# 88 KC suddenly runs terrible.



## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

The truck was running fine yesterday and then it just started to cut out. It's drives like it is running on two cylinders, and it will not idle.

I remember this problem from about 1 and 1/2 years ago, I changed the fuel filter and the problem was solved. Well, I changed the fuel filter today, and I cleaned the MAF sensors, and it is running just as poorly.

My father jumped behind the wheel and worked the gas, while I pulled spark plug wires off the dist. cap. The idle did not seem to change as one after the other plug wire was disconected. When the #3 wire was pulled, I think it caused the engine to stall but it was hard to be sure.

Mayde it's bad gas. It was nearly empty when the trouble started, and I will limp over to the gas station tommorro.


Any ideas are welcome.

veesix


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

clean out the gas tank


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## BlizzardStormSR (Mar 22, 2007)

3.0 V6?? 

wow, this problem happens to almost every 3.0 V6... 

start with the basics, your car needs 4 things to run properly. 

Air (which you may not have a problem with)
Fuel (sounds like you may have a problem there)
Spark (sounds like a bigger problem here)
Timing (could be a problem, but it's up to you)

for the spark, try:
Replacing the spark plugs and wires, and when you do, check to see if each spark plug is getting spark by putting a plug in the wire while the wire is connected to the distributor, then touch the spark end of the spark plug to the chassis. have someone crank over the motor while you're holding the wire, try to visually see the spark on every position. 

For the fuel, pull off the fuel line, and see if you have pressure or fuel spurting out as someone cranks the motor over, if no fuel, then you have an issue. it would also help to see if your fuel pump is priming and operating, check the connections on the fuel pump if possible. and see if you're getting a solid connection, if not, check to see if there is a break in the wires. (it happens alot on these old nissans)
if you are getting fuel up to the hose in the engine bay, then check your injectors and see if they're getting a pulse. 

as for timing, you can tell that right away.


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Check the ECU error codes.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

In mode 3, I have a code 11 and a code 51.

11-Crank Angle Sensor/Camshaft Position Sensor.

51-Injector Circuit.

Should I start replacing sensors?


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## Fred S (Aug 26, 2006)

It sounds like you will need one, but first you ought to look into the code 51. Make sure that all injectors are getting a signal. A noid light is useful for this. (Google will find you one.)

The reason I'd do the code 51 first is because a lot of vehciles can still run with one sensor out, but a failed injector or wiring will make it run on 5 or less cylinders. And it's cheaper to make sure that all six injectors are squirting before you start buying sensors.

Good luck

Fred


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I was searching the Nissan parts pages, and I could not locate a Crank Angle Sensor for sale. 

Thankfully this engine has just 2 injectors. Does anyone know what an Open Injector Circuit (code 51) is?

Thanks, veesix


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I just gave the dealership a call and the service department guy told me "from years of experience, it is usually the ECU or the throttle body that needs to be replaced." 

I am not 100% sure about that.

The Parts Dept. guy told me that I can't buy a CAS/CPS (angle and position sensor), I would have to buy a new distibutor (about 350).


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

The injectors are paired, so you have to replace both anyway if one is bad. The CAS is indeed encased inside the distributor. Dealerships don't do component-level repair unless the parts absolutely cannot be obtained by order or from the factory. They simply replace the whole unit to fix the problem and then make you pay for it.


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## Fred S (Aug 26, 2006)

88pathoffroad said:


> The injectors are paired, so you have to replace both anyway if one is bad.


What do you mean by paired? Yeah they fire in sets of two, but if one goes bad why would you have to replace the good one? Unless Nissan V6 injectors are really strange, that doesn't make sense.

And don't forget that it could just be a broken wire.


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## johannw (Jan 14, 2006)

I just replaced a CAS error with the whole distributor. The place had a CAS seperate but for only $20. less than the complete unit.


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Fred S said:


> What do you mean by paired? Yeah they fire in sets of two, but if one goes bad why would you have to replace the good one? Unless Nissan V6 injectors are really strange, that doesn't make sense.
> 
> And don't forget that it could just be a broken wire.


