked, so you can't just say "yeah, well mine has more toque".......it's al about where the torque is made, and how it's supported (gears).

That's why the ideal engine makes lots of torque everywhere, and revs for days........BMW M3 anyone?


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

yes, but stock for stock, there is no way a ga16 can beat an si........it can a LIL better launch, i messed with some co worker of mine who has an si.....i have an auto ga16..we lined it up at the light....and since i have an auto, i powerbraked in first gear and he revved....so when the light turned green, i launched out the whole and was ahead for 1 second........then he came back, and took over....so i dont doubt a ga can pull outta the whole a lil better.


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

so your basically calling me a liar.

I am trying really hard not to flame you at this point Sr20 805

I quote you: "there is no way a ga16 can beat an si"

I never said I can BEAT an SI. 

as you can see bigbulls and yosho (who OWNS an SI) agree with my posts which state
only that I have pulled on SI's from a standstill or near standstill (rolling start).
I am no even going to try and say that I can whip one. bigbulls is right about the GA16 
having good power in 1st and 2nd gears they really do, it's pretty cool actually. and that is why
I can pull on SI's.

I am not some 15 yr old ricer bragging to impress you I have been on this forum for a while
and I believe my fellow forum bretheren can vouch that I don't talk smack.


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

i'm calling u a liar now???
at what point did i say "blueboost is a liar"??
second of all, i never said that u claimed to beat an si.........i agreed with u in saying that a ga16 can prolly pull on an Si, from the beginning...........read my posts again kid..i dont know why you think u wanna flame me....it should be u who i should flame........READ MY THREAD RIGHT!

and thats right i said theres no way a ga can beat an si stock vs stock....lets all admitt that..as much as i hate to....and thats all i said, i didnt say that an si will outlaunch a ga16....dont make assumptions about what i'm saying then come up here all mad "trying not to flame" me

if u read back on my thread and REALLY read it, u can see that i agree with u


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

ok how about a 2002 SE-R Spec-V with AEM CAI vs. a 2002 Acura RSX type X with a stock motor?


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## Yosho (Aug 11, 2002)

An Si will out launch and beat a GA16DE as well as a SR20DE (Sentra/200SX) everytime if all things are equal... however, having said that just because it CAN win doesn't mean it always does. The driver's ability, knowledge, and luck always play a big part in any race with similar cars.

I've actually been pretty impressed with the GA series engines when I've driven them in the past. I think SE-R owners who have never driven a GA powered car would actually be impressed. It's a quicker car than say... driving a Civic DX (a car I've also owned and loved).


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## blueboost (Jul 25, 2002)

man, I actually QUOTED what you said. I don't want to argue. If your cool with it then so am I. This is a tech forum I love being a mem\ber and I've never argued with anyone before and I'm not going to start now. Maybe I misunderstood what was said, maybe I didn't. I don't have the energy to pull apart the thread and try to psychoanalyze everything everyone said. It's cool brotha, you and I are cool in my book. anyone that posts as much as you gotta get a little love at least right? Plus you know cause you responded to the post but last night my car got broken into and those things make you realize what is important in life. You and I obviously love nissans and have strong opinions about them (I know I can be a Nissan Nazi!) we are on the same team. I was ready to take heat from that post of mine anyways, and I don't expect you to understand how my car launches if you've never drove it. (you have an auto, not the same + it's a sentra, not a 200) the reason I keep going into beating SI's is cause I swear I've played with a couple of them and was ASTONISHED that I can pull on one period, even if it was short lived.


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

i was just woundering what mods you have done to your SE Blueboost?


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

blueboost said:


> *It's cool brotha, you and I are cool in my book.*





blueboost said:


> * I know I can be a Nissan Nazi*


couldnt of said it better myself


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2003)

*yep*



ccroaddog said:


> *ok how about a 2002 SE-R Spec-V with AEM CAI vs. a 2002 Acura RSX type X with a stock motor? *


a specv can take a rsx type s, without the intake. the thing is that a specv will outlaunch, or if not outlaunch take take a rsx by second gear because of the torque, at the end of a quarter mile a rsx will be at its tail if not fender to fender. somewhere in the forums, there was a video, of a rsx type s w/intake, a stock specv, and a civic ex w/55 shot nos. the specv took both the civic just lost each time terribly, the rsx lost by only a short distance. the spec 2002 at least the one i have, has really short gears, so by second its torque is really up there, and help catch up, it can i fell actually pull while the car is in its vtec, but once that torque is out the rsx will start catching up.


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## SuperSentra4203 (Dec 17, 2002)

The fact that the SE-R and Si are an extremely close match has been well stated so far. As far as I know, the B16a is a newer motor, while the SR20DE has been around for a while. Take any equal year Civic vs SE-R, stock for stock, and the SE-R will take it. As far a Vtec, it can kiss my big rear. Vtec is only used to give a more aggressive cam profile for low end, but switches cam profiles for high rpm. The Vtec motors are more suited against Nissan's NEO motors. There would be no contest there. Remenber, Vtec adds a lot of stress on the top end while racing. the SR20's timing system adds very little. I'll only praise a Si when I see it's motor nearly as strong stock than a SR20. If you want to have a weak, rev happy motor that sounds like a pissed off swarm of bees, then you can keep it. Me and most people will take the beastly SR20. Anyway, screw all of the NA stuff, I'd turbo the SR20 and kick Si ass all the time.


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## 4Play (Oct 16, 2002)

I dont know how many of you guy ever driven an SI(Sad Investment) The Si I tested was one of my friend car he had CAI,headers,Greddy exhaust. The first gear was not too impressive but the rest of the gears felt good. That motor just love to live at red line. I belive both nissan motors and honda motors response very good to basic bolt on's....Only a few motors that honda makes are not too impressive when it comes to basic blot on's example the B18 Type-R motor and the S2000 motor. Those motors are so highly tune that the only way of getting more power from the motor in running nos and force induction. Of course motor build up is another option.....


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## ccroaddog (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: yep*



2k2wickedSpecV said:


> *a specv can take a rsx type s, without the intake. the thing is that a specv will outlaunch, or if not outlaunch take take a rsx by second gear because of the torque, at the end of a quarter mile a rsx will be at its tail if not fender to fender. somewhere in the forums, there was a video, of a rsx type s w/intake, a stock specv, and a civic ex w/55 shot nos. the specv took both the civic just lost each time terribly, the rsx lost by only a short distance. the spec 2002 at least the one i have, has really short gears, so by second its torque is really up there, and help catch up, it can i fell actually pull while the car is in its vtec, but once that torque is out the rsx will start catching up.
> *


The reason why i asked cause my friend has a 02 spec-v with the intake and a friend of a friend has the type -s and yes the spec did beat it by about half a car or more and the spec had a bad launch and had wheel hop like a motha f**ka.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2003)

jeje... yeah the 2002 has way to low of gear so u have to shift before u even catch up on the launch.. its easier to launch at low rev though..


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## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

2k2wickedSpecV said:


> *jeje... yeah the 2002 has way to low of gear so u have to shift before u even catch up on the launch.. its easier to launch at low rev though.. *


i hear ya'


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