# Coupe Vs. Hatchback



## EP240SX (Nov 8, 2004)

Now I have a 91 240sx Coupe. Im planning on buying a hatchback as well. Now the thing that Im wondering is which one i should race and which one use for show. Any opinions?

On the hatchback I plan the S15 headlight conversion. On my coupe I just dont want pop-up headlights and just want headlights like the 300zx for example (if anyone knows where i can find the kit for non pop up headlights let me know) 

The rest really is up for grabs and I dont know which one to use for what. :-\

Any suggestions on which one for what use?


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## zlr101 (Nov 17, 2003)

EP240SX said:


> Now I have a 91 240sx Coupe. Im planning on buying a hatchback as well. Now the thing that Im wondering is which one i should race and which one use for show. Any opinions?
> 
> On the hatchback I plan the S15 headlight conversion. On my coupe I just dont want pop-up headlights and just want headlights like the 300zx for example (if anyone knows where i can find the kit for non pop up headlights let me know)
> 
> ...


 race the coupe it is lighter, heavy throttle has a kit east bear i think or you could get a s13 nose for the coupe.


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## 2Fass240us (Aug 2, 2004)

zlr101 said:


> race the coupe it is lighter, heavy throttle has a kit east bear i think or you could get a s13 nose for the coupe.


It is my opinion that the weight is negligible for a mostly-gutted car. It is also my opinion that a hatch will be stiffer once caged because the hatch area allows for more cage options to add stiffness.

Aesthetic Opinions:
I am not so sure a S13 would make a good show car without dropping an ass of money on it, but I would go coupe for the show car because a lot of people enjoy the coupe with the Silvia front end. Projector or non-projector headlights would be the next question. And if projector, how many? At first I liked the triple-projector lamps, but I have started to lean towards the non-projector units.

If you don't get a Silvia front end, go with the East Bear units. IMO, the S15 front end doesn't even look right on the S14, much less the S13. I've seen it on some S13's, and it looks like ass. :thumbdwn:


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## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

they do make projectors for the flip up's as well but id say fastback for race simpy cuz like the guy above me said you can cage it more and all that and the coupe for show i guess but i personly like the fb more for show........... so there inlies a problem lol its all personal preferance :cheers:


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## zlr101 (Nov 17, 2003)

the fastbacks i think look better that is why i would race the coupe. I have seen the s15 headlights on a widebody hatch that didnt look bad but yeah i would say he spent alot of $$$.


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## ronaldo (Feb 23, 2004)

coupe for racing for sure, that stuff about being able to add more cage in a hatch hence being stiffer, sounds like non sense, the coupe already is more rigid and with a a cage in it, will feel even tighter.. as for the 15 front, if were you i would say do the east bay light on the hatch and s13 front on the coupe


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## DelphicReason (Oct 8, 2004)

Definitely use the coupe for racing... The hatch is more ricer firendly, so it tends to do better in shows... I'm also planning on getting a hatch as well, but I will be going Sileighty with that project. I will be going with a Kouki RPS13 front nose on my coupe...


Good luck with your projects...


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## Kelso (Apr 29, 2003)

well you guys, when your talking about performance, your opinion doesnt matter. you people should search and educate yourselves before making comments making somebody go in the wrong direction.

coupe for race, no question. it is stiffer, it is lighter, and even when getted, still would be lighter. and that cage thing above, total BS.

the only opinion you can use hear is to say that the fastback looks better anyways and you should use that for show, but whats the point in show cars?

somebidy was talking about an s14. i dont know why...there are s13 coupes and fastbacks so wtf?
the lights your looking for are the east bear lights. s13 and s15 and s14 conversions can all be very nice looking on any 240.


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## rubin (Jan 9, 2004)

heres a page with some pics of the projector lights
http://www.srownersclub.com/project_cars/jeff.asp


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## 240luvr (Oct 8, 2004)

I would definitly think that the coupe would be lighter. So I would run the coupe for races. But as for the show car, my problem is, I hate cars that are "all show no go", so I agree w/ Kelso in saying, "what's the point in show cars?" Cars are built do drive, not to sit on a trailor, then a show room floor...
just make em' both fast as all hell...


