# I want to tighten my handeling on a 240sx (S13)



## 240North60 (Aug 18, 2004)

I'd also like to keep more of the stock appearance and ride quality. Basically I want sparper turn-in and lose the body roll/tail whipping.

My thoughts were to:
-Replace suspension bushings with poly all-round (I don't mind creaking/squeaking)
-Move to a 205/50r15 v-rated tire (currently a 205/60r15 touring tire)
-play with the alignment for a little more agressive setup.
-strut tower bar

I'm going to keep the stock dampers/springs for now because overall I'm happy with and have confidence in the engineers decisions at Nissan who designed the car's suspension. The above noted thoughts are what I believe to be supple changes in how the car will react to newton's first law of motion.

I haven't read much about the "Tuners" out there for Nissan, I assume Stillen is to Nissan as Neuspeed is to VW? Dinan to BMW? AMG to Mercedes? I'm so not into rice so please advise me on what to keep away from... I'm reluctant to go by what is written in "Tuner Mags" i.e. SCC as I realize most of their revenue comes from advertisement. I want to hear from hardcore nissan enthusiasts what they've tried and what works...

I'm excited in the fact that I can play with the alignment setting more with the RWD platform and not effect traction so much as with a FWD car.

I would entertain the idea of moving to a stiffer spring/damper combo but have read much about negative effects of lowering a car such that you loose suspension travel and run on the bumpstops too much. I noted that Tein makes a pro rate spring with minimal lowering. I also have no desire to go with a To'leak'o shock as I've had bad experiences with them... Don't know much about the Japanise brands as all my previous driving/wrenching experiences are with VW & BMW's. I really like Koni's (on my BMW) and Bilsteins weren't bad on the Scirocco. As it stands right now my 3'er way out performs my 240 in handeling but I'm sure (and hopefull) that I can reverse this.


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## Drift Machine (Aug 22, 2004)

Replacing all the bushings is a great idea, especiall since they are over a decade old. But I noticed a huge difference just by adding strut tower braces in the front and rear, it was the first thing I did to my car's suspension. Sway bars will also help you a great deal, my car felt tottally different after I put on my suspension technique sway bars.


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## mudder (Aug 9, 2004)

Your ideas are sound. Larger sways front and rear would be nice as would the strut bars. You can get good handling from a good tire and wheel combo, 17x7 would be plenty so long as they aren't too heavy. 

I'm considering the same things on my own S13 and have decided to go with F/R strut bars, Eibach pro kit springs, and tokico struts to start with. I've heard nothing but good things about these components and it won't break the bank. I'm going to wait on wheels and tires for a while since winter is coming and I'll put some studs on in just a couple months.


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## Wont Be Beat (Sep 20, 2002)

Jason,

I like you. I like how you put your post together and your concepts and ideas. You have what most are missing in the internet message forum world: common sense and a good, humble attitude.

I know I'm really no one to you, so you dont necessarily need to listen to what I have to say, but take it from me, who has been autocrossing for 2 years, worked in pits at NASA events and has wrenched on many cars.

First let me explain handling. There is actual handling: scientific data/testing ie skip pad, slalom, track times, and there is percieved handling: the butt dyno, how the car feels, how its balanced and how much roll resistance the car has. The question is, which are you looking to achieve? actual or percieved handling?

I will give you some general info.

The single most dramatic improvment (and easiest and one of the cheaper ones) is tires. Sticky performance tires have opposing results when it comes to actual and percieved handle. They will generate better scientific numbers, while giving you the perception of increased body roll. If you can afford to do so because they are so soft and wear in 15,000 miles, get Falken Azenis. They are the ultimate in cheap grip and have really solid sidewalls. A close second are Kumho MX. Notice I didnt say ultimate grip and dynamics. If you want a slightly harder compound tire that will last about 30,000 miles if used correctly, look into the Yokahama AVS ES100. This is actually the next tires I'm looking into for my car. I have also had A LOT of exprience on Kumho Ecsta Supra 712 and I think they are great, especially in the rain and for the money: great value.

The next most dramatic improvement is dampers. You need to realize that Nissan engineers primarily designed the car for your Mom (no offense, just trying give you a target market). Secondarily, they designed the dampers to be cheap. I would really look into new dampers (if yours are OEM). You will honestly be very surprised at the difference (even without springs). Also, looking into something adjustable. I've had as much experience with KYB AGX, as I've had with Kumho Ecsta Supra 712. They are a great value, and a great performer. They are adjustable in a few seconds. I find this invaluable. Another choice might be the self-adjust Bilstein HD. I believe Koni Yellows may be a bit overkill in your situation and they are pricey, but great shocks as well.

Primarily, my experience is with FWD cars where the rule of thumb is to leave the front swaybar alone, and upgrade the rear. I know this varies greatly for your application but it might be an idea to entertain depending on how you like the balance of your car; since most cars (even RWD) have natural understeer built in. Swaybars are definetly an easy and economical way to go. If money is an issue, put these before dampers.

