# Bending the B14 beam for better handling.



## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Just thought I would tell you all that I have made a jig and bent the beam on a couple B14's to get better handling but setting the rear toe to zero. The difference is dramatic. The car will rotate much better and be more predictable at the limit as well. You can read about the process on NPM and also in these threads, here,  
here,  
here.


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## AznVirus (May 8, 2002)

anyone know who can do this in So. Cal?


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november01/westend.shtml


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## rkeith (Jan 12, 2003)

Wouldnt it generally be a good idea to not bend anything Nissan didnt? If it wasnt meant to be bent Im a little wary ......That sounds like an accident waiting to happen....


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Read the article. It explains what is being done and why. The car need zero toe to allow it to handle properly in a autocross and a roadcourse. This car is my daily driver but I also use it as a track car.


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

rkeith said:


> *Wouldnt it generally be a good idea to not bend anything Nissan didnt? If it wasnt meant to be bent Im a little wary ......That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.... *


so by your logic why should we mess with suspension at all? i mean nissan didn't want to lower our cars with stiffer springs. They also didn't want to have us adjust the sway bars. They really didn't want us to use solid motor mounts. They didn't want us to have larger brakes either.

see my point?
O


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## Teknokid (Jun 1, 2002)

AznVirus said:


> *anyone know who can do this in So. Cal? *


If you live in the Southern California area, West End Alignment is the best chassis shop for both race and high performance street setups. Darin is very meticulous and careful in his work. We use him exclusively for all of our project car setups.
-NPM

Contact Information
Darin Nishimura
West End Alignment
18008 S. Vermont Ave
Gardena, Ca 90248
(310) 808-9233

[email protected]


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## superfro86 (May 15, 2002)

Know of a place in NC or very close that can do that?


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## holy200sx (Jan 8, 2003)

im sticking to suspension front/rear sway bars with energy suspension.. then strut bars.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

superfro86 said:


> *Know of a place in NC or very close that can do that? *


I live in Hampton VA not to far from NC. I can do it for you. At this time there are only two people (west end alignment+me) who do this procedure as it is described in the NPM article. 




holy200sx said:


> *im sticking to suspension front/rear sway bars with energy suspension.. then strut bars. *


That is fine. You should know that the Suspension Tech bars have some issues (especially with the front). Progress would be a much better choice if you haven't purchased them yet. Also, if you do any racing or Track events the car will handle much better with the toe set to zero in the back (no matter what bars you get). I am not some idiot who just decided to go bend stuff for the fun of it. The b14 has a lot of rear toe in and it causes excessive understeer. This is the one of the primary reasons the B13 is such a fun car to drive. It has adjustable rear toe. Most track B13's run a little toe out in the back. Read the links I provided. Did you notice that in the review he said he did 250 miles of track driving over the two day event. This quy has more track experiance then I would say 98% of the people on this forum. In my opinion this is one of the first mods someone with a B14 should make to help it handle better.


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## himilefrontier (Jan 21, 2003)

I don't know this for certain, but you may be able to have this done at a shop that aligns I beam front axles(like older Ford pickups). They need to be bent to set their alignment,so the procedures may be applicable to the B14 suspension.Just a thought.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Mike Kojima wrote this in his artilcle for NPM. Since no one seems to be able to click the link before commenting I have copied the majority of it here for you to read. 

