# auto industry



## rennfahrer (Jan 11, 2005)

hi guys
i was just wondering if you would be so kind as to give your feedback about hybrid cars.
i'm doing a project about hybrid cars and would like to know people's opinions.
mainly, would you buy a hybrid car? yes or no? why?
which one would you buy?
currently the choices are prius and civic.
but in the near future, accord and altima.
why?
why do you think the manufacturers are producing hybrid cars?
money saving for the people? performance without guilt? trend? or government regulations/requirements?
why do you think the car companies are doing this, making hybrid cars? Is it consciousness, government regulations, pressure, etc?


----------



## GarrettSER (Apr 6, 2003)

rennfahrer said:


> hi guys
> i was just wondering if you would be so kind as to give your feedback about hybrid cars.
> i'm doing a project about hybrid cars and would like to know people's opinions.
> mainly, would you buy a hybrid car? yes or no? why?
> ...



Unfortunately, hybrid cars are only appealing to those who have the money to afford the premium cost of helping the environment. For the average price you pay for a hybrid, you would have to own the car for six years to realize savings in fuel cost. However, if I had the money, I would probably get one as my everyday car, just to help out the air a little.

Manufacturers are producing hybrid cars in response to government pressure. They really don't sell well at all, and the only state where they have had even marginal success is in California. I like to think of it as a halfway marketable concept car: "show the world what YOU are doing for the environment...."

Personally, I think we are going the wrong way with this hybrid thing. We need to focus on getting out of petroleum completely, and instead relying on a brand new, clean energy source that doesn't sacrifice much in the way of performance either. This half-gas, half electric thing is coincidentally a half-ass attempt to be environmental.


Goodluck on your project.


----------



## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

i think the hybrids are coming out now primarily to market the company's good will toward change. they are too impractical to be the future. i think the automakers will start leaning toward other forms of engergy like biodiesel and then hydrogen(when the technology matures). but these markets are still to small for a mass produced car, so the companies are making that halfway step between petrol-free and petrol-soaked autos.

would i buy a hybrid car? no, the cost/benefit ratio is not there. i woudln't mind helping the enviroment, but its too expensive as of now. 

which one would i buy? civic because it looks the most like a normal car. but i would rather have a nissan :cheers:


----------



## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

hybrid cars are great for those in which a car means only a way to get from point A to B. a hybrid to me is like death because performance will come to a halt simply to be practical. i could never bring myself to own one. i like the scream of a tuned engine not the complete silence of an electric motor :thumbdwn: and as a future mechanic i shudder at the thought of working on them


----------



## BII (May 13, 2004)

Hybrid is an interesting technology, but its not the right direction. I think we should be looking at lightwieght, high reving, turbo diesel engines fueled by bio-diesel or synthetic diesel...at least until fuel cells are perfected.


----------



## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

mainly, would you buy a hybrid car? yes or no? why?
-NO.
Several reasons.
1) cars are expensive and the point of a hybrid is to save money on fuel so why does the addition of the technology cost more than it would for the regular version plus gas for the life of the car.
2) no full hybrid available in gas guzzling cars. Yeah, it's nice that the civic has a hybrid, but what about the camry or base accord (only the most loaded has it). What about a taurus or explorer or hummer, the ones that get crappy mileage? A car that goes from 30 mpg to 40 mpg is only 30% more. A car that goes from 8 mpg to 16 mpg is 100% more.
2) technology is unreliable for saving fuel. Especially in states where you need A/C on all the time.
3) sketchy accident recovery record.
4) untrained mechanics. So you break down, who's gonna fix the car? What if there is no dealer around? What if the one guy at the dealer who is schooled in hybrids is away or sick?


which one would you buy?
-There is only 1 full hybrid for sale, the prius. The insight is no longer available. The half hybrids are coming, lexus, nissan, GMC, honda, etc. These are full gas cars with a 'super alternator' or DC motor that assists in startup and in from-a-atop acceleration to ease the load when gas engines produce the least torque. (just off idle)
Since the other cars produce negligible increases in mileage, they are worthless. If you buy the 4 cyl accord or camry you get better mileage if you drive gently as opposed to the much more expensive, heavy, hybrid and drive like a maniac.

why do you think the manufacturers are producing hybrid cars?
-Politics. Gas mileage fleet quota's. Theoretical emissions advantages over other technologies (more on that later) It's a reason to charge more money for a car and get it because the concept is popular. Profit. Brand being recognized as a technology leader or eco-firendly even though it as the british say 'bullocks'.
Hydrogen cars are unrealistic because it takes more energy to make the hydrogen for the cars to use it. It's less efficient than gasoline. Also there is no distribution network. Fuel cell cars are ways off until they are practical so this is a very convinient stopgap.

money saving for the people? performance without guilt? trend? or government regulations/requirements?
-all of the above sorta to a degree.

why do you think the car companies are doing this, making hybrid cars? Is it consciousness, government regulations, pressure, etc?
-It's a get rich quick scheme with positive social and political benefits.

