# poll: stainless steel lines (brand?) & how do you like them



## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

just wanted to see what brand of stainless steel brake lines everybody has, for which car did you order them, what car did you put them on, and how they have improved/hindered your braking.

i have Goodridge brake lines (for 98 sentra se) and i think i'm having some problems with them. i think they are causing way too much front brake bias. i can lay tire marks, with my front tires, about 10ft long when i stop hard from only going 20mph. this can't be good.

i'm curious about what everyone has and how good/bad they work because the stainless lines on my car are the only thing left i haven't replaced. usually all i hear is how much people love them.

i have 1 yr. old front calipers (adv22f), new rear calipers, new Axxis pads (all), freshly turned rotors (all), altima master cylinder, and motul 600 brake fluid (no air in lines). i have had this braking problem with my sentra ever since i've done the nx2000 brake upgrade w/stainless steel brake lines. 

since everything but the stainless lines have been replaced with new parts within the last year and a half. i'm suspecting the lines are causing my problems. maybe i will go back to stock brake lines and see if that will help? or maybe i should have ordered stainless lines for a 93 nx2000 (to match the front calipers) instead of a 98 sentra se. could they be that much different?

thanks guys,
dan
1998 sentra se 5-speed


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

can brake lines really do this? one possible way i'd see it is if the lines to the rear are restricted. i'm assuming you followed the lines from the master cylinder to the rears and found them ok.


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

azkicker0027 said:


> can brake lines really do this? one possible way i'd see it is if the lines to the rear are restricted. i'm assuming you followed the lines from the master cylinder to the rears and found them ok.



good idea, i haven't checked that yet. but i have bled the brakes about a dozen times in the rear. and they seem to have plenty of pressure about them. 
i'll check just to make sure there are no kinks in the lines :loser:


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

I have goodridge lines on the front only of my 98 sentra with the AD22VF front brakes. Right now the brakes don't lock but have extremely stiff movement.I'm hoping to get the rears installed one day.

Seth


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

I had your setup before and I will soon have it again on my new car.

I think the main problem is the altima MC, Since we already have rear discs on our car, I think the Sentra SE master cylinder is the better option. I could be wrong about this. All I know is the altima MC has a bigger piston that will require more force to push, yet will move more fluid per mm of movement. Kinda hard to tell if this helps or hurts force transfer. Anyway, if your fronts are locking up, it leads me to believe the rears somehow aren't doing their job.

As most people know, because of the weight transfer, front brakes cover around 70% of the total braking and the rears cover 30%. If your rears are not doing their job, that would mean 100% of the braking is on the front wheels and since you need to apply excessive force to get 2 wheels to stop your car, well, your front tires just can't handle that and you lock up.

I really doubt the stainless brakelines are to blame for your particular problem. Since the brakelines don't expand, they will definately make the petal feel firmer. You shouldn't need any excessive force to stop the car, if anything, SS brakelines will allow you to use less force, it only really changes the actual travel of the petal.

Here's the only downside of this and I experienced this first hand, as most of you know, my car got totaled. When you are in a situation that requires you to stop real quick, instinct tells you to mash down on the brake as hard as you can and you will stop faster. You forget how firm the petal is, therefore, when you slam on the brake, ALL of that energy quickly hits the pads, and you lock up. It's easier to lock up with SS lines, which makes me glad I have ABS now.


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> I had your setup before and I will soon have it again on my new car.
> 
> I think the main problem is the altima MC, Since we already have rear discs on our car, I think the Sentra SE master cylinder is the better option. I could be wrong about this. All I know is the altima MC has a bigger piston that will require more force to push, yet will move more fluid per mm of movement. Kinda hard to tell if this helps or hurts force transfer. Anyway, if your fronts are locking up, it leads me to believe the rears somehow aren't doing their job.
> 
> ...



i used to have the 98 se master cylinder on my car, because that is what originally came with it. i changed it to the altima m.c. because i was having the same problem that i have now with the front brakes locking up. i thought the altima mc might fix my problem.

