# Turbo sprooling ?



## Blackbob (Jun 19, 2002)

Any of you guys use a small shot of NOS to sprool your turbos to that rpm where they kick in ? I know of some guys who do just to get rid of that lag turbos have.


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2002)

Naw. If you've got a modern, efficent turbo and it's been sized out correctly for your application, lag won't be an issue. My turbo is capable of putting out 450 wheel HP but it starts making positive boost by 3200 RPM. That's not laggy really at all. I mean in an NA SE-R you'd have to be at higher RPM than that (6000 for example) to get all the power out of the motor, and by 4000 RPM I'm making far more than any bolt-on SE-R.

And that's only for a large turbo like the T3/T04e or the GT30/37. If you get a smaller turbo like a GT25 which is very efficient, size it properly, you'll still make a ton of HP and it will spool even faster than mine does. Turbo lag is only an issue these days if you don't know what you're doing with a turbo and you size it wrong.


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## Blackbob (Jun 19, 2002)

*O ok !*

I was just curious


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Or a better turbo is a t-04. It is able to spool at 4000rpms and capable of higher than 500hp. With the right mods you can make more than 600hp on only 25lbs of boost. I have seen it in Japan


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2002)

The T04 is not actually a better turbo than the GT30/37 though. The T04 uses older technology and it's not nearly as efficient, the efficiency island is much smaller, and the ones that make 500 HP (with a stage 5 wheel for example) don't make full boost till almost 5000 RPM.

The GT30/37 is more efficient and is ball bearing on both sides. On the efficiency map the GT is a full 10 points higher across the board than the T04e and the island is wider and longer. That means more power across your entire RPM band and it's a lot less peaky. It makes more power at the same boost level as the T04, and it spools up way faster... and that's not just from a stop, that's also cruising on the freeway. If you're out of the boost you just give it gas and the boost comes up so quickly it almost feels NA.

Now if you want 600 HP then you want a bigger GT series turbo like a GT35/40.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2002)

My 84 300zxt has an AirResearch T5... how does it match up with the rest? And how do do you size your turbo, or adjust it to get more hp?


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## Blackbob (Jun 19, 2002)

*Good question !*



Kitryj said:


> *My 84 300zxt has an AirResearch T5... how does it match up with the rest? And how do do you size your turbo, or adjust it to get more hp? *


 Yeah I was wondering the same thing.


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

How much is the GT35/40??

If you factor thr price differcnce the t-04 is the best for the money. And yes they make a t-04 with ball bearings. 


On the Gt35/40 and GT30/37 what is the exhaust and intake a/r??


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *How much is the GT35/40??
> 
> If you factor thr price differcnce the t-04 is the best for the money. And yes they make a t-04 with ball bearings.
> 
> On the Gt35/40 and GT30/37 what is the exhaust and intake a/r?? *


A straight T4 on a 2 liter motor or smaller would be super laggy.

Now maybe you mean a T3/T04E. That's what I have. It has a ceramic ball bearing but it's only a single ball bearing whereas the GT turbos are dual ball bearing with better bearings. They are also more efficient. But as you pointed out there is a price difference of about $800.


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

A t-04 spools at 4000rpms which not really laggy. And yes it is a t4.


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *A t-04 spools at 4000rpms which not really laggy. And yes it is a t4. *


When you say spools, what exactly do you mean?

My turbo hits full boost (10psi street) at 3700RPM.

A straight T4 on a SR20 would hit full boost (set at the same level) probably about 500-1500 RPMs higher, depending on how the T4 is sized.

I suppose we are defining laggy in different ways. The GT30/37 on Aaron Labeau's car starts building boost under 3000 RPM. It hits full boost at about 4000RPM, however, it is very linear and you can control the boost quite easily with the gas pedal. On the other hand, my car hits boost hard and is much harder to control wheel spin. At 20 psi on my car, from 4k RPM to 5k RPM my car gained 180whp. Now it sounds pretty impressive, but it sure is hard to control. At 10 psi it is much more linear however.


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

We are probally using two definitions. Do you know what a t-04 would spool at if I was wanting to run 30psi??

Or the Gt30/37 spool rate at the same psi??

I was planning on running 30psi or more when I get my engine done. I am building it before I accually go turbo.


