# eibach problems.... AKA The mother of all suspension threads(B14).



## Guest (Aug 22, 2002)

*eibach problems....*

i have the eibach pro kit on my 98 200sx and the front end sits way higher than the rear. i called eibach and gave them the spring numbers and they said they were right. does anyone else have this problem?? any advice?


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*Re: eibach problems....*



psi wanted said:


> *i have the eibach pro kit on my 98 200sx and the front end sits way higher than the rear. i called eibach and gave them the spring numbers and they said they were right. does anyone else have this problem?? any advice? *


There is nothing wrong with your springs. Unfortunately all B14 with those springs look higher front end. If you look at the car carefully, Front wheel arch is a lot higher than rear. That's one of the main reason why your car looks like that. For JDM (Japanese Domestic Market), Nissan re-designed rear fender arch (raised) for newer (97 and newer) B14 Sunny to prevent that ugly front raised look, but US market B14s did not get that update. There is nothing really you can do to fix this problem unless you use two different kind of springs front and rear (not recommended unless you know what those spring rates are) or get coilovers.


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## 99.se.ltd (Jun 21, 2002)

there are also certain brands that realize the front/rear height diff in our cars and make the front springs lower than the rear. i have B&G springs that are supposed to lower the front 2" and the rear 1.7". i just have to wait till i accumulate some other suspension pieces before i get everything installed.

the diff. is easy to see when you look at a stock suspension car.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*springs*

After installing lowered springs (2.0F 1.7R), my car had serious bottoming out problem. Rear bottomed out often even with Motivational rear upper mounts. With Pro-Kit (1.4) I had minor bottoming out problem, but with Motivational rear upper mounts, It doesn't bottom out anymore. Just like Pat says, I think if you lower the car more than 1.5 inch with stock side struts, your car will bottom out no matter what. In my opinion, cutting springs is unsafe unless you know the spring rates. I would stay away from that method.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

I have the prokit too. My front end looks higher too because of the larger fender gap. I heard that when you get AGX dampers, If you get the b13 front ones, they will somewhat correct this problem.

And YES, I know that the b13 front strut option is meant for the fact that the strut gives more travel, but I have heard that it has the added bonus of making the front look as low as the back b/c they're shorter.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Unless the strut is so short that it compresses the hell out of the spring, strut size wont affect height. The car sits on the springs not the struts. From what I understood the B13 struts have a shorter body(case) but the close to the same extended leagnth. If thats not the case then maybe it would lower the car some.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

1997 GA16DE said:


> *well, I just heard it as a rumor. *


No doubt i heard it too, but I have yet to see proof. Thats all


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:



> *Everyone I have talke to with those springs and aftermarket struts still has bottoming problems. Here is some info for ya. No mater how you lower a B14, If you do not use shorter struts it will bottom out.
> Not only that, but you have just ruined the all of the engineering that went into choosing the spring rates on those springs. With one swift cut you have stiffened the rate to an unknown number. the car will understeer now worse than ever. *


This is totaly correct, you cannot really even lower a B14 much without causing it to bottom unless you go up drasticaly in spring rate. Pro-kits on these cars are a joke and sportlines are a bigger joke.

If you look in the rear with pro-kits, you will see that you have maybe 1/2" of travel! If you cut the bump rubber down, you will have like 1" which is still stupid. In the front you have like 3/4". With the prokeit spring rate, you bottom under roll in turns!

If you ever see b14's set up like this on the road course, they are always bouncing and pushing like pigs because of this.

Thats why you gotta at least run a B13 front strut, which gains about 1" of travel, a GC coil over spring kit with about 325-350 front and 300 rear springs with motivational rear spring seats and koni bump stops.

Even with this yo ucan only lower the car maybe 1-1.5". People never belive me on this but I say , lets take it to the track or autocross course and I'll prove it by beating you by several seconds at least!


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

what about the TIEN coil over systems? will they lead 2 bottoming out like you guyz said?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

LIUSPEED said:


> *what about the TIEN coil over systems? will they lead 2 bottoming out like you guyz said? *


I did some inquiring about the Tein HA kit for the Nissan JN15, Tein told me that the dampers are shortened. Not sure about the new SS kit though. Drop them a line and ask.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> This is totaly correct, you cannot really even lower a B14 much without causing it to bottom unless you go up drasticaly in spring rate. Pro-kits on these cars are a joke and sportlines are a bigger joke.
> 
> ...


We arent talking about autocross only though. This is normal joe shmoe street driving. I can understand autocross but you just don't take turns at 70-90 MPH in normal driving to warrant this. 

Why do many of the people with prokits, and all the accessories (KYB B13 fronts, motivational rear mounts, koni bump stops) not have any bottoming out then? It can't be luck because we all have the same car here a B14.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil, you answered your own question, what you need depends on how/where you drive. If you drive hard all off the time you will need the fancy stuff. If just crusie and want a little better looks and respnonse, you may be happy with lowering springs, AGX's, rear mounts, ect. You must decide on what you need and how you drive before you decide on what route to take with your suspension upgrades.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Neil said:


> *
> 
> We arent talking about autocross only though. This is normal joe shmoe street driving. I can understand autocross but you just don't take turns at 70-90 MPH in normal driving to warrant this.
> 
> Why do many of the people with prokits, and all the accessories (KYB B13 fronts, motivational rear mounts, koni bump stops) not have any bottoming out then? It can't be luck because we all have the same car here a B14. *


To be honest, they are not good enough drivers to be able to tell that they are bottoming out. Either that or many people don't want to admit that there mods suck.

The reason I originaly worked with Ground Control to come out with a spring kit with higher rate springs is that the carwas bottoming out everywhere, even on the street. On the street a prokit car would bottom violently!


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> To be honest, they are not good enough drivers to be able to tell that they are bottoming out. Either that or many people don't want to admit that there mods suck.
> 
> The reason I originaly worked with Ground Control to come out with a spring kit with higher rate springs is that the carwas bottoming out everywhere, even on the street. On the street a prokit car would bottom violently! *


Taken from Sentra.net - Kojima's Garage, Suggested setups:

"Normal High Performance Budget Streetcar
Eibach Pro-Kit springs 
KYB AGX, shocks set on softest setting, Koni in the middle setting. 
Suspension Techniques swaybars. 
Front and rear STB’s 
Use poorboy alignment technique to set camber at 1 degree negative for front and rear. B14/B15 leave rear alone. 
Set toe at Zero for front 1/8 in for rear. 200SX do not adjust toe in rear. 
Set tire pressure to 37-8 psi front, rear at 34-5 psi. "

I am not in any way arguing here, just curious. Why are the Prokits in one of your sugested setups if they are so horibble on the street? I know why they are so bad because of my experince with Sportlines(Prokits cant be much better). I think the other members would like to get your feedback on this.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*wait a minute..*

I am curious about this too. I thought this was the "recommended" set up for street high performance driving. I did experience bottoming out problem whth this set up and I had serious understeering problem when I AutoXed and now I know this was one of the main problem. 

I do AutoX every once a while, but my car is a daily driven car. I didn't want anything to affect my daily driving especially here in Utah's terrible road condition. I hope I am not the one don't want to admit my mods suck. After reading Mike's post, I know for sure my mods I have on my car suck. But when I knew that at first place, I never had paid my money to get something that suck. Oh well, I guess it's too late and there's nothing I can do unless I get the whole new set up.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

I have a set of prokits and I like them alot. I heard that the Sportlines had a crappy ride and suck at performing but the prokit's aren't too bad IMO espcially since I'm still riding on stock dampers (for now). I've never done auto-X and I don't have that great of a desire to either but I have taken some pretty wicked turns on these springs and they seem to be fine. I've never bottomed out on them and this is coming from a guy who takes U-turns at like 40mph (you can ask my pasangers on that one). The pro-kits are no 350/300 GC's but I'd take it over any other stand alone spring on the market.

BTW, if you're getting alot of bottoming out, isn't that what bump stops are for?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

"To be honest, they are not good enough drivers to be able to tell that they are bottoming out. Either that or many people don't want to admit that there mods suck."

Yes that is what the bumpstops are for, but it seems likes you are not thinking about what happens when you bottom out(as far a suspension theory). If you are not thinking of that, then you should. You end up putting your effective rate right through the roof. Then your car understeers like a damn pig. All I can say is that if you are running lowering springs and stock size damper and you are not experencing bottoming, you are either driving like and old lady or like Mike said you just dont know.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

So in effect you guys are saying either keep it stock or get coilovers. 

Are there no springs on the market that deliver good results with little to no bottoming with


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *So in effect you guys are saying either keep it stock or get coilovers.
> 
> Are there no springs on the market that deliver good results with little to no bottoming with *


Bam!! we have a winner..
For real though, yeah that about all we got. Damn Nissan engineers(oops.. I better watch my mouth around here).


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

So in effect you guys are saying either keep it stock or get coilovers. 

Are there no springs on the market that deliver good results with little to no bottoming coupled with:

1) motivational rear mounts
2) cut bump stops
3) KYB b14 rear shocks / b13 front struts ?


So what exactly is the "mod that sucks"? Is it the springs? Or is it just that the car sucks because it is cursed with no travel to begin with? I'm sure the engineers didn't exactly think too much about lowering the sentra when they built it.

I was gonna get prokits but now im not sure what to do. I don't want coilovers because I'd never use the adjustability so seems like waste of money IMO.


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

It's the fact that the car has such little suspension travel that lowering the car any amount with shorter springs on the stock dampers will make the car bottom out. To keep it from doing that, you would have to have a really high spring rate to keep the vertical movement to a minimum, because too much vertical movement (which is next to nothing on our cars) will make it bottom out. However the stock dampers are so loose that it would make the car bounce like crazy because the springs are so stiff and the stock ones can't absorb all the energy from the stiffer springs.

It would look like a blown shock on a stock setup. You test for that by shoving the corner of the car downward then letting go. It should rise back up then sit still, with no bouncing. That's a good shock with a spring the shock can handle. The spring is what moves the car back up and the shock is what absorbs all the momentum from the spring when it moves it up to keep it from bouncing. If the shock is blown, the car will just bounce up and down on the spring because it can't absorb the energy from the spring anymore.

Same thing goes with stiffer springs. The stock shocks aren't built to absorb all the energy from the stiff springs so they just bounce around and wear out the shock valves. I used to change shocks and struts on cars where I used to work, and I would get bored and play with the shocks to see how strong (weak) I was. Those weakling stock shocks on most cars you can compress them in your hands and they expand back out, but have you ever tried to do that to one of those 4x4 Ranchero 5000 shocks you see on lifted trucks? It's next to impossible. They're made to handle extremely stiff springs.

Coil-overs are definitely the way to go. They add more travel to the suspension and with the right shocks they will handle nicely and not bottom out nearly as much. Hopefully that more than answers your question. I have a tendency to talk too much.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

So should I sell my pro-kits (brand new) and kyb front adjustables (brand new too)? I mean, if the only good thing out there are ground controls (which I cant afford), then why should I bother lowering the car? I live in NYC, home of the world's bumpiest roads.....I dont want to be bottoming out on every corner. I really dont get all this crap!!


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

based on the coilover principle, if the struts' perch sit lower, the strut can actually affect ride height, even with the same spring, ie prokits, doesn't SCC project 1.6 have the shorter struts with the lower perch???


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Right, if you move the perch with relation to the knuckle mounting bolts the ride height will change(hence threaded bodies like GC coilovers). I belive SCC P1.6 has motivational shortened struts. By looking at a pic of a ME strut next to a stock strut. You can see that the body is shorter, but the perch is not moved. Also you can see the shortened strut with threaded body and perch. As you said it if the perch moves the height will.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*for whoever still want's to use Pro-Kit*

To minimise this bottoming out problem with Eibach Pro-Kit springs:

-Get Motivational Engineering Rear upper mounts.
-Get Koni Bump Rubbers (Motivational sells them)
-Get B13 front struts and B14 rear shocks. (KYB AGX) or Motivational shortened struts.

I think you will still experience bottoming out problem with this set up. For whoever AutoX, I guess Coliover is the only set up to go.

With stock struts or even stock leangth KYB AGX, your car will bottom out no matter how hard you try not to. It's sad, but this is truth.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

hey carbonblack or anyone. I was thinking of getting some bumpstops, I've heard somewhere that with pro-kits, you should cut the bumpstops in half or something b/c they will reduce the trave too much. Is this true?


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*Bump rubbers*



1997 GA16DE said:


> *hey carbonblack or anyone. I was thinking of getting some bumpstops, I've heard somewhere that with pro-kits, you should cut the bumpstops in half or something b/c they will reduce the trave too much. Is this true? *


If you drop your car 1", cut your bump rubbers 1". If you lower 1.5" cut your bump rubbers 1.5". But Don't cut your bump rubbers more than half. That means if you lower 3", you can't cut your stock bump rubbers 3". This will blow your struts. So it's telling you how much lowering is too much. I forgot how long our stock bump rubbers were. But I don't think those were any bigger than 3". 
If you lower your car without cutting bump rubbers, you will be pretty much riding on bump rubbers (bouncing all over). 

You could get the Koni bump rubbers, but that's optional. Those are made by soft Polyurethane and absorbs some of the shocks instead of bouncing back like nomal rubbers do. That's why when you bottom out, those polyurethane bump rubbers feel better than stock.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

First of all you have to relize what the bumstops do. They are there to keep the piston from bottoming out inside of the strut body. When this happens it damages the valving. From the factory the stops are a little longer then what they need to be(depends on who you talk to). So you can cut them to regain lost travel, but if you go too much you will really screw up the damper valves. I belive the instruction that come with Sportlines say to cut 30mm off jsut to give you an idea.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

so i guess ill get sportlines which are 1.9" and cut my bump rubbers 1.9" but will this make my front end look higher and unproportional to the car?? i just want an even drop.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*cutting bump rubbers*



Blu200SX said:


> *so i guess ill get sportlines which are 1.9" and cut my bump rubbers 1.9" but will this make my front end look higher and unproportional to the car?? i just want an even drop. *


No. You might wanna read our posts again carefully. You don't wanna cut your bump rubbers any more than half.

Maybe the way I explained made you confuse. I think your stock bump rubbers are no bigger than 70mm. (a little more than 2") If you cut the bump rubbers 1.9 inch, that means you are cutting way more than half and that's going to cause serious trouble.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

yeh, it didnt say how big the bump rubbers were. so how much would you recommend cutting bump rubbers for 1.9"? and will this make my front end higher? or will it even out? im still a little confused


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *yeh, it didnt say how big the bump rubbers were. so how much would you recommend cutting bump rubbers for 1.9"? and will this make my front end higher? or will it even out? im still a little confused *


Again, please read our posts. Scroll up and read PatScottAKA99XE's post. You will find the answer. 

Bump rubbers have nothing to do with your ride hight, and if you read the whole thread, you will see this 1.9 inch drop will give you problems no matter how you cut your bump rubbers.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

CarbonBlack200sx

in one of your posts you stated 

"After installing lowered springs (2.0F 1.7R), my car had serious bottoming out problem. Rear bottomed out often even with Motivational rear upper mounts. With Pro-Kit (1.4) I had minor bottoming out problem, but with Motivational rear upper mounts, It doesn't bottom out anymore. "

So you don't experience bottoming out with prokits anymore then correct? I was confused because in a later post you said you'd get bottoming with prokits no matter what.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*Bottoming*



Neil said:



> *CarbonBlack200sx
> 
> in one of your posts you stated
> 
> ...




I have three sets of springs (include stock) and I have been testing them all. With my B+G springs (2.0F 1.7R), my car bottomed out pretty bad everywhere. Not as bad with Pro-Kit (1.4 F/R), but still did bottom out over rough road or under hard turning on AutoX. A lot of time, you can notice the bottoming by big "BAM!!" impact, because your springs stick and body is taking the shock. When your suspension bottom out when you are taking the corner, you usually don't feel that "BAM!", but your car will cause heavy understeer all of a sudden. Same reason. Your springs stick and stop doing its job. This is dangerous and worst case senario, you could cause an serious accident. It happens a lot when you are trying to turn your car and brake hard at the same time. Most time, people don't notice the bottoming unless they feel the big impact, but it is happening a lot more than you think.


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

i think the real question is how can we get our cars to sit right as well as handle well enought to drive on the street without screwing something up in the long run....

i can't stand the way my car sits...looks like it got a load of shit in the trunk...

my freind took his stock springs off a 96 gxe and cut them about 1/2" in the front and the ride feels great imo!!!

what i did was throw smaller tires in the fron and larger in the back... it made a little diffrence as to looks...


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

The ONLY way to get your car to sit right(ie. same wheel gap F&R) and perform well is to get shortened strut coilovers. After years of research(yes, years) and talking to other people who have done even more research and have experimented. This is the only way to do it right.
BTW, those of you concerend with the "high nose" look must relize that its all because of wheel well shape(the front is bigger). If you set your car up to have the same fender gap F&R you are going to end up with your car being "nose low". Just want to be sure you relize that. My car has the "nose high" look with Sport lines, but if I measure the the height from the ground to the pinch welds its pretty damn close front to rear.

"Most time, people don't notice the bottoming unless they feel the big impact, but it is happening a lot more than you think."- CarbonBlack200 
^ Oh, so true!

Since it seems like some of you dont want to read all of the posts, hopefully you see this.. Do not cut any more than the specifed(30mm) amount off your bumpstops with Sportlines. If you do you will damage the damper valves.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

well, pretty much, if you cut the bumpstops more than 30mm, it just defeats the purpose of buying them. It can't be any worse than not having bumpstops at all (like me), right?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Overlooked said:


> *If your car bottoms out with any Eibach spring you didn't cut the bump stop!!!!! *


I am sorry, but this is BS. I have Eibachs and cut stops. I bottom
CarbonBlack200 has used Eibachs with cut stops. That bottomed.

The list goes on.
Driven hard enough with sticky tires a stock Sentra would probly bottom out.

We *have* to face the facts: Everything besides shortened strut sytems, prefferably coilovers is a waste of money. Leave your car alone if you can not afford to get the right stuff, or suffer from a shitty ass, dangerous, and damaging ride.

Oh yea, If you think its bad that your buds laugh at your "skyed" ride. What will people in the "know" will think of it when you get some lowering springs? *Ghetto* I know my springs are and that and performance is why I am saving my money for AD coilovers.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

1997 GA16DE said:


> *well, pretty much, if you cut the bumpstops more than 30mm, it just defeats the purpose of buying them. It can't be any worse than not having bumpstops at all (like me), right? *


#1. No it doesnt defeat the purpose. You cut the stock ones to reagain travel. You buy the Koni ones because you regain travel and it make bottoming not as harsh as stock ones(cut), Harsh bottoming(front) leads to horrible understeer.