The TBI injectors for the VG30i are wired together, they're not separate. They're not sold singly. That's what I mean. VG30E's have 6 single injectors you can replace one at a time.


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## Fred S (Aug 26, 2006)

OK, it's a TBI system. Got it. I thought he had port injection.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I don't mind replacing the distributor or the injectors, but I think it is time to pick up a good multi-meter.

Can anyone suggest a good meter? 

By the way, this truck is officially retired as my primary ride 

I just brought home a Mazda6. From now on, the truck is just for days off


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## Fred S (Aug 26, 2006)

Fluke is very good, but expensive.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Fred S,

It that the meter that you have, and is it easy to use. I have fumbled around with other meters with no success.


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## Fred S (Aug 26, 2006)

I was going to tell you the exact model that I have, but I cannot find the damned thing.
I think I paid about $200 for it.

It's very easy to use, at least for what I use it for. Which is mainly measuring volts, amps and resistance. Just clip the leads onto whatever you want to measure and that's that.

There are Radio Shack models that have the same features and cost a lot less. I had one before the Fluke and found that it was reading off by 2 volts. Since I was working as a bike mechanic at the time, I wound up selling a lot of batteries to customers who didn't actually need batteries!

Once I figured that one out I junked it and bought the Fluke. No complaints yet on the Fluke.

Fred


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Yow. 200 bucks huh? I'm considering it:jawdrop: 

I just got the truck running, and I "limped" it down the street a few times to warm it up. Then I pulled the air cleaner and hooked up a vacuum gauge. The engine barely idled, and the vacuum was at about 11mm Hg. 

Using a flashlight, I found a vacuum hose that was literally broken in half. After replacing that section of hose, the vacuum at idle (about 1000rpm) rose to 16-17mm Ca. It now idles better, but far from great.

Now, with a slight improvement in the idle, I took the flashlight and peered into the throttle body. Fuel is pooling up on the top of the (mostly closed) throttle. This must be WAY to much gas; or is that normal?


Thanks for the input. veesix


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Sounds normal, actually. Mine does it too.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Anyone know what the manifold vacuum should be at idle? This info is not in the Haynes.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

The tank was on E, so I drove it down to the gas station, and back. It is strange how the engine will surge, as if it suddenly hitting on all cylinders, and then misfire just as quickly. "Working" the gas pedal is what changes the way the engine fires.

After returning, I left the engine running, and checked the vacuum. It was at 19mm Hg. With all cylinders firing, the idle vacuum must be doubled (maybe 38mm Hg).

Before I replace anything, I'll run a cylinder compression check.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I ran a compression check this morning. Used the Haynes manual as a guide.

Cylinders 1 - 5 looked strong, and built compression quickly, over 4 strokes, to 180lbs. 

Number 6 was a little weaker, and made only 160lbs.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I noticed a couple things.

1. Spark plug wires fall apart way too easily. What is the deal with that? What is that thing that stays stuck to the spark plug, after the wire and boot are pulled off?

I crimped the wires back together, are they totaly shot?

2. The plugs on the left side of the engine (cylinders 1-3-5) all have carbon deposits (dry sooty deposits). 
The right side plugs (cylinders 2-4-6) all have oil deposits (oily coating).

The gap was equally about 0.010 big on all plugs, so I bent it back in to 40 thousandths.

Then I went for a short ride, and guess what? it still runs bad.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Well, the truck is off the street, and into an air-conditioned garage, so the last couple of days, I’ve been getting under the hood.

I put on a new set of plug wires, and I bought a nice fuel pressure gauge at the local speed shop.

Like most people, I am confused by the sudden surging that occurs while driving, and while the gas pedal is tapped.

With engine at idle, I opened the throttle a bit (while under the hood), then the engine started to die. At that point I sprayed some gas into the throttle body.

When the extra gas was added, the struggling engine surged to life. So the problem must be fuel right? Well hold your answer, because the next day it refused to start. I pulled off the fuel line and hit the ignition and guess what? Not even a drop of gas. 