*Although the 1995-1999 B14 Sentra and 200SX is basically a very good handling car, it is hampered from obtaining the best possible cornering prowess by a feature built into its rear suspension geometry by Nissan. The rear axle has about 1/4 of an inch toe-in designed into it. This was done to make the car understeer under hard cornering. Understeer means that at the limit of traction, the front wheels will slide well before the rear wheels. Although this is a safe way for a car to handle for an average or below average driver, excess understeer is frustrating to the experienced or competition driver. Understeer slows the car down in tight corners where a little oversteer is desired to help make the car rotate, with minimal scrubbing. This is the most critical in Autocross where most of the turns are very tight and in some slower turns on a road course. On a B14 the toe is not adjustable so the axle must be bent to adjust the toe. The B14 axle is pretty complicated, it has a U channel housing that contains a tubular torsion tube. A special fixture is needed to bend the axle properly without damaging the U channel or the torsion tube.Darin Nishimura of West End Alignment has developed a special fixture that can bend the entire axle without any damage. The fixture supports the U channel and torsion tube and bends both parts equally. It is essential that this method be used as simply bending the axle can damage or weaken it. We bent the axle on Project 200SX to set the rear toe from 1/4" toe-in to zero. This greatly reduced understeer, without causing excess oversteer. We highly recommend this inexpensive mod which is just about mandatory if you are a track racer or Autocrosser. {EDIT} For axle-bending Darin is probably the only one in the country with the proper fixtures do it safely. This bending method can greatly help the handling of the B15 Sentra (2000 to present) and the A32 and A33 Maxima (1995-1999 and 2000 to present).*

My method is similiar to Darin's. I also use a special fixture to insure that the U channel and the torsion tube are bent properly. You can't just take it to a shop that knows nothing about the unique and unussual design of the Nissan B14 rear suspension. You shouldn't bend it without making a jig to support the axle properly during the process. I have invested about 12 hours of time fine tuning the whole process before I bent the first axle. It's complicated and needs to be done right.


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## rkeith (Jan 12, 2003)

onyxeros said:


> *so by your logic why should we mess with suspension at all? i mean nissan didn't want to lower our cars with stiffer springs. They also didn't want to have us adjust the sway bars. They really didn't want us to use solid motor mounts. They didn't want us to have larger brakes either.
> 
> see my point?
> O *


I understand where youre coming from in saying what you did but thats wasnt my point. Im a big advocate of a properly reworked suspension. Especially on our gen. 200s. Im all for a great handling car with an upgraded suspension. I was hoping--and have been reassured--that noone would cut corners on their cars. I had never read the article on bending the bars so when I first read the post I pictured a poorly bent bar which would imply 'cheapskate ricer' (Im not calling anyone here a ricer, people). Cutting corners on your suspension and its geometry (i.e. Civics) is never a good thing. Im still sticking to the typical setup but after reading the article I understand what the original post meant. 
Besides, logic --and the b14--_begs_ to change my suspension!...


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## wickedsr20 (Aug 8, 2002)

The reason Nissan bent the beam in the first place was because they wanted to take some of the tail-happy attitude out of the B14's for consumer use. For an auto-x or road racing set-up, the zero rear toe would not only make the rear end more willing to rotate, but to make that rotation more predictable and to also make the overall handling characteristics of the car more predictable also.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

rkeith said:


> *Im all for a great handling car with an upgraded suspension. I was hoping--and have been reassured--that noone would cut corners on their cars. I had never read the article on bending the bars so when I first read the post I pictured a poorly bent bar which would imply 'cheapskate ricer' (Im not calling anyone here a ricer, people). Cutting corners on your suspension and its geometry (i.e. Civics) is never a good thing. Im still sticking to the typical setup but after reading the article I understand what the original post meant.
> Besides, logic --and the b14--begs to change my suspension!... *


You will never have a truly good handling car until you get this done. you can make your car better but It will always be compromised by the 1/4 inch of toe in. Trust me I have done practically everything to my car GC Camber Plates, 300/300 springs, Motivational struts, Stillen rear bar set full stiff, Strut Bars F+R, Extreme alignment settings, tire pressures optimized. My car still did not rotate or handle that great compared to a lesser-prepared b13. You seem to want to minimize the difference. You are just fooling yourself.


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## Guest (May 4, 2003)

98sr20ve, is it cool if I stop by in the summer? How long does it the process take? I'll be on a road trip, so I want to make it a quick thing.


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## SRV1 (Sep 29, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november01/westend.shtml *


Now in the pictures i see what is going on.

Question for the techs here. Why bend the beam? Why not use shims like i do in the rear axle flange? Why hasnt anyone done it this way instead of bending that bar?

