# Holy brake fade Batman!



## zeno (Sep 17, 2002)

I took my car out for a spin today up in the hills outside of Fort Collins. I came down a really steep hill going about 60mph and slowly dropped down to 20mph for a sharp turn into a large flat straightaway (I also wanted to gun it in 2nd gear). I gunned it up ~100mph on the straightaway and then started to slow down for a stopsign. Well, brake fad hit me and the pedal turned to mush and the lovely smell of burning brakes came in the air. Luckly, I gave myself a huge amount of room to slow down so I didn't fly through the stop sign. Stopped the car along the side of the road, white smoke was coming out of the front wheel wells. I let the car cool down, checked the brake fluid level (it was full), and then drove home w/o any problems.

Anyhow, it sounds like fluid fade to me but I want everyone's opinion. Also, it seemed strange it happened because I was not driving the car very hard or that long (probably only ~15 min. in the hills). The hill was steep but I wasn't slamming on my brakes at any time. Also, the car had a tune-up ~5 months ago so the brake fluid should of been changed. Should I be concerned or was this just a freak occurance due to low quality fluid?


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

What makes you think the brake fluid was changed? The white smoke tells me you overheated the brake pads. Are they relatively new?


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## zeno (Sep 17, 2002)

I'm not sure about the pads, I only bought the car about 6 months ago. I got the 60K tune-up and I assumed they changed the brake fluids. Maybe I was wrong.....so the smoke is more of a pad problem? I know about the problem w/ new pads being slick for a while but 6 months later seems strange. Maybe the dealership has records.....


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

Look at the fluid color to see if it was changed recently. Clear "white", clear amber or clear blue are the colors I've seen for new fluid.

Street pads are formulated to work with low temperature; get them HOT and they'll smoke as binder vaporizes.


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## Myetball (Dec 15, 2002)

A couple of bad things can happen when your brakes get that hot. Under severe conditions, the surface of the rotor can actually become fluid, you end up with a mirror finish on the rotor that is none too good for braking. You need to have rotors turned to fix this.

Also, you can boil/burn your brake fluid. When the fluid overheats, it will could boil and cause what is known as vapor lock. A build up of gas in the brake lines that causes brake failure. Usually you will have a rock hard pedal and no braking power if you vapor lock. Burning the fluid will change it to a dark brown but you won't be able too tell unless you flush out the brake lines.

If you already had air in your lines, a moderate amount of temperature increase would cause that air to expand causing brake failure.

Recommendation: Bleed out your brake lines until all the air is gone and the fluid runs a nice light amber color. You can do this by yourself. Get some clear windshield washer hose and a 20oz. soda bottle. Pour about 1 1/2 inches of new fluid into the bottle. Put a wrench on the bleeder screw then attach the hose to the screw and put the other end in the bottle, make sure the end is submerged in the fluid. Loosen the bleeder and slowly pump the brakes until all air and dirty fluid is gone. Check the resevior level often and make sure it doesn't get too low. Also make sure the end of the hose stays in the fluid otherwise you will suck air back into the brake lines. When it looks good, tighten the screw and move on to the next caliper/cylinder.


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## dreadsword (Dec 2, 2002)

Next time you change your brake pads, make sure to bed them in too - street pads have a resin in which abrasive particles are suspended for braking. Heat them up enough, and the resin close to the surface turns liquid - with obvious negative consequences for braking. That same liquified brake material will burn - i.e.: white smoke. 

Bedding pads is a process of deliberately heating and cooling new pads such that the resin is set. Bedded pads won't fade as quick, won't liquify (as fast), and should last longer.

Notes: I may be off here - depends on the type of brake pad that you're using. If anyone knows better, please share.

Wait - found a more info, confirming my suspicions:
(from Kojima's Garage: http://www.sentra.net/tech/garage/brakes.php)

Green fade is a type of fade that manifests itself on brand new brake pads. Brake pads are usually made of different types of heat resistant materials bound together with a phenolic resin binder. These are thermosetting plastic resins with a high heat resistance. On a new brake pad, these resins will out-gas or cure when used hard on their first few heat cycles. The new pad can hydroplane on this layer of excreted gas. Green fade is dangerous because many people assume that new brakes are perfect and can be used hard right off the bat. Green fade typically will occur much earlier than normal fade so it can catch a driver that is used to a certain car’s characteristics unaware. Typically the onset of green fade is rather sudden, further increasing the danger factor. I was a victim of green fade once. The crew forgot to tell me that new brake pads were installed on the car and when I went out on the track, I was flying down the escape road at about the third corner! Some teams have a new pads warning sign that they place on the steering wheel to inform the drive to be careful on his first few laps.