#2 You are using stock dampers with out bumpstops? That is so ghetto. I fell better about my car now. You are *killing* your damper vavles. I feel bad for them.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

hey patscott, whatever happened to that strut/coilover system you mentioned in another thread earlier on?


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *#2 You are using stock dampers with out bumpstops? That is so ghetto. I fell better about my car now. You are killing your damper vavles. I feel bad for them. *


Right now I'm saving up for some AGXs (b13 front). After reading this thread I'm almost sorry I got the Pro-kits. Anyway, to make the best of it, I'll try to later on get some bumpstops and upper mounts.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

1997 GA16DE said:


> *hey patscott, whatever happened to that strut/coilover system you mentioned in another thread earlier on? *


Wich one? The Tein HA? The Advance Design?
After some research(which it seems lots of people here refuse to do). I decied that the Tein HA's would not meet my goals. The Advance Design on the other hand will execede them.

Quick run down of coilovers I have found for the B14:
Advance Design - Shortened dampers, dual external adj. and any rate you want.
Tein HA for JN15 - Shortend dampers, single ext adj, bad included rates for B14's, but others are availible.
Whiteline for JN15 - not sure if these will work, dont have much info.
Motivational Eng. Shortend, internal adj(single ext availible for fronts I think), choice of rate, but only to a point.
Tein SS - no real info yet.
There may be some more, but I can not remeber them all right now.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

How about the problems with the GC coilovers I mentioned often? I havent seen too much here becuase im new but i've been at b15setnra.net forums for like 3 years and noticed many people have complained about the "clunking" noises from ground control setup, things not sitting correctly, and a very stiff ride. Are these problems warranted because GC coilovers are a "budget" coilover system?

Also I think I have bottomed out with stock springs/shocks etc. One time in GA I hit one of those bumps where it launches your car in the air and I got air on my front two wheels and when I hit the ground it made a loud noise. 

So im curious these problems are only associated with our cars and other low end cars right? Any normal car would have enough travel to use lowering springs? I'm just wondering if I should dump my sentra and buy something else. It sux that in order to make it look good and run smooth you have to turn it into a freakin rally car. 

Someone said lowering springs were ghetto but lowering a car 1.4" or so really isnt a lot. It gives it a look that would come stock on a volkwagon, a BMW, mercedes, audi, etc etc. and none of these cars come wtih coilovers. I'm sure theres also ppl making fun of ppl putting coilovers on a sentra because by the time you make it perform good enough you have spent nuff money to buy a better handling, more powerful, faster, better looking car.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil,
The setup I am talking about(Advance Design) Does not have those problems you mentioned. You are thinking of the normal GC sleave setup. The AD's are different. The slip-on sleaves are what causes many of the noises. The AD do not use sleaves. Things not sitting right is most likely solved with the AD setup. The very stiff ride is cause by the customer not the kit. They ordered too stiff of a rate. They only have themselves to blame(probly for the incorect sitting as well) GC's are by no means a "budget" setup. they are one of the best(if not the best). Well the AD is better, but it is a whole damper, not a kit. Here is a pic of the AD(notice no sleaves)









The problems are not being cause by us having "low end" cars. Its just the way they were designed. They were not designed with us(tuners) in mind. They probly never intended it to be lowered.(its an econo-car, remember) There are many cars out there with this problem. Its not just limited to our cars(which, btw are normal cars). Rally car? Why do we have to turn it into a rally car???

Lowering a Sentra(B14) 1.4" is alot. All of those cars you mentioned are German, they have the Autobahn..we dont. That is why there suspensions are better(IMHO) You could by a car with the money you can invest into a Sentra, but it will be a stock car. A properly setup Sentra can give some of the more expensive(and stock) cars a run for their money, and do it for less total. If you dont like being laughed at, then you should get rid of it. Me, I know that when I get done with mine all of those laughs will turn into cries as my econo box beats up on the "sports" cars, and does it for Less money.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

hey if i get eibach sportlines and cut the bumpstops, when my buddies see the car will they clown on it and say it looks funny front and rear? or will it actually look pretty sick? thats my worry as of now...i dont want my car looking like shit. i know i know i have read all of the previous posts but im asking when i get eibach sportline springs...my car will be "looking" like shit? how big of a deal is this?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *hey if i get eibach sportlines and cut the bumpstops, when my buddies see the car will they clown on it and say it looks funny front and rear? or will it actually look pretty sick? thats my worry as of now...i dont want my car looking like shit. i know i know i have read all of the previous posts but im asking when i get eibach sportline springs...my car will be "looking" like shit? how big of a deal is this? *


This is what it will look like(minus 2 doors of course).
I have Sportlines and cut stops(30mm) BTW the stops have NOTHING to do with how it looks


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

does everything here aplly to me.... i thought 99 se had a little diffrent setup.... i was not sure though


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

selrider99 said:


> *does everything here aplly to me.... i thought 99 se had a little diffrent setup.... i was not sure though *


Same


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2002)

Overlooked said:


> *If your car bottoms out with any Eibach spring you didn't cut the bump stop!!!!! *


Give me an SE-R with Eibachs and cut bump stops and I'll GUARANTEE you I can get it to bottom out. While you may not *THINK* you are bottoming out, it will happen quite frequently. You just may not be recognizing when it happens. I have cut bumpstops on Eibachs and the car (fortunately) has not bottomed out on the track in turns but it *HAS* bottomed out on straight surfaces as well as one street where I could probably get just about any car to bottom around a certain turn... and it's scary when it happens!


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA said:


> *
> 
> Give me an SE-R with Eibachs and cut bump stops and I'll GUARANTEE you I can get it to bottom out. While you may not *THINK* you are bottoming out, it will happen quite frequently. You just may not be recognizing when it happens. I have cut bumpstops on Eibachs and the car (fortunately) has not bottomed out on the track in turns but it *HAS* bottomed out on straight surfaces as well as one street where I could probably get just about any car to bottom around a certain turn... and it's scary when it happens! *



How many more replies like this do we need before everyone understands? 
Thanks 02 ALMERA


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

hey i saw that pic and the car doesnt look that bad. well i have a 200SX and i would imagine the body length is shorter than the 4 door...so would that make the front look more higher? or would it just be the same?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *hey i saw that pic and the car doesnt look that bad. well i have a 200SX and i would imagine the body length is shorter than the 4 door...so would that make the front look more higher? or would it just be the same?
> 
> *


Why would it look different? Same chassis(but, shorter)/suspension. If it does its in your head. Any B14 with Sportlines will have the same amount of wheel gap as mine.

BTW, I didnt really edit your post. I hit the edit button instead of quote.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

This is gonna sound harsh, but its really just sarcasim.
Seems to me some of the people posting in this thread are more concerned with form over function. You do not seem to care about performance, ride quality, saftey, or reliability. Why dont those of you just cut your springs. It would save you a whole lot of money. Your ride will end up crappy just like lowering springs with stock style struts. The best part is you can go as low as you want. You will not be limited by the drops currently offered to you.


*Disclamer* I am NOT telling you to cut your springs. It can be very dangerous. I am just going a little nuts becasue I am a performance orented guy who doesnt really care about looks and it is hard for me to relate. I am trying to stop you from making the same mistake I did(Lowering springs). Thats why I may seem like such a dick to those of you who want a good looking ride. I am really trying to help. Honest.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *Thats why I may seem like such a dick to those of you who want a good looking ride. I am really trying to help. Honest. *


Agreed... to each their own. Some people prefer looks to performance. Me, personally, I prefer performance while I'm whooping on C5s and Porsches on the track! I have Eibach ProKits (uncut) and AGX's and cannot wait to get a better suspension! Just wait.... just you C5s and bimmers and porsches and other 'fast' cars wait! Next year....

but cut springs really aren't good performers at all!


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

Ok, some of you in here don't even bother about performance or safety.
But if you really want to know what we are talking about, I would suggest you to take your car to the AutoX event. AutoX is one of the "safest" way to know how your car perform/act under hard driving and most time you get to experience "bottoming" problem. You will know what your car does when your car bottoms out, and how dangerous and annoying thing it is. 

02 ALMERA and PatScottAKA99XE is so right about this. And we have been trying to get you folks understand this for last couple of days and some of you still don't seem to understand what we have been trying to say. In my opinion, doing the "RICER" way (i.e. cutting springs, lowering extreme amount) with KNOWING all of this we said just isn't worth it. If you want to ignore our suggestions, that's fine with me, but just do this at your own risk. 

Thank you, and Good luck.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *Neil,
> The setup I am talking about(Advance Design) Does not have those problems you mentioned. You are thinking of the normal GC sleave setup. The AD's are different. The slip-on sleaves are what causes many of the noises. The AD do not use sleaves. Things not sitting right is most likely solved with the AD setup. The very stiff ride is cause by the customer not the kit. They ordered too stiff of a rate. They only have themselves to blame(probly for the incorect sitting as well) GC's are by no means a "budget" setup. they are one of the best(if not the best). Well the AD is better, but it is a whole damper, not a kit. Here is a pic of the AD(notice no sleaves)
> 
> 
> ...


*

Wow those are different looking than the ones I saw before. Must be those other ones you were talking about that those ppl had. I admit they look pretty cool.

Not sure if someone can explain this faster than the ground control ppl.

This is listed on their website for applications for sentra: Is this the good ground controls or the shitty ones?

6030.01 200SX / Sentra 95-99 1,2 A,D 0 to 3 $399 
6030.02 200SX / Sentra 95-99 4 A,D 0 to 3 $399 
6030.03 200SX / Sentra 95-99 7,8,10 A,D 0 to 3 $399 

It says on the website that that number before the A,D is the "Shock". What do these numbers mean? 

So for $399 it basically replaces aftermarket springs and you still have to buy shocks/struts/motivational mounts/bumpstops 

How does this pricing work? $399/each? Or is this for 2 or 4?

Also on the website they list A, D and A means "some shocks/struts require grinding/machining to fit coil-over hardware". Does it really require this or they just saying it might?

Sorry for questions, i just dont wanna blow $200 on prokits and $350 on agxs if im gonna be bottoming from driving out of my freakin driveway  I want to buy wheels but I dont want to unless I can lower my car at same time.*


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *
> 
> Wow those are different looking than the ones I saw before. Must be those other ones you were talking about that those ppl had. I admit they look pretty cool. *


Yes these are different. This is the style with out sleaves. Sorry for not being clear about what my other AD pic was of. My bad.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2002)

CarbonBlack200 said:


> *Ok, some of you in here don't even bother about performance or safety.
> But if you really want to know what we are talking about, I would suggest you to take your car to the AutoX event. AutoX is one of the "safest" way to know how your car perform/act under hard driving and most time you get to experience "bottoming" problem. You will know what your car does when your car bottoms out, and how dangerous and annoying thing it is.
> 
> 02 ALMERA and PatScottAKA99XE is so right about this. And we have been trying to get you folks understand this for last couple of days and some of you still don't seem to understand what we have been trying to say. In my opinion, doing the "RICER" way (i.e. cutting springs, lowering extreme amount) with KNOWING all of this we said just isn't worth it. If you want to ignore our suggestions, that's fine with me, but just do this at your own risk.
> ...


How true about autox! I hate autox for that very reason (bottoming)!!! My car bottomed so much more at autox events than it does at track events. Plus, autox eats tires like you wouldn't believe (but that's a whole other issue!)

In terms of cutting springs and screwing with the spring rates, it'd require a tremendous amount of engineering (and I mean *REAL* engineering... way beyond my knowledge) to figure out what spring rates you'd need to start with. This is because the top and bottom coils are not the same spring rate as the main portion of the spring. Therefore, as someone mentioned (I think I saw in browsing this thread) previously, you'd wind up changing your spring rates to some unknown rate (unless you actually took the time to really seriously calculate the rates including the cut coil) Not worth it! Especially if you're performance-oriented. 

But, then again, some people are more for the looks... like I said previously, to each their own. Cutting coils isn't for some of us but others may just prefer that cheap alternative for the looks of it


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA,
You could probably tell, but jsut so EVERYONE understands. I was kidding about cutting them. I was being totally sarcastic. Dont do it.
Yeah, it was me and CarbonBlack200 talking about what cutting does to rates. We have done our homework.


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

You guys ready?

I knew my engineering physics class wasn't useless after all.

Hooke's Law for spring force:

*F = -kx*

Where F is the force placed on the spring, k is the force constant (spring stiffness) and x is the displacement, or distance, of the stretching or compressing of the spring. The force is proportional to the force constant times the displacement of the spring when moved from its at-rest position to its fully compressed (or expanded) position.

So you run over a curb, pothole, bump in the road, small or big, or what-have-you, the chassis drops in height relative to the wheel when the wheel rises up into the fender-well from hitting the bump, and the chassis doesn't want to move because of its inertia, so the spring compresses. At a given constant speed, considering you hit the same bump over and over again at that speed, the force acting on the wheel will be the same every time. Write that down. 

Subbing the necessary variables and graphing, the force acting on the spring is linear from the point of rest, which is zero net force, until it reaches its maximum displacement, or when the spring is completely compressed.

Common algebra law says that since the force acting on the spring in the said bump in the road is always the same, raising the magnitude of the displacement x must in turn lower the magnitude of the force constant k to keep F the same constant value, which is has to be in this example.

So therefore, on a spring of a given length and given stiffness, if you cut the spring you steepen the line in the graph, which means that compressing a cut spring two inches takes more force to compress than to compress a regular spring two inches, because the distance between the at-rest point and the fully compressed point of the spring is shorter on the cut spring: if you have to lower x, you have to raise k, which is the stiffness.

So if it takes more force to compress a cut spring, we must remember that the force acting on the spring from the bump is a constant. That means that on the cut spring the distance the spring actually compresses is much less, because the force on the spring moves it a shorter distance because the force constant is larger.

Here it comes: If you lower the distance the spring moves... you have to raise the force constant proportionally to keep the net force constant, which is has to be in this example. A bigger force constant means a stiffer spring, which means a *BUMPY ASS RIDE ON STOCK DAMPERS.* The shorter the distance the spring compresses, the bouncier the ride feels because it doesn't absorb as much of the forces from the road properly. The chassis will move much greater distances because the spring doesn't absorb momentum by moving instead. The chassis mimicks more of the road variations than the stiffer spring can.

And I think we've all gone over the fact that you need the dampening power to handle stiffer springs. 

In case you got bored reading this, in layman's terms, you cut your springs, you raise the spring rate, and you get a crappy ride on stock dampers.

Okay, I'm done. Bye.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

UnderDog said:


> *You guys ready?
> 
> I knew my engineering physics class wasn't useless after all.
> 
> ...


Now I could flame you becasue I have said this Oonnee Biiillliiioon(Dr. Evil voice) times or I could say good job.

Are you guys getting this? How many of you have read my posts about this? How many times did you disagree with me about what cutting does to the rate? Guess what, looks like I am not the only one who knows what I am talking about. Am i being a A-hole? Power trip you say. Sorry if it seems that way. That is not my intention. I got pretty frustrated when everyone said I was wrong(cutting/rates) and no one backed me up. Thank you UnderDog!!!*GOOD JOB* 
BTW, when did we start talking about this again(rates/dampers)??Anyway I am glad it came up again.

*edit* Ok that was a lil harsh, but if that is what it takes to get the point across and save some members from making mistakes, so be it.


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

I just thought I would let Mr. Hooke finally settle the spring rate argument once and for all in case it reared its ugly head again.
Thanks again - Pat 


I like your ASE cert. I qualified for it because I worked at the same shop for more than the minimum amount of time and fit the requirements but since I only did mechanic work part time my boss wasn't willing to pay for the cert classes, so I just didn't do it. I eventually left that shop anyway. Such is life.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

Damn...oh well. I DO autocross from time to time, but I decided to stop until I install my springs. A friend of mine took pics of the car at autocross, and it was scary to see that the car was about 2 inches from the ground in the corners. I was gonna get B&G springs (softer than eibach), but I wanted the stiffer ones for auto-x, so I stuck with eibach. I understand all that has been said in this thread, and I acknowlege the fact that I will be bottoming out on these [email protected]$$ roads. As much as I hate the uneven fender gaps, I guess I'm stuck with it. I guess I'll be careful on these springs (pro-kits)...but its my mother I'm worried about....she flies over bumps without knowing.  Oh well, I think I should stop reading this, because it makes me want to undo all that I have done...just kidding. Thanks for all the info guys, keep the discussion going.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

any of yall knoww which ground controls are the ones listed on their website the bad sleave ones or the good ones you were talking about? They also don't have different rates listed on the website but a bunch of single digit numbers.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *any of yall knoww which ground controls are the ones listed on their website the bad sleave ones or the good ones you were talking about? They also don't have different rates listed on the website but a bunch of single digit numbers. *


The good ones are the $400 ones, $400 a corner that is. They are $400 each for the rears($800 total) and $520 each for the fronts($1040 total) The fronts are $120 more because they need to get strut housings. This is what I was told when I called them. This price is for damper, threaded perch and mounts(?). You still will need to buy springs $55 each.

I think I may need to clarify what the differences are.

Ground Control coilovers - Threaded sleave kit with for use with stock or aftermarket type B14 dampers(shocks/struts). With springs(I think) One part # does all 4 corners. Total cost: about $400(with out dampers)


Advance Design coilovers - Dampers(shocks/sturts) with threaded bodies. Dual external adjust for compression and rebound. Full race capible. Shortened dampers. No springs included. One part # is only one damper. Total cost: about $2100(with springs.