 

James


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Death04 said:


> *98sr20ve, is it cool if I stop by in the summer? How long does it the process take? I'll be on a road trip, so I want to make it a quick thing. *


It takes a couple hours. I just did one for someone who was just passing thru. PM me to set it up at least a couple weeks in advance to insure I am going to be around.




SRV1 said:


> *Question for the techs here. Why bend the beam? Why not use shims like i do in the rear axle flange? Why hasnt anyone done it this way instead of bending that bar?
> 
> James *


Because the spindles are welded to the axle and they can not be shimmed.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Death04 said:


> *98sr20ve, is it cool if I stop by in the summer? How long does it the process take? I'll be on a road trip, so I want to make it a quick thing. *


It takes a couple hours. I just did one for someone who was just passing thru. PM me to set it up at least a couple weeks in advance to insure I am going to be around.




SRV1 said:


> *Question for the techs here. Why bend the beam? Why not use shims like i do in the rear axle flange? Why hasnt anyone done it this way instead of bending that bar?
> 
> James *


Because the spindles are welded to the axle and they can not be shimmed.


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

Hey 98sr20ve I want to grasp the full concept of this I went to the link and I saw the pics and they were a little dark but basically the axles are like this ( and the bending makes it like this | 

Is the Toe-In on the front also or just the rear? And if it is on the front how is that corrected?


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

The beam is straight until it gets bent, After that is has a slight bow shape. Remember we are only talking 1/4 inch.


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

Yeah I know it's only a 1/4" I was just trying to get a feel of where it starts and where its ending up. But this is just an issue with the rear not the front correct?


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## SRV1 (Sep 29, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *It takes a couple hours. I just did one for someone who was just passing thru. PM me to set it up at least a couple weeks in advance to insure I am going to be around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that sucks! Thanks for the info. Havent seen one is awhile so i kind of forgot.

James


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## Jay (Apr 29, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *
> 
> 
> That is fine. You should know that the Suspension Tech bars have some issues (especially with the front). Progress would be a much better choice if you haven't purchased them yet. *


Hey what do you mean some issues????? I have te S/T bars and i absolutely hate them, especially the front because they were a pain in the ass too install, they squeak like a duck in heat, and car feels worse than before but i dont really know how to describe it.


P.S. Im not sure how a duck in heat sounds like but its probably just as annoying as those damn bushings.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Rama said:


> *Yeah I know it's only a 1/4" I was just trying to get a feel of where it starts and where its ending up. But this is just an issue with the rear not the front correct? *


The front toe is fully adjustable. That is the only thing adjustable on our suspension.



Jay said:


> *Hey what do you mean some issues????? I have te S/T bars and i absolutely hate them, especially the front because they were a pain in the ass too install, they squeak like a duck in heat, and car feels worse than before but i dont really know how to describe it.
> *


The ST bars are poorly made. The front is never even and has been know to bind. It needs to be shimmed to get the ends even. You need to measure it on a flat surface and then stack some washers under the side that is higher. I know that on B13’s the bar is know to hit the frame or suspension arms or something. For a b14 you really don’t need anything but the oem front bar. Try to get one of those. Keep the rear st bar. It does help. You also need to grease the bushings.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Hey While we're on the suspension, I wanna ask you about recommendations for lower bars.

right now, I have Prokits on AGX shocks and front/rear STB's currently, but I plan to get a full coilover suspension later on (when I am done with the engine and some interior/exterior work).

I would like to do some auto-Xing and see how I like it and I will even want to do some track runs and stuff, but it's mostly a daily driver that I just want to have fun with.

I really want to have a nice setup on the road tho, I don't mind the harsh ride as long as I got nice seats, but I want some control. BTW, people have talked alot of smack about the prokits, but I swear to god, these things saved my life several times when I had to make some quick lane changes.

