# Timing Advancement



## NissanTuner (Dec 1, 2002)

I took my ride into a Performance Nissan Shop here in town because my service engine light popped on and i wanted them to pull the ECU code so i could fix whatever the hell it was that was wrong. Anyhow I get there, he pulls the code and tells me its a sticky Internal Air Control thingy thats bolted down to the throttle body. He adjusts a screw, fixes the problem free and were done. I then ask him if he can advance my timing to 15.

He paused for a second, and told me how they werent SUPPOSED to advance the timing more than 2 past the manufacturers spec, but that he would do it for a fee. He then told me that advancing my timing wouldnt increase my horsepower any, even running 91+ octane fuel.

Im not sure who to believe now, this guy has been customizing nissans for over 15 years and hes extremely reputable, but then I have the boards here saying that timing advancement does result in a power boost.

Anyone care to comment? Im just wondering if I should go for broke and get my timing advanced. I would do it myself but I cant seem to dig up the thread that explains how to lock the ECU into timing mode.


----------



## hpro123 (Apr 30, 2002)

No, do not go broke.
Go back to him and have hime adjust the timing to 12 degrees BTDC for NO FEE.

Manufacturers spes are 10deg +-2 so 12 is still withing specs, so no FEE there. At 12 you will have 80% of what you may hope to gain by advancing the timing. 12 to 15 may still give some gains but you never know how much. Just make sure you are at the very top of the manufacturers specs.

ANd yes, advancing from whatever below 12 to 12 will give you some gains in the low to mid-range of teh RPMs.

Chris


----------



## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

yea, i wouldnt pay him a fee...........the work is so easy to do man, unless he wants to charge u like 5 bux....then maybe u can just chill and let him do it....BUT MAKE SURE HE DOES IT!......some shops charge u for stuff they dont do, rather than stuff they do........but if u have a timing gun, do it yourself, it only takes about 10mins to do. and 5 of those minutes go into waiting for the oxygen sensor to heat up to normal operating range.....BUT! make sure u run at least 2 tanks of 91 octane fuel BEFORE doing the advancement......


----------



## Lucino200sx (Apr 30, 2002)

Yes it does make more HP. 

If you don't believe me, advance it, drive it for a few weeks, set it back to original degree. Oh, you will notice the difference.


----------



## Lucino200sx (Apr 30, 2002)

Experience sometimes is our worest enemy.


----------



## landlord (Jun 11, 2002)

Lucino200sx said:


> *Yes it does make more HP.
> 
> If you don't believe me, advance it, drive it for a few weeks, set it back to original degree. Oh, you will notice the difference. *


yeah i turned my timing back when i went on a 1000 mile road trip, then road with it like that for a couple of months, i recently turned it back and wow it's a noticable difference! i can chirp the wheels shifting into third.


----------



## 92sentra92 (Sep 20, 2002)

*question*

hey all, i was wondering, is there a way i can do this myself without a timing gun, or do I have to go have someone with one do it ? Thanks everyone.

Edgar

*'92 Sentra SE Classic...soon to have GReddy cat back*


----------



## sr20 805 (Oct 7, 2002)

nope, u need a timing gun to show u the numbers(lines).......because u have to connect the cable from the gun to the first spark plug cable......then ground the other cable.......u can get a descent gun over at pep boys, autozone or any other shop like that for about 40$


----------



## Teknokid (Jun 1, 2002)

Actually you can advance your timing without a timing gun but it takes more work. 

You turn your distributor toward you (assuming youre looking at engine from the front bumper) to advance it and back towards the firewall to retard it. I heard something like this a while back, not sure on its validity. SOmeone please correct me


----------



## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

yeah, when I first did my timing I didn't notice too much of a difference. At one point, I turned it back and it screwed up my power band. I could feel wierd spikes valleys in my power band at WOT and I could right away feel a dramatic decrease in power (especially above 5K). Currently, I'm running 19* problem free with 93 octane.


----------



## AznVirus (May 8, 2002)

Teknokid said:


> *Actually you can advance your timing without a timing gun but it takes more work.
> 
> You turn your distributor toward you (assuming youre looking at engine from the front bumper) to advance it and back towards the firewall to retard it. I heard something like this a while back, not sure on its validity. SOmeone please correct me *


well if you advance your timing that way, how will you know what your timing is set? its easy to overdo it and you wouldnt know.


----------



## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

AznVirus said:


> *well if you advance your timing that way, how will you know what your timing is set? its easy to overdo it and you wouldnt know. *


Well, you have to assume and you can easily check it later. Any automotive shop would most likely let you borrow their timing light for a sec. Just assume 1mm=~2* and periodically check for pinging by pulling on the throttle cable. The GA16 is a pretty tough Mothafoka. You can pretty much advance the distributer all the way and the ECU will retard it to where you will never hear pinging (Not that I recommend this in the least). Like I said before, I'm running 19* on mine (as shown on the light) and I've never had pinging one bit. Good thing they got 93 octane over here


----------



## N8inNV (Nov 16, 2002)

This may sound dumb, but inquiring minds want to know, why the use of high octane 91, fuel is needed?..If the timing is advanced, and how much horse power approx will result from the advanced timing.?


----------



## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

higher octane fuels have several advantages over lower ones.
1. In higher compression engines like racing car engines, the fuel can actually detonate spontaneously before the spark and therefore give knocking. Higher octanes don't combust as easily making it alot safer to run higher commpression.

