# Slow crank speed



## Mongoose007 (Aug 15, 2006)

Hi all,

My Terrano is turning over slowly, sounds about one turn of the starter per second, and hence the engine is not firing. It was hard to start in a parking lot, had to get a jump start from another car. Eventually fired, got home, parked and found corrosion on the terminals. Cleaned that off and charged jump starting it, and it wouldn't go.

I tried a few things, went away, came back the next week and there was a clicking, sounded like a solenoid, from the auto tranny pan. I think this is probably a red herring though.

So far this is what I've tried:

1) Jump starting from a running car with battery in circuit. Makes 5 or 6 slow turns then stops. Solenoid clicks on then off repeatedly.
2) Jump starting from a running car with battery out of circuit. Makes slow turns.
3) Removing starter from engine and running straight from a battery. Turns freely, consistently and fast. Compared to a freshly purchased second hand starter, couldn't tell a difference in speed or noise.
4) Replacing starter on engine with freshly purchased second hand starter. Repeat (1) and (2). Same behaviour.
5) Leaving key in off position, jump the solenoid from the battery terminal (on the starter), repeating (1) and (2). Same behaviour.

I think these tests eliminate the electrical circuit (test 5 in particular) and the starter (test 3 and 4).

This leaves me with the engine or the auto transmission. My diagnosis is that one of these is seized. 

I haven't been able to turn it over by hand, because there's too much junk in front of the pulley to get a strong arm to it, so I'm not absolutely certain, but these seem to be the only things that could fit.

Does anyone have any other thoughts as to what it could be?


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Everything but check the battery itself. No voltage checks. No quicky checks such as turning on the headlights and seeing if they dim when the key is turned to start the engine.
And you will say...
"But I tried jump starting it and it didn't work"
Do you really think those little jumper cables with those 2 points of contact on the battery terminals will (or can) supply ALL of the power needed to drive the starter?
Way back when, jumper cables used to be called "booster cables". And they were called that for a reason...to give a battery a boost (i.e. charge) to help start the engine. Combine that quick battery charge with what little actual power the "booster cables" can supply, and the engine should turn...assuming the vehicle's battery is good in the first place.
Get a voltmeter, get a charger, use them, post the results...


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## Mongoose007 (Aug 15, 2006)

Thanks for your reply jdg.

Had tried with two different batteries. I'm not confident in the original battery, but gave it a try anyway. Also tried with a known good battery, in the 400CCA region.

Cranking it from the battery alone takes battery voltage down to ~2V from 12.4V (on the old battery, don't think I specifically recorded voltage with the new one). I think this is because the starter motor speed is so low the brushes are making continuous contact.

Cranking from the car took it down from ~14V to ~10V. Again I think the same reason.

All batteries have been on a week's charge using a multi-stage charger. I'm confident they're as charged as can be. 

I just checked the resistance on the cable and from one jaw, along the cable, through the other jaw to the main positive lead reads 0.2Ohms, which exceeds the accuracy of my voltmeter, so I don't think this is going to be a major drop in voltage on the contacts.


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Ok...would've been helpful to have at least some of that info in the initial post.
400CCA battery isn't much of a battery, but that's just me, and I live in an extremely cold region.
If cranking takes it down to around 2 volts, something is wrong with the battery and/or connections.
Resistance of the cable? The jumper cable or the positive battery cable?
If you're reading any resistance at all, it's too much. Even .2 ohms is enough to limit the amperage, at 12 volts, down to about 60 amps at best...much less when the voltage drops off while cranking (i.e. 10volts ~ 50amps, 8 volts ~ 40 amps, etc).
What do the headlights do if you turn them on then crank the engine...without the jumper cables?
I think you've got crappy battery cables/terminals/leads, either positive side or negative side...one or the other.


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## Mongoose007 (Aug 15, 2006)

Just tried it with a brand new 600CCA battery. I'm familiar with the shop I bought it from, and I'm confident it'll be nearly fully charged, or at least enough so that it won't make a difference.

Plugging it into the main wiring loom (not via jumpers), it's not even turning over now. It's just clicking, sounds like the starter solenoid. The battery is obviously working quite hard 'cos it's venting gas.

The lights dim as well.

My guess is still the starter motor is being physically stopped and hence not turning, creating a short.

Oil is slightly low, but above the minimum marker, it was changed the other day, and was previously reading above the min marker as well (I don't think it's been oil starved while I've had it).

The radiator fluid was also changed at the same time (it was brown not green  ).

I could put the battery on a charger, but the fact that it was smoking, and previously reading 12V suggests it's not a low charge situation. I don't think it'll make any difference. I will try on the weekend to be absolutely 100% though.