Anyway I want to upgrade to the Tien SS coilovers in the future (I helped install some for a friend and I really liked the system). I'm thinking maybe 350/300 or 375/325 for the spring rates. I will be keeping my upper STBs and I want to have you do the rear beam. Lastly, I'm not really sure what I should do for the lower bars/braces. I'm not even sure what is down there for stock (I don't remember seeing any type of bar running underneath the suspension). Seeing as how the S/T bars aren't very good. What do you guys recommend I do?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *You will never have a truly good handling car until you get this done. you can make your car better but It will always be compromised by the 1/4 inch of toe in. Trust me I have done practically everything to my car GC Camber Plates, 300/300 springs, Motivational struts, Stillen rear bar set full stiff, Strut Bars F+R, Extreme alignment settings, tire pressures optimized. My car still did not rotate or handle that great compared to a lesser-prepared b13. You seem to want to minimize the difference. You are just fooling yourself. *


This is absolutly correct, without bending the beam, a B14 will not rotate unless really weird and extream spring rates are used in the rear which throw the car off in other ways.

With a bent axle the B14 can be made to handle better than the B13 in all but low speed turns.

Mike


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

1997 GA16DE said:


> *I really want to have a nice setup on the road tho, I don't mind the harsh ride as long as I got nice seats, but I want some control. BTW, people have talked alot of smack about the prokits, but I swear to god, these things saved my life several times when I had to make some quick lane changes.
> *


I got to drive a 99 SE with H+R with AGX's, My car with GC Camber Caster plates, GC 300/300, F+R Strut Bars, Motivational/Koni struts, full urethane bushings. My car was far more comfortable. If you ride in a car with lowering springs and then get in a properly set up GC setup there will be a improvement in ride with the GC setup despite the stiffer springs.



1997 GA16DE said:


> *Anyway I want to upgrade to the Tien SS coilovers in the future (I helped install some for a friend and I really liked the system). I'm thinking maybe 350/300 or 375/325 for the spring rates. I will be keeping my upper STBs and I want to have you do the rear beam. Lastly, I'm not really sure what I should do for the lower bars/braces. I'm not even sure what is down there for stock (I don't remember seeing any type of bar running underneath the suspension). Seeing as how the S/T bars aren't very good. What do you guys recommend I do? *


Just get the basic setup with the springs from TEIN. They sell the kit with a 320'ish front and a 280ish rear. That is perfect with a bent beam. Only bars I can recommend are the Stillen rear bar and the Progress front and rear bars. The only lower brace available is made by scott shigspeed on this forum. Get that one.


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## Jay (Apr 29, 2002)

Yeah dont waste your money on the S/T bars, I'm probably gonna put back my OEM front bar this summer.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

How does this all affect treadware?
And how much does it run as far as cost since it isn't a normal thing for a mechanic to do, and you woudln't go to just any mechanic for this anyway?

Seth


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

Steve drove my car (the '99) and Steve you have to admit that it's not bad for the price. Steve has more in his suspension than i do in my whole car  a very very comfortable car.

Anyhooo a normal mechanic can't do it there are only two people that can pick a coast, east or west, and go find the guys

O


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

sethwas said:


> *How does this all affect treadware?
> And how much does it run as far as cost since it isn't a normal thing for a mechanic to do, and you woudln't go to just any mechanic for this anyway?
> 
> Seth *


I charge $100 to do the job. It does not effect treadwear. You do not want just anyone doing this to your car. It needs to be done properly and requires some costume items be fabricated.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

onyxeros said:


> *Steve drove my car (the '99) and Steve you have to admit that it's not bad for the price. Steve has more in his suspension than i do in my whole car  a very very comfortable car.
> 
> Anyhooo a normal mechanic can't do it there are only two people that can pick a coast, east or west, and go find the guys
> 
> O *


Your car was nice. It was pretty good in the corners thats for sure. How do you like the car now that you have driven it more.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Believe me guys this is a great modification..... If you live in the So Cal area head to Westend alignment and have Darrin align the front and do the rear beam modification... it will be the best money you've spent... 

The rotation is amazing compared to pre-bent axle... I was pretty amazed at difference...one of the reasons we had Mike write the article back then, we didn't think anyone would believe us....lol...by the way the article easier to access on the Project 200SX 1.6 Turbo page.

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november01/westend.shtml

That Green 200 looks familar......


