# Trouble with WARM start, electrical?



## ka24e (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi all,

My '92 Stanza GXE (ka24e, automatic transmission) has stranded me twice in the past couple of weeks. A few times in the weeks before that, it didn't want to start (wouldn't even turn over) the first couple of times I turned the key, but then after a few tries, it started right up with no further problem. In every case, it was warm - never with a cold first-start-of-the-morning start.

Then the problem got worse: I only succeeded twice getting it started with many tries this week.

Symptoms & Test Results:
* Slow cranking speed after less than 2 seconds of cranking
* Cranking slows to a stop after just a few seconds
* "Wheezing" or "whining" sound when cranking (except at first when it cranks fast for a second or two)
* Battery is 18 months old, holds a charge just fine; checked output from alternator one of the times I got it running, 14.something volts measured across batter; checked battery voltage with engine off, 12.5 volts.
* Plugged in my battery charger (2a/10a/50a) charging on 2a for a couple of days, then charging on 10a overnight, and switching to 50a while cranking the engine . . . no change in cranking speed.
* Tried ADDING jumper cables from my truck with truck engine running and charger still at 50a . . . no change in cranking speed.
* Checked for spark . . . spark good on all 4 plugs
* Fuel seems okay . . . IF the car starts, there are no other symptoms when running, and the times when it DOES start it just starts right up with no problem.
* The starter does NOT make the single "click" that most people mention when having starter problems.
* I checked and cleaned the battery cables and connections . . . nothing loose, minimal corosion (none after I cleaned!) . . . no change in cranking speed.

Is it possible for a starter to become "weak" and maybe draw heavy current at the same time? And could that become worse if the starter is warm?
:wtf:
My gut tells me it must be the starter, but the symptoms don't match what other people with bad starters have reported. And it looks like a real PITA to replace the starter on this thing.

Any suggestions for being sure of the diagnosis, and also for how to replace the start if that's the problem, are GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks,
Ken


----------



## Stanza~Steve (Sep 26, 2008)

ka24e said:


> Hi all,
> 
> My '92 Stanza GXE (ka24e, automatic transmission) has stranded me twice in the past couple of weeks. A few times in the weeks before that, it didn't want to start (wouldn't even turn over) the first couple of times I turned the key, but then after a few tries, it started right up with no further problem. In every case, it was warm - never with a cold first-start-of-the-morning start.
> 
> ...


ok, i reread that 3 times. and from what your saying, its your battery. though it may hold a charge and it may have 12.5 volts. did it pass a load test? when you put the battery under a load, it has to hold that charge enough to get the alternator going to recharge it. id suggest replacing the battery first off.

although.. it COULD be some corroded terminals in the relay/fuse box. but very unlikely. and it might be a "weak" starter. but those either work or dont. ive seldom seen them work sometimes and sometimes not. but thats me.

are you low on oil? youve checked all your fluids? changed them lately? sludge can slow a engine down, but it takes alot to do something like this.

do you have a bad relay possibly? im just listing things half awake right now, so please forgive me. but the process of elimination is sometimes the way to go.

ill post up tomarrow after i get home from all my running around.


----------



## ka24e (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi Steve,

I just ruled out the battery by swapping batteries with my Dodge Ram 1500: Battery from the Stanza gave a strong start on the truck; Battery from the truck managed an "okay" start on the Stanza, then I shut it off and got a "barely" start on the Stanza, so shut it off and I tried again only getting slow-crank-no-starts from that point on.

If it were a problem with something totally passive (e.g., wires or connectors), I would not expect the problem to get worse on successive tries. So I'm thinking starter or relay are more likely the problem, yes?

No recent repairs or other work on the car. It is due for an oil change, but not past-due or low. The oil is a bit dirty looking as I've been using (gradually) some MMO to clean it up a bit, but it usually looks that way a few hundred miles after I add the MMO (shortly before each oil change). If it were sludge, I would expect the problem to be worse when cold instead of worse when warm or hot as it is.

I guess it's time to try bypassing everything and putting power directly to the start & solenoid (first time for me!). Wish me luck!

Ken


----------



## ka24e (Jan 31, 2008)

OR . . .

Maybe it is the alternator??? Before swapping the batteries back, I tried cranking the Stanza with the truck battery again . . . same result (slow-to-no crank). Then I swapped the batteries back after leaving the Stanza's battery charging on the truck (idling for about 20 minutes). For fun, I tried cranking the Stanza using the Stanza battery and got the strongest start I've had in weeks!

I then shut it off and tried again getting a "good" start on the next 3 tries, an "okay" start several times, and a couple of "barely" starts - 11 starts in all, which is more than I've had all week total.

So now I'm thinking the battery isn't getting charged fully on the Stanza's alternator and so after one or two starts, it hasn't recovered enough to crank for additional starts? In other words, it's not warm/hot making it worse but just the battery not recovering enough?