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## DaCheat (Nov 4, 2004)

I don't know very much about racing, and personally I own an s13 Hatchback and I plan on making it go faster with some suspension upgrades, and to lower the car a bit but I just want to make a nice daily driver that I could bring to shows from time to time.
From what i've seen there is so much more you can do with a coupe, ex ample remove the back seat, custom install a sound and light system, this would be great for shows, and i think you have more room and more options to work with when it comes to a Hatchback/Fastback for show.


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## BurnZ_240sx (May 1, 2004)

zlr101 said:


> race the coupe it is lighter, heavy throttle has a kit east bear i think or you could get a s13 nose for the coupe.


that east bear kit is bad, but i have a 92 coupe... do you think it will look like shit if i get that kit for it, and could i even do it?


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## zlr101 (Nov 17, 2003)

BurnZ_240sx said:


> that east bear kit is bad, but i have a 92 coupe... do you think it will look like shit if i get that kit for it, and could i even do it?


 If i had a coupe i would look around for s13 nose conversion if you want to build it for cheaper go with non-projectors. I dont have the kit but i would think it would be simple mostly wiring i am sure you could ask the people at heavy throttle they seem to be very helpful.


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## EP240SX (Nov 8, 2004)

Hmm well the East Bear kit I dont like. The headlights are too big. Theres another kit just like it that i found that i like more cuase the lights are smaller. Now the problem with both is that they dont have the glass/plastic shield on them. I guess ima have to fabricate the headlights. 

Actually i love the S15 conversion on the fastback. So for sure im going to do that with the fb. The coupe being lighter is true and better for racing. I love show cars, but thats true why show and no go. Thats not going to be my case. Both cars will have balls. One will also have a rb25det swap. hopefully and with time. Yet again dont know which one. But thats alot of $$ so i want to have both fixed up first, just dont know which one to do yet. The fb has more room for a bitching custom sound system. But im already working on the coupe looking nicer. But taking out the back seat from the coupe I can do the same. The only thing is that i dont think im going to do the s13 conversion. Looks nice but I like the way mine looks as it is. Just needs them headlights. I guess I'm just going to have to decide it all when i buy the fastback. lol.

Thanks for the suggestions. If anyone has pics or seen pics online of both with conversions and show set up lets me know. If i see a few show cars i can decide which one i want to use for either. Cuase i have seen alot of the drift cars and honestly both look fucking sweet on the track. sileighty, fastback, and 240sx coupe. And ive seen all of them with all conversions. All look fucking sweet but probably the s13 is probably the sweetest looking one.


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## mille-16i (Jun 16, 2004)

I saw a pic an the net were a person took silvia non projector lights and made a lights like the east bear and put the glass over them that was pure magic. If I could figure out how to post the pic I would. But that is an opition if you wanted something alitle dif. As for the show car go with the H/B way better looking my opinion is that nissan should have tossed the silvia and stuck with the 180 look in the s14-15


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## mille-16i (Jun 16, 2004)

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## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

mille-16i said:


> I saw a pic an the net were a person took silvia non projector lights and made a lights like the east bear and put the glass over them that was pure magic. If I could figure out how to post the pic I would. But that is an opition if you wanted something alitle dif. As for the show car go with the H/B way better looking my opinion is that nissan should have tossed the silvia and stuck with the 180 look in the s14-15


up in the tool bar (where the BOLD/UNDERLINE options are) there is a button that looks like a a picture of mountains clink on it then post the url of the pic :thumbup: , but why hasnt anyone suggested a 180sx convertion on the fastback? i like the flip up lights its different, i guess i can understand why its no good for racing but are u really going fast enuff to creat drag if you on a road course?


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## ronaldo (Feb 23, 2004)

he can just keep em closed...


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## mille-16i (Jun 16, 2004)

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jamieandty/detail?.dir=/8c73&.dnm=ec04.jpg

Hey if this don't give me a break I am a helluva lot better with cars then I am with computers. :dumbass:
If you type in the url it will give you the pic I think it looks prety good


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## 2Fass240us (Aug 2, 2004)

Kelso said:


> well you guys, when your talking about performance, your opinion doesnt matter. you people should search and educate yourselves before making comments making somebody go in the wrong direction.


Who are you referring to?



