# Oil! What to use for the track...



## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

1993 Maxima.. VE30DE engine with 213,000 miles (and yes, I'm still tracking it!)

Usually I run Castrol GTX 5w30 in the car and change it every 3000 miles, but I'm wondering if that's too thin for track days...

I spent a weekend at TWS last month, and after the first day on the track I'd burned a full tank of gas and a quart of oil... (woohoo! 7.5 mpg!) 
at least I guess I'm burning the oil on the track.. car doesn't leak, but I was a quart low and I'd only changed it the week before I went to the track.

for those of you with some experience on beating cars up on the track, would it be better to switch to 10w30 or even something thicker?


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## Asura (Aug 27, 2004)

5w30, non-syn: practically burns off in summer, good for colder climate.
10w30/40, non-syn: quite nice, stays where it's supposed to, still rev-able
20w50, non-syn: trying to rev? r u nuts?! 

those are on a low comp. KA24E with 230+K miles though...no leak, crankcase vapor dumped straight to atmosphere.. need to find me a cheap oil catch container..

anyways, if you still have the owner's manual, I think there's a page in there complete with diagram that discuss which oil to use for what temperature range.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

honestly at this point there's nothing left in the manual that actually belongs to this car. 

It says to run 5w30 under just about all conditions, but track use is a completely different story than anything listed in the manual.


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## Asura (Aug 27, 2004)

LOL man... went to town with the mods, eh?

for track, if you insist on 5w30... run oil cooler if haven't already.. otherwise 10w30 sounds good.

in any case.. here's what my manual suggested (may be of use to you):
ambient temp. below -18c: 5w30
above -18c: 10w30
above 10c: 20w50


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Heh.. Nissan NEVER says to run 20w50 in their engines anymore... not since the early 90s, IIRC.. I did once on my old engine and it did more damage than good.. within a week, it was ticking like you wouldn't believe... and I was running full synth back then...

I'll probably just change it to 10w30. I'm in Houston area, so it's always warm here, no need for 5w30 for the winter probably.


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## Asura (Aug 27, 2004)

cool.. well, let's see, i found that info in my 92 owner's manual, and shop manual as well so, yeah..i just got stuck there. but no, i won't argue with you about it.

the 20w50 did, however, stops the lifter ticks in my engine..
back when i was in phoenix, AZ, I always run 10w30 or 10w40, no ticks, but then again i don't race much back then (the bugs haven't biten me back then)


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

I'll tyr some 10-30 or 10-40 this week and see what happens.

funnny thing is even with the 5-30, it was ticking before today's autoX and it's completely silent afterwards.. I think she just likes being ridden hard.


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## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

If your in Texas, I can only imagine with the climate that Redline 10w30 would work wonders.


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## McCoy (Sep 16, 2003)

Matt,

I am currently running 15w50 in my car for lapping events. You do realize that 5w30 and 10w30 have the same viscosity at operating temperatures (30 weight)? It is just at startup when the oil viscosity is different (i.e. 5w for 5w30 and 10w for 10w30) and this will not matter on the track.

You are better off going to a 10w40 or a 15w50 oil. You can run this as long as it doesn't get to cold... well you are living in Texas right


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

mmm yes. it's all still 30wt. me stupid. way too much time standing on the asphalt yesterday. brain is baked...
I'll pick up a case of something today. not bothering with redline. 215,000 miles on the engine so there's no point in paying that when GTX works great.


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## spdracerUT (Jun 11, 2002)

if the weather is even remotely warm, nothing but mobil 1 15w-50. I'm using 0w-40 on my current oil change and my oil was getting too thin after two laps of a 1.x mile road course! This is with a turbo though... N/A, you might be able to get away with 5w/10w-30 if the weather is cool. In cold weather (~30s-40s), 5w-30 should be fine I think....