I have a mechanics stethoscopes, and I will listen to the gas tank for pump noises; it will have to wait till tomorrow though.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Here is a tip---If you want to check for fuel pressure, don't waste your time with the return line (like me), skip that and go right to the fuel supply line.

I rigged up the fuel pressure gauge. It reads about 19lbs while the engine is trying to start. Hard to say if it reads the same with the engine at idle, beacause the engine won't start.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

For about 10 days, I could not get that truck to start. So this morning, on a hunch, I screwed the injector cover back on.

It started right up!

Here is a question.... Anyone know if the old injectors can be pulled out the top?

I dont want to remove the TB and punch them out from the bottom.

Thanks,

veesix


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

They have to be tapped out from the bottom. It's a pretty tight fit and you might damage them trying to get a grip from the top.

You should have 36 PSI for fuel pressure, FYI.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Thanks 88pathoffroad, 

Fuel pressure at idle was 36lbs on the nose.

It was strange how the idle changed when that injector plate was loosened. What is the deal with that?

I picked up the Actron multi-meter at the parts store (it was 29 bucks). I also bought a pair of 10 ohm resistors at Radio Shack; the meter reads them at 10 ohms, so all is good so far.

With the injector pigtail disconnected, the injectors come in at about 1.2 ohms each.

Does this sound right to anyone?


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

The other day I cleared the error codes. I took the truck for a short drive down the street and back (maybe 1/2 mile). After that, I checked for codes and it came up clear.

Today I went out for a longer drive. Got the speed up to 60MPH, and it was running strong at the higher RPMs. On the trip home I got into traffic, and thats when the sh-t hit the fan.

At a long red light, it started to chug. It died in the middle of a huge intersection (I was making a left). I pushed it through the intersection and onto the side of the road.

By the way, lots of black smoke from the tail pipe. I never noticed that before.

I sat there for about 10 minutes, the truck did restart, and I limped back home. Then, I had some codes, 13 and 45.

After it cooled, I took a flashlight into the engine bay, and found a few issues.

This is an extra wire that comes from MAF sensor connector bundle. See the duct tape cob-job?

Anyone know what that wire is? (the tape looks shiny in the pic) It does not go into the sensor, and it ends at the edge of the pic.










I just removed the old tape. It's a small wire strap (a ground for something?)


veesix


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

This is a narrow wire strap that is attached on the drivers side; between the carbon canister and the washer fluid tank. I am holding up the end af the strap (left side of pic) to show the frayed end. 

What is this thing? and should it be hanging loose?

Should this strap, and the strap in the first pic. connect? They don't look to be the same size.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

One more question about a bad wire.

Check this puppy out; It's clear where the wire is damaged (the bottom wire). Of the 12 strands, that make up this wire, about 6 are left (and they look bad). 

This is a wire to the EGR control solenoid. I don't know if I should worry about it though; I pulled the exhaust return tube off the cat. last year. (actually it rusted off)


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

The pics were fine yesterday. Today, nothin.

Never mind. ImageStation in down for server repair.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

My Image server was down for a couple days, so I am trying this again.










Above is a pic of the wire bundle that leads to the MAF sensor. The free wire comes from the bundle; it looks like a ground strap.

The bottom pic is another ground strap; it's connected to the driver's side fender, and it is also hanging free. Does anyone know if these two strap should be connected? They are not the same size, but it seems obvious.

End of strap is left center.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Just started a 4 day weekend, so I have got to get this thing fixed. 

It's up on blocks, and the radiator is out. 

Previously, I posted the pics of a couple of mystery wires. Also, I have to get the engine temp. sensor changed (thats why the radiator is off) and the fuel injectors have to come out (that means, off with the throttle body).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here is a couple pics of the truck right now.


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## spat (Oct 15, 2005)

The breaded wire coming out of the harnes was likely sheilding material for the MAF not sure. cut futher back into the harness and see if it encases the wires that would be a sure sign. In the past I have had to replace/repair harnesses due to the sheilding material to break and start piercing into the protected wires causeing all kinds of problems. That may be why it was pulled out in that manner. So lets think about that, If the sheilding material was piercing the wires it would be resonable to conlude that moister can easily find its way in those tiny holes and cause corrosion in the harness.