Kelso said:


> coupe for race, no question. it is stiffer, it is lighter, and even when getted, still would be lighter. and that cage thing above, total BS.





2Fass240us said:


> It is also my opinion that a hatch will be stiffer once caged because the hatch area allows for more cage options to add stiffness.


Notice I said "it is my opinion." Opinions aren't wrong. :dumbass: I guess a ME & part-time racecar builder's opinion doesn't count for much in your book though. I have a completely-gutted hatch, and it is my _opinion_ that because there's more room, you can stiffen it up more effectively.









It is also my _opinion_ that a true racecar's weight is to some degree independent of the weight of the factory chassis. My car'll probably weigh ~2300 pounds when I get done. Oh wait...nevermind...that's my opinion...and those can be wrong. :loser: 

A 93 SE coupe weighs 2712 pounds, whereas a 93 SE FB weighs 2747. The thing that makes me laugh about the "coupe is lighter" statement is that no one stops to think that some of the extra 35 pounds (wow, that's a lot  ) might be from Supuh HICAS. If you've ever completely torn out your HICAS system (which I doubt Kelso has), then you'd know that quite a bit of this 35 pounds is from HICAS.


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## Kelso (Apr 29, 2003)

not all 240's have hicas dumbass. honestly i think the fastback is a better car because i have one and dont like coupes much but when your going for all out performance, coupe is the shit.

your opinion doesnt matter because it isnt backed up by facts and saying that something WILL BE stiffer is not an opinion, you are making a statement but its not facual becuase when the coupe is completely gutted too, it can be caged just as good if not better. so it starts off stiffer, and has the potential to be ending stiffer, so your opinion on the matter was wrong.

by the way i realize you said "my opinion" because i stated "your opinion doesnt matter". so when talking about facts, your opinion means nothing.

you know, both coupes and fastbacks can have hicas so again if you remove thehicas on one (assuming it has it to begin with) and remove it from the other, they wil again have an equal ratio of weight. 

saying your car will probably weigh 2300 pounds is a guestimate not an opinion so its not wrong, your not done yet.

i guess my knowledge and my brother who is a grad of NADC and their high performance program, as well as facts on this site and other sites dont measure up to your opinions though right


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## Xxboarderxx (Nov 11, 2004)

i have a hatchback and its awesome for a system if uplan on putting one in. it hits are has shit.


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## 2Fass240us (Aug 2, 2004)

Kelso said:


> not all 240's have hicas dumbass. honestly i think the fastback is a better car because i have one and dont like coupes much but when your going for all out performance, coupe is the shit.


I didn't say all of them did. DId i? Oh wait. I didn't.

And "when your going for all out performance, coupe is the shit" is also an opinion. I have already addressed the weight difference. As for your stiffness argument: when it's proven that a coupe is able to turn faster lap times with the same mods, driver, and track conditions, I will concede that the stiffness "differential" is pertinent to the argument of which one makes a better track car. Before that day, I place no stock in the statement, because it has no proof to back it. Just like you stated about my opinions.



Kelso said:


> your opinion doesnt matter because it isnt backed up by facts and saying that something WILL BE stiffer is not an opinion, you are making a statement but its not facual becuase when the coupe is completely gutted too, it can be caged just as good if not better. so it starts off stiffer, and has the potential to be ending stiffer, so your opinion on the matter was wrong.





Kelso said:


> by the way i realize you said "my opinion" because i stated "your opinion doesnt matter". so when talking about facts, your opinion means nothing.


Let's take a lesson from Mr. Webster. He defines "opinion" as "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof." So your statements about the relevance of fact to opinion are retarded. Corky from _Life Goes On_ retarded.



Kelso said:


> you know, both coupes and fastbacks can have hicas so again if you remove thehicas on one (assuming it has it to begin with) and remove it from the other, they wil again have an equal ratio of weight.


How the hell does that have any bearing on my statement? Coupes never came equipped with HICAS, so the published weight does not include the contribution of the HICAS equipment. The hatchback weight however, does. Make sensible statements, or don't make any at all.



Kelso said:


> i guess my knowledge and my brother who is a grad of NADC and their high performance program, as well as facts on this site and other sites dont measure up to your opinions though right


Did I say that my opinions are of higher import than "facts on this site and other sites?" No, I didn't. My point is that you disregard others' opinions condescendingly without knowing who the hell "your" talking to. In essence, this coupled with your last statement makes you a hypocrite.