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*McCoy*: _ “You do realize that 5w30 and 10w30 have the same viscosity at operating temperatures (30 weight)? It is just at startup when the oil viscosity is different (i.e. 5W for 5W-30 and 10W for 10W-30) and this will not matter on the track.”_

True enough in theory but in practice, typical street 5W-30s (dino/conventional) will shear down to a 5W-20 in about 1,500-2,000 miles of street duty. They are primarily formulated for fuel economy and this shearing appears to be by design. The best brands do this these days … even Group II+ base oils like Pennzoil Pure Base and my beloved Chevron Supreme shear down fairly quickly. 

And you say you want to take this stuff to a race track? 

Um, OK .... but I wouldn't. 

An oil pressure gauge would be great here. It'd be interesting to see how much that stuff thins out and watch the pressure fall off throughout the day. Same thing for an oil temperature gauge. How hot does the oil get throughout the session? It'd be nice to know what a raced, 5W-30's pressure and temp would look like in the heat of battle. 

I'd switch to a 10W-30 dino immediately, at the very least. A 10W-40 dino sounds like a reasonable step-up from the XW-30 weights but most of these are, like their 5W-30 bretheren, very shear-unstable these days and will be a 30 weight at operating temp by the 1,500 mile mark ... even assuming ‘normal’ usage.

However, one of the many good 15W-40 heavy-duty engine oils would probably be a great mineral/dino/conventional choice for this type of duty. A little heavier than normal, stable formulation which will stay in grade longer, heavy-duty additive packages including more detergents, dispersants and barrier anti-wear additives. Hard to beat these as a class of lubricants. Their only failing is that they seem to cost users a bit of MPG depending on the application. I’d love to see some dyno testing to see if this effect also reduces power by 1-3%. 

Among the 15W-40s, I used to like Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40 a lot but they recently took the moly out of the formula.  Delo400 or probably any of these would do a fine job. I use Schaeffer Supreme 7000 15W-40 synthetic blend in all my lawn and garden equipment because most of them are air-cooled and are brutal on multi-viscosity oils. It’s a _real_ Group II+ oil with something like 20% Group IV PAO (_real_ synthetic and ~200PPM of moly for excellent metal-to-metal protection. If you can find it locally or don’t mind going mail-order, it’s a super high-performance oil choice … and only $3 per quart. 

Among synthetic passenger car oils, Consider Red Line 10W-30, 10W-40 or Mobil 1 15W-50 which is a somewhat thin 50 weight at temp. Avoid the rip-off Group III oils labeled as "synthetic" (most mass market brands of oil other than Mobil 1). Higher priced versions of Amsoil are good and Royal Purple makes a racing 15W-40 which has enough detergents for double duty (street & racetrack). Avoid their shear-prone street grades. Synergen, Motul, NEO and others have top notch reps but I haven’t really dealt with them at all.

Finally, you could and should do a UOA (search this forum using "UOA" to see samples of these tests) to see how your oils is working out. Whatever you choose, do at least 2 runs on the same oil before having a sample tested by a lab.

_Edited the same day to make it a more complete & detailed answer. _


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## McCoy (Sep 16, 2003)

Bror Jace said:


> True enough in theory but in practice, typical street 5W-30s (dino/conventional) will shear down to a 5W-20 in about 1,500-2,000 miles of street duty. They are primarily formulated for fuel economy and this shearing appears to be by design. The best brands do this these days … even Group II+ base oils like Pennzoil Pure Base and my beloved Chevron Supreme shear down fairly quickly.
> 
> And you say you want to take this stuff to a race track?
> 
> Um, OK .... but I wouldn't.


I agree with you on this one, I suggested a 15W-50 oil. I personally run Mobil1 syn 15W-50 and would not go to anything less... I have turboed my stock motor and have cooling issues as it is.



> I'd switch to a 10W-30 dino immediately, at the very least. A 10W-40 dino sounds like a reasonable step-up from the XW-30 weights but most of these are, like their 5W-30 bretheren, very shear-unstable these days and will be a 30 weight at operating temp by the 1,500 mile mark ... even assuming ‘normal’ usage.