Advance Design and Ground Control are basicly the same company. You get the Advance Design coilovers from Ground Control.

www.ground-control.com
www.advance-design.com


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *its nice of you guys to write a whole novel on for the pros and cons of lowering springs...yes personally i am in it for the looks cause face it. i am pretty young and this isnt gonna be my last car so "ooooooo's and ahhhhhhh's" will do just fine. im not a racer or autoxer. i have heard from people that eibach lowering springs like them and some dont. im a little poor so ill take my chances but thanks for the info anyways. *


You may be in it for looks, but what you do not understand is that 
they really suck. The ride is horrible, the handeling is awful, and it is dangerous. Those that like them dont relize how bad their ride is. I am not talking about racing either. For regular street use they suck.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *
> 
> The good ones are the $400 ones, $400 a corner that is. They are $400 each for the rears($800 total) and $520 each for the fronts($1040 total) The fronts are $120 more because they need to get strut housings. This is what I was told when I called them. This price is for damper, threaded perch and mounts(?). You still will need to buy springs $55 each. *



LOL so by time your done with everything (with mounts, rubbers, etc) about $2500 for suspension! Jesus christ i don't even think my 95' sentra is worth that much blue book.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> To be honest, they are not good enough drivers to be able to tell that they are bottoming out. Either that or many people don't want to admit that there mods suck.
> 
> The reason I originaly worked with Ground Control to come out with a spring kit with higher rate springs is that the carwas bottoming out everywhere, even on the street. On the street a prokit car would bottom violently! *


Stereotyped answer. Not all Pro-kit cars bottom out violently on the street. I drive on some of the roughest streets in Atlanta everyday on my way to work. With 3/4" cut out of my stock B14 stops, I get very little bottoming at all. And I'm good enough to know when I'm bottoming. At first, I will admit, they bottomed when my AGX's were set to 1 in the front and 2 in the rear. Now that they are on 2 in the front & 4 in the rear, the hardly ever bottom at all.

Just my $.02


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *
> 
> 
> LOL so by time your done with everything (with mounts, rubbers, etc) about $2500 for suspension! Jesus christ i don't even think my 95' sentra is worth that much blue book. *


There is a hefty price to pay for greatness.
Yeah, the cost of the AD set-up is in that area. Personally I think that its worth the cost to have a setup with as much adjustiblity and quality.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2002)

Neil said:


> *
> 
> 
> LOL so by time your done with everything (with mounts, rubbers, etc) about $2500 for suspension! Jesus christ i don't even think my 95' sentra is worth that much blue book. *


I'm almost ashamed to admit that the sum of all the mods on my car probably cost twice as much as my car is actually worth. And blue book never takes that stuff into account either... you'll never see that money again unless you sell the car to an enthusiast. and even then...


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

96BlkSE-R said:


> *
> 
> Stereotyped answer. Not all Pro-kit cars bottom out violently on the street. I drive on some of the roughest streets in Atlanta everyday on my way to work. With 3/4" cut out of my stock B14 stops, I get very little bottoming at all. And I'm good enough to know when I'm bottoming. At first, I will admit, they bottomed when my AGX's were set to 1 in the front and 2 in the rear. Now that they are on 2 in the front & 4 in the rear, the hardly ever bottom at all.
> 
> Just my $.02 *



Don't you have a stiff ride with 2 and 4 settings? People with AGX's that i've talked 2 said anything above a 3 is jaw shattering  I guess in order to keep it from bottoming gotta sacrifice smoother stocklike ride for harder stiffer one. Ahhh the tradeoffs of life..


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2002)

Neil said:


> *
> 
> 
> Don't you have a stiff ride with 2 and 4 settings? People with AGX's that i've talked 2 said anything above a 3 is jaw shattering  I guess in order to keep it from bottoming gotta sacrifice smoother stocklike ride for harder stiffer one. Ahhh the tradeoffs of life.. *


2 and 5 is optimal in my opinion. However, when I had the original Place Racing motor mounts (the extremely stiff ones that have loosened every body piece on my car!) 1 and 2 was max. For some reason, when I went *STIFFER* on the AGX's, the car *FELT* looser. It was weird... lowering the suspension made the car feel stiffer. Maybe that was the car bottoming  Now, with ES inserts, 2 and 5 feels best.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

I agree with 96BlkSER. With softest setting (KYB AGX), my car seemed to bottom out a lot more. Right now I have setted mine 2 front 5 rear. Ride is not too stiff and with Motivational rear upper mount, it hardly ever bottom out. 
My front suspension still has "major" bottoming problem because it's lowered 2".

By the way I am running B+G front (2.0" drop) and Pro-Kit rear (1.4" drop). With KYB AGX set at 2 front 5 rear. This is funny set up, but I like this set up if front didn't bottom out so much. I am just testing this for AutoX and I do not recommend anyone to try this.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

well thats certainly a unique setup there. Yeah that 2.0 is a lot. Doesnt it ride strange with the softer bigger b&gs up front and stiffer shorter eibachs on the rear? 

whats next you gonna put a b&g left rear, sprint right rear, sportline left front and prokit right front


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *well thats certainly a unique setup there. Yeah that 2.0 is a lot. Doesnt it ride strange with the softer bigger b&gs up front and stiffer shorter eibachs on the rear?
> 
> whats next you gonna put a b&g left rear, sprint right rear, sportline left front and prokit right front  *


I was trying to make rear springs stiffer because my car understeered bad when I autoXed. You can reduce understeer by using stiffer rear springs, that's why I tried that set up just to see if it helps or not. There were other reasons making my car understeer so it didn't help whole lot, but it did improve the street handling.
There are two more big reason my car still understeer when I autoX. If you were following this thread, you should know the reason 1. It's suspension travel. Another one is rear toe. If I can solve those two problems, I will love the way my car rides.

You have a excellent idea about mixing 4 different springs. I might have to try that set up next.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

CarbonBlack200 said:


> *
> 
> I was trying to make rear springs stiffer because my car understeered bad when I autoXed. *


Try running a rear strut tower bar with none in the front. I noticed an increase in oversteer when I removed the front STB for 'experimentation'  

FWIW, on the track, my car is pretty incredibly neutral. I don't quite know why (and don't care... until it changes) but there is *MINIMAL* understeer and, in a few instances, I've had oversteer... maybe that's trail-braking though  But that's without swaybars... mostly tire pressure adjustments


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*AutoX and suspension*



02 ALMERA said:


> *
> 
> Try running a rear strut tower bar with none in the front. I noticed an increase in oversteer when I removed the front STB for 'experimentation'
> 
> FWIW, on the track, my car is pretty incredibly neutral. I don't quite know why (and don't care... until it changes) but there is *MINIMAL* understeer and, in a few instances, I've had oversteer... maybe that's trail-braking though  But that's without swaybars... mostly tire pressure adjustments *


Excellent idea. I was thinking about the same thing (taking front STB off). By the way, I had a thread about AutoX handling discussion. Let me give you a link. You'll see a same o Goldmember face there. 
http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1841
I should play more with tire pressure too. And I don't have rear sway bar either.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Face it guys( the 3 or 4 of us who "know"), we may not be dealing with people that care even a little about having proper suspension. If this is the case we may not want to waste anymore of our time trying to help them. Our time(posts) could be better used helping out people who want to know how to do it right. Obviously we know a little more about this than some. Dont get me wrong its a good thing we are doing(trying to help), but if some wont listen what is the point? Why repeat the same things over and over again? Its in black and white(black and gray). Once should be enough. If it is not, then maybe we are wasting time here. I will continue to give advice though, even though it may seem futile(sp). Thats just the way I am. I will pound my experence into someone(or many) if I think I can help just one.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

CarbonBlack200 said:


> *I agree with 96BlkSER.*


Thank you. Now if I could only hear that from my WIFE. (YEAH, FAT CHANCE!!!)

I've had my rear set at 5 & 6 with my ProKit springs(-1.4 F/R), but with the streets I drive on the way to work, my back would actually start hurting. I've had it on 4 for about 3 mos., except for the week I tried 3. After 4, 3 felt like a slushbox, so back to 4 I went.

And, despite what you read here, mine hardly ever bottoms out and gets squirrelly. Granted, I don't autoX, so mine is purely street opinion. I do drive very hard on the hilly, curvy roads around my house, so I could bottom it out on occasion.

Neil - yeah, it rides a good deal harsher than stock, but the decreased body roll is worth it to me. Less body roll + my tires actually working = great handling (at least good enough for me).

To each his own. I have about $800 in my struts/shocks/springs & all new rubber from Nissan. I'll take the $1300-1700 I have left over from the AD setup and put it towards my DET install. If that's OK with you, 99XE...

Later...


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

i think we got your point PatScott well I think I did.

coilovers = good and expensive
springs = cheap and bad

moral of story:

if you want cheap and dont care about performance go with springs

if you want to autox, have more money than bill gates, and want to reduce bottoming go with coilovers


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

99XE, I'm not trying to dispute your knowledge. But, for the kind of driving I do, my setup seems to work. OK, so I might lightly bottom from time to time. But I don't autoX, so I just feel my hard-earned money might perform better for me in other places, like more HP.

Believe me, this forum needs people to educate the masses of young people (no slap at anyone) who can carry on the legacy. But, very few people my age (33) are willing to spend $2k+ on suspension unless we are really going to push the envelope. I nowhere near max out what I've got at the moment. And what I've got is far superior to the stock stuff as far as I'm concerned.

Just my humble opinion.

Your fellow ASE-certified technician,


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil,
You are "oh so close", but not quite there.
Your are right about Coilover=good and expensive
You are right(imo) aobut Springs=cheap and bad
You are right about not caring and using springs.
You are CLOSE with getting coilovers for AutoX, Bill Gates, ect.
If you had only said" if you want to autox, have more money than bill gates, want to reduce bottoming on the street and track, and want the best riding/safest/longest lasting street and track setup, go with shortened coilovers" That would have just about hit the nail on the head.

96BlkSE-R,
If you are happy, then you are a rare case. If your setup suits your driving.. cool, thats good. I just dont want these members to think that they are gonna get AWSOME performance out of springs and stock leangth dampers. They wont even be close, and they will have wasted money if that is what they were shooting for. Not to flame you in anyway, shape, or form, but if you do a DET swap dont you think that you will then be overwhelming your suspension(through increased speeds, ect). Thats why suspension is TOP priority for my car now. I would rather have it TOTALY prepared for any hp level and speed that it may one day see. Better safe then sorry.

"Lowering springs are for looks.
Coilovers are for life"


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

*Re: AutoX and suspension*



CarbonBlack200 said:


> *
> 
> Excellent idea. I was thinking about the same thing (taking front STB off). By the way, I had a thread about AutoX handling discussion. Let me give you a link. You'll see a same o Goldmember face there.
> http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1841
> I should play more with tire pressure too. And I don't have rear sway bar either. *


Yeah, seriously, give the front STB a shot. I have nice S-curves by my parents' house and it made a significant difference when 'testing' Despite what some said in the other thread you posted, it'll make a difference! Tire pressures are all hit/miss so I won't bore you with what I've found success with... plus, autox is much different from road race


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *Dont get me wrong its a good thing we are doing(trying to help), but if some wont listen what is the point? Why repeat the same things over and over again? *


Repetition is good  If people hear the same thing over and over again, they'll eventually start to believe it. Therefore:

Send me $100 and I'll be your friend
Send me $100 and I'll be your friend
Send me $100 and I'll be your friend
Send me $100 and I'll be your friend
.......


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA said:


> *
> 
> Repetition is good  If people hear the same thing over and over again, they'll eventually start to believe it. Therefore:
> 
> ...


Thank you
Thank you 
Thank you.
I needed a little humor 
As for peeps starting to belive it... Thats why I am still here 


No lowering srings
No lowering srings
No lowering srings
No lowering srings

They are evil
They are evil
They are evil
They are evil


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *
> 
> Thank you
> Thank you
> ...


*

That's the only reason I'm here... humor. I don't know anything about cars... I'm just hear to entertain *


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA said:


> *
> 
> That's the only reason I'm here... humor. I don't know anything about cars... I'm just hear to entertain  *


BS  yeah ok hehe. Thanks for all of the help. 
This may be one of the best topics yet!


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

personal experience: i didn't bother cutting the bumpstops just to be safe, it destroyed itself to the proper length, i guess the way i drive, but those only happened for the fronts, not the rear, but yeah, the first few weeks were kinda rough.........


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *
> 
> I am not in any way arguing here, just curious. Why are the Prokits in one of your sugested setups if they are so horibble on the street? I know why they are so bad because of my experince with Sportlines(Prokits cant be much better). I think the other members would like to get your feedback on this. *


Note Budjet!


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> Note Budjet! *


Thank You,
So in your opinion, what are the limits of a lowering spring set-up?
Wait, dont anwer that(you have already elswhere). Could you anwser us(them?) this instead? What is the lowest cost, safe street only setup for someone who drives "average" and only wants to go low for looks? Maybe your answer to this would be more helpfull than me(and a few others) telling everone that they should not use lowering springs becase they(currently) are a "joke".


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *
> 
> Thank You,
> So in your opinion, what are the limits of a lowering spring set-up?
> Wait, dont anwer that(you have already elswhere). Could you anwser us(them?) this instead? What is the lowest cost, safe street only setup for someone who drives "average" and only wants to go low for looks? Maybe your answer to this would be more helpfull than me(and a few others) telling everone that they should not use lowering springs becase they(currently) are a "joke". *


I anserwed this in this string somewhere. Although they are sort of good for looks and riding around on the street, they are a joke for serious performance use.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

is there even a complete compromise for performance and everyday driving????and don't forget looks?? or just get a sportscar from the get go, a better rock to mold, a better project, a better base to start from........


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> I anserwed this in this string somewhere. Although they are sort of good for looks and riding around on the street, they are a joke for serious performance use. *


Sorry for my deveant(sp) ways, but you answered my question EXACTLY the way I wanted you to. Thank you for making this point again. 

So how many votes against lowering springs do we have now???
I see a new trend starting in the thread.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> I anserwed this in this string somewhere. Although they are sort of good for looks and riding around on the street, they are a joke for serious performance use. *


I won't argue that, or 99XE's statement either. The more I do to my car, the more I realize that this is a vicious circle. More power=more speed=more suspension=more braking, etc. etc. etc.

But for my current power level (mostly bolt-ons), the Eibach/AGX setup is holding up quite well. If I had an extra $300 when I did my suspension, I would have probably gone for GC coil-overs. But, for now, the setup is the best that I can afford. I do feed/clothe/house a wife and a kid. And, I'm finishing up college for the second time, but that is another story...

Plus, since my car wouldn't know a track if it saw one, and my car is damn fun on the streets and still kinda comfy on the highway, then still feel good about my efforts - evil or not.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

Oops - and I forgot to mention this:

For you people who have only been driving for a few years (under 7, let's say), I would NOT recommend lowering a car at all, let alone using the system I have chosen. OK, I'm in the pulpit now, so please bear with me.

Lowering a car for street use can be dangerous on a number of levels, as the masters here have alluded. First, bumpsteer, the BIG evil, is very unpredictable. One minute hanging in the curve, next minute off in a ditch. Second, too much drop is worse than a jacked-up looking ride. Bouncing around, eating tires, wearing out the steering system - all by-products of the 'rice' look.

I think what scares me most is the confidence riding low gives someone who may or may not know when they are pushing too hard. I know through my driving experience when my car is about to let go. Kids, if you will pardon that word, will jump into a fairly fast car, drive the hell out of it, and find the nearest immovable object to wrap it around.

I'm not necessarily advocating my system, but with proper usage it will work for someone with a limited budget. NOTE: PROPER USAGE....


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

96BlkSE-R said:


> *
> 
> I won't argue that, or 99XE's statement either. The more I do to my car, the more I realize that this is a vicious circle. More power=more speed=more suspension=more braking, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> ...


Don't forget more power=the need for more brains! You really need to be careful with more power. It gets you into trouble faster!

If I knew what I know now when I was doing my suspension, I'd probably have done it different. Although I did consult Mike, I think a lot has changed in the past two years and a lot of new developments have come about. I'll be hopefully upgrading by this time next year with something better. 

For now, my car's been handling well and the ProKits/AGX's are doing remarkable (considering how horrible they are supposed to be) I can only imagine how much better I'd do with a 'real' suspension. I feel that my driving ability is (finally) to the point that I can't go faster with this suspension and I need to spend some more money to go faster. Oh well, that's the process... 

oh yeah, you forgot more power=more $$$ ;(


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

96BlkSE-R said:


> *I think what scares me most is the confidence riding low gives someone who may or may not know when they are pushing too hard. I know through my driving experience when my car is about to let go. *


Yes, that confidence is complete BS! I remember speaking with someone who thought that because their car was slammed to the ground, there wouldn't be a chance of the car flipping! All it'd take (at least on a track) is getting sideways and scrubbing a crack in the pavement or curb at the side of the track and over goes the car! It doesn't matter *HOW* low your car is in that situation.

As for me, I still have trouble with when the car's at the limit. I try not to push the car *THAT* hard on the street but, if I do, the street tires are there to screech and let me know when I'm close. As for race tires, it's very hard to tell. There's no warning... you're just suddenly faced with going in the wrong direction! I'm getting better though and think I know when I've got the tires at their limit of adhesion... and it's a fun feeling though! (but really hurts your ass the next day from all the ass-puckering)


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

02 ALMERA said:


> *
> 
> Don't forget more power=the need for more brains! You really need to be careful with more power. It gets you into trouble faster!
> 
> oh yeah, you forgot more power=more $$$ ;( *


AMEN!


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA and 96BlkSE-R,
Thanks for your words of wisdom. This is what this disscusion really needs, not just one or two us saying this stuff. Once people relize that its not just Evil Super Moderator Pat saying this stuff it will help inform them and make it more beliveable


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

azkicker0027 said:


> * or just get a sportscar from the get go, a better rock to mold, a better project, a better base to start from........ *



Thats what I plan on doing...minus the project part. I'm still in school, so I'm using this as a hobby until I have to face real life....or thats what I'm telling myself. I'm learning a lot from all you master tech's around here, and somehow from I first exchanged messages with Mike Kojima, I was dissappointed....he just always says everything in a couple of words.  After this, I want to be a regular guy just taking care of a car....not worrying about spring rates, and wheel weights. 

Now, back to business. Who wants to buy some pro-kits and agx for $150 even?  j/k I thank you guys for all the hammering of "springs are bad" into my brain, but oh well...I guess they'll have to do until I can afford a BMW.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

One more thing - I run a not-so-sticky all season performance tire, so the tire will be the first to let go. This might be one of the biggest factors as to why my suspension works for me.

There is no way I would let anyone who does know my car drive it at any great rate of speed. She can be a cantankerous little minx in the wrong hands...


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2002)

andre said:


> *<snip> and somehow from I first exchanged messages with Mike Kojima, I was dissappointed....he just always says everything in a couple of words.  After this, I want to be a regular guy just taking care of a car....not worrying about spring rates, and wheel weights.
> *


I know what you're saying... but Mike's a real busy guy. I've never heard how much but I could only *IMAGINE* the volume of e-mails he gets in a day. Everyone figures he's the guy to ask about everything... and he ultimately is. But there are so many other people who have soaked up some of his knowledge that they are really the people you should be asking. I'm not proclaiming to be one (I most certainly am not!) but this forum's a good place to be asking the questions and getting the answers. There are knowledgeable people that will help you out with what you need!