Springs. A touchy subject for me. I'll put it bluntly: I dont like any off the shelf spring on the market because they are designed for pussies. Companies keep themselves protected by offering springs that induce more understeer. If you want to dramatically reduce body roll, springs are your best bet. But the solution is not OTS springs. Give a call to ground control. They will give you 2 options. Coilvers sleeves (which, as you know are height adjustable) WITH CUSTOM SPRING RATES, or custom built springs. Either path isnt too costly, but can yeild great results. With custom built springs, you need to make sure you know the demensions exactly, and they will build you a spring. Order up a rate that matches you needs, balance, and driving style, and your good to go.

Bushings. I dont have as much experience with bushings as I have with the rest of these topics. From what I understand, intalling the entire kit is a pretty big difference in percieved handle. I've never done it because its a lot of work that I dont have time for at this point. Also, look into steering rack bushings: this might give you a huge kick in the butt in the perceived handling department. What you must understand is that perceieved handling can make you more confident and aware and turn into actual handling.

Tie bars. Simple concept. Dont think too much into it. Dont buy anything with hinges. Dont expect dramatic results. Look into Neuspeed.

Alignment settings is a very complex topic and I would need to know much more about your setup, prefferences, applications, and driving style before I can comment on this.

This was a brief FYI on basic street handling. There is much more to it. Any questions?


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Wont Be Beat hit it right on the head.

The only issue I see with his statement is about tie bars. there is a HUGE difference in the turn-in and response of the car if you start strengthening the frame on the car. I've been doing some work on them for most Nissans, and I built some braces for the S14 as well. All of them noticed dramatic improvements in handling (well perceived handling as is mentioned above). since we didn't do any skidpad testing on them, I can't say a whole lot- but with better turn in response and driver confidence in the car, you can do a lot with actual performance because you can be more consistent while driving and not worry about having to pitch the car a certain way to set the suspension before entering a corner.

But the FIRST thing that you need to change is the shocks and the bushings. those are both wear items, and your car is 10 years old. most likely your strut rod bushings are completely shot, and your control arm bushings are almost gone. replace those with poly bushings (which don't squeak if installed properly) or even use new OEM bushings and you'll see a huge difference in handling..
the shocks are in the same boat. the ones on the SE were pretty nice when the car was new, but that was 100k+ miles ago. they're definitely shot. Tokico offers a lifetime warranty on their struts and I've used it twice on my Maximas. I've since upgraded to Koni since I'm running ground control type coilovers, but the tokicos I had never had a problem with leakage or softening.. I just sent them in when I switched cars and had them "freshen them up" under warranty. (yeah, that's not the intent of the warranty, but big corporate won't notice one set of shocks.  )..

I'm not sure of what brands are out there for coilovers and shocks on the 240, but you can do a LOT better with some aftermarket ones and still maintain a very civil ride.
many of the brands you see in SCC are okay- but you have to read through the hype. you DEFINITELY get what you pay for, and a $99 set of "coilovers" is not going to be the same as a set of Tein.


I thnk you're on the right track, but there are always a few misconceptions out there- especially when switching brands of cars. VW and BMW brands and setups are much different than Nissan...


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## Wont Be Beat (Sep 20, 2002)

Matt93SE said:


> Wont Be Beat hit it right on the head.
> 
> The only issue I see with his statement is about tie bars. there is a HUGE difference in the turn-in and response of the car if you start strengthening the frame on the car.


I guess the difference here is that I'm very used to working with upper control arm (A-arm) cars; primarily Hondas. Cars with this type of suspension benifit much less from shock tower tie bars. Also, Hondas tend to have stronger and more rigid frames/chassis/bodies than other cars to begin with. Though I have worked on cars with strut-type suspensions, I cannot say for sure what benifits the owners saw. But my statement about them not having hinges is dead-on-balls accurate.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Definitely. why put a hinge on something that's not supposed to move? 
heim joint is one thing, but a hinge? uhhhhhh. might as well hold that thing together with nails because the hinge pin is just going to shear one of these days.
the bars I build don't have any moving parts- they shouldn't, it's a brace. you wouldn't believe the handling difference a few frame reinfocrements make on these cars.

I used to not even be able to close my doors when I had the front of the car on jackstands. after a few braces from myself and Warpspeed performance, I can balance the car on three jackstands, and the fourth corner barely flexes 1/8" when I stick a jack on it.. it used to be closer to 1/2".


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## 240North60 (Aug 18, 2004)

Thanks for the great responces, I never knew honda guys could be so knowledgeable  
I don't have time to reply at the moment but I have some more comments/ questions for later.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

heh.. not all Honda guys are retards.. just the good majority of them.


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## Wont Be Beat (Sep 20, 2002)

Thanks, but its just too bad I wont be coming back here anymore. You guys have your 'gurus' here, enjoy them and jump on their bandwagons.

http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=68528


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Just remember to take everything with a grain of salt. MYoung knows his stuff. I know a fair amount and I'm learning every day, but I'm nowhere near his caliber.