Again I agree if the car is not heavily modified... I would still suggest to go the safest route... 15W-50  



> However, one of the many good 15W-40 heavy-duty engine oils would probably be a great mineral/dino/conventional choice for this type of duty. A little heavier than normal, ...... Their only failing is that they seem to cost users a bit of MPG depending on the application. I’d love to see some dyno testing to see if this effect also reduces power by 1-3%.


I can live with the 1-3% loss. The SR20 motor has issues with spun bearing due to low oil pressure. The heavy oils help here, what is your motor worth to you?


Bror, everything you posted here was good information, thanks for sharing this. Most of my knowledge is from first hand experience and/or listening to other people that do currently attend track events.


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## MShorten (Jul 19, 2004)

Bror Jace said:


> *McCoy*: Among synthetic passenger car oils, Consider Red Line 10W-30, 10W-40 or Mobil 1 15W-50 which is a somewhat thin 50 weight at temp. Avoid the rip-off Group III oils labeled as "synthetic" (most mass market brands of oil other than Mobil 1). Higher priced versions of Amsoil are good and Royal Purple makes a racing 15W-40 which has enough detergents for double duty (street & racetrack). Avoid their shear-prone street grades. Synergen, Motul, NEO and others have top notch reps but I haven’t really dealt with them at all.


Really good info, thanks! I was just about to make the switch to synth and was going to put in 10W30. I run on an oval track, stock car racing. I'm going to have to do some research on the oil issue, but I'll try the 15W-50 and see how that works.

Regards,
Michael


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_ “*Bror*, everything you posted here was good information, thanks for sharing this. Most of my knowledge is from first hand experience and/or listening to other people that do currently attend track events.”_

*McCoy*, despite the way I began, all of that post of mine above was not directed at you. Your comment above jarred me into writing a response about multi-viscosity oil shear ... then I started rambling. 

I think your recommendation of M1 15W-50 is a good one. It’s not as thick as 20W50s which would be a serious drag on the motor until they sheared down. M1 15W-50 is really like a 15W-45 and it’s pretty shear stable so that makes it a pretty good general-purpose high performance oil.

I really just wanted to caution people that current oils (especially API “starburst” oils) are formulated with the EPA heavily in mind and are not really designed for anything “heavy-duty” or “high performance.”

Starburst oils (“API approved”) are formulated with weaker and weaker amounts of the traditional barrier anti-wear additive ZDDP (zinc dialkdithiophosphate). This started with SJ, I believe, and continues with SL and the forthcoming SM (whenever that spec’s due out). Augmenting what little ZDDP starburst oils still have (down from about 1,200-1,500PPM to about 800PPM - both zinc and phosphorous separately) is soluble moly (molybdenum dialkdithiocarbamate – different from moly disulphide which is a solid) and or boron.

Compounding the problem is that these new oils seem to be designed to shear quite quickly. A thinner oil means less hydrodynamic drag which means a smidgeon more fuel economy. Nationwide, this probably means thousands of barrels of oil saved each day. That’s why Honda and Ford both recommend these ultra-lightweight oils.

Now the 5W-20 oils I’ve seen tested are heavily fortified with molybdenum (Honda OEM, Pennzoil, Mobil 1 0W-20, Castrol GTX, etc …) or boron (Motorcraft). In either case, they seem to be working well in the engines designed with them because some UOAs I’ve seen look absolutely superb. But, of course that’s street duty and even aggressive street driving doesn’t punish a motor like an unrestricted road course with around half your time spent at WOT. 

Sheared down, modern 5W-30 oils will gradually come back into grade over time (through oxidation, etc …) and may be a 30 weight again by the 5,000-6,000 mile mark. But by this time, their ability to lubricate is greatly diminished and wear will accelerate until the oil is drained and re-filled with new.

_ “I can live with the 1-3% loss. The SR20 motor has issues with spun bearing due to low oil pressure. The heavy oils help here, what is your motor worth to you?”_

Yeah, this reminds me of the line: “Speed is just a question of money. How fast do you wanna go??” 