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

myoung said:


> *Believe me guys this is a great modification..... If you live in the So Cal area head to Westend alignment and have Darrin align the front and do the rear beam modification... it will be the best money you've spent...
> 
> The rotation is amazing compared to pre-bent axle... I was pretty amazed at difference...one of the reasons we had Mike write the article back then, we didn't think anyone would believe us.... *


I agree 100%. I tried to get my beam bent by him but the miles involved and the cost would have been too great (3000miles). In the end I did it myself and have been trying to get the word out to other b14 owners. Tired of b13 owners kick sand in my face like a 98 lbs weakling.


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *Your car was nice. It was pretty good in the corners thats for sure. How do you like the car now that you have driven it more. *


Here is the thread where i share my impressions of it, I have nothing but praise for this mod.

http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22095

O


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## SRV1 (Sep 29, 2002)

myoung said:


> *Believe me guys this is a great modification..... If you live in the So Cal area head to Westend alignment and have Darrin align the front and do the rear beam modification... it will be the best money you've spent...
> 
> The rotation is amazing compared to pre-bent axle... I was pretty amazed at difference...one of the reasons we had Mike write the article back then, we didn't think anyone would believe us....lol...by the way the article easier to access on the Project 200SX 1.6 Turbo page.
> 
> ...


I was at the junkyard on Friday and there was a 95 200sx. I looked at the rear and it had 4 bolts for the axle where the backing plate of the drum bolted to. Somebody said the spindle was welded to the bar. If so, why did Nissan use 12mm bolts to hold a backing plate on the rear axle? I think it does come off, but i am not totally sure. I have worked on numerouse FWD cars and have yet to see the rear spindle welded on the axle. Can anyone show me pics?

I do believe this mod works wonders, just skeptic on the rear spindle.

James


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SRV1 said:


> *I was at the junkyard on Friday and there was a 95 200sx. I looked at the rear and it had 4 bolts for the axle where the backing plate of the drum bolted to. Somebody said the spindle was welded to the bar. If so, why did Nissan use 12mm bolts to hold a backing plate on the rear axle? I think it does come off, but i am not totally sure. I have worked on numerouse FWD cars and have yet to see the rear spindle welded on the axle. Can anyone show me pics?
> 
> I do believe this mod works wonders, just skeptic on the rear spindle.
> 
> James *


It is welded on, belive us.

Mike


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## nj1266 (May 14, 2002)

Just a point that I would like to add about bending the rear beam. Darin does not recommend bending the rear beam to ZERO toe for a road race car. For a road race car he recommends 1/16 toe-in. That will give the road race car high speed stability. My Cup car is extremely stable at high speeds. You need high speed stability when racing at Willow springs and California speedway. Our cup cars can hit 125 mph on the striaghts and the banks of the above tracks.

If you AutoX, then bend the rear beam to zero toe. That will allow the rear end to turn better. 

As for the ST bars on the front. They are not good. Here is what I did on my cup car. I used the B13 front bar. It is a 28 mm bar, solid, and fits perfectly. I am still using the rear ST bar. It is too thin, however. Soon I will custom make a 23-24 mm fixed rear bar from the same material of the ST bar.

I have a good feeling that, bending the rear beam, using the OEM B13 front bar, the 23-24 mm custom rear bar, AGXs, GC w/350 fr & 300 rear will give you an awsome street car and an occasional track slut.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

nj1266 said:


> *Just a point that I would like to add about bending the rear beam. Darin does not recommend bending the rear beam to ZERO toe for a road race car. For a road race car he recommends 1/16 toe-in. That will give the road race car high speed stability. My Cup car is extremely stable at high speeds. You need high speed stability when racing at Willow springs and California speedway. Our cup cars can hit 125 mph on the striaghts and the banks of the above tracks.
> 
> If you AutoX, then bend the rear beam to zero toe. That will allow the rear end to turn better.
> 
> ...