there has to be a problem/mismatch somewhere. i could understand the front brakes locking up under really heavy and quick braking if you didn't have ABS. but i think i have a real problem because i keep warping my front rotors. i have had to have them turned about 3 times in the past year. by the way they are the cheap oem brembo front rotors ($35 each). i dont think that i am that agressive on my brakes.

i do notice that most of my "lock ups" occur when i instinctively hit the brakes quick and hard. but my front rotors shouldn't warp this quickly, right? and also my pedal has never been firm. it has always been the same with the stock mc and the altima mc, kinda mushy. and i can push it all the way to the floor. not easily of course, but it will go. i thought this setup would provide a rock hard pedal with awesome stopping power. so far all it has produced is a little bit of a headache. 

it seems to me like my braking is more like 95% front and 5% rear. the rear discs dont even seem to be worn down at all. they aren't even shiny like the fronts. this is what leads me to believe the rears arent working well. i believe that if i could get more rear braking power then it would keep the fronts from locking up so soon.

thanks,
dan

p.s. is there any way i can get ABS?


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

sounds to me like you have air in the lines leading to the rear calipers. I just finished up my swap today. Believe me, the petal SHOULD be firm. I'm not getting that right now, either, feels much more spongy than I think it should. With some effort, I can touch the floor as well.

IMO, rebleed the rears or take it to a midas and have them bleed it. Your rears aren't getting enough power. Other than that, you shouldn't be warping any AD22VF rotors.


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> sounds to me like you have air in the lines leading to the rear calipers. I just finished up my swap today. Believe me, the petal SHOULD be firm. I'm not getting that right now, either, feels much more spongy than I think it should. With some effort, I can touch the floor as well.
> 
> IMO, rebleed the rears or take it to a midas and have them bleed it. Your rears aren't getting enough power. Other than that, you shouldn't be warping any AD22VF rotors.



thats just it. you're absolutely right. but i've bled the fronts and the rears almost a dozen times. always the same result. just the last time i worked on the brakes i turned all the rotors, put on all new axis pads, and put in motul 600 brake fluid. 
i bled the lines with a clear hose attached to the bleeder valve and the other end of the hose submersed in a bottle. my buddy would pump up the pedal about 3 times slowly and keep pressure on the pedal. i would open the valve and let the fluid run out and then close the valve. i did this step about 5 or 6 times at each caliper, starting at the rear passenger side and working up to the shortest line. as many times as i've done it i think i'm almost a master brake bleeder.
i have the same feeling you do. the brakes feel like there is air still in the lines. but during the bleeding no air comes out. i'm puzzled.
you dont think it could be the stainless lines do you? i initially would never think so either. but it is the only thing i haven't replaced yet. also the lines are for a 98 sentra se; should i have gotten the ones for a 93 nx instead. would it make a difference? i have cheap rotors on the front but i dont think that would cause the problem at all. plus i dont want to shell out any more cash for power slots just yet. atleast until i can get this problem figured out.
:cheers:


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

your problem is a brake bias issue, it's not the lines.

look at the piston size and the rotor diameter in your factory front brakes..

now you go with a larger piston (more hydraulic pressure up front) and a larger rotor (more applied torque with the same pressure).

now you've just gone from the 70% front bias from the factory to about 90% front bias.

I don't know exact numbers, but the problem is still the same. you have too much front brake compared to your rears.
no amount of bleeding or hose swapping will fix that.

you have three ways to fix this:
1. upgrade the rears so they match the factory bias.
2. downgrade the fronts by reducing line pressure (brake bias adjuster valve), or go back to the stock calipers.
3. put some high friction pads on the rear and a lower friction pad up front. this will cause the fronts to grab a bit less and the rears a bit more, thus increasing your rear brake bias.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

...........


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Matt93SE said:


> your problem is a brake bias issue, it's not the lines.
> 
> look at the piston size and the rotor diameter in your factory front brakes..
> 
> ...