Hybrids are for ignorant people. Hybrids do not get better mileage than the diesel versions of the same cars and trucks we drive in the states overseas.
Hybrids run off petroleum based fuels. 
Lets look at diesel vehicles for a second. Diesel is inherantly a more powerful fuel since it stores more energy than gasoline. Diesel pollutes less greenhouse gasses since it is consumed in fewer quantities. Diesel does produce other emittants which are non harmful (soot) and do not affect the environment in the least, but it is perceived as 'dirty'. Of course just stricter emissions devices on the cars, or cleaner diesel fuel removes this. Europe has these cleaner fuels, our country is somewhat slow to react. This is poliics. It is somewhat odd that all the cars we drive here have multiple engine choices abroad, several diesels, and those are not available here for purchase. Diesel engines are more reliable due to their design, break down less, and last longer. The addidional pressures that the engine must endure necessitates a stronger build and the stronger build holds up to daily stresses more. There are no spark plugs so no electrical problems related to that. The diesel is a very simple basic engine. Can be fixed with a wrench and a screwdriver. Can you say that about a hybrid?

Finally the torque curve of a diesel is heaviest at the off idle area right in the sweet spot for stop and go traffic. It has more power at slower speeds so uses less fuel. Because it has more power smaller engines can be used which use less fuel in situations that warrant a larger gasoline engine. 
True diesels have less horsepower, but that is part of a gearing issue, and part of the marketing mystique about horsepower. When driving one, off the line and out of corners they are faster. Up hills etc. But this is off topic.
Since they have so much torque they'd be a boon for a hybrid since the crank can turn a larger generator with a smaller engine. You'd get over 70 mpg in a diesel prius of the same srize. 
Part of the luxury of diesels is that they don't have to run on petroleum based diesel. Diesel can be grown from the ground as a derivative of rapeseed or mustardseed. Basically a fuel version of vegetable oil. The stuff french fries are dunked in. This is grown stateside. That means we can run our cars on a renewable fuel source that is produced in the US of A and not be dependant on foreign piolitics or pricing. This is a fear of oil companies and part of the reason they are not encouraging diesel. The only drawback of this biodiesel is that it is not fully developed to the extent that it is only around 80% as potent as regular diesel fuel. That is it stores slightly less energy, and that it coagulates in extreme cold (gells). For people who live in the sunbelt states this is irrelevant but in north dakota and colorodo, they'd have to plug in their cars so the fuel tanks stay above freezing so the fuel doesn't become like pudding. Of course there are additives to remove this but it is not a perfect solution. Still in the winter diesel cars can run on regular diesel fuel.

Some people say that diesel is unpopular. That the smell is bad. Is that really a reason to push of cars that are almost 100% more efficient than gas? (2.0 gas engine gets 28 mpg, 2.0 diesel gets 50 mpg.) That's crap. People say diesels aren't sold because no one buys them. That's also crap. There have been only 2 diesel cars sold in the US lately. The Passat and the golf/jetta/beetle (same car). Recently mercedes has let the C320d back. Jeep is allowing the Liberty. There is no 50/50 choice that people have. I'd bet any money that if they sold diesel civics, that got 60mpg and still cost less than $20k they'd sell like hotcakes.
You wonder why no light trucks are offered in diesel. Just the full size super duty ones. You don't think a nissan frontier would benefit from a diesel, especialy for towing? How about a Toyota Tacoma? or Ford Ranger, or Chevy S-10, etc. etc. Howbowt a damn diesel explorer, lord knows there are enough of those around.
So far diesel has the same predicament as hybrid, it is the 'fancy' model. The VW diesels are all loaded. The diesel Toureg is the most expensive model.

Personally I think more people need to know that diesels are not as environment unfriendly as they are made out to be (sounds like big oil is paying environmentalists to fight them) and we can get a renewable fuel grown here. No more 'they took our jerbs'. Lastly with all the money being thrown into diesel, imagine the developments.

For the tuners, you can tweak a diesel for mad mad torque and power or crazy fuel efficuency. The engines take up less room so can be better positioned for weight distribution in racing.
Can't mod a hybrid.