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## EP240SX (Nov 8, 2004)

mille-16i said:


> I saw a pic an the net were a person took silvia non projector lights and made a lights like the east bear and put the glass over them that was pure magic. If I could figure out how to post the pic I would. But that is an opition if you wanted something alitle dif. As for the show car go with the H/B way better looking my opinion is that nissan should have tossed the silvia and stuck with the 180 look in the s14-15


Hmm well in the URL that you provided it didnt let me see it. I really want to see it. lol. 

Well yah i think i will have to fabricate my own headlights, when i do (which will be in some time) i will post up the pics. If ima fabricate them im going to try to incorporate halos.

YAh I finally decided that im going to use the coupe for drifting and the hatch for show. I can put a way better custom sound system in the hatch and get more bass out of it to enter those competitions as well. Plus I saw an coupe that races in D1 that didnt completly gut the car. Just took out the back seat and all the carpeting to install a 5-point roll cage. Still had his stereo in there and everything. lol. Im sure the doesnt use it as a daily driver but that was pretty sweet.


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## 2Fass240us (Aug 2, 2004)

EP240SX said:


> YAh I finally decided that im going to use the coupe for drifting and the hatch for show. I can put a way better custom sound system in the hatch and get more bass out of it to enter those competitions as well.


I thought about this after Xxboarderxx's last post. The hatch may be better for audio purposes because it's one contiguous space, relatively uninterrupted by seats or structural metal. Plus, the interior volume is slightly larger than a coupe's by 5-10 cubic feet.


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## S14240SR (Aug 20, 2004)

*so the coupe for racing*

Ive been reading about that the s13 coupe is lighter than the hatchback, but by how much? how much of a performence advantage will the coupe have over the hatchback? Or what about the s14 240sx arent they a little heavier than all of the s13s?


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## 2Fass240us (Aug 2, 2004)

S14240SR said:


> Ive been reading about that the s13 coupe is lighter than the hatchback, but by how much? how much of a performence advantage will the coupe have over the hatchback?


I posted this above:


2Fass240us said:


> A 93 SE coupe weighs 2712 pounds, whereas a 93 SE FB weighs 2747.


You can find lots of good information about S-chassis here. But I'll post some info about 93 models:
coupe, manual, base = 2,699lbs.
coupe, manual, SE = 2,712lbs.
coupe, auto, base = 2,759lbs.
coupe, auto, SE = 2,772lbs.
hatch, manual, base = 2,730lbs.
hatch, manual, SE = 2,747lbs.
hatch, auto, base = 2,790lbs.
hatch, auto, base = 2,807lbs.



S14240SR said:


> how much of a performence advantage will the coupe have over the hatchback?


Well, as *also* discussed above, the coupe is supposed to be stiffer than the hatchback in addition to the 35 pound difference. This difference on the track has not been quantified AFAIK, but I would love to see this info if someone finds it. :thumbup:


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## mille-16i (Jun 16, 2004)

the coupe's power to weight ratio 17.4967lbs/hp (stock ka24de)
the hatch's power to weight ratio 17.7225lbs/hp (stock Ka24de)

So that is .2258lbs/hp diference not nearly enough to argue about for any leangth of time and as for chasis stiffness well any car can be made strong, weld the seams add in braces roll cages. And not one person has given the numbers for stiffness or the cars ability to grip which is more important than its stiffness. either would do fine and it is really up to you as to which you would rather show versus this stupid argument over which is best for the track...The answer neither as they were not ment for the track so either one will need work to survive the life of a track car


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## EP240SX (Nov 8, 2004)

Well thanks for everyones opinion. I didnt want anyone to argue about #s to see which one is better for drifting. As that wasnt the case here. My drift car was not going to be determined by numbers but rather by style ;D Well actually my show car was by style. lol

And weight.....look at other cars on the track...some weigh more than the s13. So the little difference from the hatch to the coupe isnt much of a valid argument. Just my opinion.  Hope i dont offend anyone.