Green fade can occur if you change the pads and drive on the street for a few hundred or even thousand miles, never braking hard, then suddenly start using the brakes hard. I think that this is the fade that many list member complain about on their own cars.

Ok, so here's Kojima's blurb on Bedding:
(same source)

The way to eliminate green fade is to properly bed or break in your pads before you have to use them hard. The trick is to get rid of the volatile elements of the binder resin without overheating or glazing the pad. If you have ever seen your brakes smoke? That smelly stuff is the volatile resins being cooked out of your pads. Bedded pads will not smoke very easily.

I do my bedding on the open road when there is little traffic. Drive at about 50-60 mph and apply the brakes, dragging them while giving the car gas to maintain the speed. Drag brakes for about 10 seconds and release. Drive for about 1 minute to allow the brakes to cool, then drag the brakes again for about 20 seconds. The brakes may begin to smoke, stink and you might feel a bit of green fade at this point but that is normal. Drive for another minute to cool things off again and drag the brakes for 30 seconds. You should defiantly be smelling the brakes now and feeling some green fade. Be careful at this point as now you will not be able to stop too well if you had to. Drive about two minutes and repeat the process. You might have to repeat this up to three times. You can tell when the pads are bedded when you don’t feel the onset of green fade any more. Be careful not to overdo the bedding process or you could glaze your brand new pads or even warp or crack your rotors.

Ok - hope that helps...


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

brake pads are probably not that great, they cant handle high temperature which makes them lose their stopping power


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2003)

The fluid has nothing to do with what you experienced. The temperature of the brake pads did...



zeno said:


> *I took my car out for a spin today up in the hills outside of Fort Collins. I came down a really steep hill going about 60mph and slowly dropped down to 20mph for a sharp turn into a large flat straightaway (I also wanted to gun it in 2nd gear). I gunned it up ~100mph on the straightaway and then started to slow down for a stopsign. Well, brake fad hit me and the pedal turned to mush and the lovely smell of burning brakes came in the air. Luckly, I gave myself a huge amount of room to slow down so I didn't fly through the stop sign. Stopped the car along the side of the road, white smoke was coming out of the front wheel wells. I let the car cool down, checked the brake fluid level (it was full), and then drove home w/o any problems.
> 
> Anyhow, it sounds like fluid fade to me but I want everyone's opinion. Also, it seemed strange it happened because I was not driving the car very hard or that long (probably only ~15 min. in the hills). The hill was steep but I wasn't slamming on my brakes at any time. Also, the car had a tune-up ~5 months ago so the brake fluid should of been changed. Should I be concerned or was this just a freak occurance due to low quality fluid? *


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## himilefrontier (Jan 21, 2003)

I don't think the fluid was changed as it has nothing to do with a normal tune up(but it may be included in a major service at the dealer).Second, what you experienced is normal for a car with stock brakes driven hard for more than a few minutes.I beat the crap out of my truck one night with relatively fresh pads on it, and had the pedal go to the floor ofter only 2-3 minutes of abusive stop and go.I let it cool, and like you, everything went back to normal(but I also killed the pads in 15k mi!).If you are going to drive it hard, you really need to upgrade the brakes-especially in hilly terrain.


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## Chris24L (Jun 22, 2006)

*2000 Maxima SE-brake problems*

Something is wrong with the brakes on my Maxima. Last night as I was driving home, I went over a set of railroad tracks and the rear passenger side rotor sounded like it was scrubbing really loudly, without me even touching the brakes. It kept doing it intensely until I pulled over and checked them. The rear brakes were so hot that smoke was coming from behind the wheels. I could also smell the brake bads burning really badly. I bled the brakes today and freed the brake pads up a little, but after driving it down the road for a little ways, the brakes were back to smoking again. Does anyone have any idea of what this could be and what would be needed to fix it?  Does it have anything to do with my emergency brake? I appreciate any suggestions or ideas! Thanks!


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## zachmccool (Mar 7, 2005)

had the same thing happen to me one weekend of "street racing" (yes, yes, i know i should not be talking about it on here) I repetaly (about 3 times) went over 70mph and slowed to 20mph or so. Then at 50mph i had to use the break very hard, to my surpize no breeks (this was almost a year after replacing the pads with OEM ones). You just simply over heated them, nothing more.


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