The other exposed braided wire bolted to the inside body is a ground strap but to where I dont recall do you have another one somewhere on the engine. you should have a ground strap between the engine and fram or body somewhere.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Thanks for the info spat. You are right, I peeled back some electric tape on that MAF harness, and it is shielding material (I cut the excess off).

The other ground wire is still a mystery for now. I took a look around for the missing anchor point, but did'nt find much.

I have another question though. The AC belt, the fan, the AC tension pulley and bracket, the radiator: All this stuff is off the truck. I also have the timing belt cover unbolted (it is wedged in there good). 

How do I get that Engine Temp. Sensor off?

Thanks

veesix


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm going to Sears for a 10mm box wrench. Hopefully, it will get those throttle body nuts off. Was working on the truck till 1am, so I'll finish my coffee first 


Please. Does anyone know how to get this temp. sensor off?

This is the close up; It has a nut, attached behind the elec. connector (It looks like one piece). It's hard to get a socket on it (looks like it needs a spark plug socket, but that would be too large).

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I finally have that sensor out! 

Throttle body is off (thank you 12mm wrench from Sears), and the injectors are out.

I have a deep 3/4 inch socket with a 1/2" drive. It barely fits over the sensor nut, and the drive barely fits into the socket, but it worked.

Now I am searching for a good place to have the injectors rebuilt (new is about $600). Also I think i'll test the sensor, just for fun.

Thanks everyone for your help, and stay tuned please. I'm only half way there.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Fed-ex just dropped by with some new parts. The part numbers are visible in the pic., but I'll list them.

-Coolant Temp. Sensor 22630-01P01.
-The Coolant Temp. Sensor Harness 24079-12G00.
-Fuel Injector 16021-17C00.

The other injector shipped separately, and it's due by friday.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

If you are getting an error code 13, and you want to get that sensor out, these sockets can get it done. 

It's probably a metric part, but this 3/4" is an exact fit.

-3/4-in Socket 45889.
-Wobble Ext. Bar 43178.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

The parts are in and I'm getting it back together.

One problem though.

-How do the rubber rings (for the fuel injectors) go into the throttle body? 

This part is a metal ring with rubber feet, and I don't know if it's installed feet up, or feet down.


Also. The manual says to use silicon oil to lube the injector o-rings. I bought Ultra Black RTV Silicone from Permatex.

-Should I use this stuff?

A manual at Pep Boys, says to use trasmission fluid.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Here is an image of those injector rings. I don't know which way they go back into the throttle body. Rubber feet up, or down?










It's got to be feet up. Here is a good schematic of the throttle body at this link.

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/17/af/fa/0900823d8017affa/repairInfoPages.htm


veesix


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Here is the TB, bolted back it place. I used a small amount of Ultra Copper by Permatex. The silicon that squeezed out, is visible in the image.

For the injector o-rings, I used a thin coat of motor oil. 

For now, the Mixture Heater, and the carbon filled EGR intake port, can stay the way I found them. For a few minutes, I scraped away at the carbon, but it gets old fast.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

This project if finally a wrap. I've cleaned up the garage floor, and I am slowly putting the tools away.

Thank you, to everyone.

The truck is running great.

And, today, it's time to get doggie out to the beach.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

Here is the recent note from my image server (Sony ImageStation).


Dear veesix,

This is a reminder that January 14th is the last day to backup your photos and video to an ImageStation Picture Archive Disc. This represents the next phase of our permanent site closure scheduled for February 1st, 2008.


Anyone know how I can keep my images connected to my posts? 

Thanks, veesix


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Move all the pics, then edit your posts to reflect the new location/URL. That's about it.


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## veesix (Jul 18, 2004)

I thought the Edit option expired about 24 hours after a reply is posted. 

Am I missing something?


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Ohhhh, it may do that on this forum. Other forums are different.


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