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## Kelso (Apr 29, 2003)

well since basically nobody has the money to buy a coupe and fastback and do the exact same things to them, i doubt htis info will come up.actually...people have the cash but who wants to spend it on this project?

i agree that the differences are small enough that its not gonna make that much difference...a driving school would though...but since the argument was which one was better for what, it is coupe. when i said coupe is the shit, it wasnt my opinion, i was stating that based on facts.facts about how it performs and how its specs are compared to the fastback. i wouldnt be making this argument unless you had made the initial statements leading the guy to believe the wrong thing...and just curious, about the back being more able to be caged, what would you be caging back there? i mean past the struts i dont see much point in putting a cage in anyways...what purpose would it have all the way in the back( this was a question, not tryin to prove anything on that statement)

by the way, in saying that " if you took the hicas system off the fastback it would probably eliminate the 35 pounds" i took that as meaning that all fastbacks had a hicas system which they dont.

and the only reason i brought up the websites and me and my bros knowledge is because you were trying to sound all high and mighty with your part time car builder while i was going on car specs mainly.


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## EP240SX (Nov 8, 2004)

Kelso said:


> well since basically nobody has the money to buy a coupe and fastback and do the exact same things to them, i doubt htis info will come up.actually...people have the cash but who wants to spend it on this project?


Thats true. But i am going to buy both. lol. Not going to do the same thing to each but either way. 

You have alot of valid points that are factual. Thanks for the info. Even though I wasnt making my decision on specs, it sure as hell is a good thing to know  Thanks everyone else for their input as well ;D


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## 2Fass240us (Aug 2, 2004)

Kelso said:


> i agree that the differences are small enough that its not gonna make that much difference...a driving school would though...


I would agree with all of this.



Kelso said:


> but since the argument was which one was better for what, it is coupe. when i said coupe is the shit, it wasnt my opinion, i was stating that based on facts.facts about how it performs and how its specs are compared to the fastback. i wouldnt be making this argument unless you had made the initial statements leading the guy to believe the wrong thing...


Well, neither of us are race engineers or experts on chassis dynamics, making either one of our points about as valid as the other.



Kelso said:


> and just curious, about the back being more able to be caged, what would you be caging back there? i mean past the struts i dont see much point in putting a cage in anyways...what purpose would it have all the way in the back( this was a question, not tryin to prove anything on that statement)


I have given this a lot of thought since buying the hatchback, and there are two main things:
1) Ability to protect a fuel cell from rear-end collision, and
2) Ability to tie a rear spoiler into the cage with a more vertical piece, thereby transferring the downforce more "effectively." The main thing is that you want the force from the spoiler to transfer as directly to the strut towers as possible, and a more vertical piece accomplishes this better. This would mainly be applicable on 120+ MPH straightaways where the downforce is higher, and transferring it to the chassis is even more important.

A coupe has the advantage of offering spoiler mounting points closer (horizontally) to the strut towers however, which means that the vertical support from the spoiler to the strut tower is at a lesser angle to the vertical than it would be on a hatchback. This is a plus. At any rate, some form of bracing should exist from the spoiler to the strut towers, and this would be rear of the strut towers, to answer your question. Either you make it part of your cage, or you simply add adjustable pieces instead.

I have also seen aftermarket braces for the ITR that tie hatch-area mounting points to one another, and to the "strut tower bar." On the ITR however, the stock "strut tower bar" is actually at the very rear of the hatch area, not on the strut towers! Take this however you want, but also keep in mind that the ITR chassis is more stiff than the 240 one...

The main thing to consider though is that sheetmetal is inherently more flexible than if it were tied into a cage. So when someone else cages their 240 for track use, they can leave the area aft of the rear strut towers alone if they want to. But I won't, because I believe value lies in adding pieces back there.



Kelso said:


> by the way, in saying that " if you took the hicas system off the fastback it would probably eliminate the 35 pounds" i took that as meaning that all fastbacks had a hicas system which they dont.


Yeah, I know that. Miscommunication, I suppose. Not a surprise for a forum, though.



Kelso said:


> and the only reason i brought up the websites and me and my bros knowledge is because you were trying to sound all high and mighty with your part time car builder while i was going on car specs mainly.


Ah...I wasn't. Such is trying to interpret one's demeanor via a forum. We each have our own strengths and weaknesses, and I wasn't trying to exploit the latter of the two by any stretch of the imagination.


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