Good stuff, thanks for the info. I just got back from Beaver run. My setup was 300/300, Stillen rear bar set in the middle. ST front bar shimmed and washered plus a ton of other stuff. My beam is set to almost dead zero but just a thouch of toe in. I was hitting 115+ at Beaver Run (VE 185whp) I had zero instability issues at that speed. My car was unbeliavable in the corners. The ST bar up front with the even rates worked very well on this short tight track. I borrowed the bar so it cost me nothing to try it. I see the issues with the ackward endlink angles and I am considering several options. I liked the stiffer front bar on my car. It allowed me to run less front camber and still not roll over the front tires. I was able to run .5 degree's less camber. This gave me better traction going out of the corners under power. One thing that I have been learning thru this process is that there is more then one way "to skin a cat/car" Mike recommends a stiff front and rear bar, you do not. Some like it real loose, I like it just a tad less loose to give me confidence with my car at my skill level. I agree with your basic street setup but I would add the Stillen/Progress rear bar. Most people autocross and you need as much stiffness in back as posibble to help it rotate.
As far as Onyxeros have just a touch of toe out. That is using my toe plates which are nearly twice as long as the Longacre toe plates that most people use. That makes his 1/32nd even less.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *Good stuff, thanks for the info. I just got back from Beaver run. My setup was 300/300, Stillen rear bar set in the middle. ST front bar shimmed and washered plus a ton of other stuff. My beam is set to almost dead zero but just a thouch of toe in. I was hitting 115+ at Beaver Run (VE 185whp) I had zero instability issues at that speed. My car was unbeliavable in the corners. The ST bar up front with the even rates worked very well on this short tight track. I borrowed the bar so it cost me nothing to try it. I see the issues with the ackward endlink angles and I am considering several options. I liked the stiffer front bar on my car. It allowed me to run less front camber and still not roll over the front tires. I was able to run .5 degree's less camber. This gave me better traction going out of the corners under power. One thing that I have been learning thru this process is that there is more then one way "to skin a cat/car" Mike recommends a stiff front and rear bar, you do not. Some like it real loose, I like it just a tad less loose to give me confidence with my car at my skill level. I agree with your basic street setup but I would add the Stillen/Progress rear bar. Most people autocross and you need as much stiffness in back as posibble to help it rotate.
> As far as Onyxeros have just a touch of toe out. That is using my toe plates which are nearly twice as long as the Longacre toe plates that most people use. That makes his 1/32nd even less. *


Mine is at zero and I have a big bar and I still think it understeers too much, at least in the low speed turns. In high speed turns the car rules. Naji is faster than me though.

Mike


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

*Question*

So the beam is bent in the middle only? I always assumed it was bent slightly at each end. 

Might be setting up a date with you Steve


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

The beam bends into a slight bow shape. Its very minor to look at but a dramatic change in the driver experiance.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

Does anyone know what the stock toe-in translates to when measured in degrees? What would 1/4" or 1/8" be in degrees? The reason I'm asking is because a recent alignment on a Hunter showed that I have 0.48 degrees of total toe. I know that the Hunter is extremely accurate but there is some margin for error since the sensors simply clamp onto my rims. I mentioned this in another thread but got no reponse. 0.48 degrees (lets say 1/2 a degree for simplicity) seems like a lot less than 1/4" or even 1/8". I bought my 98 200SX used but highly doubt anyone here in Hawaii has the knowhow to bend the beam safely and accurately. Any thoughts, please? Thanks guys.


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## Raul (Sep 12, 2002)

Greg, I probably shouldn't answer because I don't claim to know what I am talking about. But several months ago, I was playing with the camber on my van and got into a discussion of angles, tangents, etc with my son (who, I must say knows his math and engineering). So he made up a little Excell table with formulas for me so I could put in lengths and angles and calculate the deflection. (Don't ask, I was just screwin' around) 

Reading it backwards, I see that a 0.5 degree deflection (or reading) results in a change of 0.11 inches at 13 inches (a number I was using at the time). So if your total toe-in is 0.5 degree, you have less than 0.05 inches (half of the 0.11) per wheel (less because I don't think it is 13 inches from the center of the hub to the outside of the tire).

So, to round off, you are at about zero toe. If I read the thread correctly, that is what the rear is set for. Without the bending under discussion.

Hope this helps.