Professional race teams might gladly trade 50% of their engine life for 2-3% more horsepower. For the occasional weekend (road) warrior, however, this would be pretty foolish. 

Edit: Typos only.


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## McCoy (Sep 16, 2003)

Bror Jace said:


> *McCoy*, despite the way I began, all of that post of mine above was not directed at you. Your comment above jarred me into writing a response about multi-viscosity oil shear ... then I started rambling.


It's OK, I did not take offense by anything you said. You have taught me a few new things today about oil, I thank you for that! 



> Yeah, this reminds me of the line: “Speed is just a question of money. How fast do you wanna go?”[/i] Professional race times might gladly trade 50% of their engine life for 2-3% more horsepower. For the occasional weekend (road) warrior, however, this would be pretty foolish.


You made a good point here, myself being newly married and with plans to have a small family, knowing that I will not break the car on the track is a peaceful thought.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Thanks for the responses. I had already bought a case of GTX 10w-40 and changed the oil in the beast.

The good news is that after the 500 mile drive to the track, full day on the track, and the 500 mile home, it doesn't appear to have lost a drop, and it's still pretty clear. with the 5w-30, I would burn off a quart in a day of tracking the car, let alone the drive there and back.. 
I'll see how the 10w-40 lasts here, as I've got another event in about a week and after that I'll be about 2500 miles.

I'll dump it out and run another cycle through and send the second one to Blackstone and see what they say.
Of course, I had some samples tested a few years ago using a couple different Valvoline products (Max life, then syntec).. both of them showed pretty grim results and Blackstone pretty much said the engine (at 160,000 miles) wasn't going to last a lot longer. They suggested to go to Castrol GTX 5w-30, as many other Nissans were having very good results with it.. In the 3 years and 50k miles since then, the car has gained about 25hp and dropped 1/2 second at the drag strip with the only mod being an aluminum flywheel. (and I highly doubt a flywheel will add 25hp on the dyno!) It smokes a bit on startup on colder mornings, but otherwise the thing runs great. 

Now I'm rambling, but I appreciate the information. This engine is too old and worn out for synthetics (and the $$ is a factor too). for how often I change it (2000-3500 miles, depending on how track days fall into place. I make sure there's less than 2000 miles on the oil if I take it to the track. If I don't run any events on it, I'll run it to 3500 miles.). Sooo, there's no point in running a full synth in this engine with these oil change intervals. Any more than that and I start to see engine wear skyrocket (metals present in the oil) according to Blackstone.

I'll finish off this case of GTX and see where to go from there.

Have you heard much about the Castrol GP racing oils? They're avail in SAE 30,40,50... With my bad experiences with the Valvoline's specialty oils breaking down quickly and having poor additive packages already, I'm a little wary of swapping to some of these kinds of things.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

Thanks *McCoy*. If you’re really interested in knowing more about oil and lubricants, check out :

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

At that place I am just another poster, not any kind of “oil expert.” 

*Matt93SE*, Lots of bits I’d like to respond to and comment on:

The fact the 5W-30 was burning off so quickly is a pretty good clue that this stuff isn’t at all suited to track duty. 

Castrol GTX 10W-40 should be fine … providing that you keep the interval relatively short (and you will). Like I said, that stuff will shear down to a 30 weight . However, even a 30 weight isn’t a bad thing. The only downside is the viscosity index improvers (VII) which are broken down could begin to form sludge inside the motor. However, if the drain interval is short, this is pretty-much a non-issue. A fairly fresh detergent & dispersant package will keep this junk in suspension and it will exit harmlessly at the time of an oil change.

I’d love to see what Blackstone has to say about the used 10W-40. Glad to see some here using a lab like Blackstone without my urging. 