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

It's been a real good discussion. I am learning a lot form this and I do enjoy doing this. There are a lot of things I didn't know, and I am still learning things every day. 
Mike Kojima has been very helpful to our community and we do get lots of good idea/ information from him. But we all need to realize, we are all different and we have diferrent cars, set up, and driving style/conditions. So everything Mike says do not apply to your car. Some of you just drive your car to work and you might just want your car to handle well on freeway. Do those people really need serious coil over with stiff 300lbs springs? I don't think so. I think it is very important to be more flexible about what we hear from other people. Use people's idea for hint, then you are the one making your decision about what to do!


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

well this whole thread is talkin about how bad lowering springs are ...but one question..some people also have sprint lowering springs..are they the same or are they worse then eibach? IMO maybe worse cause of the 2"drop but im not sure.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *well this whole thread is talkin about how bad lowering springs are ...but one question..some people also have sprint lowering springs..are they the same or are they worse then eibach? IMO maybe worse cause of the 2"drop but im not sure. *


Yes, the drop is too much but I also *THINK* (I don't know a whole lot about sprint springs) they have softer spring rates as well.... possibly as soft if not softer than stock? I'm not positive though


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

softer springs give a better ride or a worse ride?...lol i know nothin about springs...im learnin.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *softer springs give a better ride or a worse ride?...lol i know nothin about springs...im learnin. *


It depends... if you want a better ride as in performance, you want a stiffer spring. Very generally, the stiffer the spring, the better the handling but the worse the ride feels to the driver over bumps and such (it'll be a harsh ride... thus why real race suspensions will never or should never see the street) The softer the spring, the worse the handling but the better the ride will feel to the driver. Take a cadillac for example... real cushy ride, real soft spring. They're practically riding on air. However, they don't handle very well. I drove a Cadillac the other day as a rental and went around a curve on a highway I wouldn't think twice about going around at 80MPH in my car. I almost lost control of the car! (PS, I think the springs bottomed out and that's why  Anyway, if you want a better ride as in performance, you'd want a stiffer spring. Optimally you'd want a stiff spring with shortened struts and *NOT* shortened spring - like cutting a coil. Spend the extra money and do it the right way if you're going to do it at all.

If you have any specific questions or want to know more, ask away or send me a PM and I'd be happy to help you. I NEED to go to bed now though for many, many reason


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA said:


> *
> 
> Yes, the drop is too much but I also *THINK* (I don't know a whole lot about sprint springs) they have softer spring rates as well.... possibly as soft if not softer than stock? I'm not positive though *


Those springs make the car too bouncey to even feel what kind of spring rates they are.


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## kristinspapi (Aug 29, 2002)

*spings and things that go "bumb" in the night*

Hello everyone in sentra land. I have a 99 gxe and put on HRS springs about 4 months ago and I guess I've been "bottoming out" since then. Yeah I 'd notice a cd skip with the factory system but even with an aftermarket "no skip" cd player, I skip over bumbs and such. My only car buddy near me is a friend at work with a Golf and a VW fetish so we bounce ideas around but I know my GXE is a completely different beast. I am looking for a solution. I agree that HP increases and such would come secondary to a good suspension and that would make the side street and highway ride to work more fun. I took forever before deciding on some 15x7 K1 rims and am now trying to find out how and how much money would be better spent for suspension. I've had these lowering springs about 4 months, do you think I've done anytning horrible to the suspension of my car yet. Let me know Obi-wan, yoda, or any of you other "ones with the force". The comments are truly interesting and helpful. Thanks.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

cd skipping doesnt mean your bottoming out....i have a "no skip" cd player and when I hit big bumps or potholes it sometimes skips but im not bottoming. 

as for what to improve your setup i'll leave that to the pros (let me warn you ahead of time they are going to say get coilovers and all springs suck)


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## motivational1 (Jul 15, 2002)

You can use Eibach Prokits or if you want to go lower use the Eibach Sportlines, then use shortened struts, Koni bumpstops and new rear mounts that give you back an inch of travel. You car can ride very well if done correctly.


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## lowridin23 (Jul 23, 2002)

Get some big rims with good tires, a kit, new agx's, two stutbars and the car will handle fine. Also it would look lower. Now we've spent too much time on this, everybody get back to work or go back to class.


Note: Everyone is right in here, depending on what they want(looks or performance). My set up works fine for me so I'm happy. Have a great 3 day weekend! Now shut the computer off.


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## Overlooked (Jul 10, 2002)

Are these wheels big enough and low enough for you!!!!!


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2002)

*Re: spings and things that go "bumb" in the night*



kristinspapi said:


> *Hello everyone in sentra land. I have a 99 gxe and put on HRS springs about 4 months ago and I guess I've been "bottoming out" since then. Yeah I 'd notice a cd skip with the factory system but even with an aftermarket "no skip" cd player, I skip over bumbs and such. *


As has already been stated, your cd player skipping doesn't necessarily mean you've been bottoming out. It doesn't, however, mean you haven't been



> *I've had these lowering springs about 4 months, do you think I've done anytning horrible to the suspension of my car yet. Let me know Obi-wan, yoda, or any of you other "ones with the force". The comments are truly interesting and helpful. Thanks. *


I was hoping someone else would answer your question (actually, someone else might have because I haven't read the rest of the responses) but I'm kind of unclear what you're asking. In terms of doing anything horrible, I really don't know much about HRS springs. Did you leave the stock struts on and just put HRS springs? If so, you'd probably want to get aftermarket struts as well to handle the springs (I assume they're stiffer springs than stock) otherwise you'll blow your struts more quickly. If you really want something nice (at a cost though as with everything else in life) go with coilovers (as has also already been mentioned)


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2002)

The b14 is just pluaged buy the gap problem.... I saw somewhere that if you use sportlines on the front and pro kit on the rear it will settle the fender gap problem.. What ever you do don't cut your springs... Evan if you get the hight right it is almost impossible to correctly align your car.. The sportline eibachs might leave the fender gap on the car but if you look at your side of the car it does sit level. I say either go get coilover or live with the gap... If you chose to miss match your springs is one thing but cutting springs should be out of the question...


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## lowridin23 (Jul 23, 2002)

Overlooked said:


> *Are these wheels big enough and low enough for you!!!!!
> HELL YEAH! I likes!
> 
> 
> ...


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

CarbonBlack200 said:


> *Do those people really need serious coil over with stiff 300lbs springs? I don't think so. I think it is very important to be more flexible about what we hear from other people. Use people's idea for hint, then you are the one making your decision about what to do!  *


I think 300/200 lb springs actualy ride better on a standard length strut than regular lowering springs because it keeps the car from bottoming as much. Every single person who did not belive me at first said that it did ride better after switching.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

*My point*



morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> I think 300/200 lb springs actualy ride better on a standard length strut than regular lowering springs because it keeps the car from bottoming as much. Every single person who did not belive me at first said that it did ride better after switching. *


I do not disagree with this. I think you are very right about this, and I know I am going to like this set up if I had on my car. (I actually want this set up if I can get new set of suspension on my car) But my point was (mentioned on my original post) since everybody has their own driving style, different road conditions, I was not sure if they will all like this set up. I meant to give these people some sort of "idea", if that is the only way to go or not. Some people might have more than one car to drive around so they can do what they want , or some people have only one car and some are even shareing a car with their wifes. So I guess this explains what my point was. And please note, I am not trying to push this idea. It's just my opinion and everything I say is not right either.

Stock length struts with softer aftermarket lowering springs will make the suspension bottom out more often. Softer springs may ride well until suspension bottoms out, but if stiffer springs helps to reduce chance of bottoming, maybe that is better. If we had perfect road, we didn't even have to discuss about this.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

Another thing to think about sacrificing is your health. If you get some serious stiff springs just so you stop bottoming then think about the extra impact your body is getting from the extra stiff ride. Sure it may not effect you in a few months or weeks but think about the long term.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Neil said:


> *Another thing to think about sacrificing is your health. If you get some serious stiff springs just so you stop bottoming then think about the extra impact your body is getting from the extra stiff ride. Sure it may not effect you in a few months or weeks but think about the long term. *


Its just that no one belives that stiffer springs can posibly ride smoother!

AGX G/C's' with 300/200 rates will ride better than the same shocks with Pro-kits as long as the car is not slammed to the ground.

Ask Mike Young or others that have gone from one to the other. The only disadvantage that the GC's have is that they tend to be noiser much of which can be fixed by proper installation.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Ask Mike Young or others that have gone from one to the other. The only disadvantage that the GC's have is that they tend to be noiser much of which can be fixed by proper installation. *


Mike, will you come out and install my suspension when I upgrade?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sure just bring it down!


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> Its just that no one belives that stiffer springs can posibly ride smoother!
> 
> ...



when you speak of ground controls do you mean the joe shmoe ones that normal people can afford or those really expensive ones that they offer?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *
> 
> 
> when you speak of ground controls do you mean the joe shmoe ones that normal people can afford or those really expensive ones that they offer? *


I belive he is talking about the "joe shome" one. See how he mentioned AGX's. "joe shome" ones work with stock/aftermarket dampers(shocks/struts). The other ones, are dampers(threaded).


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2002)

*A settlement!!!*

Damn it. I bought some eibach sportlines. then today I'm reading this and saying. SHIT!!!! F&^K!!!! and every other explictive words that you can imagine. Now I want performance and safety as best as I can with these springs. What struts and other stuff should I get. Remember I ain't Bill Gates, so money is a semi-issue. >=/


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2002)

*Re: A settlement!!!*



GOGO47 said:


> *Damn it. I bought some eibach sportlines. then today I'm reading this and saying. SHIT!!!! F&^K!!!! and every other explictive words that you can imagine. Now I want performance and safety as best as I can with these springs. What struts and other stuff should I get. Remember I ain't Bill Gates, so money is a semi-issue. >=/ *


If you just got them, you SHOULD be able to return them and get some ProKits. They're better but not by much. Sportlines still work but you should get the motivational plates and bumpstops. That'll at LEAST make your mistake better. I've dealt with ProKits for two years now without many major problems now. Now that you have those springs though, there's not a whole lot you can do. For struts (if you were planning on using stock struts) you can get AGX's. Stock struts will still work but won't last as long since they're not valved to accept the stiffer springs. *MIGHT* be more workable but that's kind of speaking out of my a** Someone who's got stock struts with aftermarket springs could tell you better. My suspicion is though that the sportlines are too low for the stock struts to work fairly well


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

in other words to shorten up what he just said...install the ones you have now and save up awhile to buy the agx's so you wont keep those springs on too long with the stock struts. right almera?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *in other words to shorten up what he just said...install the ones you have now and save up awhile to buy the agx's so you wont keep those springs on too long with the stock struts. right almera? *


sort of... his best bet would still be to get ProKits. But yes, he could deal with sportlines on stock struts till he could afford AGXs. The sportlines will still bottom out more than ProKits though


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## kristinspapi (Aug 29, 2002)

*GC coilovers vs. just springs*

Evening all. I continue to try and solve the suspension setup plan and have come to this: For our b14 it seems one needs shotened struts (kyb agx), bumpstops(koni), rear mounts(I hear Motivantional E makes a great item  ). Those items appear failry mandatory and the issue becomes what rate eibach springs to get or to go with Ground control coilovers. The price difference between the springs and coilovers seems to be about $180 bucks. Is that the deal? If so, with all the talk it seems to warrant me waiting to save the extra couple hundred to have the functionality and ride I want ( we want ?  ) In terms of struts, is it appropriate or advantageous to obtain B13 front struts and a B14 rear set . What's the difference?


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

with the GC's is it true that every time you adjust the height you have to have your car realigned because the camber / toe etc will change?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *with the GC's is it true that every time you adjust the height you have to have your car realigned because the camber / toe etc will change? *


I wont say that you car will have to be realigned(cuz it depends), but I will say that any time you cange the height your alignment will change. It all depends on how far you move it, and what you will tollerate for alignment specs.


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

now if i have to buy b13 front struts to even out the car...what struts do I buy....Oem?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

selrider99 said:


> *now if i have to buy b13 front struts to even out the car...what struts do I buy....Oem? *


This has been answered elsewhere in this tread, but I give you the answer. If you are not running OEM springs, you should not run OEM struts becasue they will not be able to handle the stiffer rates. Right now AGX's are probalby the best way to go if you are running aftermarket springs. I am not 100% sure how the B13 struts will affect ride height, we have been talking about them when used with GC coilovers because the body is shorter and that gives you more travel. I am not sure how B13 and B14 spring perches compare. You should ask someone who has them.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

The B13 struts dont affect ride height...just suspension travel. It was discussed elsewhere.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

this isnt a b13 thread


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

wait nevermind..im an idiot


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *this isnt a b13 thread *


Yeah, but certain parts are interchangable. I'm not really sure about the B13 vs. B14 spring perches, so I'll just keep quiet about that...


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## dookie (May 21, 2002)

*found some cheap GC coilovers*

I just found some GC coilovers and AGX strurs on a totaled 98 sentra. I found the car at a junkyard. Next weekend I'll pull them off of the car to see if they were damaged. I know the front driver wheel has a broken axle and is therefore bent badly. The hood is crumpled up to the wheels. Do you guys think that the coilovers and struts are salvagable? What would give first, the strut or the strut tower/frame of the car?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2002)

I would almost bet that the front suspension is trashed from what you have described.

If the front was crumpled up to the wheels, and the axles is bent/broken on one side, then the strut on that side is probably 98% surely hosed.

I'd hate to have been in that thing when the wreck happened...


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## Mervic (May 1, 2002)

If you guys are saying that aftermarket springs(ie Prokits) are not a great improvement over stock springs, would changing other suspension components(ES bushings, bigger anti-roll bars, strut bars, control arm brace) make it good enough for track/Auto-X?


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## LuvMyRide200sx (Aug 5, 2002)

Ok i here all of you saying you dont have enough money to get coilovers but how much is a set of lowering springs??? $100-$150????. Aerospeed has a set of coilovers that you CAN (im not saing its good to) lower up to 4 inches and my dealer is geting them for me for $189.99. Has anyone ever tride these??? GOOD??BAD???OK??????


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

The only coilovers i've ever heard anyone mention are ground controls. The lower end ground controls I think are like $350 which isnt too bad although those other ones ppl were talking about being like $1500 is rediculous.

I have no clue how good aerospeed is just reciting what i've heard.


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

*Arospeed Coilovers*

Arospeed uses very cheap parts, they use very soft springs so you will most likely have a very poor handiling car, and I even know someone who had the colar (the part that the spring sits on) on their Arospeed coilovers break and it droped straight to the bottom of the threaded body. He came very close to geting in a serious accident.


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

*Making our cars handle*

There are some major diffrences between the Eibach Sportline and Prokit. The sportline kit is designed more for style. They lower your car more. The prokit...now here is the important part...is a progressive rate kit. Progressive rate springs. These type of springs are designed to become stiffer as they are compressed more. In theory you should get better handling from progressive rate springs. Only aslong as you have good enough shocks to match them. 

After my 200sx was totaled out I was searching for a new car, and I found a 96 that was the same as mine but had more mods than I had done. So this peaked my intrest. One thing they did was lower the car with an Eibach pro kit on the OLD FACTORY STRUTS. Big mistake. This car was so scary to drive. I was only driving around town, not even above 45 mph. Every time I hit a bump, no mater what speed I was at the car would dive in that direction then pull really hard back in the oposite direction. I didn't even get more than a mile away and I turned around to take the car back to the dealer. Even my friend who was riding with me was amazed that we didn't get in to an accident.

If your looking for a full race set up or an expensive street set up, the full racing coilover set up is the way to go. My personal opinion (and what I plan to buy) is KYB AGX struts with GC Coilovers is the way to go.

Now those of you who are complaining about botoming out with the sleeve-coilovers, you might have to experiment with your shock and height setings. If you read in the build up that SCC has been doing they don't have any problems with botoming out. They also have upper and lower strut braces, better sway bars, and GASP....light weight wheels...these all make a big diffrence. 

As for those of you who have all of these things and don't want to take the time to adjust everything and still bottom out, the only other thing I can recomend is...well...let off the gas.

I'm just saying this in good fun, I'm not trying to step on any ones toes. There are difftent setups for diffrent drivers, this is just one mans opinion


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

So what about this setup...
- Ground Control Coilovers
- KYB AGX shocks

And if i get coilovers before the shocks..is that good to ride on till i make money for shocks...and with this setup what brand of struts are good? i have no idea what is good in a suspension to be honest but this is what i have come down to. Any other opinions to this setup would be appreciated. And ground controls are adjustable for the height right?


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

Running GCs without proper dampening support is like just putting lowering springs on your car with the stock struts (GC kits come with Eibach springs as it is). Both setups need stronger struts to support them. The GC sleeve has a big nut on the bottom that screws up and down to adjust ride height.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

For a B14, what would the best struts be to support the GC coilovers?


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

There's a lot of companies out there, but the one everyone seems to recommend time and time again for their excellent performance is the AGX shock and strut by KYB. The dampening can be adjusted for harder or softer rides, whichever suits your setup the best.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

Ok, in the future....ill purchase AGX shocks, GC coilovers and KYB struts....anything else i need to make my ride more suitable? safety, comfort?


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

strut bars for better cornering.


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## dookie (May 21, 2002)

*The GCs are good!!*

I bought the GC coilovers and AGX struts/shocks from that totaled Sentra in the junkyard. I figured i'll get at least a few good struts and coilovers out of the car, and just buy whatever was damaged, new. The guys at the junkyard thought they were stock until they pulled them out of the car. It was a good thing that I had paid for them already. They were a little pissed that they sold some perfectly fine GC coilovers and AGX struts for only $200. The only thing wrong was the mounting plate on the front strut, the one on the wheel with the broken axle. The mounting plate was bent, but I just used the one from my car. After putting in the GCs my car handles much better. By the way I have had front and rear STBs for a while now. All I need now are the Koni bumpstops, motivational rear mounts, and some sway bars. I can't beleive I got so lucky. Good luck guys paying around $600 for your GCs and AGXs.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

easy for you to say...lol...just kiddin dude, thats some pretty cool stuff and thanks to this thread i know how to hook up my suspension...i appreciate all the help.