I really doubt that is the problem. This is the same brake platform you see on the NX2000, it's a popular and reliable setup. I had this setup before and I did not have this problem one bit. It has to do with the install and something's wrong if the petal is still spongy. The next rear brake upgrade from here (Maxima rears) is too much, then you'll have too much rear bias for the AD22s.

The problem is of bias, but it's not that the fronts are too powerful for the rears, something's preventing the rears from getting enough power, it's not normal.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> I really doubt that is the problem. This is the same brake platform you see on the NX2000, it's a popular and reliable setup. I had this setup before and I did not have this problem one bit. It has to do with the install and something's wrong if the petal is still spongy. The next rear brake upgrade from here (Maxima rears) is too much, then you'll have too much rear bias for the AD22s.
> 
> The problem is of bias, but it's not that the fronts are too powerful for the rears, something's preventing the rears from getting enough power, it's not normal.


well, if you look at it another way, the NX doesn't seem to have a very similar setup to the B14. If we could have all the components of the NX and compare it to the B14, it might make more sense somewhere they differ. Maybe another valve here, or different there, or even master cylinders, or even line routing. Don't exactly know. But one thing though, i had to stand on my brakes ones, then the front locked up, i don't know if the rears worked out, but a big cloud of dust passed me when i stopped. So bias seems to be the issue.


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## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

I have Goodrich SS lines also. At initial install, my guys installed the rears up front but then caught the mistake before installing the front in the rears. I doubt that would affect you. SS lines need more maintenence than rubber lines; how long have you had them? They are more prone to leaks and wear.

To what I understand you have upgraded your front calipers, all 4 rotors and all 4 pads and have had the SS brake lines for a while. The fluid you are using is the best, this is not the problem obviously. If it is in fact bias, using a very high friction pad such as the Carbotech Panther XP-9 would show this (or putting OE pads on the fronts). What Axis pads are you using? Metal Masters????...they are rather harsh on rotors but the warpage you are mentioning is nuts.

After you drive, how much heat is generated by the rear brakes?


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

NickZac said:


> I have Goodrich SS lines also. At initial install, my guys installed the rears up front but then caught the mistake before installing the front in the rears. I doubt that would affect you. SS lines need more maintenence than rubber lines; how long have you had them? They are more prone to leaks and wear.
> 
> To what I understand you have upgraded your front calipers, all 4 rotors and all 4 pads and have had the SS brake lines for a while. The fluid you are using is the best, this is not the problem obviously. If it is in fact bias, using a very high friction pad such as the Carbotech Panther XP-9 would show this (or putting OE pads on the fronts). What Axis pads are you using? Metal Masters????...they are rather harsh on rotors but the warpage you are mentioning is nuts.
> 
> After you drive, how much heat is generated by the rear brakes?



how would i go about seeing how much heat is generated by the rear brakes. maybe touch the rotor slightly after driving to see if it is even hot at all. 

as for the brake pads, i got them from fast brakes. axis regular pads in the front and akibono ceramic/carbon pads in the rear (i ordered axis metal masters for the rear but got akibono instead??). i thought the same thing; that if i put normal pads in the front and more agressive pads in the rear it would help with the bias a lot. but it didn't.

also you mentioned something about almost mixing up the front lines with the rear lines. it's been 2 years since the install. i was pretty sure that i matched up the lengths with the oem lines. but how could i tell now that i've forgotten. i dont ever remember seeing any marks on the lines that distinguish front from rear. this could definitely be worth double checking on.

also no leaks yet. i check the fluids regularly and there is no loss in brake fluid and no saturation any where. 

matt, the brake setup should be really close to a stock nx (with a kick). i have the same calipers up front as an nx, and similar rear discs. plus, my altima mc has a 15/16" bore as opposed to the 7/8" bore in the nx mc. i should be able to push more fluid with less pedal travel. at least that's what it would seem like. not to mention, ss lines to even further reduce expansion.
:cheers:


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## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

you never ever ! want to touch the rotors after driving :waving:


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

touchless thermometer, the kind that use unfared light to measure temperature would work, but I doubt they're cheap.