Edit: If you want the real number, tell me tire diameter (outside)and I'll plug it in and give you the number (and don't ask me how it is calculated, 'cause he put the formula in the spreadsheet and I plug it in). All the calculus and trig majors out there know far better than I do. But I'll plug the number in if you wish. You may be happy enough knowing that you are darn near 0.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

Thanks for your post, Raul
I don't know why I didn't mention my wheel and tire size, since I know that it would be needed for the calculations.... I'm curious to know what your spreadsheet would indicate for my rim/tire sizes. Anyway, I don't need exact measurements so I'll just calculate it out. 

I have 17" rims (roughly 432mm, so radius of 216mm) and 205/45 tires (205*0.4 = 82mm per sidewall). Could you let me know what the numbers show for: 0.25 degrees toe at 298mm (or around 11.75 inches) from center? These numbers are all rounded up slightly to allow for some error on the alignment numbers given to me. 

I appreciate your help. This would give me some base numbers to think about. I really don't think the former owner of my car had the beam bent, but it's very nice to know a Hunter machine shows that I have very little toe on my rear tires.

I don't suppose you'd be able to send me a copy of the spreadsheet via email? If not, that's cool. It sounds like a good tool to have, though. Thanks again.


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## Raul (Sep 12, 2002)

My handy dandy table says that an angle of 0.25 degrees results in a deflection of 0.051269372 inches at a distance of 11.75 inches (just messing with you, that's the value the computer calculates). That's close to zero. That machine is pretty accurate; I'll bet that is within the "close enough" specs.

I looked at the formula he inserted: Radius X Tangent (Angle X Pi divided by 180). He's got a couple of extra () in there, but if you remove them it screws things up, I think it is an Excell issue. I don't do Excell either. As I've indicated, I don't do tangents, cotangents, sines, cosines, etc. Hell, I hardly did them in high school -- but my son is good at them (3rd yr Mech Engr major at UVA). Go figure.

I will send you the table and you can mess with it all you want -- but I need guidance on how to do it (remember I'm old and I'm not into the computer things you young'uns are). I did not see a way to attach a document on an e-mail. Or if you have a calculator that does tangents, you may be able to do it.

Or, if someone tells me how to attach a spread sheet to a post on this site I can do that too.

For those that know this stuff, this stuff is simple (I'm told). Not fer me!

Anyway, good luck.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

What you really need to know is when someone says "the car has 1/4 inch of toe" what distance that is measured at. That distance ultimately determines how big of a number you have. There must be some standard distance that everyone who uses inch's rather then degrees is reffering to. In the end it is all acedemic. EVERY B14 has a ton of rear toe built into the rear axle.

I just noticed in my FSM that it says 3-5mm of toe in= .12-.20 inches= .18-.30 degree. So your .25 is about the maximum that the car comes with. Just as I suspected. I have measured every B14 that has entered my garage and they all have way to much.


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## Raul (Sep 12, 2002)

I always thought that when you measure toe (as a distance), you always do it from the front edge (tread) of the tire. So while degrees may remain the same, the toe would increase with bigger tires (unless, of course, you have 0.00 degrees).

I have been misreading this thread. I had thought that zero toe was spec; and the intent of this bending was to add some toe-in. Now I see that a little toe-in is the spec and the intent of this bending is to GET TO ZERO. (Place dope slap here; hey that's what we need in the little smilies section, a dope slap)

So maybe what I was considering as close enough to zero to be zero is not really close -- looks like a little toe-in goes a long way. Looked close to me!


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## Guest (May 15, 2003)

98sr20ve said:


> * EVERY B14 has a ton of rear toe built into the rear axle.
> Just as I suspected. I have measured every B14 that has entered my garage and they all have way to much. *


 try 7/16" total rear toe on mine 

Ric


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

There are two beam bending get togethers planed. One in West Virginia and the other in Florida. Here are the links if you want to attend and have your beam bent.

http://www.sr20deforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=379106#post379106

http://www.sr20deforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45060


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Florida? You've got my attention. I'll definately be interested b/c I live in Orlando most of the year.