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## freezing_frost (Aug 30, 2002)

I read up to page 8 and gave up because people just started pissing at each other... And things got confusing.

This is what I understood...

Page 8 info... Lowering a car, don't think you are god and take turns like you are in a Ferrari F50, cause you'll kill yourself.

Lowering springs, no matter how much more stuff you add to it they will bottom out which will actually reduce the control you have of your car. Bad idea even for daily street use, so don't go there. I got it.

Coilovers... You guys were confusing after page 3 and started rambling about the good and bad, so I lost track of the info.
Advance Design is from Ground Control, right?
I went to the Advance Design site, and they said it's something to go with the Ground Control kit... So I'm confused on what they are.

I don't plan to do any AutoX but I want to know that my car won't bounce because I turned to hard. So yea...

So if you guys don't mind probably telling this again... What is a good setup for smooth ride and better handling... Screw the looks if it's going to kill me. (Exaggerated) Looks do matter a little.

Oh yea, please define your opinion of a smooth ride. Mine is, not feel every little bump/crack in the road in my head.

Thanks


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Is is in this thread..I promise(somewhere). Lots of people like the GC/AGX 300/200 combo, just don't lower it that much.


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## motivational1 (Jul 15, 2002)

Freezing_Frost,
If you don't plan to autocross your car I would suggest that you use Eibach Sportline or Prokit springs depending on how low you want to go. The sportline springs are abot half an inch lower. From my experience the best riding set up would use our SHORTENED KONI front struts and KONI rear shocks. To solve the problem with the rear bottoming, we have a rear mount that will give you back almost all of the travel lost from lowering. You should also use the Koni polyfoam bumpstops. This set up will ride amazingly good. It is the best riding set up regardless of price without the noise from coil overs too!I hope this answered some questions.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

Aloha, it's me again. Yeah, after page 8, this thread started to get a little funny (maybe i was the one), so I stopped posting. But i'm back here for a minute. 

Coilover is NOT the only option. There are cheaper ways, but eventually, you will have to spend SOME extra money to get decent ride.

"Least Expensive" way is still the lowering springs. But just don't go too low. I would stick with Eibach Pro-Kit, H&R or B+G springs. They will lower your car about 1.5 inch. But, here comes the trick. Use Motivational Engineering rear upper mounts to regain 1" travel. Get a set of KYB AGX struts but with B13 front struts. That will give you 1" front extra travel. Motivational also has "shortened struts" for more option if you can spend a little more. And use Koni bump stops. This set up will give you least negative effect of lowering the car.

If you can spend even more $$$, go with Coilover set up. Going this set up doesn't mean you can lower the car 2". You could, but ride will be just as crappy as others. Good thing about coilover set up is to improve the handling without lowering the car (losing travel). If you lower too much, it is going to be the same thing.
There will be more option. Tein is making coilover for B14. They are suppose to be very good. I would like to test them (or even buy them if I like them) when they come out.

Oups.. I didn't see Mike Saiki posted on top of me... Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about...


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## JayL1967 (Apr 30, 2002)

My suspension set-up:
KYB-AGX
Eibach Pro-Kit
Raer upper mounts
Koni bump stops
I already got 1 year with this suspensio set-up and no complaint.
Just one more thing my sentra is my daily drive, my family car, etc


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## freezing_frost (Aug 30, 2002)

I'm very confused now... I spent about 1-2hrs reading 8 pages of people saying no to the Prokit... And now 2.5/4 people recomended the Prokit... So, for regular street driving it's ok?

Would it be fine if I needed a lot of response from my car for something like... Some loser SUV driver cuts me off and if I don't swerve I'll have to replace my front fender and front bumper... If that happens, will my car "bottom" out? And if the car bottoms, what would happen (worst case scenerio)? this happens a lot to me so I'm concerned about it.


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## CarbonBlack200 (Apr 30, 2002)

freezing_frost said:


> *I'm very confused now... I spent about 1-2hrs reading 8 pages of people saying no to the Prokit... And now 2.5/4 people recomended the Prokit... So, for regular street driving it's ok?
> 
> Would it be fine if I needed a lot of response from my car for something like... Some loser SUV driver cuts me off and if I don't swerve I'll have to replace my front fender and front bumper... If that happens, will my car "bottom" out? And if the car bottoms, what would happen (worst case scenerio)? this happens a lot to me so I'm concerned about it. *


You have a very good point. Most people in this forum don't even think enough about safety. With most lowering spring set up, you will bottom out during the emergency handling. Worst case scenario, you could wreck your car because of the unwanted understeer. Excess oversteer is very dangerous also.

But think this way. Stock suspension with stock height could be worse in this case. I have had a big truck in front of me dropped something big when I was going 75mph at night. I was able to avoid even without wakeing up a passenger. I had similar thing happened when I had stock suspension, and I spun my car and I was only going 55mph at that time.

I think the set up I listed above will perform extremely well on freeway driving. I've driven cars with dropped springs only also and I could feel a obvious difference.

If you wanna experience all of this, I would suggetst you to try AutoXing once.

I'm sorry if I made you confuse again.


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## freezing_frost (Aug 30, 2002)

No no, I understand. Proper aftermarket parts are better then the stock parts.

But you forgot to answer one thing...

Are the Eibach Prokit w/ other mods enough for that emergency steering?

Or would I need the ?way better? GC coil over?


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## motivational1 (Jul 15, 2002)

The Prokits will be fine. They will be noticeably better than stock. You could also put Energy Suspension bushings and some sway bars for both performance and handling issues. Just the lower center of gravity alone will help greatly.


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## kristinspapi (Aug 29, 2002)

*energy suspension bushings*

I know the motivational mounts will add rear travel and the koni bumpstops are important. What do the energy suspension bushings do? Before I install anything new, I wanna make sure I don't have to repeat soon. For that matter, what exactly do the koni bumpstops do? If the bushing are valuable, I might wanna get them too. I won't be racing but we all like quality parts that give long life, easier on the pockets in the long run...Pablo


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

*Re: energy suspension bushings*



kristinspapi said:


> *I know the motivational mounts will add rear travel and the koni bumpstops are important. What do the energy suspension bushings do? Before I install anything new, I wanna make sure I don't have to repeat soon. For that matter, what exactly do the koni bumpstops do? If the bushing are valuable, I might wanna get them too. I won't be racing but we all like quality parts that give long life, easier on the pockets in the long run...Pablo *


The ES bushings tighten things up. This reduces geometry changes under load. ie alignment change due to lateral loads on stock rubber bushings. This make the car more resonsive and consitant. You will however have more "road noise" transmited to you, but hey it make you feel like you have a race car 

The Koni bumpstops are progresive foam. Makes bottoming more pleasant(if there is such a thing). This means your spring rate isnt as quick to go infanite(thats the affect of bottoming) causing "weird things happening quicker than you can crap your pants" or simply loss of control in some cases.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

JayL1967 said:


> *My suspension set-up:
> KYB-AGX
> Eibach Pro-Kit
> Raer upper mounts
> ...


Thats everything I got.  I'm gonna install next weekend...I'll let you all know how it goes....damn....forgot that I will have to re-align too.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2002)

freezing_frost said:


> *I'm very confused now... I spent about 1-2hrs reading 8 pages of people saying no to the Prokit... And now 2.5/4 people recomended the Prokit... So, for regular street driving it's ok?
> 
> Would it be fine if I needed a lot of response from my car for something like... Some loser SUV driver cuts me off and if I don't swerve I'll have to replace my front fender and front bumper... If that happens, will my car "bottom" out? And if the car bottoms, what would happen (worst case scenerio)? this happens a lot to me so I'm concerned about it. *


You see... you stepped into a can of worms. As you can see (by the first 10 pages or so of this thread and from the last few posts to the thread since you re-asked the same question originally asked) *EVERYONE* has an opinion and just about *EVERYONE* has a different opinion. So it's a rhetorical question. You'll hear different opinions from different people. It's up to you to take all of those people's opinions and make an educated decision. For street driving, AGX/ProKits are ok. They'll work and you shouldn't have any problems with bottoming out (unless you're an idiot and decide to really push the car around a bumpy turn... then you'll have a problem) In terms of your scenario with an SUV, there are *WAY* too many variables. You could be fine, you could have a problem. Chances are you'll be fine. It has more to do with reflexes than it does your car's handling.

Incidentally my AGX/ProKits ride rough on the street and don't handle all *THAT* great (I'm not terribly happy with them lately) but they can really whoop on some 'faster' cars on the track. Also, since removing the back seat, I can *HEAR* the rear struts bottoming a lot more. Boy do they bottom out a *LOT*!!!


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

In the last few post I have seen you guys posting about taking in all of this info and making your own desicion. Damn right! Just because I hate the idea of lowering springs on standard leangth struts does not mean that you have to run shortened strut coilovers. I am not god, and dont intend to be. Those comming into this thread lately should relize the the desicion is utimately yours. After reading this(and other sources) you should be well armed to make your desision.


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## freezing_frost (Aug 30, 2002)

Yea, everything in the world is subjective...

But you have to admit, if a lot of people experience something such as with the prokit bottoming out, then it would be likely if I got them the same would happen. So opinions are good, depending how you want to take them.

Anyhow, need more info please...

The B13 struts only lower the front end as I read from another thread... And does nothing for the travel.

http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5093&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

And how much will sway bars help with the bottoming out issue?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

freezing_frost,

Like I just posted in the thread you linked to, the only way the b13 struts will benifit travel is to use them with coilovers. Its a waste of time to use them any other way.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2002)

freezing_frost said:


> *Yea, everything in the world is subjective...
> 
> But you have to admit, if a lot of people experience something such as with the prokit bottoming out, then it would be likely if I got them the same would happen. So opinions are good, depending how you want to take them.
> 
> ...


FACT: the ProKits will bottom out with whoever buys them. 

OPINION: do you want to deal with the bottoming out and spend less money? Do you want to spend lots of money and have an incredible suspension that you use on the street-only? It's a decision *YOU* have to make. I made a decision two years ago and it got me this far. I'm ready to step it up to the next level now

The B13 struts will supposedly (I'm not so convinced somehow!) give you an extra inch of travel. It doesn't lower the front end; the springs do that. It'll give you that extra inch of travel you'd like

As for the sway bars, they have nothing to do with bottoming out. Bottoming has to do with the length of your strut (stock usually) versus the spring rate. With shortened struts, you typically won't bottom out. With stock size struts and softer springs (ProKits and Sportlines) you will. Swaybars (correct me if I'm wrong someone) define the body roll of the car (or lack thereof)


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

02 ALMERA said:


> *FACT: the ProKits will bottom out with whoever buys them.
> 
> OPINION: do you want to deal with the bottoming out and spend less money? Do you want to spend lots of money and have an incredible suspension that you use on the street-only? It's a decision *YOU* have to make. I made a decision two years ago and it got me this far. I'm ready to step it up to the next level now
> 
> ...



Your fact: correct

Your opinion: correct

B13 Struts: This is how they give you travel, and again it ONLY works when you use them WITH coilovers. The B13 strut is shorter, but it will bolt up to a B14. Say you want to drop 2". If you use stock B14 struts and lowering springs you will loose 2" of travel. What you do with the B13 strut with coilover is adjust to the 2" drop. Since the strut is shorter by X amount you gain X amount of travel. Its hard to explain, ill try to think of something better.


Swaybars: To a small degree they will help reduce bottoming. Sway bars effectively raise your spring rate in when cornering. This is how it helps reduce bottoming. How much a difference I can not tell you. You are correct that the bars *help* "define" body roll. The body roll is one cause of the bottoming. The bars reduce the roll, which in turn reduces bottoming.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Quick and dirty representation of how B13 Struts give you travel.


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

You should go into the factory service manual illustration business. Good work, Picasso.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

i second that.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Arrg, what have I gone and done now?


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

is that to scale?


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## UnderDog (Jul 14, 2002)

Yeah, if your car is 12 inches long.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

UnderDog said:


> *Yeah, if your car is 12 inches long. *


im talking about in comparison to each other, not to a real car.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Neil said:


> *is that to scale? *


No it is not to scale. I dont have both struts to measure. It is only a representaion of how using the B13 struts will give you travel.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

I'm no tech guy, and I dont know jack, but here's what I understand from your pic. I know it isn't exactly to scale, but why should it matter if you have coilovers or not if the skinny part of the strut is longer anyway? I mean, when the car bottoms, it goes down to the main strut body, right? So why would it make a difference if you have coils or springs? Also, in your drawing you represent the mounting points at a similar position also.

EDIT
 OOPs...i just realized one more thing, I'll pose it as a question. It all has to do with the spring seat, doesnt it?

This is my third edit  I totally understand now.
What you're saying is, because the b13 spring seat is lower, it negates the extra travel gained by using them. Therefore, the only way to regain the travel is to use the coilover adjusted to the height where the original b14 spring seat would be, thus making use of the extra travel.
Thanks, I feel better now.  Sorry for the length. I just had to let everyone know my thoughts.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

What I don't get is why companies don't just use ones with a lot of travel to begin with. 

Also I don't understand why companies give cars a lifted look. I'm sure they can create lower looking but great riding cars but just building a car with more travel shocks/struts and with high quality slightly lowered springs for same cost as equipment they put in now. 

Look at cars like audi's and some VW's. If i am correct they use eibach springs stock but even if they do not they do not have the incredible wheel gap our cars have. Of course this also happens with more expensive cars too like BMW's Mercedes but thats different league.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

Thats one reason why I love Audis. If I had a choice, I'd take one tonight.  Sexy pieces of machinery. LOL


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

So,
What other manufacturers run is irrelevant. Most cadillacs come with enkei wheels stock. Eiback is a spring manufacturer, so they sell ho hum street springs, as well as race springs.

Anyway, that isn't what I wanted to add. This whole thing started about not making your car have an uneven lowering look. It was stated that this is due to body design, not chassis design. It was also stated that overseas the body design was corrected. So, why not just import the fenders off a 'corrected' Sunny/Lucino. It is cheaper than coilovers I'm sure.

For the autocrossers with understeer, yes you can stiffen up your rear suspension. Or loosen your front suspension, or add more weight to the front, or use less grippy tires in the rear.

Finally, a question on shock stifness and spring stiffnes. A stiffer spring needs a stiffer shock because there is more energy to harness. Is this a constant. Meaning, factory ride being the 'control group'. If you get a shock double the stiffness and a spring with double the 'force' is the ride essentially the same. (short of things on the compression stroke. since now the shock is physically hard to compress)
Meaning, If i want a stiff spring so my car won't bottom, do I just use a stiff setting on my shocks to control the super stiff spring. This way rebound is relatively 'identical' to the factory setting. (I know hitting a bump will be 'harder'.)

Seth


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## Naemus (Oct 28, 2002)

*keeping it simple...are agx+eibach better than stock? yes or no??*

okay, I read as much as I could find here and other places. Unfortunately noone in this part of the world gets into heavy modification on Sentras so I depend alot on what I get from folks such as yourselves.

Like most I'm confused but do understand that it comes down to what each person wants.

My scenario is simple so maybe people who have bought the darned things can give some guidance...

would kyb's and eibach's give a worse ride and more problems than my current stock shocks, struts and springs...

in other words, would i bottom out or understeer more than stock???

Note, I'm not asking if the kyb's are good enough to do wrc rally stages (autocross or whatever) but if they would be a significant step up over the stock config.

Its a simple enough question I think


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

do u guys know how bad this setup would be?

1. dropzone 2 inch drop
2. b13 front kyb gr-2 shocks
3. b14 rear kyb agx struts
4. ES low profile bumpstops
plus i have 17 inch rims

and im not a hard driver and dont race, i need to reduce the bottoming out as much as possible, and i want to lower it that much because the 17" rims make the car look so high (looks nasty).


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

shmuck90 said:


> *do u guys know how bad this setup would be?
> 
> 1. dropzone 2 inch drop
> 2. b13 front kyb gr-2 shocks
> ...


If you car about handling, BAD.

Mike


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

If i get all agx shocks and struts all around will they handle the springs at least for a couple of years without blowing? yeh i know thats a bad setup but i changed my mind about getting gr2 shocks and i actually do care about performance but im on a budget thats why, thanks


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

shmuck90 said:


> *If i get all agx shocks and struts all around will they handle the springs at least for a couple of years without blowing? yeh i know thats a bad setup but i changed my mind about getting gr2 shocks and i actually do care about performance but im on a budget thats why, thanks *


Yeah my PM to you!

Mike


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## Teknokid (Jun 1, 2002)

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I have been enlightened and have been inspired to work harder to earn more money so i can get better choices. Although I wont be spending over $1000 on my suspension, I will try my best to get the best for that budget.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

yeh everyone has their own opinion, it just makes you more confused than you were from the beginning


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

shmuck90 said:


> *yeh everyone has their own opinion, it just makes you more confused than you were from the beginning *


Hmm, more confused. Then you should reread the thread. A lot of the "opinions" are not just opinions. There are comments from an engineer, ASE master tech, racers, and experimenters. All of the above pretty much agree that lowering springs suck on Sentras. There is no way to make a decent riding/handeling Sentra with off the shelf lowering springs alone. Personally, I will never buy another set of lowering springs. Not just becuase I want perfomance, but because the suck in terms of ride quality as well. 

Below is NOT opinion:
The Sentra has next to nothing for suspension travel due to design. The lack of travel is in the damper(shock/strut). There simply is a lack of stroke between the top of damper body and the bumpstop and mount. If you run lowering springs you are just making the problem worse. With the 1.9" drop that Eibach Sportlines give my car is almost(very close) riding on the bumpstop just sitting in the driveway and that is with 30mm shorter bumpstops. Its a give and take situation. If you take away travel with lowering springs you MUST give it some of it back. You can do it with aftermarket uppermounts. They give you a little, or you can do it with shortened dampers. The stock Sentra dampers are internaly not up to the challenge of stiffer/lower springs. The constant bottoming will ruin the vavleing inside causing the dampers to expire quickly. Also there is not enough damping to control the higher spring rate. This means the dampers can not keep the springs under control, causing a bouncy ride, this bouncy ride also contributes to the bottoming problem. You can try to "fix" these 2 problems with KYB AGXs or other stronger dampers, but its really just a "band-aid". The will initally give a better ride(less bouncy), but after a while bottoming will lead them to their death just like stockers. So what does that leave us with? Shortend dampers, either stock style shortened dampers with modified vavleing, built for lowering std. shape lowering springs Like the Prokits, Sportlines, ect. Motivational Eng. sells cut down stock style dampers for about $230.00 a piece. Thats about $950.00 then you still need to buy springs which run around $150-$200 a set. So all together your looking at about $1100.00. But why spend $1100.00 on Stock style struts and lowering springs when you can pick up a set of full blown shortend damper coilovers for a few bucks more. For example: The Tein SS kit has Single external adjust, threaded body dampers and they come with springs(rate choice as well). What the external adj means is that you can adjust how much damping force the is used to control the springs. From soft and almost bouncy to rock hard. Since they are coilovers you can adj the ride height and for you racers: corner weights. As I mentioned they are shortened body. When you take away travel by lowering them, you can "give" it back.