BUT . . .
If it is the alternator, then WHY did it not crank when I trickle-charged the battery for days AND used the 50-amp boost from the trickle-charger AND had jumper cables coming over from the (running) truck? The battery should have been charged at least as deeply as 20 minutes of idling on my truck, AND the additional power sources should have been enough on their own.

So now I'm back to wiring is the problem?

I just checked the Stanza battery and alternator with my voltmeter:
* Engine off, battery connected: 12.4v
* Engine on, battery connected: 13.7v
* Engine on, battery disconnected (measuring at battery-end of cables): 13.8v
* Engine on, battery disconnected (measuring at alternator posts): 13.9v

Seems a little on the weak side but I think that's within okay range?

Possible clue: This is the third replacement alternator in about 1 year. Two years ago, the battery wasn't getting charged and alternator seemed to be the problem (that's what a local mechanic diagnosed anyway), so I had the mechanic put in a new alternator. A couple of months later had the same exact problem, so the mechanic put in another new alternator at no charge (covered under warranty). A month later had the same exact problem. The mechanic said he would again replace the alternator "just one more time" and strongly recommended that I replace the battery (my $) as he suspected a bad battery was killing the alternators. So I replaced the battery (that's the one in there now) and got another alternator (also the one in there now).

. . . so maybe there is some other electrical problem that either ruins batteries and/or alternators, and/or mimics a bad alternator or bad battery?

Here's what I'm stuck on:
* Battery trickle-charged gives slow-to-no crank => suggests battery is bad or other possibilities.

* Battery booster + jumper from running truck gives slow-to-no crank => suggests problem is NOT battery but probably starter or wiring or relay or solenoid or ignition switch?

* Battery removed from Stanza starts truck with no problem => confirms (?) battery is NOT the problem?

* Battery swapped-in from truck gives slow-to-no crank on Stanza => confirms (?) battery is NOT the problem?

* Stanza battery charged on truck at idle for 20 minutes gives a dozen strong (but fading) starts => suggests Stanza alternator is the problem.

* But if alternator is the problem, then WHY can't I jump start with battery charger/50a boost and/or jumper from running truck?

:fluffy:
I'm going in circles!!!

Looking at it all again, I'm coming back to the conclusion that:
1) The *main* problem is with the starter - it is "weak" and/or drawing more current than it should.

2) There are one or more other contributing problems not significant on their own but combined with #1 add up to failure.

3) #1 and/or #2 may be intermittent.

I just read this thread, which has me even more convinced about #1.

I'm about to give the local Pep Boys a try and see if they can diagnose it with any certainty. Haven't gone there before, but their prices seem okay and this is quickly getting beyond my ability to diagnose, much less fix.(Stanza starters are a pain to reach - barisclosed at this thread has some tips for an '88 which might work on my '92, but still a lot of hassle! I also started through the diagnostics listed here, but again the difficulty in accessing the starter puts some of these tests literally out of my reach!)

Hopefully some of the above info and links will help the next guy. I'll post results once I have a definite diagnosis or fix.

Ken


----------



## Stanza~Steve (Sep 26, 2008)

just a quick reply, while i have 10 minutes.

take your starter off and take it down to autozone or maybe napa or checker and they can probably do a starter test on it with thier little machine. if it checkes out ok, then it might not be the starter, and your gonna have to keep looking.

but thats what id do. take the starter off and have someone test it.


----------



## 91yrsold (Apr 26, 2007)

You mentioned it was difficult to get to the starter but have you tried giving it a good WHACK (capitals for added effect) and then tried turning it? Occasionally a starter can seize and depending on where and when it seizes could be causing some of those intermittent problems you mentioned. If you try hitting it and nothing is working than I agree with Steve, see if you can't take it in and get it tested.


----------



## ka24e (Jan 31, 2008)

I called Pep Boys and got a quote for $225 parts & labor to replace the starter (IF they found that was the problem) with a rebuilt starter with lifetime warranty. Not bad, in my book.

Took the car in and then watched for a while from the parking lot (from my ride picking me up). Even with a lift and decent tools, it took more than an hour just to diagnose, and for 15 or 20 minutes they had three techs looking at it together! When I talked to the service manager, he told me that he had three of his techs look at it to be sure and they all agreed it was the starter. They replaced it for the rate quoted - glad I got a quote in advance!

The slow-crank problem is completly gone now! :thumbup:

BUT . . .
I still got a no-crank for about 1 in 10 tries. It will just give a very faint click and nothing happens. If I try again, the engine starts right up. I haven't been able to make it fail, but it seems a little more likely if I'm pulling the key toward me just a little. So far, it hasn't failed twice in a row. Figuring the problem is the ignition switch now, I removed the steering column cover and "played around" with the ignition switch / key cylinder a bit. Now I only get no-crank for about 1 in 30 tries.

Having two semi-related problems originally made this hard to diagnose. I'm pretty sure at this point that I can make it fully reliable by replacing the ignition switch - I'll probably wait until it gets worse though since at the current driving rate vs problem rate, it'll only happen about once or twice a week and the "solution" is to just try again.

Thanks Steve and Dan for the help!

Ken


----------

