# Sound Dampening



## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

HI,

It is amazing that there is no forums on te Internet that I can find that talk about Sound Dampening and the materials to use/purchase. I have been to many but they are not complete.

I just purchased an X-Trail LE AWD VDC (now on a boat as we speak) that will arrive in a few weeks and for the past several months researched and purchased Sound Dampening material to do the whole X-TRAIL. 

I would like this forum to talk about users experience in purchasing, what they purchased to name a few...

Second Skin Audio - Damplifier
Dynamat
FatMat
Brown Bread
PermaPlate

So that we can share this with everyone who is thinking about having these installed in thier cars. 

Discussions should talk about installation issues, quality of products, time to install, pro's and con's. Also how much you purchased to do your car/suv/truck.

Many of the Forums on the Internet do not have a full blown discussion on this and I had to ask many questions before I decided on what product to purchase, etc.

If we can help with all your input into this subject, this would be a valuable resource for many who are in the same situation and have no where to find this.

Several questions need to be addressed;

Is dampening necessary?
How easy is it to install?
How expensive is it?
What should I purchase and why?
Does it last or does it fall off?
Are there tricks to install the material?
How good is liquid Dampening?
Is one brand better than the other?
Does this void a New Car warranty?
Would this be a great think to apply to a New/Old car?
Where should I apply it? Doors only, Ceiling, Wheel well, trunk?

I hope this Topic will attract many of us who will be able to help others and I am looking forward to your valuable input.

Stephen


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

Is dampening necessary?
definitely

How easy is it to install?
very easy, just time consuming

How expensive is it?
at first glance it looks very expensive, but when you're putting it on the doors it's worth its weight in gold. $50 of deadening on your doors will easily make $200 speakers sound like $400 speakers

What should I purchase and why?
any generic mat will work fine, as long as it sticks, it weighs a lot, and it doesn't give you cancer, it will work just as well as any other

Does it last or does it fall off?
anything respectable will last as long as your car

Are there tricks to install the material?
clean the surface well, take your time, wear gloves (freshly cut aluminum backing can be sharp), get a very beefy roller (I use the wooden ones for laminate flooring)

How good is liquid Dampening?
supposedly it's just as easy as the mat and it's around the same price, but it's easier to install

Is one brand better than the other?
see a couple questions up, when it comes to mass loading (which is what all of the mats out there are), weight is weight. As long as it sticks well and doesn't give off toxic fumes it's perfectly fine.

Does this void a New Car warranty?
I don't see how it would....cars come with deadening from the factory, so what's the harm in putting more on?

Would this be a great thing to apply to a New/Old car?
yes

Where should I apply it? Doors only, Ceiling, Wheel well, trunk?
anywhere you want, I have it in all 4 doors, ceiling, floor, trunk and trunk lid. The best areas by far were the front doors and under the rear seat. The ceiling actually increased road noise, since the exhaust note tends to stay in the cabin better and resonate around, it did increase bass and decrease wind/rain noise though. The trunk lid was great for keeping it silent too, my car can hit 140dB whenever I want and you never hear a peep from the trunk lid.



As for the brands:

Second Skin Audio
Very good product, I have the STFU-80 (80 mils thick, it's an older model) and it's very good. Very heavy, very easy to work with, it sticks amazingly well, and there's no odor. Yes it's expensive, but yes it's worth every penny

Dynamat
Overpriced IMO. Like I said before, when it comes to mass loading all you care about is how well it sticks and how much it weighs. Dynamat doesn't weigh any more than the competitors and it costs SO much more. In fact I've seen independant tests showing that it didn't even meet its rated specs for heat tolerance or adhereance (is that even a word?). They built up a reputation through advertising and now they're just going along for the ride, much like everything else that's sold at best buy/circuit city.

FatMat
Worthless trash. I have 100sqft in my car and if I could take it back I would. It smells (only for the first week or so), it doesn't stick well (after 2 months pieces started falling off of my trunk lid), it doesn't weigh much, and they absolutely suck at shipping out promptly. It took me a month to get my order, and from what I hear on all the other forums this is a usual thing, in fact I've never heard of anyone getting their order in a reasonable amount of time.