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## meghant (Mar 11, 2004)

*mileage*

I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of gas mileage a '94 sentra would get on the free way


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

meghant said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of gas mileage a '94 sentra would get on the free way


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Well, good job for bumping up a 10-month old discussion about the 95-99 rear axle, to ask about mileage on your 94 sentra.

:newbie: of the month


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

1997 GA16DE said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Well, good job for bumping up a 10-month old discussion about the 95-99 rear axle, to ask about mileage on your 94 sentra.
> 
> :newbie: of the month


How about nicely telling him to do a search instead of making fun of the poor noob.

Mike


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

it's more fun this way


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

1997 GA16DE said:


> it's more fun this way


Poor N00B.

Mike


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

what the.. you want to know waht kinda gas mileage you should get in florida?...

well, you posted this completly in the wrong section... hell, a 10 month old thread.. i dont know how the hell..

anyways


32/38-40


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

meghant said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of gas mileage a '94 sentra would get on the free way


First off welcome to the forum. Secondly if you want good answers to your questions please post them in the appropriate forums. If you need help send me or a Moderator a PM and we'd give you some insight. Also, reading the sticky threads and forum rules will answer most of your questions. 

This thread has been useful in the past and could be useful in the future if someone searche's. Lets keep it rolling.


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## IanH (Feb 11, 2003)

98sr20ve said:


> There are two beam bending get togethers planed. One in West Virginia and the other in Florida. Here are the links if you want to attend and have your beam bent.
> 
> http://www.sr20deforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=379106#post379106
> 
> http://www.sr20deforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45060


98sr20ve

All the old links are dead.
Are there any active ones? I cant find any.

Are you still doing this ?

Since you are a long way away would you share your drawings so we can have some jigs made here in Dallas.

Thanks Ian.


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## DnK (Oct 27, 2008)

*Beam Bending not an option?*

Sounds cool, but I'm guessing this won't work on my JDM AWD B14 Sunny Super Saloon. Can anyone confirm that for me?


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## IanH (Feb 11, 2003)

This thread is old and the originator isnt answering.
We don't have the AWD B14 here in USA so unless some of our NZ or Aussie member know i doubt if you will get an answer.
If you get a 4 wheel alignment done then see what your rear toe is, if its OK you don't need this. compare to the number published. make sure you get a print out of the numbers when you get the alignment done. 
Ask them if the rear toe is adjustable.

Do you have a beam or IRS ?
If you have a beam then yes it would work if you find someone to do it who wont crush the beam.
If you have IRS it might be adjustable and it's just a case of getting it aligned to your special requirements.


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## DnK (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks. I'll check it out. I'll have to see if I can find a AWD service manual on ebay UK. I guess the US version ain't gonna' cover it either.


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## IanH (Feb 11, 2003)

Is this an Almera ?
you might find the FSM for free on Phatg20.net, its worth checking.


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## IanH (Feb 11, 2003)

Are you in the UK ?
I didnt know there was a AWD version of the B14, we had a earlier version around 1988 - 89 that was 4WD.
My Sunny was a Super Saloon, N16, no 4WD drive offered in Singapore though.
Pretty much the same as the B15 in the USA except the wheel was on the Right side !!! Pun intended.


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## DnK (Oct 27, 2008)

No I'm in Japan. I don't read Japanese, so I have to get a US or UK service manual and the US manual definitely won't cover the AWD version. I [ock u[ the car today.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

No need to download the FSM to see if it has a beam. Look under the car! If there is a solid beam that connects both hubs together then it can be bent. If it does not then this mod does not apply to your car. You can probably adjust the toe in the rear if it does not have a beam anyway....


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## DnK (Oct 27, 2008)

True and that's what I'll do. I'd still like to have a Service Manual more other work.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

There is an AWD B14 out there???


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## IanH (Feb 11, 2003)

DnK said:


> No I'm in Japan. I don't read Japanese, so I have to get a US or UK service manual and the US manual definitely won't cover the AWD version. I [ock u[ the car today.


What did you find ?
We are all interested in what model B14 you have??


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