Seth


----------



## I'm Slow (Dec 30, 2004)

i wouldnt want to buy them for the simple fact that they all look ugly.. there MPG sux... your paying 2x that of what you would pay for gas, and they sound gay...like an rc car or something


----------



## BII (May 13, 2004)

sethwas said:


> ...


Right on brother. And people that think diesels are only for trucks or are slow and noisy and smoky, drive a VW TDI or any other passenger diesel car, you'll be surprised.

But what about performance? A turbo diesel won the pole at Indy in *1952*, after which diesels were banned of course.

Gale Banks has done some pretty trick stuff with turbo diesel-powered vehicles

check it out

I'd drive one, but diesels are banned in California, of all places. If I wanted a diesel, I'd have to buy an expensive and big lunky truck, not what I want to drive.


----------



## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

bII said:


> I'd drive one, but diesels are banned in California, of all places. If I wanted a diesel, I'd have to buy an expensive and big lunky truck, not what I want to drive.



Or buy a nice Toyota Tacoma that got busted in a front end collision, rebuild the front and get an older european diesel engine. Do the same for a car. After certain years you can bring the diesel in. Mind you that may not still work in CA.

Seth


----------



## I'm tired of my usernamee (Feb 16, 2004)

people have been experimenting with hybrids for so long, the military has vehicles that will run off of almost anything that will burn, a guy has a Suburban he made that runs off deep fryer oil, The seattle Bus Transit has the largest fleet of "hybrid" buses that they bought from GM. I think that the idea is a good one and Im all for soving the eviroment and being eco-friendly but in my opinion the extra cost for the hybrid technology far outweighs the potential savings that the car is supposed to save in fuel. just my .02


----------



## BII (May 13, 2004)

sethwas said:


> Or buy a nice Toyota Tacoma that got busted in a front end collision, rebuild the front and get an older european diesel engine. Do the same for a car. After certain years you can bring the diesel in. Mind you that may not still work in CA.
> 
> Seth


Or buy a rabbit diesel and swap a TDI in it, would be expensive, but lots of aftermarket support for the old rabbit still. Won't pass visual, but oh well


----------



## Baddad (Jan 10, 2005)

Do you know how they generate electricity in the midwest? COAL......very very dirty, so is diesel. Is it better for the environment? I'm all for better air quality, but isn't pursuing alcohol or bio-diesel a better investment in our future?


----------



## BII (May 13, 2004)

Baddad said:


> Do you know how they generate electricity in the midwest? COAL......very very dirty, so is diesel. Is it better for the environment? I'm all for better air quality, but isn't pursuing alcohol or bio-diesel a better investment in our future?


Yes bio-diesel uses surplus soybeans and has none of the elements that cause acid rain (if IIRC). Synthetic diesel is also a good alternative, and cheaper than bio-diesel. Alcohol is very corrosive, and alcohol-powered cars are not as effcient as diesel. Alcohol is dangerous as well. Bio-diesel is stable and can be tranported safely.


----------



## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

Baddad said:


> Do you know how they generate electricity in the midwest? COAL......very very dirty, so is diesel. Is it better for the environment? I'm all for better air quality, but isn't pursuing alcohol or bio-diesel a better investment in our future?


watchu talkin about? illinois's nuclear power plants provide most of the power around here. we got 6 of them yo!


----------



## BII (May 13, 2004)

Tavel said:


> watchu talkin about? illinois's nuclear power plants provide most of the power around here. we got 6 of them yo!


But how much better would it be to make fuel out of surplus soybeans or restaurant grease (which what bio-diesel is made of) or natural gas piped, not from the middle east, but from our own country?


----------



## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

hey, im all for biodiesel. im actually starting to get pissed that no manufacturers are offering diesel/biodiesel to the US market. i'd buy one in a flash. (i dont like VW's, stupid yuppies).

i was just proving that illinois is polluting the least as far as electical production. something nuts like 80% of my power comes from nuclear ( while the national average is 3-6%..yeah). but of course this is all run-off from the manhatten project, no other states had that luxury. :cheers:


----------



## BII (May 13, 2004)

Even if you get a diesel powered vehicle, there's no guarantee you'll find a gas station offering bio/synthetic diesel. 100% pure bio is rare, some offer blends. Banks has an interesting article on thier website about it. Nice thing about biodiesel too is that your exhaust smells like french fries


----------



## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

It's supply and demand. If enough cars asked for it you'd see it.
Instead you have to buy it in drums and blend it on your own. In some of the states where it's produced you'll see B20 at the pump.

Seth


----------