Brown Bread
Never used it, but from what I hear it's very good

PermaPlate
Never heard of it

Rammat (sp?)
Very good from what I hear, great customer service, etc. Another viable option


On the sentras it takes about 4-5sqft per layer on the doors, I recommend at least one layer on the outter door skin, and at least 2 layers on the inner door panel (the metal panel that the speaker actually mounts to, not the plastic pretty piece that covers it). Make sure when you do the inner panel that you seal every hole you can and you deaden the entire panel fully. Just one large sheet over the entire door is a good idea (for each layer, of course you need to do multiple ones), make sure you leave room for the door handle and door lock bars though, if you mat right over them you'll never be able to open your door because the rods will be held in place. Here is a pic of my door, I have a layer of fatmat on the door skin and the door panel, and another 2 layers of STFU-80 on the door panel, so around 250 mils of deadening per door.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

Great start to the Topic... and with pictures! When I get my X-Trail I will also take pictures and post them of the install.

I have a question for you. You said to apply a layer to the outer shell how did you get in through the speaker layer (inner Shell to be able to apply it to the outer shell? This must have been the hardest part to apply given that the openings to access this are small! Also how long did it take to apply this to your car?

After researching the web... I also purchased Second Skin Audio, their new Damplifier (61 Mil thick) I am starting with 100 square feet and if I need more will pruchase it. I was recommened this amount from them and went with it.

My reason for Second Skin Audio Damplifier was the positive feedbacks I heard from the other forums (not many) members. I was also impressed with the pre sales service that i received. I had spoken to many of the companies that are mentioned and none came close to Anthony at Second Skin Audio for pre sales service.

When I received the 35 LBS shipment.... yes it is heavy.. I opened it up and saw the quality of the product and was impressed with it. When I finally install it (3-4 weeks from now) I will follow up.

Stephen


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

"I have a question for you. You said to apply a layer to the outer shell how did you get in through the speaker layer (inner Shell to be able to apply it to the outer shell? This must have been the hardest part to apply given that the openings to access this are small! Also how long did it take to apply this to your car?"

You're very right, that was easily the hardest part of the install for the exact reason you listed. I ended up just cutting the mat into ~6" wide strips that were the length of the door, folding them in half lengthwise (sticky side out obviously) and carefully working them through the openings in the door panel. One arm in the hole on the backside of the door, one arm in the speaker hole....it must have been interesting to watch, but it worked.

I also can't emphasize how important it is to get a quality roller....The one that was included with the Fatmat was plastic and crap. It broke halfway through the trunk (that was the first part I did) and I was stuck using my hands for the other ~80sqft. When I was done it looked like I had stuck my hands in a paper shredder, there were points (many of them actually) that I would start bleeding so badly that I would have to stop the install, wait a couple minutes for the bleeding to stop and for it to clot up, and then I could start working again. I suppose it would be easier if you were doing in a garage where you could go inside and wash off, but I was doing it in the parking garage on the school campus at least a mile away from my dorm.

All in all it took maybe 30 hours total, that includes taking seats and carpetting out of the car, reinstalling it, etc. I'm just really going off of memory here so I'm probably wrong, but it took an entire Saturday (10am to 9pm with a 1hr lunch break) to do the trunk and doors, then another 7-8 hours to do the ceiling and floor, and then another 4-5 hours to do the doors again (when I went back a couple months later with the secondskin). It's a very very long process, but it's worth it. The longest part really was just getting started. I don't even know how long I sat there looking at the trunk, looking at the deadening, looking back at the trunk, taking the backing off the deadening, looking at the trunk, holding the deadening sideways and cocking my head, looking back at the trunk, etc. Once you get started it moves pretty smoothly though.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*Application Tools*

I can only imagine what your hands and arms looked like (any pictures? LOL just kidding)..

You mentioned applying the material with a roller, plus your hands... did you preheat the material to make it more flexable and/or to stick better to the metal?

Since the material, in my case Damplifier is sold in large sheets, you mentioned that for he outer shell, you cut it into strips, do you recommend this for easy handling for everywhere else?

I have seen that some people cover only the metal parts but leave the holes in the inners shell open.. in you picture this is not the case and I would also cover the complete door as well... you want complete coverage correct?

Also a recommendation I have read is to make sure that you clean all the metal before applying the material to remove oil, etc... what did you do and or use for this?

Stephen


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

"I can only imagine what your hands and arms looked like (any pictures? LOL just kidding).."
Hehe, no. They were mangled though, it took a full week before I could hold a pen and write again 

"You mentioned applying the material with a roller, plus your hands... did you preheat the material to make it more flexable and/or to stick better to the metal?"
No, with the Fatmat I really should have though. With the SS there's absolutely no need, the adhesive is not tar based like other mats. This means you don't have to heat it to make it flexible, it doesn't smell, and it doesn't gum up your knife like other mats do. This is one of the main reasons I recommend SS to everyone.