Back to opinion(from an ASE master tech mind you)

Full out shortend racing coilovers(Advance Design, ect.) are the best, but do you really need them? Probly not. They give you a lowered look, hella handeling, good ride(depending on spring rates), and the utmost in versatility, adjustibility and durability. They also come with a price.

Lower end shortened coilovers(Tein SS, Jic SF(?), are pretty good for most normal folk. They give you the lowered look, some adjustibily and versatility, decent ride and are pretty affordable.

Shortened stock dampers, *IMO* have no real use. Due to their cost and lack of decent stock style lowering springs choices. I dont see any real reason to get them(Sorry Mike S. not trying to "down" you).

GC coilovers with AGXs or other stock leangth struts may work alright when not lowered too much, but for the money you will have in the system its not wort it *IMO, even if you try the B13 front strut "trick" on a B14 its still not enough.

Lowering springs on stock leanth struts are a friggin joke. I dont care how you slice it.

I know alot of you just want to lower your car for looks. I too wanted that at first. Thats why I bought Sportlines. I have since seen the error of my ways and now I want my car to perfom as good as it looks. For those of you that just want the lowered look Im sorry to say it, but you have the wrong car. I dont care what "tricks" you try to gain back travel when using lowering springs and stock leanth struts. You will have a better looking car, but you will be sacrificing safety, handeling, ride quality, and durability. I know when you see a nicely setup car such as Mike K's(if I may use you for a min.) cars you say to your self " I wanna be like Mike. So so you run out and buy a set of springs, a spoiler, rims, tires, ect. Now your car looks like one of Mikes if you are lucky. What you dont relize is that on cars of that caliber form follows function. His car doesnt look nice becasue he wanted it to(well...) It looks nice becasue the effect that the FUNCTIONAL parts have on it. Its lower becuse he wanted a lower CG, not for looks. It has a spoiler, air dam, splitter, ect because he wanted down force, not for looks. It has rims and tires for grip, not for looks. The point is you try to emmulate high caliber Imports by making your car look like them. In reallity you turned a perfectly good gas sipping econo-box, not into a domestic killer/ weekend racer, but instead in to a heavy, wandering, eye-sore that in truth all of the owners of those high caliber cars (you were trying to copy) laugh at. Then to top it all off, when those guys try to help you out and give you advice you whine and complain that it costs too much. Well you could have taken that $200 you spent on springs, the $150 you spent on a wing, and the $800 you got into 17" heavy rims and cheap tires and went out and got a pretty nice suspension. I could go on for hours.

I dont want to hurt anyones feelings or put anyone down. That is not my intention. It is your money, spend it how you like and see fit. If you ask for advice and somebody more experenced than you give you some...listen. Dont complain, there is no need. You asked and recived you should be thankful that busy people(obvioulsly not me) take the time to help. Im not at all hating on all of you that want to get lowering springs. It just frustrates me that this thread is as long as it is. The more experenced "crew" came out early and said flat out that springs were a bad idea, and yet it continued. Questions like "why", "how", ect are all cool in my book and I will continue as will others to anwser those questions as many times as it takes. Thats not the problem. The problem is when those questions are answered, but it seems like nobody listens.

I may be way off base here, feel free to correct me, flame me, kick me, what ever you feel.  Its been a long week wrenchin' on GMCs, maybe I just need a beer.*


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *Hmm, more confused. Then you should reread the thread. A lot of the "opinions" are not just opinions. There are comments from an engineer, ASE master tech, racers, and experimenters. All of the above pretty much agree that lowering springs suck on Sentras. There is no way to make a decent riding/handeling Sentra with off the shelf lowering springs alone. Personally, I will never buy another set of lowering springs. Not just becuase I want perfomance, but because the suck in terms of ride quality as well.
> 
> Below is NOT opinion:
> The Sentra has next to nothing for suspension travel due to design. The lack of travel is in the damper(shock/strut). There simply is a lack of stroke between the top of damper body and the bumpstop and mount. If you run lowering springs you are just making the problem worse. With the 1.9" drop that Eibach Sportlines give my car is almost(very close) riding on the bumpstop just sitting in the driveway and that is with 30mm shorter bumpstops. Its a give and take situation. If you take away travel with lowering springs you MUST give it some of it back. You can do it with aftermarket uppermounts. They give you a little, or you can do it with shortened dampers. The stock Sentra dampers are internaly not up to the challenge of stiffer/lower springs. The constant bottoming will ruin the vavleing inside causing the dampers to expire quickly. Also there is not enough damping to control the higher spring rate. This means the dampers can not keep the springs under control, causing a bouncy ride, this bouncy ride also contributes to the bottoming problem. You can try to "fix" these 2 problems with KYB AGXs or other stronger dampers, but its really just a "band-aid". The will initally give a better ride(less bouncy), but after a while bottoming will lead them to their death just like stockers. So what does that leave us with? Shortend dampers, either stock style shortened dampers with modified vavleing, built for lowering std. shape lowering springs Like the Prokits, Sportlines, ect. Motivational Eng. sells cut down stock style dampers for about $230.00 a piece. Thats about $950.00 then you still need to buy springs which run around $150-$200 a set. So all together your looking at about $1100.00. But why spend $1100.00 on Stock style struts and lowering springs when you can pick up a set of full blown shortend damper coilovers for a few bucks more. For example: The Tein SS kit has Single external adjust, threaded body dampers and they come with springs(rate choice as well). What the external adj means is that you can adjust how much damping force the is used to control the springs. From soft and almost bouncy to rock hard. Since they are coilovers you can adj the ride height and for you racers: corner weights. As I mentioned they are shortened body. When you take away travel by lowering them, you can "give" it back.
> ...


* 

What he said!*


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

> I know when you see a nicely setup car such as Mike K's(if I may use you for a min.) cars you say to your self " I wanna be like Mike. So so you run out and buy a set of springs, a spoiler, rims, tires, ect. Now your car looks like one of Mikes if you are lucky. What you dont relize is that on cars of that caliber form follows function. His car doesnt look nice becasue he wanted it to(well...) It looks nice becasue the effect that the FUNCTIONAL parts have on it. Its lower becuse he wanted a lower CG, not for looks. It has a spoiler, air dam, splitter, ect because he wanted down force, not for looks. It has rims and tires for grip, not for looks. The point is you try to emmulate high caliber Imports by making your car look like them. In reallity you turned a perfectly good gas sipping econo-box, not into a domestic killer/ weekend racer, but instead in to a heavy, wandering, eye-sore that in truth all of the owners of those high caliber cars (you were trying to copy) laugh at. Then to top it all off, when those guys try to help you out and give you advice you whine and complain that it costs too much. Well you could have taken that $200 you spent on springs, the $150 you spent on a wing, and the $800 you got into 17" heavy rims and cheap tires and went out and got a pretty nice suspension. I could go on for hours.


Why are you saying this or implying like this what i wanted to do or tried or copied, all above has nothing to do with me. You only talked to me 2 to 3 times. and no i didnt try to copy Mike, i wanted to lower my car before i even knew who the hell he was. yeh it is too expensive but i didnt whine about it.

You tell me reread the 200 posts over? i did that twice and its not that easy to do without getting a headache after the 50th post.Try reading for a while and youll see what i mean, especially because im new in the nissan world and even cars (this was my first car too) i already knew everything u said right now, i didnt tell u to rexplain and waste ur time on my dumbass, i already understood everything after i gladly PMed u and mike after reading this post the first time and thankfully u guys replied and enlightened me. So please dont accuse anyone for being cheap or trying to make their car look good or copying someone, all the above u said does not apply to me. I rather maintain my car with good products (spark plugs, cap, rotor, oil, gas etc..), good reliable tires, and not buying a spoiler, then use that money than buying GC coilovers that i dont even need or shortened struts that alone cost 1000, thats why i be careful on the money, what if something broke down in my car and i dont have money to repair it because of the 1400 bucks i spent for suspension and still paying as payments. I hope i made sense what i said, im kinda writing this in a hurry, because i gtg. Thanks again pat for ur advice. no hard feelings  later


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

shmuck90 said:


> *Why are you saying this or implying like this what i wanted to do or tried or copied, all above has nothing to do with me. You only talked to me 2 to 3 times. and no i didnt try to copy Mike, i wanted to lower my car before i even knew who the hell he was. yeh it is too expensive but i didnt whine about it.
> 
> You tell me reread the 200 posts over? i did that twice and its not that easy to do without getting a headache after the 50th post.Try reading for a while and youll see what i mean, especially because im new in the nissan world and even cars (this was my first car too) i already knew everything u said right now, i didnt tell u to rexplain and waste ur time on my dumbass, i already understood everything after i gladly PMed u and mike after reading this post the first time and thankfully u guys replied and enlightened me. So please dont accuse anyone for being cheap or trying to make their car look good or copying someone, all the above u said does not apply to me. I rather maintain my car with good products (spark plugs, cap, rotor, oil, gas etc..), good reliable tires, and not buying a spoiler, then use that money than buying GC coilovers that i dont even need or shortened struts that alone cost 1000, thats why i be careful on the money, what if something broke down in my car and i dont have money to repair it because of the 1400 bucks i spent for suspension and still paying as payments. I hope i made sense what i said, im kinda writing this in a hurry, because i gtg. Thanks again pat for ur advice. no hard feelings  later *


Ahh, I dont want this turn into a poop fling.
In your case shmuck90, you are not one of those I was describing there. You asked the questions you needed to, got your answers and were thankful. Thats cool! If you would rather spend your money on tune up stuff, thats great, your car will thank you. I wish I could do that(Hmm tune up does sound good). You went about it the right way. I have no problems and even like helping peeps like you out. In no way did I intend to single you out. You were the furthest from my mind when I posted that last part. Im just sorry I laid all that down after you posted on this thread and started off quoting you.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

I did forget one thing to you shmuck90, when you said

"You tell me reread the 200 posts over? i did that twice and its not that easy to do without getting a headache after the 50th post.Try reading for a while and youll see what i mean"

If you only knew how much time I put into this thread and all of the reaserch that gave me the knowlage to put down, you wouldnt have a headache. It would explode. LOL  j/k I know what you mean, trust me


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

None takin, i told you and mike are the only ones that helped me out and you actually made me change my mind about not buying stuff that will expire the next day, even though i dont have that much money its gonna take me along time to save up for some agx, bumpstops (68 bucks yeh right), and maybe mounts (even though i feel ppl try to advertise for GC and motivational), and later sway bars. 

My old setup was gonna be:

gr2 shocks
cut the bumpstops

Hadi


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

I once had a gr-2 set up. Then my head began to hurt from hitting it on the roof of my car. I had them for a year and they never blew out. I also was running hp shit coilovers. 

Once I got sick of the ride I went to the TEIN system, these things are F*#@ing great!!!!!!!!


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

sentragtr20,
Did you get the SS kit?


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## kev (Dec 2, 2002)

This post has been VERY informative. I need to replace the front dampers on my wife's 200sx se-r because they're blown. 

My first instinct was to get the kyb agx's, motivational rear upper mounts, and the eibach pro-kit. Luckily a friend told me to research the hell out of the stock/aftermarket spring rates. Thankfully, that led me to this thread. 

Based on what I've read...I've decided against the eibachs or any lowering springs for that matter. If I want my suspension to bottom out, I can just leave my car the way it is now  

I thought about the $399 ground control coilovers, but I can't handle the noise they may make. Don't want my wife to be paranoid over any weird sounds that people say they may make.

The AD coilover is just way way way over what I can spend now. $2,500 OUCH  

Because I need to replace my dampers ASAP, I've decided not to lower my b14. Instead I'm just going to replace the dampers.

*My question is, should I replace my blown front dampers with new ones from the dealer? Or is there any other aftermarket b14 damper that will increase performance with the use of stock springs? * (if that's the case I'd do front and rear)

Thanks again.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

and that is KYB GR-2s with stock springs, a little stiffer which leads to better handling.


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## kev (Dec 2, 2002)

Ok...I changed my mind.

I'm going with the GC coil over sleeve kit, kyb agx's, and rear upper mounts.

I plan on only dropping it 1". I'm going to get spring rates of 300F/250R. I want the rears a little higher for autoX.

Anybody have any thoughts on my setup? I plan on ordering stuff tomorrow.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

good setup, i would of done that but cant afford it, too much money for just suspension


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## tosainu1 (Aug 15, 2002)

I have the Gc 300/200 combo with agx's in the rear and non agx's in the front and the car makes a clunking noise i can't stand....I wish i never bought anything and just kept the car stock...actually, i wish i never bought the car in the first place, and instead bought that sexy lil red toyota twin cam gts that was on the used car lot next to the new car lot i bought my car from.....Saw one last week on my way to nyc from md....tried to race him and the guy flew past me like i was in first gear and i was doing 85!! ...so humbling!!!
Honestly, to anyone that has not yet done these expensive suspension mods and is considering them...my honest opinion is don't waste your time and money......peace.....


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## tosainu1 (Aug 15, 2002)

IF anyone wants to purchase my combo i'd gladly change it back to the factory system, i dont know why i threw them out in the first place!!!! The clunking noise, the stiff back after driving to work or taking those long trips to nyc and back.(not to mention the nyc and dc roads i have to drive through...) After a while, it gets old.....


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

tosainu1, no offense, but I am goin to make an example from you. This is why a person should fully research and understand what they are getting before they get it.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

what are some setups that you guys (anyone) have that are extremely satisfying, if i could get some examples and not just ideas put together that are questionable, that would be great. My idea was GC coilovers and kyb agx shocks/struts


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## kev (Dec 2, 2002)

Blu200sx, 

Don't forget to include the motivational rear upper mounts. The coil over mounts are only $88.

I just received my GC coilovers and motivational mounts today. However, I dont' think my kyb agx's will be delivered by tomorrow. So they're not getting installed this weekend 

They probably won't get installed next weekend either...full weekend of autox for me.


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

Alright so that sounds promising...GC coilovers kyb agx shocks/struts and motivational rear uppermounts


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

*NYC roads*

Thats why I wanted to get B&G springs...they're soft enough for NYC roads, and also lower the car. However, I do want to go back to autocrossing, so I stuck with the eibachs and AGX's with motivational rear mounts. Ride's not stock feeling, but it doesnt' hurt my back. My mother hasn't complained either....except when she goes over speed bumps too fast.


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## JayL1967 (Apr 30, 2002)

GF never hasn't complaint about my set up(she paid for the suspension set up) and I'm very happy with my set up
EIBACH PRO-KIT 
KYB AGX
REAR MOUNTS
BUMP STOP


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## Blu200SX (Jul 22, 2002)

damn it...its like an arm and a leg for a suspension...just getting new 16 inch wheels with 205/50 tires and i know with my stock suspension its gonna look terrible


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## Teknokid (Jun 1, 2002)

Blu200SX said:


> *Alright so that sounds promising...GC coilovers kyb agx shocks/struts and motivational rear uppermounts *


I will be getting this same setup but will include B13 front struts and B14 rears.
I read somewhere (maybe SCC), that Groundcontrol has a camber kit for our the B14's that are top mount and may or may not work with all Front strut bars but give you 0.75" of suspension travel.


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## 99.se.ltd (Jun 21, 2002)

i'll post just to give an example.

as a temporary suspension upgrade, i have agx's (b13/b14) and b&g springs. it IS really low, but i don't have bad bottoming problems. there's an even fender gap too.

click sig for pics.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

99.se.ltd said:


> *i'll post just to give an example.
> 
> as a temporary suspension upgrade, i have agx's (b13/b14) and b&g springs. it IS really low, but i don't have bad bottoming problems. there's an even fender gap too.
> 
> click sig for pics. *


I just saw those pictures.


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## 99.se.ltd (Jun 21, 2002)

98sr20ve said:


> *I just saw those pictures.  *


hehe. yeah, i got the first response in member's rides from the thread i posted with the link.....nobody's been looking there i guess.


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## MisterRatone (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: eibach problems....*



psi wanted said:


> *i have the eibach pro kit on my 98 200sx and the front end sits way higher than the rear. i called eibach and gave them the spring numbers and they said they were right. does anyone else have this problem?? any advice? *



Yes the fender well gap is larger so it seems that the car is lowered more in the back than the front. What I did is I bought suspension techniques for the back (1.5 inch drop) and dropzone springs for the front(2.00 inch drop) that made the car even. I had to buy all 8 springs. ST $149.00 and Dropzone $99.00


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## Rodrigo (Mar 26, 2003)

so eibach prokit is best just if you want to lower your car for a nicer look and every day driving as to 
eibach sport lines will damage your struts and cause severe damage.
ground control is too expensive 
any opinions? 
eibach prokit vs stock


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

I would go for the h&r over the prokits if you are looking into springs..

they are a little stiffer and drop the car 1.5 f & 1.4r


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## Rodrigo (Mar 26, 2003)

do you think I will need to get bump stops too with the H&R?


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

Yes,

I just bought Koni bump rubbers ... it will help a little


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

ANY lowering spring will eventually wear out stock shocks. The KYB AGX shocks are meant for lowering and I believe their warranty covers up to 1.5" drop (even though they are capable of more). 

IMO, the best spring (by what I've heard) is H&R, followed by the Prokit, then the Sportline. I wouldn't recommend any other spring.

Sportlines lower the car about 1.9", but are fairly soft and prolly bottom out like crazy.
Prokits are a bit stiffer and have a 1.4" drop, they still bottom out plenty but alot less than the sportlines.
the H&R seem to be the favorites b/c they have a nice drop (front is a little more to even out the fender gap) and they are stiffer than the prokits.

If you want a good drop and don't care about performance very much, th sportline is still a high quality spring.


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

I read good things about the H&R springs on a couple of Forums..
They turned out to be the best for my needs..