The suggestions in that thread deal more with pothole dodging than bottoming out in a corner at the track.. I've done both, not cool... BUT with a progessively designed bumpstop, you don't have the nasty snap oversteer problems that happen when you bottom out. it's still there, but not nearly as bad. believe it or not, there is a LOT of technology in those guys and it DOES make a difference.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Wont Be Beat said:


> Thanks, but its just too bad I wont be coming back here anymore. You guys have your 'gurus' here, enjoy them and jump on their bandwagons.
> 
> http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=68528


That's a shame.. you get called out on something you state as being fact, that you have very little knowledge of, your opinion is based on nothing but speculation, which was wrong. Then instead of admitting wrong you run away and post this on another thread. Well with that type of maturity, good riddence. Maybe the guys on the Accord site never question your all knowing speculations.. ... In the future please do a little research on the topic before you completely dismiss it...especially if you are passing this information to others as fact... or at least admit you were wrong and be a man about it.


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## Wont Be Beat (Sep 20, 2002)

I wasnt wrong in anything I said--in fact, I inquired about to find out more about it. I just dismissed the concept as a bandaid instead of a solution. So do me a favor and stop trying to pick apart every word I write and try to prove me wrong and make yourself look better. This is the only time I will ask.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

You're butting heads against the wrong person, man... he has no need to pick apart anything you say.. all he has to do is click the 'delete post' button and it's gone. 

like I said above.. just take everything with a grain of salt. if someone corrects you (or even flames you for that matter), just take it and go on. life is simpler if you don't freak out about it and start name calling. we can all learn from each other, so just consider it something you didn't know before and go on instead of trying to argue with them.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Wont Be Beat said:


> So do me a favor and stop trying to pick apart every word I write and try to prove me wrong and make yourself look better. This is the only time I will ask.


Then choose your words more carefully. All we have to go on are your words. The only time you will ask??? Is that some sort of threat?

The question was regrading OEM style hard rubber bumpstops vs Koni Microcellular Urethane Bumpstops.




myoung said:


> _(KYB) -_ and no where near as good as the Koni bump stops.





Wont Be Beat said:


> Nowhere near as good? They're bump stops! How 'good' do they need to be? Are bump stops so highly engineered now that they have spring rates and thrust angles and god know what other engineering terms I dont even know?


So now how did we take your words wrong? Since you decided to come back..Please explain.

It's not about making myself look better. Its about not allowing you to pass on false or misleading information to other members. 

Most people would simply say "Cool, did not know that..thanks for the info!" 

..not only do you not admit you knew nothing about KONI bumpstops, but you made it worse by saying Hondas have less wheel travel than B14 Nissans when we tried to explain to you the advantages of these with a lowered B14... instead of backing out gracefully you opened your mouth and inserted your foot even further.

Which you seem to be doing again here with a threat.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Matt93SE said:


> just take everything with a grain of salt. if someone corrects you (or even flames you for that matter), just take it and go on. life is simpler if you don't freak out about it and start name calling. we can all learn from each other, so just consider it something you didn't know before and go on instead of trying to argue with them.


exactly!!!


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## Wont Be Beat (Sep 20, 2002)

Again, nothing I said is false, and I did not start name calling. The thing about my grandfather is because thats actually how you sound like. I SAID NOTHING BAD ABOUT KONI BUMPSTOPS. I ASKED ABOUT THEM--IN MY OWN SPECIAL WAY.

Ok, you want me to do what you want? Ok, your absolutely right, your the king of bumpstops and everything else in general. Is that what you want? Do you want everyone that reads something new to say "wow, I didnt know that?" Would that make you feel better? Honestly, I'm not trying to be like a dick but thats the message I'm getting. I used to be just like you a while ago.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Wont Be Beat said:


> Again, nothing I said is false, and I did not start name calling. The thing about my grandfather is because thats actually how you sound like. I SAID NOTHING BAD ABOUT KONI BUMPSTOPS. I ASKED ABOUT THEM--IN MY OWN SPECIAL WAY.
> 
> Ok, you want me to do what you want? Ok, your absolutely right, your the king of bumpstops and everything else in general. Is that what you want? Do you want everyone that reads something new to say "wow, I didnt know that?" Would that make you feel better? Honestly, I'm not trying to be like a dick but thats the message I'm getting. I used to be just like you a while ago.


 Whatever... 

your "honest" attempt at not being a dick isn't working very well.

and what exactly does "I used to be just like you a while ago" mean?


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

myoung said:


> and what exactly does "I used to be just like you a while ago" mean?


Oh wait.. maybe I do understand this statement. 

So you also dislike it when people come to the Nissan related forum and give out bad info then try to wiggle out of it with insults.

Hmmmm wonder how Accord drivers would feel about me if I went to their forum and acted like an expert about something I had very limited knowledge of? The argued about it.


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## Asura (Aug 27, 2004)

hey guys, guys, chill down please.. personal problem should be discussed through PM..IMO.


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## Wont Be Beat (Sep 20, 2002)

Yeah, I'm done posting here.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Mmmm.. my favorite smell. panty wads.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Wont Be Beat said:


> Yeah, I'm done posting here.


you'll be so missed


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