_“I had some (oil) samples tested a few years ago using a couple different Valvoline products (Max Life, then Syntec).. both of them showed pretty grim results …”_

I assume you mean Valvoline Synpower? (Syntec is Castrol’s synthetic brand) Anyway, I am not surprised you were disappointed with Valvoline’s products. I was too, especially with Synpower. My ’95 Civic never consumed a drop of oil in 100,000 miles then a switch to Valvoline Synpower (it was on sale  ) and it was consuming almost a quart in 5,000 miles. Took 2 runs using Red Line Oil to get it back to zero consumption. 

I actually _liked_ the early version of Max-Life. It was a blend of Group II mineral, Group V synthetic ester (10-15%) and a whopping dose of molybdenum (250-300PPM). Not bad for about $2 per quart and a local Walmart (obviously over-stocked) was getting rid of 5 quart jugs for $5.  This stuff (actually a synthetic blend, though not advertised as such) flowed well in the winter and quieted-down noisy valvetrains and even severe piston-slap. Then, a couple years ago, they pulled the moly out of the formula and the best advantages disappeared. 

_“(Blackstone) suggested to go to Castrol GTX 5W-30, as many other Nissans were having very good results with it.. In the 3 years and 50k miles since then, the car has gained about 25hp and dropped 1/2 second at the drag strip with the only mod being an aluminum flywheel.”_

It’s hard to argue with your results but I find it kind of odd that Castrol GTX would make that much of a difference. They’ve had an aggressive ad campaign for decades targeting “high performance” drivers, but their formula(s) are about average among the major brands and I’d still put them below Pennzoil and Chevron among conventional oils (Group II base vs. Group II+ base). Still, Castrol’s not a _bad_ oil brand by any stretch of the imagination. 

_“Have you heard much about the Castrol GP racing oils? They're available in SAE 30,40,50 ... With my bad experiences with the Valvoline's specialty oils breaking down quickly and having poor additive packages already, I'm a little wary of swapping to some of these kinds of things.”_

Not really. I think that most mineral straight-weights are seriously old-school and I’ve been able to find an alternative multi-viscosity oils of various brands/weights to fill any need I can think of, even air-cooled engines which are absolute murder on oil. My guess is these "GP Racing" oils are nothing too special. _Maybe_ they have additional ZDDP (and perhaps even a little moly nowadays) but other than that they are probably just a decent Group I or Group II mineral oil. Their higher-than-average price probably reflects the fact that these oils are made, distributed and sold in smaller batches. Not because they are of “higher quality” (but that’s mostly a guess on my part). Still, they get the job done and won't thin out without serious fuel dilution. Question is, would other oils do the same job better? Hard to say and even UOAs are 100% conclusive.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

For the last year or more, I'd been saying that one of the heavier (and cheaper!) oils I liked for high-performance applications was Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40. The dual-rated gas/diesel oils have greater amounts of detergents in them along with more barrier wear protection (zinc phosphate, moly and/or boron) if/when the hydrodynamic oil film fails. The engine should then wear less and remain cleaner (internally) longer.

But just when I thought I had found one of the best heavy-duty/high performance oils going, the fools removed the nearly 200ppm of molybdenum from the formula about 6-8 months ago.  There had been some discussion within the industry that this stuff does more harm than good in certain diesel engines over tens of thousands of miles of use. 

Cummins had a long standing service bulletin against the use of molybdenum in their engines. Of course this doesn't make any sense anymore as the oil Cummins now _specifically_ recommends for their engines is Valvoline’s Blue 15W-40 which contains moly. 

Most of us at BITOG felt the anti-moly sentiment was directed to the suspended solid form molybdenum disulphide (usually found in gear oils, greases and some additives) and not the soluble/liquid moly found for many years in quality motor oils like Red Line and Schaeffer.

And this is contrary to the industry trend as nearly _all_ motor oils have added soluble moly to their formula over the past 3 years … usually 50 to 100ppm.

Anyway, it looks like the good folks at Chevron have picked up the moly ball and are running with it. The latest version of Delo400 now has about 200ppm of the stuff! 

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000240;p=1#000012

Shweet!  Long live Delo400!


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