But it looks like it dropped my car 2" 
wtf ...?? my car is low...Someone told me that the springs are 1.75" I am going to have to call H&R and find out whatr the deal is


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

Yeah man ur car is slammed. Theres no way that is 1.5 and 1.4". With almost 3" of space in the front with a 1.5" drop there should still be over an inch left easily.


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

It rides like its slammed to


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

lol you could always hop on the tein train


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

tell you the truth i am very happy with the way the car rides and handles..
I can't wait for the koni bump rubbers and motivational rears to get here


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

I am pretty happy with my setup too. I have the prokit/AGX setup w/ strut bars (front and rear) and Kuhmo rubber. I know it's not the best, but I'm pretty happy. I keep my rear shocks on the stiffest setting and sometimes I turn them all up. On the way to my school, there is an exit off of 528 that has a sweet curve (I live for this turn), I can usually hit the turn at around 70 or so with no problems.

This August, I'll be getting my rear beam bent by Steve (98SR20VE) to a 1/16" negative toe which will help the car corner better and later on, I'm gonna go for the Tien SS Coilovers.


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## McLaren F1 2003 (Jan 2, 2003)

1997 GA16DE said:


> *I'm gonna go for the Tien SS Coilovers. *


mine are being shipped as we speak. im sure my name will end up on the list of people who are pleased with them


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## Rodrigo (Mar 26, 2003)

how much are the koni bump stops? n where to get em?


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## kieranlavin (May 6, 2002)

Rodrigo said:


> *how much are the koni bump stops? n where to get em? *


I don't remember the cost but if I got them from Motivational. Do a search and you'll turn up tons of results


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## JayL1967 (Apr 30, 2002)

Rodrigo said:


> *how much are the koni bump stops? n where to get em? *


$10.00 each


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

I wish they were $10.00

but we went throught a GB with Motivational and we paid $55 shipped..

I think the correct cost is about 65-70 for the set


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## Island^View (Jun 22, 2003)

Hey can anyone tell me what's the difference between the coilovers sold at motivational.net and those sold at ground control (besides the price i mean)? I looked and they seem to have similar setups but about a six hundred dollar difference. Plus would anyone know if those kits include everything i need to change suspension? thank you!


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## nitestridar (Jun 29, 2002)

Hyperco.. is finally going to start making springs for the b14:banana: :banana: 


I think the sprin rates will be 300f 200r 
1.2" f & 1.0"r drop.. 

These springs will be a great option for anyone...
I have rode in a b13 with these and WOW:thumbup: 

I think the cost will be under 3k 

We will know the deal by august 10th


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## 200SEX (May 1, 2002)

i've read all night, and i'm dead tired. just give it to me raw and straight, i'm tired of looking, and please, no flaming. right now, i have stock dampers, and tech 5 lowering springs. i bought these springs off of a guy 4 years ago from sentra.net, and i never knew anything about spring rates or anything. anyway, i have these springs in my car right now, and damn, i bottom out like hell! i think these springs only lowered my car 1.25"... anyway, i never cut any rubber or anything, and my ride is bouncy as hell. anywho, i have a b14, and i bought the ME rear upper mounts. i am going to buy the b13 kyb/agx for the fronts, but i read somewhere, maybe in this thread, that the b13's only benefit the coil-overs for more travel. i thought it would work for any setup. anyway, just please tell me quickly if the b13's will give me more travel for the front with my tech 5 springs. thank you kindly.


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## 200SEX (May 1, 2002)

ok, never mind. i just found that b13 struts wont benefit me since i don't have coil-overs.... poor me. ah well...


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## Blackout (Jul 7, 2003)

Ok I went thru most of this topic and, I think I have the biggest headache in the world. Let me put it this way, I dont know a damn thing about cars, but I'm learning. A while back, I wanted to make my car look good so, Talking to a guy I met in the Air Force, he started helping me out.

SO I bought Sportlines, He installed them, and didnt cut anything on the bumpstops. With my 17's my ride is shytty as hell. I was told just to go with KYB AGX's which I planned too, I thought I would be set. Now I have no idea what bottoming out is, but will I need a camber kit, and anything else. Does anyone else have this set up, and how does it work for u. 

Im just looking for some help or guidance, not flaming- THX


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Sportlines have too much of a drop for our cars. AGXs will help, but they will still bottom out. If you want to drop you car that low you need to get shortened struts/shocks or a full coilover setup with shortened struts/shocks. The main point is that no matter what you do, you need to use shortened struts/shock when you lower a B14 Sentra or the ride will suck, period.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Blackout said:


> *Ok I went thru most of this topic and, I think I have the biggest headache in the world. Let me put it this way, I dont know a damn thing about cars, but I'm learning. A while back, I wanted to make my car look good so, Talking to a guy I met in the Air Force, he started helping me out.
> 
> SO I bought Sportlines, He installed them, and didnt cut anything on the bumpstops. With my 17's my ride is shytty as hell. I was told just to go with KYB AGX's which I planned too, I thought I would be set. Now I have no idea what bottoming out is, but will I need a camber kit, and anything else. Does anyone else have this set up, and how does it work for u.
> 
> Im just looking for some help or guidance, not flaming- THX *


 Patscott is right on this, but unless you have $1000+ for Tiens, you are stuck with the sportlines just like I'm stuck with prokits.

AGX shocks will help the ride a bit, but the main reason you need them is b/c they can handle the lower ride unlike the stockies (which won't last very long with lowering springs). 

you should cut down the bumpstops a bit b/c of the lower ride, I would shave off about 1/3 of the bumpstop in your case. bumpstops will stop you from damaging your shocks and will prevent you from "truely" bottoming out. 

Bottoming out is exactly what it says, basically, if you hit a bump or go into a corner, your springs/shocks compress to dampen the force. The setup needs room to compress and therefore, there's a point when it has compressed all the way and it can't compress anymore. Lowering your car or putting on soft springs (usually a combination of both) gives your suspension even less travel, so it is much easier to run out of room and "bottom out." When you do bottom out, it hurts your suspension assembly, you will hear a loud bang as the top mount bangs against the shock assembly. 

It is also very dangerous to bottom out if you are in a hard turn. Suspension not only makes a comfy, tolerable ride, but it keeps all 4 wheels planted on the ground and shifts the weight of the car when the car is in a turn or on an angle. (assuming you have 200lb/in springs) When you are in a turn every 200lbs of force makes the spring compress an inch or so (the actual amount of force is actually an integration calculation, but no calculus for now) If you happen to bottom out the car during the turn, this means that the spring is no use anymore, the suspension hits the bottom of the chassis, the spring rate goes from ~200lbs of transfer to infinity. 

so therefore, 
>you're in a turn
>your car dives to the outside
>the suspension tries to counter the force but it bottoms out
>your spring rate is infinity
>all the car's weight is now on the outer wheels
>inner wheels lift off the ground
>u and the car are upside down by the exit 32 off ramp.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

It isnt the lower ride they handle better, they control the stiffer springs better.They still bottom out like stockers though.

IIRC the Sportlines say to cut the stops 30mm, the spec comes in the box with the springs. Remeber though, cutting them increases the chance of damaging your shocks when you hit bumps.

Bottoming is when your damper(shock/strut) uses up all its travel and the damper case slams into the upper mount/stop. Its not the spring running out of travel(known as coil-bind). 

Yep, pretty much.


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## dono200sx (May 2, 2002)

Back to the B13 front damper subject a little if you don't mind. Assuming I had the money right now for it, which would I be better off with GC's with B13 fronts and B14 rears (KYB AGX all around), or B14's all around. I'm talking good performance/looks in on package. I want function before form, but that front wheel gap is gonna ddrive me nuts if I drop it and get the nose high look.

EDIT: sorry for backtracking, but this has been a hard thread to follow...


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

GCs and B13f B14r AGXs is better than B14f and r


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

On second thought, for the price of the GC/AGX combo you are in the ballpark of Tein Basic Dampers which are a whole lot better.


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## dono200sx (May 2, 2002)

I was looking around Tein's web site, and actually the SS coilovers aren't very far outside of the range of the GC/AGX's either. Looks like I've got a little thinking to do on this one...

I guess, what's waiting a little longer to save up for it? Seems to me the pros out-weigh the cons.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Rumor has it that the price of agxs is about to go up to almost $500 for all 4, if this happens they wont be worth it anymore.


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## dono200sx (May 2, 2002)

If that happens, I'm definately getting Tein's....


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## B14INMIAMI (Oct 11, 2003)

good theard very elaborte.. lol


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## smokedoutb14 (Dec 30, 2003)

*Tein Springs*

How are the Tein Springs for the B14 (2.4F & 1.2R)?? Anybody??


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## apachewoolf (Mar 7, 2004)

*i know yall heard this*

ok now i kn9ow this sounds stupid but how many have heard about heating the shocks and making them shrink i know it may not be the best way but if you have it set for camber and such afterwards what is the major drawback when it comes to driveabilty? i havent had it done but my custom shop said they could do it without any probd as long as they dont lower it to far say 1" to 1.5" and that they cut the bumpstops to match the drop


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## dookie (May 21, 2002)

i live in Clarksville, and i'm wondering what custom shop are you talking about? i have friends at a shop on dover rd. the shop is called "Ride Right." that is the type of lowering they do, but i definitely don't advise it. but people go to a custom shop like that because they don't know what is best and they trust custom shops to do what is in the best interest of the customer, but that is not always the case.


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## apachewoolf (Mar 7, 2004)

well ya cuaght me this is my first time lowering a vehicle i am used to raising them and you know the shop also thanks for the feedback ill check into a different setup


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## nissansofspokane (Oct 30, 2003)

i have tein s-tech with agx and love it!! i had prolines first with the agx was ok didnt like the ass low look, so i got cheapie coil overs and ride was too rough, got teins.. cool look nice ride, i auto cross i hit a little but not a big slam, like i did with the coilovers. my bro has sportlines with the motivational front struts and front and rear mounts, 18's, and he has a great ride, he doesnt race it but has good handling. just my 2 cents...


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## Nismo1997 (Dec 26, 2003)

get coil overs. I installed a set on my sentra i had the biggest wheel gap ever know. now shes so low she almost sits on the ground as if she got bags. Im very happy with them.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

nissansofspokane said:


> i have tein s-tech with agx and love it!! i had prolines first with the agx was ok didnt like the ass low look, so i got cheapie coil overs and ride was too rough, got teins.. cool look nice ride, i auto cross i hit a little but not a big slam, like i did with the coilovers. my bro has sportlines with the motivational front struts and front and rear mounts, 18's, and he has a great ride, he doesnt race it but has good handling. just my 2 cents...


Which would you say rides better the eibach or tein. Also which handle better? I'm asking because the roads in Jamaica are rough and riddle with potholes here and there on the way to the country and even in some residential areas. So I wanna know which is best suited for such a situation. I realise the tein s tech are cheaper than eibach, but I'm willing to go for eibach if they handle and perform good.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Ok, I'm realising from talking to people in my neck of the woulds to go for H&R or tein s-tech. They said the stiffness is best when it comes to not bottoming out. Everyone who has had the eibach has sold them. I really wanted GC's but I can't afford them at all.


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## B14_Stealth (Aug 14, 2003)

nissansofspokane said:


> i have tein s-tech with agx and love it!! i had prolines first with the agx was ok didnt like the ass low look, so i got cheapie coil overs and ride was too rough, got teins.. cool look nice ride, i auto cross i hit a little but not a big slam, like i did with the coilovers. my bro has sportlines with the motivational front struts and front and rear mounts, 18's, and he has a great ride, he doesnt race it but has good handling. just my 2 cents...


would you say TEIN S-Tech springs would ride better then Sprint Springs? From what i heard Sprint Springs are the worse..and ofcourse i have them, the ride is bouncy and crappy therefore im upgrading my suspension ..to possibly TEIN S-Tech springs & KYB GR-2s. ... 
right now i got 2" drop all around, from what ive read .. the TEIN springs are 1.1" in the back and 2.4" in the front, Correct?
Woud i need a new camber kit for that ? I had one installed when i had my alligment done so the camber kit is for my current 2" front drop.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't think gr-2's will work with tein, you gonna have to use agx, just my opinion.


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## B14_Stealth (Aug 14, 2003)

how much more expensive are AGXs..and what is the difference ..besides that AGX can be adjusted manualy and GR-2 adjust themselfs automaticly..is that correct?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

B14_Stealth said:


> how much more expensive are AGXs..and what is the difference ..besides that AGX can be adjusted manualy and GR-2 adjust themselfs automaticly..is that correct?


Not exactly, self adjusting is a marketing term. Any multi stage valving can technicaly behave differently under different shaft velocities.

Mike


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Question is anyone here running sway bars front and rear?
How do they perfom on stock, eibach, h&r, tein s tech and GC's?


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Ok, for those who don't know, here are the spring rates for the eibach springs. I got them from courtesy parts.

Pro kit:
fr- 137/228 lbs(progressive)
rr- 114/240 lbs (progressive)

sportline:
fr- 189 lbs (seems linear)
rr- 117/228 lbs (progressive)

I will post the spring rates for tein in the sticky for lowering springs thread since this is stricktly eibach.

What I want to know, which I've seen asked several times but never answered is, are eibach springs better than stock?


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## hpro123 (Apr 30, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Ok, for those who don't know, here are the spring rates for the eibach springs. I got them from courtesy parts.
> 
> Pro kit:
> fr- 137/228 lbs(progressive)
> ...


Where did you get the EIBACH information from???

It seems very different from whatever I have been able to dig-up until now.
Not to mention that it also seems counter-intuitive when one has driven a Sentra with Eibachs. YOur data shgows bot Prokit and Sportline rear springs with higher final rates than the fronts and I have yet to hear of an eibach-equiped Sentra that behaved like it hade stiffer rears than fronts.

Chris


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> What I want to know, which I've seen asked several times but never answered is, are eibach springs better than stock?


What does "better than stock" refer to? Without clarification it means nothing.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

hpro123 said:


> Where did you get the EIBACH information from???
> 
> It seems very different from whatever I have been able to dig-up until now.
> Not to mention that it also seems counter-intuitive when one has driven a Sentra with Eibachs. YOur data shgows bot Prokit and Sportline rear springs with higher final rates than the fronts and I have yet to hear of an eibach-equiped Sentra that behaved like it hade stiffer rears than fronts.
> ...


Sorry I thought I put it the source, but I left out a part of the name why, you didn't see it. I got it from nissan courtesy parts. Well based on what a guy who has them on said to me, sounded like he had a stiff rear spring with his eibach setup. He said that the front felt fine, but the back bounces a bit around corners.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

ReVerm said:


> What does "better than stock" refer to? Without clarification it means nothing.


Are you serious? I thought the word stock when it came to cars was universal but I guess not. By stock I mean, the springs that came with the car from the naufacturer (stock = OEM). 

Are Eibach prokits with the right shock setup (kyb agx), better, than the springs and shocks setup that came with the car?


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

My guess also, is that Eibach has probably changed the dynamics of their springs to meet the needs of the drivers. I would assume that these complaints have reached Eibach and they maybe have newly designed rates. I don't know, just maybe.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

I decided to reply to alot of the posts here, more to come:


nissansofspokane said:


> i have tein s-tech with agx and love it!! i had prolines first with the agx was ok didnt like the ass low look, so i got cheapie coil overs and ride was too rough, got teins.. cool look nice ride, i auto cross i hit a little but not a big slam, like i did with the coilovers. my bro has sportlines with the motivational front struts and front and rear mounts, 18's, and he has a great ride, he doesnt race it but has good handling. just my 2 cents...


You mean prokit, right? Sounds pretty good, I would think Tien to have a really good spring being that they have a really great coilover setup.


Nismo1997 said:


> get coil overs. I installed a set on my sentra i had the biggest wheel gap ever know. now shes so low she almost sits on the ground as if she got bags. Im very happy with them.


By coilovers, I REALLY hope you know what you're talking about. Coilovers aren't put on so you can sit on the ground. I would say you're the kind of troll that bought yourelf some shitty coilovers on ebay and now you're killing you're suspension, tires, and handling, b/c you don't know the first thing about suspension. Being that you're prolly sitting on your bumpstops/strut bodies, I suggest highly against hard cornering and quick maneuvering since you're car is prolly going to flip one day.

In the unlikely chance you are ACTUALLY talking about a respectible setup (GC, Tien, Motivational, B&G), then ignore the above paragraph and raise the car up a little bit b/c these are meant for performance, not slamming your car.


shift_of_legend said:


> Which would you say rides better the eibach or tein. Also which handle better? I'm asking because the roads in Jamaica are rough and riddle with potholes here and there on the way to the country and even in some residential areas. So I wanna know which is best suited for such a situation. I realise the tein s tech are cheaper than eibach, but I'm willing to go for eibach if they handle and perform good.


I have Sportline springs in the front and prokit springs in the back (AGX and motivational mounts as well). I like the ride height, and I like the handling of the car, but it is pretty rough on badly paved roads. I can just about feel it when I run over a quarter and I don't even have low profile tires. I think the S techs may jus be a bit more comfortable. Also look into H&R.


shift_of_legend said:


> Ok, I'm realising from talking to people in my neck of the woulds to go for H&R or tein s-tech. They said the stiffness is best when it comes to not bottoming out. Everyone who has had the eibach has sold them. I really wanted GC's but I can't afford them at all.


correct, as you lower the car, you lose suspension travel and therefore must make up for it by having stiffer springs. I would think H&R and S-tech are around the same level, but there are no real comparisons to back up any claims of "which is better", eibach, H&R, and Tien S-tech are going to do about the same.


B14_Stealth said:


> would you say TEIN S-Tech springs would ride better then Sprint Springs? From what i heard Sprint Springs are the worse..and ofcourse i have them, the ride is bouncy and crappy therefore im upgrading my suspension ..to possibly TEIN S-Tech springs & KYB GR-2s. ...
> right now i got 2" drop all around, from what ive read .. the TEIN springs are 1.1" in the back and 2.4" in the front, Correct?
> Woud i need a new camber kit for that ? I had one installed when i had my alligment done so the camber kit is for my current 2" front drop.


Sprint are supposed to be crap IIRC. If it's bouncy, it's most likely that your shocks are blown, not the springs fault. GR-2s are just like stock shocks in the sense that they are meant for stock height and stock springs. If you have any sort of aftermarket lowering spring, you need a shock that works with lowering springs. AGX, Tokico, and Motivational shortened struts (bling, bling) are your options.


shift_of_legend said:


> I don't think gr-2's will work with tein, you gonna have to use agx, just my opinion.