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> touchless thermometer, the kind that use unfared light to measure temperature would work, but I doubt they're cheap.



very true, rotors get extremely hot and can take the skin right off your finger. not that i would know that personally  (it still hurts to think about it)

but if the rears aren't working very well i could just slightly touch them to see if they are even warm. but even then that probably wouldn't tell me much.

i would definitely need an infrared thermometer. if i could possibly borrow one, what should the approximate temperature be on the rear rotors. for that matter, what should the temperature in the front be. maybe i can figure out for sure if i have too much front brake bias this way. i'll do some searching on that myself too.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

FYI.. I did some quick calculations on the NX brakes.. 

the B13 front discs are 9.1" and piston diameter is 48mm.
the NX2000 front discs are 10.1" and 50mm piston diameter.

that provides roughly a 16% increase in front brake torque over the stock system.
so if your brake system was at 70% front before, it's now at 81.2%. borderline unsafe, IMO.

that is using the B13 brakes, not the B14 though... I'm not sure on the regular Sentra because I don't have the service manual, but the SE-R actually has more brake torque up front than the NX2000 brakes, due to the larger piston in the caliper.


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

Matt93SE said:


> FYI.. I did some quick calculations on the NX brakes..
> 
> the B13 front discs are 9.1" and piston diameter is 48mm.
> the NX2000 front discs are 10.1" and 50mm piston diameter.
> ...


sounds good. 

but what if you factor in the increased piston bore of the altima mc. its 1/16" bigger than the nx mc. that should compensate enough, right?


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## Zac (Mar 10, 2004)

if the brakes are generating heat, the wheel itself will be warm. i agree that this may be bias but if the brakes arent warm at all, then something is wrong. i think throwing the panther xp-9 on your rears will copensate for the addition bias.


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

Yea, those infared thermometers are used alot for checking exhaust/header temps and they're used alot in racing to check camber (based on heat). The best way to tell (by hand) is by touching the lug nuts, they're about as close to the rotor temp as you can get w/o burning yourself.

The rear brakes aren't designed to dicipate heat as well as the front. Even though they only are meant to do half of the work as the front [(30/70) is almost = to (1/2)] they should be just slightly cooler than the fronts (I guess). 

Does anyone know if there's some sort of product that you can put directly on the rotor to see how well the pads are gripping? Something that would be rubbed off by the pad but not immediatey. It's sort of the same concept as in autoX where you put chalk on the tires to see how far you're going up on the sidewall.


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## dan7225 (Feb 23, 2004)

Ninety-Nine SE-L said:


> Yea, those infared thermometers are used alot for checking exhaust/header temps and they're used alot in racing to check camber (based on heat). The best way to tell (by hand) is by touching the lug nuts, they're about as close to the rotor temp as you can get w/o burning yourself.
> 
> The rear brakes aren't designed to dicipate heat as well as the front. Even though they only are meant to do half of the work as the front [(30/70) is almost = to (1/2)] they should be just slightly cooler than the fronts (I guess).
> 
> Does anyone know if there's some sort of product that you can put directly on the rotor to see how well the pads are gripping? Something that would be rubbed off by the pad but not immediatey. It's sort of the same concept as in autoX where you put chalk on the tires to see how far you're going up on the sidewall.



is there a difference between the right and left brake lines in stainless steel brake line kits. i know there is difference between front and rear. 

i have the goodridge lines and i cant tell the difference. i really dont think there is but i'm just checking.

thanks


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## Ninety-Nine SE-L (May 5, 2002)

IIRC, the rear lines are slightly longer in the rear (at least when you have 4 wheel disc). When you have rear drums, it's very easy to tell the difference b/c they're very different.

There's no difference between left and rights.


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