2. these fuels also provide a quicker, cleaner, and hotter burn. This will make the explosion happen faster and not linger.

Advancing your timing means the spark happens earlier. Advancing the timing is basically a balancing act with the position of the piston. You want the explostion to happen right when the piston hits the hightest point in the cylinder. If it explodes too soon, the kinetics will make the piston contine to rise AGAINST THE EXPLOSION which will result in major power loss and also will destroy the engine fairly quickly. If the explostion happens too late, the piston has already started it's trip downward and the explosion can't be completely utilized, once again resulting in powerloss. 

The combination of these fuel properties I listed basically means that with a higher octane, the explosion will happen right on time. It won't acidentially fire eary, it will burn quickly, and it won't lag.


----------



## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

You don't need a race engine to experience detonation. It can happen to anyone if the conditions are met and those conditions are easy to meet.

High-octane fuel combusts just as easily as low-octane fuel. High-octane fuel requires higher activation energy (in chemistry parlance) before combustion is achieved. Once burning, the flame front expands at the same rate as low-octane fuel.

High-octane fuel burn is not "quicker", it isn't necessarily "cleaner", nor is it "hotter".

Spark timing is usually set BEFORE top dead center (as the piston is rising) because combustion takes time to initiate and complete. Highest pressure won't occur until piston is on its way back down, however. The higher the rpm and poorer the combustion chamber design, the earlier static timing must be set. Motorcycle racing engines can need as much as 50º BTDC.

For more information on detonation and octane requirements, read Gasoline FAQ and Taylor's "The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, Vol. 2".


----------



## GA16DESentraXE (Dec 17, 2002)

It's completely possible to do your timing without a light. You just have to listen to the engine (for pinging). If you hear pinging, bring it back.


----------



## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

That's a *BAD* way to set timing. You've set base timing to just under detonation conditions under the best possible operating conditions for the engine. Any load and the ECU must retard the timing.

Do it right or don't do it at all.


----------



## landlord (Jun 11, 2002)

bahearn said:


> *That's a BAD way to set timing. You've set base timing to just under detonation conditions under the best possible operating conditions for the engine. Any load and the ECU must retard the timing.
> 
> Do it right or don't do it at all. *


i second that.


----------



## GA16DESentraXE (Dec 17, 2002)

I didn't say "Hey, do it like this" heheh I was just saying that it's possible. =) 

Another way to do timing is by vacuum... But I don't know how to do it like that.


----------



## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

hehe, why not get that chip (I mean resistor) on ebay that fools the ECU into thinking it's 50* out.

 j/k


----------



## Centurion (Sep 5, 2002)

GA16DESentraXE said:


> *It's completely possible to do your timing without a light. You just have to listen to the engine (for pinging). If you hear pinging, bring it back. *


He's absolutely right. *Unless* you don't know what you are doing or are not 100% sure of what to listen for. Definitely do not do it this way if you are inexperienced. I have thrown away my timing light and I do it this way. I therefore know what the limit of advance is, and then I just back it off a hair and I know it's timed for optimal performance.


----------



## N8inNV (Nov 16, 2002)

Today when i went out to my parents house, i used my stepdads timing light and advanced my timing to 15* like most of you guys.. I can really feel the differancenow, !..

thanks guys


----------



## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

> It's completely possible to do your timing without a light. You just have to listen to the engine (for pinging). If you hear pinging, bring it back.


How does ping sound and knock or the symptoms for knocking?

Thanks


----------



## AznVirus (May 8, 2002)

shmuck90 said:


> *How does ping sound and knock or the symptoms for knocking?
> 
> Thanks *


like loud metallic pinging. youll notice it unless you have the music blasting out the window, but id still think youd be able to hear it.


----------



## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

ohh i see, what can it be from if i dont even have my car advanced?

Thanks again


----------



## AznVirus (May 8, 2002)

you shouldnt have it if your timing isnt advanced. plus thats what the knock sensor is for, it will retard timing if it hears pinging.


----------



## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

Oh i thoght ping is like lag, like when your going uphill or something, but i dont know what it feels like when knocking occurs


----------



## Teknokid (Jun 1, 2002)

I had pinging going up hills and other times that my RPMs were in the mid ranges. I checked the gap on my spark plugs and it turns out they were over gapped. I regapped them and the pinging went away. FYI, my timing is still at 8


----------



## Centurion (Sep 5, 2002)

How do over-gapped plugs cause pinging?


----------



## rkeith (Jan 12, 2003)

when i first got my 200 i ran the cheap stuff not thinking anything abot it but after a while i noticed the engine began pinging.... i switched to the good stuff (93) and shes been runnin great ever since! .... did anyone have the garage do their timing advance? if so, how much did they charge? after reading this, i want mine set to 15 too, DARNIT!!!!


----------



## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

having a shop do it is a waste of money. Read this writeup first and see if you can do it yourself:
http://www.geocities.com/n_dahi/timing/timing.htm

If not, find some local person to do it. A shop will prolly charge $15-30 (if they are even willing to touch that).


----------



## Guest (May 1, 2003)

I just had mine advanced today, I just took it to a local mechanic and they did it for free. With the timing advance and some new sparkers, she's purrin' like a little giraffe...... errr...i mean kitten!


----------