"Since the material, in my case Damplifier is sold in large sheets, you mentioned that for he outer shell, you cut it into strips, do you recommend this for easy handling for everywhere else?"
Doing this definitely makes it easier for doing the inside of the doors, but it's not really needed everywhere else. Actually I take that back, it was helpful in the trunk, since I have the spare tire well back there, there's no way a single sheet would be able to cover everything, since half of it would have to go twice as far (down into the well) and it just wouldn't work. For the floor, ceiling, and the door panel though there's no need to do strips. You can do it if you want though, there's no harm in it at all (except for the door panel, since you want to seal it off completely it would be a pain with a bunch of little 6" wide strips).

"I have seen that some people cover only the metal parts but leave the holes in the inners shell open.. in you picture this is not the case and I would also cover the complete door as well... you want complete coverage correct?"
There's 2 reasons to deaden the door panel:
1 - Add mass to the panel to reduce vibrations, keep it from resonating, vibrating, rattling, etc
2 - Create a proper baffle for the speaker, with the rear waves completely isolated from the front.

If you just deaden the metal and leave all the holes, you're only doing the 1st of those 2. It will reduce rattles, but it really won't improve your speaker's efficiency or midbass at all. The best way is to completely seal off all the holes, to give your speaker a true infinite baffle "enclosure". If you do this the speaker will get louder at lower volumes, and the midbass will be MUCH better since you don't have the wave coming off the rear of the speaker reflecting off the door skin, coming out front, and cancelling out the wave coming off the front of the speaker.

"Also a recommendation I have read is to make sure that you clean all the metal before applying the material to remove oil, etc... what did you do and or use for this?"
This is a good idea, especially on the inside of the door where you have a bunch of grease everywhere. I should have completely cleaned it at least some kind of soap or solvent, but I didn't. I basically just used a wet rag, wiped it all down, dried it off and went from there.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*Layers of dampening material*

Another question is why put 1 layer vs 2 or 3 layers. Is there a difference that one can hear? Many times cost is a factor and for most one layer is enough.

I have also seen that there are different materials for engine hoods as well as flooring. 

When you did your ceiling (roof) did you notice any sag or the ability to stick, given the heat that is generated by the sun? These products add additional weight to the car and I am wondering about the roof and it's ability to hold this.

Stephen


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

"Another question is why put 1 layer vs 2 or 3 layers. Is there a difference that one can hear? Many times cost is a factor and for most one layer is enough."
Yes, I noticed a huge difference going from no deadening to 1 layer on the door skin and 1 layer on the door panel, then I noticed at least as large of a difference when I added the 2 layers of STFU-80 on each door panel on top of what I already had.

"When you did your ceiling (roof) did you notice any sag or the ability to stick, given the heat that is generated by the sun? These products add additional weight to the car and I am wondering about the roof and it's ability to hold this."
Nope, it stuck perfectly fine, just like when I did the trunk lid. I haven't taken the lining off to see if it's all still up there and sticking well though....maybe I should considering it was fatmat I put up there and it's not the greatest. The secondskin should be fine though, I believe it holds its adhesiveness up to like 300 degrees, and if your roof ever hits 300 degrees you have more important things to worry about than your deadening falling off.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*Melted car*

Great line...... I was just concerned that heat/cold would have an effect on the stickyness (is that a word) LOL .

Something else that was mentioned on various sites is that the dampening material used, if it has a foil back (I guess some do not) that it is an added benifit of insualtion for both keeping the warmth in and summer for keeping the car cooler... have you noticed this as well?

Stephen



"When you did your ceiling (roof) did you notice any sag or the ability to stick, given the heat that is generated by the sun? These products add additional weight to the car and I am wondering about the roof and it's ability to hold this."
Nope, it stuck perfectly fine, just like when I did the trunk lid. I haven't taken the lining off to see if it's all still up there and sticking well though....maybe I should considering it was fatmat I put up there and it's not the greatest. The secondskin should be fine though, I believe it holds its adhesiveness up to like 300 degrees, and if your roof ever hits 300 degrees you have more important things to worry about than your deadening falling off. [/QUOTE]


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

"Something else that was mentioned on various sites is that the dampening material used, if it has a foil back (I guess some do not) that it is an added benifit of insualtion for both keeping the warmth in and summer for keeping the car cooler... have you noticed this as well?"