Is there any common easy to fix problem with a stuck TD27 engine I can look at? All I can think of is spun bearing, or similar, which would require an open engine job...


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

If the starter was working that hard and not turning anything, I would think the cables would get HOT! Like hot enough to start melting the insulation...or at least get really warm to the touch. Same thing goes with the lights dimming. If the system can't pull the power thru bad cables, there won't be enough juice left over for the headlights, and repeated clicking of the starter solenoid suggests the same thing...low voltage caused by a large voltage drop across the cables/terminals/grounds/etc caused by bad parts.
For grins...pull the spark plugs out and see if it turns over any easier. That should eliminate any kind of hydro-locking or something similar that could've been caused by a massive head gasket leak.
The fact that you drove it home and haven't reported any evidence of oil starvation or overheating doesn't lead me down the path of engine destruction.
I'm sticking with the bad battery cable/terminal/ground theory.
BTW - How can you tell the battery is venting gas? I mean, literally, if I heard, or saw, a lead acid battery venting, I'd be moving away fairly quickly. I've already played that game once...don't care to play it again...:O


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## SPEEDO (Jun 9, 2003)

you said the terminals had corrosion, did the corrosion travel up the cable? is it hard to bend (batt cables) fusible links good?


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## Mongoose007 (Aug 15, 2006)

Hi speedo, the cable did have corrosion, extending about an inch up the cable. This was all chopped off about 4 weeks ago, a week after I bought the thing. It now has shiny copper and battery lugs. I cleaned the most recent batch of corrosion off the lugs with sandpaper.

Jdg, yeah, you can see the gas venting out from under one of the terminals. I'm not having a lot of fun trying to fix this POS. 

The cables are getting warm to touch, they're pretty thick (about 13mm diameter), and I'm not trying it for too long, so nothing's melted - yet.

I would offer another alternative explanation to low voltage situation - the battery is putting out maximum power, and trading voltage for current, as it can't provide both. This low voltage-high current situation means the solenoid deactivates, stopping the high current flowing, and all of a sudden the battery isn't being asked to provide max power, and it can provide 12V at a reasonable current again, hence the on-off clicking.

The above wouldn't explain the solenoid in the tranny pan clicking when it's in run though. Haven't been able to find a suitable point to directly measure voltage for that though.

I'd have extreme grins trying to pull out the _spark plugs_, but I'll try and pull out the _glow plugs_ on the weekend. I know what you mean about driving it home, it's not normally STOPPING an engine that causes it to die! But if it's not electrical, I'm not sure what else it could be. I didn't notice anything weird when I drove it back...



Does anyone know what the solenoid in the tranny pan is doing? If this was the torque converter solenoid locked in that would cause the drive train to mechanically lock, is that worth considering? Would it still lock up the engine it if it were in neutral on the auto gear stick?


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Mongoose007 said:


> I would offer another alternative explanation to low voltage situation - the battery is putting out maximum power, and trading voltage for current, as it can't provide both. This low voltage-high current situation means the solenoid deactivates, stopping the high current flowing, and all of a sudden the battery isn't being asked to provide max power, and it can provide 12V at a reasonable current again, hence the on-off clicking.


Ok...at least we're on the same page.



> I'd have extreme grins trying to pull out the _spark plugs_, but I'll try and pull out the _glow plugs_ on the weekend.


*DOH!*  Didn't know it was a diesel! That's a whole different story. (spark plugs...indeed!)



> I know what you mean about driving it home, it's not normally STOPPING an engine that causes it to die!


Actually it is. It's the prime time for a worn timing chain/belt to jump a tooth on some worn sprockets. The very last thing an engine does when you turn it off is spin backwards for a fraction of a turn, especially in a diesel engine. Cam still has some inertia, tries to keep going the same (i.e. correct) direction, and BAM! Instant engine death next time you try to fire it up...if it's an interference motor anyways.



> Does anyone know what the solenoid in the tranny pan is doing? If this was the torque converter solenoid locked in that would cause the drive train to mechanically lock, is that worth considering? Would it still lock up the engine it if it were in neutral on the auto gear stick?


I'd doubt the lockup scenario, and even if it did, if you crank it in neutral, I would think the load on the starter would be negligible. You're spinning the transmission pump, input shafts and everything else anyways.


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## Madness (Oct 10, 2012)

Worn brushes in the starter motor will cause this problem. There are 4 brushes and if one is not making contact the other pair will still try to run the starter but does not have the power to spin the motor fast enough to start. I had to take brake master cylinder off the booster on a RH drive to get the starter out. out.


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