Correct, like mentioned above, GR-2s are to be used with stock springs.


B14_Stealth said:


> how much more expensive are AGXs..and what is the difference ..besides that AGX can be adjusted manualy and GR-2 adjust themselfs automaticly..is that correct?


The best price I've found for AGX is $390-shipped. Try GroupBuyCenter.com for the best price.

GR-2s don't automatically adjust, they have a single set dampening force, AGX can change the dampening force by the user's preferences.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

shift_of_legend said:


> Question is anyone here running sway bars front and rear?
> How do they perfom on stock, eibach, h&r, tein s tech and GC's?


My suspension has carried over from my 97 to my 99. The 99 has a front sway bar. I would say the biggest difference is the stability and the responsiveness of the front end. A sway bar is not necessarily going to change your ride, it's jus gonna allow you to push the car a little harder without loss of control.


shift_of_legend said:


> Are you serious? I thought the word stock when it came to cars was universal but I guess not. By stock I mean, the springs that came with the car from the naufacturer (stock = OEM).
> 
> Are Eibach prokits with the right shock setup (kyb agx), better, than the springs and shocks setup that came with the car?


Stock(OEM) and aftermarket are 2 completely different categories. In order to compare something to stock OEM, we have to be talking about something that is OEM replacement. This means I can compare GR-2s to Stock but not to AGXs b/c AGXs are in a different category.

When you move to the aftermarket world, you have to know that for every gain, there is also a sacrafice. The Eibachs can't necessarily be "better than stock" because in some senses they are better and in some senses, they are worse. For example (and to answer your Q), the eibachs are better performing than stock, however you drastically lose comfort over stock springs. Same with the ride height. They are better b/c they make the car lower (nice looking), but they are worse b/c you now have to worry about suspension travel.


shift_of_legend said:


> My guess also, is that Eibach has probably changed the dynamics of their springs to meet the needs of the drivers. I would assume that these complaints have reached Eibach and they maybe have newly designed rates. I don't know, just maybe.


Usually, if they're going to change a spring's specs, they're going to just make a new spring and change the name (to avoid confusion). Any prokit spring is just as good as the next. The only exception is the coilover setups that let you CHOOSE the rate before purchase.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> Are you serious? I thought the word stock when it came to cars was universal but I guess not. By stock I mean, the springs that came with the car from the naufacturer (stock = OEM).
> 
> Are Eibach prokits with the right shock setup (kyb agx), better, than the springs and shocks setup that came with the car?


...You're kidding, right? lol

I'm asking what you're referring to by "better", not by "stock".


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> My guess also, is that Eibach has probably changed the dynamics of their springs to meet the needs of the drivers. I would assume that these complaints have reached Eibach and they maybe have newly designed rates. I don't know, just maybe.


The Pro-kits for our cars have always had rear springs with higher rates at full compression than the fronts. The reason you don't feel it is because you never actually get there. That is, your car runs out of travel before it hits that rate. In a B14 Sentra, you would need about 3/4" more travel than you get with a stock-length damper in order to get the fully compressed rate. How do I know this? We built our own rack and tested it in a friend's basement.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

ReVerm said:


> ? The Pro-kits for our cars have always had rear springs with higher rates at full compression than the fronts. The reason you don't feel it is because you never actually get there. That is, your car runs out of travel before it hits that rate. In a B14 Sentra, you would need about 3/4" more travel than you get with a stock-length damper in order to get the fully compressed rate. How do I know this? We built our own rack and tested it in a friend's basement.


cool thanks reverm and nine. Good info. I am in a bit of a bind, because I can get the Eibach springs out here, and I wanted to get the eibach sway bars aswell. I like pushing hard into to corners. But the more I read is the more I think Tein s.tech or H&R. Strangest thing is that, there is a guy here with a 94 sunny(sentra) and he has the pro kits on and the front and back are even. He says he pushes it hard, and it handles well except that the back bounces. He has some tokico on the back but he's going to change the shocks to kyb agx. Now I don't know if I should put them on my N15 Sedan pulsar or not. The Teins are very affordable from www.optionimports.com and ebay, the H&R aren't bad either but I can get the Eibach's out here installed and everything.


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## sts25 (Aug 19, 2004)

i autocross/ daily driver with sportlines & GR-2 ,SE-R rear swaybar no front swaybar , made adjustable end links for rear swaybar. depending one the length of rear end links seems to determine the " rear- bounce" (shorter=more bounce less roll, and the longer=less bounce more roll) much better then OEM, stock, or what ever you want to call it.


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## sts25 (Aug 19, 2004)

it depends on what your after , i tried a font sway bar on my car and it sucked lots of under steer( not good on mountain roads) felt beeter at higher speeds due to understeer no front swaybar= more oversteer, body roll,better front grip less corner exit wheelspin


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## B14_Stealth (Aug 14, 2003)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> Sprint are supposed to be crap IIRC. If it's bouncy, it's most likely that your shocks are blown, not the springs fault. GR-2s are just like stock shocks in the sense that they are meant for stock height and stock springs. If you have any sort of aftermarket lowering spring, you need a shock that works with lowering springs. AGX, Tokico, and Motivational shortened struts (bling, bling) are your options.
> 
> Correct, like mentioned above, GR-2s are to be used with stock springs.
> 
> ...


Well the good news is that i got Tein S.Tech springs and AGXs on my car now, the drive is soooo much better than before on my blown stock shocks/struts and Spring springs, just wanted to let you know


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## jmann98 (Aug 20, 2004)

I'd love to hear more people's experience with Tein springs (S-Tech or H-Tech) w/AGXs. The drop in front is 2.4 and 2.0 according to Tein, which seems like it would be a serious problem. The back sounds good with drops of 1.1 and .06, respectively.

-97 se-r with AGXs and stock springs.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

jmann98 said:


> I'd love to hear more people's experience with Tein springs (S-Tech or H-Tech) w/AGXs. The drop in front is 2.4 and 2.0 according to Tein, which seems like it would be a serious problem. The back sounds good with drops of 1.1 and .06, respectively.
> 
> -97 se-r with AGXs and stock springs.


I wouldn't want to ride that low on unshortened struts, not even AGX shocks/struts are meant to ride that low. If you were to go with 2.0-2.4" drop, you would need high spring rates and motivational struts.


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## az3098 (Sep 13, 2004)

*Eibach Sportline w/ KYB AGX*

Anyone have any experiences with the Eibach Sportline spings paired with the KYB AGX struts? That's the set-up I'm looking to put on my B13 and was hoping to find out the various pro's/con's before I drop the $650. Any advice for or against will be greatly appreciated.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

az3098 said:


> Anyone have any experiences with the Eibach Sportline spings paired with the KYB AGX struts? That's the set-up I'm looking to put on my B13 and was hoping to find out the various pro's/con's before I drop the $650. Any advice for or against will be greatly appreciated.


Hyperco makes a lowering spring that is good for our cars. Everything else is not that great. The most you can drop a b13 is 1 inch with stock length struts. They are the only ones to make that spring spec.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

az3098 said:


> Anyone have any experiences with the Eibach Sportline spings paired with the KYB AGX struts? That's the set-up I'm looking to put on my B13 and was hoping to find out the various pro's/con's before I drop the $650. Any advice for or against will be greatly appreciated.


It's a setup that works, but not something I'd recommend anymore. If I could do it over again, I'd save up to about $850 and I'd have some Tien Basics.


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## az3098 (Sep 13, 2004)

98sr20ve said:


> Hyperco makes a lowering spring that is good for our cars. Everything else is not that great. The most you can drop a b13 is 1 inch with stock length struts. They are the only ones to make that spring spec.


I've heard that. But if I'm replacing the stock strut with the KYB AGX adjustable strut will that work alright?


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## az3098 (Sep 13, 2004)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> It's a setup that works, but not something I'd recommend anymore. If I could do it over again, I'd save up to about $850 and I'd have some Tien Basics.


Would it be a better setup if I replaced the Sportline package with the Pro-Kit package? (Reduce the drop from about 1.6" to 1.2"). Keep in mind, I'm replacing the stock strut with the KYB AGX adjustable strut.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Honestly, the sportline and the prokit are about the same spring. The Sportline is lower at 1.9" vs. 1.4". Still, they're hardly considered performance anymore.

AGX shocks: $400 new.
New Eibach Springs: ~$200...

you're now up to $600. Add another $100-150 and you could buy Tien basics which are MUUUUCCCHHHH better.


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## Jaralaccs (Jan 18, 2004)

sportlines will break your car. i run the same setup you want, and since then my cd player broke, my clock spring broke, all the screws in the dash loosen, my front wheels loosen fraying the lug bolts. it has been non stop problems with these things. 
any bump on the road will cause your teeth to shatter and the above to happen. so instead of making more problems which possible would waste you that much more money you could've saved and get tein basics.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Jaralaccs said:


> sportlines will break your car. i run the same setup you want, and since then my cd player broke, my clock spring broke, all the screws in the dash loosen, my front wheels loosen fraying the lug bolts. it has been non stop problems with these things.
> any bump on the road will cause your teeth to shatter and the above to happen. so instead of making more problems which possible would waste you that much more money you could've saved and get tein basics.


Yea, most any eibach setup will do this, my ride is very harsh. The fact is, the Eibach/AGX setup is not a good combo. It's a recommended setup since the AGXs are the most affordable shocks that will not blow with most lowering springs, but other than that, they work together like peanut butter and mayonnaise.

The only standalone shocks that will work magic with any spring is the shortened Tociko(sp) shock available by motivational, but that's only if you wanna dish out $250 for EACH shock. The day I dish out $1000 on shocks is the day I buy Tien SS coilovers.

Idiot:
(bouncy, blown shocks, horrible ride)
Springs: $150

Ricer:
(rough ride, cheap, not much performance gained)
Springs: $150
AGXs: $400

Novus:
(rough ride, slightly more performance)
Ground Control coilovers: $300
AGXs: $400
Camber plates and rear mounts: $200+$150

Weekend cone killer:
(smooth ride, much control, excellent performance)
Tien Basic coilovers: $750
Pillowball mounts: $250

Crazy Enthusiast:
(awesome performance, fair ride, lots spent)
Motivational shortened shocks: $1000
Ground Control coilovers by Eibach: $300
Koni Bumpstops: $60
Camber plates and rear mounts: $200+$150

Smart Enthusiast:
(Awesome performance, smooth ride, saved money)
Tien SS coilovers (threaded shocks, springs, bumpstops): $1250
Pillowball mounts (camber adjustable): $250

you can substitute Tien SS coilovers with motivational coilovers or B&G.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> ...but other than that, they work together like peanut butter and mayonnaise.


Hey, I like peanut butter and mayo.  

But in all seriousness, aren't the Motivational shortened struts Konis?


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

maybe so...I know they sel koni bump stops, but I thought they had tokico struts...iono, either way, they're good but too expensive to be worth it to most people. The only situation I would use motivational's shortened struts is if I alrerady had GC coilovers, bumpstops, camber plates and rear mounts and I was just looking to upgrade the shocks/struts.


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## 2slowpro (Jan 13, 2005)

Now i've noticed you guys state that most lowering set ups seem to make the car bottom out what do you define bottoming out? Body hitting the ground or the chassis hitting the ground?


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## 2slowpro (Jan 13, 2005)

also who is the best shop to go through to get the shorten struts, koni bump stop, rear mounts, and adjustable camber plates for the front.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

2slowpro said:


> also who is the best shop to go through to get the shorten struts, koni bump stop, rear mounts, and adjustable camber plates for the front.


I make them for people all the time. You can search my screen name at sr20forum.com if you like. I make the fronts for $340 a set. Plus shipping of course. I also have cores if you like as well.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> The only standalone shocks that will work magic with any spring is the shortened Tociko(sp) shock available by motivational, but that's only if you wanna dish out $250 for EACH shock. The day I dish out $1000 on shocks is the day I buy Tien SS coilovers.


Actually, he uses a Koni insert. It's not a Tociko at all by the time he is done with it.


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## 2slowpro (Jan 13, 2005)

Ok Nissan guys whats up w/ the suspension questions. What is the Best Spring and strut combo? And what company sells them i hear a lot of Motivional but who is this? And someone stated they make something for $340 what is it you make for that?


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

2slowpro said:


> Ok Nissan guys whats up w/ the suspension questions. What is the Best Spring and strut combo? And what company sells them i hear a lot of Motivional but who is this? And someone stated they make something for $340 what is it you make for that?


The setup I make for you is basically a non-coilover setup for the car using koni's. It is very similiar to the motivational setup just a lot less expensive (I also think mine is better because it is not welded). The best lowering spring for the B13/14 is the Hyperco. Go to sr20forum.com and search around. All other lowering springs su%& on the B13/14. I do not spend a great deal of time pluging my product. If you want search my name and "koni" on the above forum and read for yourself. I also can make a coilover setup that is exteranaly adjustable as well. Just cost more. For the $340 you get two front struts that are 12 inch's long. That is 1.25 inchs shorter then stock. B14 and B13 have different rears so prices vary. Only the front on the b13/14 need to be shorter. So some people pair the Koni fronts with AGX rears.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

2slowpro said:


> Ok Nissan guys whats up w/ the suspension questions. What is the Best Spring and strut combo? And what company sells them i hear a lot of Motivional but who is this? And someone stated they make something for $340 what is it you make for that?


The very best is Ground Control's Advance Design racing strut system. It uses Eibach ERS racing springs.


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## 2slowpro (Jan 13, 2005)

Ok now what type of sturt are you using to create this?


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

2slowpro said:


> Ok now what type of sturt are you using to create this?


I am using a Koni struts. The koni red, adjustable. You have to remove the strut to adjust it. I pre-adjust them for you.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

2slowpro said:


> Now i've noticed you guys state that most lowering set ups seem to make the car bottom out what do you define bottoming out? Body hitting the ground or the chassis hitting the ground?


This is a good question. When people on this forum say "bottom out" or "suspension bottoms out", they usually mean that the dampers on the car compress so much that the top of the damper hits the bump stop. Having the suspension bottom out (one or more dampers compress fully) may or may not result in having the chassis or body bottom out (hit the ground).


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

ReVerm said:


> This is a good question. When people on this forum say "bottom out" or "suspension bottoms out", they usually mean that the dampers on the car compress so much that the top of the damper hits the bump stop. Having the suspension bottom out (one or more dampers compress fully) may or may not result in having the chassis or body bottom out (hit the ground).


Yes, bottoming out is the suspension running out of travel not the car hitting the ground.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

I finally saw a set at the convention, the guy with the black B13 was putting them on his car Saturday. So basically, you gut the stock dampers and slide the inserts into the strut body, correct? Are they a tight fit in there b/c I couldn't really tell by looking at them, they looked to be the same exact size as the hole they go into.


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> I finally saw a set at the convention, the guy with the black B13 was putting them on his car Saturday. So basically, you gut the stock dampers and slide the inserts into the strut body, correct? Are they a tight fit in there b/c I couldn't really tell by looking at them, they looked to be the same exact size as the hole they go into.


I have posted how I do it on sr20forum.com. They are a tight fit and I modify the bottom mounting to lower it about an inch.


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## N2theSideWall (Aug 26, 2005)

*Suspension from Heaven*



Neil said:


> So in effect you guys are saying either keep it stock or get coilovers.
> 
> Are there no springs on the market that deliver good results with little to no bottoming with


There is a new spring line from japan that have little to no bottoming out there a little pricy but what would you pay for the best quality?check out SWIFT SPRINGS. These things are the shiznizzle


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## 98sr20ve (Oct 6, 2002)

N2theSideWall said:


> There is a new spring line from japan that have little to no bottoming out there a little pricy but what would you pay for the best quality?check out SWIFT SPRINGS. These things are the shiznizzle


Unless they are 300lb/200lb or better with an inch or less drop then they wont be any different. Simple as that.


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## N2theSideWall (Aug 26, 2005)

these springs are based for performance the drop inst too drastic about an inch or less and they make their lowering springs application specific for each vehicle check out there web site.


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## snowcrash1984 (Sep 22, 2005)

andre said:


> Damn...oh well. I DO autocross from time to time, but I decided to stop until I install my springs. A friend of mine took pics of the car at autocross, and it was scary to see that the car was about 2 inches from the ground in the corners. I was gonna get B&G springs (softer than eibach), but I wanted the stiffer ones for auto-x, so I stuck with eibach. I understand all that has been said in this thread, and I acknowlege the fact that I will be bottoming out on these [email protected]$$ roads. As much as I hate the uneven fender gaps, I guess I'm stuck with it. I guess I'll be careful on these springs (pro-kits)...but its my mother I'm worried about....she flies over bumps without knowing.  Oh well, I think I should stop reading this, because it makes me want to undo all that I have done...just kidding. Thanks for all the info guys, keep the discussion going.


NO!!! You will hate your car. I have Eibach pro on my Firebird and it’s bottoming out like crazy with KYB GR2s.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

the prokits aren't *that* bad on my car. I have prokits in the rear and sportlines in the front. The rears definately bottom out over speedbumps, but handling isn't too bad on a course.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> Unless the strut is so short that it compresses the hell out of the spring, strut size wont affect height. The car sits on the springs not the struts. From what I understood the B13 struts have a shorter body(case) but the close to the same extended leagnth. If thats not the case then maybe it would lower the car some.



Don't know if anyone settled this myth but I have. I replced my b14 front struts with b13 and it sits lower because the spring chair is lower. the front and back fender gaps are now even. the front of the car dips foward. I've been complemented on it many times since then and I am loving it.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I want a certain myth cleared up now. I read that when the eibach prokit springs are paired with tokico hp and eibach sway bars the car does not bottom out. Anyone with experience care to comment?

it makes sense since the sway bars will virtually add spring rate.


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## tekamadrid (Jul 24, 2006)

ok guys... this whole thing about eibach sportlines is kind of annoying... the reason that the sportlines are not as popular is because they are entirely too low. our cars have extremely small amount of travel as is and they were originally designed to be economy cars, so there is no surprise that when lowering, they have even less travel. as to the performance issues, yes, it's true that if you lower the car you will lower the roll- center, and improve performance, but to be completely honest, i think it's the driver's fault to a large extent. I have beaten plenty of guys up in the mountains of LA downhill on a tokico shock(blues) and a stock anti-roll bar from a 4-door. if your car pushes (which is all of us) get some serious brakes and learn how to left foot break... this allows for more weight transfer to the front = more traction.


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