I've never heard that, and I haven't really noticed any change in my car *shrug*


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## Jasper (Apr 2, 2004)

you forgot B-QUIET (same maker as BrownBread, but brown bread is twice the money) ... 100sq. ft is ~35 lbs ...if thats a good measure of weight lol)

B-QUIET Extreme ( www.b-quiet.com ) ... cheap too....$100+$25/$50 shipping on ebay, for 100sq feet (doing the whole car, you'll definately need at least 3 rolls (100sq feet is 2 rolls)....if you double layer the trunk, you'll definately use the better part of 4 rolls.

i'll prob be using the SecondSkin for the second layer on my doors and the trunk/trunk lid though, i've heard nothing but rave reviews of it. besides, i need to re-do the passenger side speaker spacer anyways (i kind of f*cked up... mounted it off center, i've gotta drill new holes in the door skin to mount it)

oh yeah, adam, you wanted to know

DynaXorb's really do make a difference. even at VERY high volumes, i get little or no distortion from my midranges now. the mousepad wanna-be's really do (pretty much totally) eliminate the backwave from the midrange. now all i need to do is get a new midrange amp (the alpines' starting to bug me, its not bad, but its not as good as i want :/)...and once i get my zapco/JL e2150 and my my front stage bi-amped, i *should* be damn near set for life.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

oh yeah, b-quiet is good too

"DynaXorb's really do make a difference. even at VERY high volumes, i get little or no distortion from my midranges now. the mousepad wanna-be's really do (pretty much totally) eliminate the backwave from the midrange. now all i need to do is get a new midrange amp (the alpines' starting to bug me, its not bad, but its not as good as i want :/)...and once i get my zapco/JL e2150 and my my front stage bi-amped, i *should* be damn near set for life."

nice, I don't really have a problem with clarity or distortion at any volume I can handle, but they sound like a solid product. How much?


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## Jasper (Apr 2, 2004)

sr20dem0n said:


> oh yeah, b-quiet is good too
> 
> "DynaXorb's really do make a difference. even at VERY high volumes, i get little or no distortion from my midranges now. the mousepad wanna-be's really do (pretty much totally) eliminate the backwave from the midrange. now all i need to do is get a new midrange amp (the alpines' starting to bug me, its not bad, but its not as good as i want :/)...and once i get my zapco/JL e2150 and my my front stage bi-amped, i *should* be damn near set for life."
> 
> nice, I don't really have a problem with clarity or distortion at any volume I can handle, but they sound like a solid product. How much?


i paid $25 for the pair. lol might seem like alot for just those, but when i had just dropped $550 on a few other things, it didnt seem like much


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*X-Trail Second Skin Audio Install pictures*

Here is my images for my install which is applied to all my doors as well as many other areas in my X-Trail. For the doors I applied two layers.. one on the inside outer panel and the second on the inside inner panel.

Stephen


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

You should put more in the inside panel, and seal up those holes. The main reason you deaden the doors is to seal up those holes to create a proper baffle for the mids, deadening without sealing the holes is barely even worth the effort.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*Follow up*

SR... Thanks for the comments.... I had no help in this first install but if I may ask you do I just take one sheet and apply it over the hole and leave the rubber/sticky part exposed? OR do I take one sheet and apply it from the inside as best as I could facing out then apply another from the front on top? Any help that uou can provide would be appreciated.

Stephen


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

Either way works, you want as much matting material covering those holes as you can (the more material you have, the less flexible it is, so the less it will transmit sound). Having the sticky part exposed on the inside of the door isn't a problem and it's easier than trying to apply a sheet on the inside of the door facing backwards, so it's what most people do.


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

Just want to inject this, edead seems to be well liked (elemental designs) and it is around $1/foot on ebay.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*Thank you*

SR! Thank you... This weekend coming up I will take apart my doors and cover those holes as you mentioned, it does make sense to do this, but when you don't have someone to tell you!!! LOL... at least I have most of it finished... The hatch is done as is the bottom of the floor.... there is always room for improvement and thank you for your suggestion... I will let you know how it works out!

Stephen





sr20dem0n said:


> Either way works, you want as much matting material covering those holes as you can (the more material you have, the less flexible it is, so the less it will transmit sound). Having the sticky part exposed on the inside of the door isn't a problem and it's easier than trying to apply a sheet on the inside of the door facing backwards, so it's what most people do.


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## SCHESBH (May 25, 2004)

*THANK YOU*

SR.. I have to thank you so much for your comments... I did as you recommened and it is such a huge difference! I did the doors and the hatch that had many large hole areas. It is so much quieter and not only is the bass cleaner, the midtones smooth but my highs.. well need adjustment. I would not believe the difference until tonight.. and thank you for helping me with this.

Stephen




sr20dem0n said:


> Either way works, you want as much matting material covering those holes as you can (the more material you have, the less flexible it is, so the less it will transmit sound). Having the sticky part exposed on the inside of the door isn't a problem and it's easier than trying to apply a sheet on the inside of the door facing backwards, so it's what most people do.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

no problem, glad you like the results


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