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *We are probally using two definitions. Do you know what a t-04 would spool at if I was wanting to run 30psi??
> 
> Or the Gt30/37 spool rate at the same psi??
> 
> I was planning on running 30psi or more when I get my engine done. I am building it before I accually go turbo. *


Well if you plan on running 30psi you'll have to have a T04 that's on the large size to make it efficient up in that boost range. And if that's what your looking for you're looking at hitting full boost at 5k RPMs. THat's if you have a motor that could really handle 30psi with a large T04.

You really need to build a motor to handle this. How much money are you planning on spending? Seriously, a SR20 that can handle 30psi will have TONS of money put into it. Then you'll have to make sure the tuning is really good. Maybe you know what you're doing, but I have a feeling you just picked 30psi as a goal. What's your HP goal? That should be the real question. A car running that kinda boost will not really be a street car and you'll blow tranny's left and right.

It's not impossible, and if you reall would like to do this don't get too discouraged by my response. Just realize that you will have to spend more than the cost of a WRX to do this right.


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## Blackbob (Jun 19, 2002)

*OK*

All I wanna know is what can I put on my Z ?


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

I want a least 600hp. I wont be running 30psi all the time. Just at the track. I dont think I will be spending more money than a new WRX. All I am going to get is pistons,rods,cams,valves,valve springs, retainers,72lb injectors,ect...

Chris Allen ran 2bars of boost(29.0 psi) with less mods.

His only problem was the tranny So if I can some how take the gear box off a bluebird and exchange it. Then shotpeed it ,and cryogeenitcs.I think I will be fine..

Like I said I will only run that at the track, not all the time I will only run 18psi..


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *I want a least 600hp. I wont be running 30psi all the time. Just at the track. I dont think I will be spending more money than a new WRX. All I am going to get is pistons,rods,cams,valves,valve springs, retainers,72lb injectors,ect...
> 
> Chris Allen ran 2bars of boost(29.0 psi) with less mods.
> 
> ...


Chris Allen's car has a GTiR motor in it. He has pistons, rods, cams but just realize when you are at that boost it may not be very reliable. Chris made about 500whp, not sure if that's your goal or 600whp? Those type of numbers are where you'd consider block sleeving, and definitely head studs. If you want your head to seal with that much boost you may have to use a copper head gasket and it may weap during normal use.

Do you know how many transmissions Chris has been through? I'd bet he's been through more transmissions than anyone else that owns an SR20.

Andreas Miko has done the Bluebird tranny swaps but those transmissions are very hard to find (FWD and LSD). I've talked with Andreas about this and he says they break as well although they are a little stronger.

I have doubts about these goals with what you are planning on doing, but hell, prove me wrong...I wouldn't be unhappy


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Yes, I was going to use a copper head gasket. It is one like they use on the 5000hp dragters. It is a soft copper,so it makes a perfect seal. I was also going to get it sleeved. I know a guy that can do it for a $1000.00.

I also know a guy that make far more horses with less boost. But he has far more money in to the engine. He made about 600hp with only 24lbs.

Plus another guy that makes the same hp as chris allen,with a us. spec sr20. So the gti-r part is not a factor. 

I have a primera sr20.

How would the transmission get stressed?? How about i shotpeed it,and cryogenics.


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *I also know a guy that make far more horses with less boost. But he has far more money in to the engine. He made about 600hp with only 24lbs.
> 
> Plus another guy that makes the same hp as chris allen,with a us. spec sr20. So the gti-r part is not a factor.
> 
> ...


600whp with 24psi? That turbo must be bigger than a T4 or does he have a bigger motor?

The GTiR is a small factor. It has a short runner intake manifold, better heads, oil squirters, and mechanical valve train which allows you to run more lift. Those things add up to more safety and probably 20-50 more wheel hp at higher boost levels.

Ah, so you are going to sleeve the block...you didn't say that before. Are you also going to use better head bolts or studs?

The gears on the Bluebird tranny are bigger than SR trannies but not much. Treating them will extend the life. My tranny (SR tranny) was shotpeened and Cryo treated and it lasted a while, but finally broke on my first pass running 20 psi (~392whp) as soon as I shifted to 3rd. It lasted a few years though.

Anyhow, push the limit and let's see what you can do! I'm just giving you advice on what I'ce seen, heard or experienced first hand. Good luck with your build up and keep me posted!


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Thanx for the help,but I will need all the help and advice as I can get. So if I ask stupid questions,bare with me. Thise stupid questions are need for me to ask.

Here is one right now. Will parts from a sr20 (rwd) fit onto a sr20 (fwd) like cams ect..


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Thanx for the help,but I will need all the help and advice as I can get. So if I ask stupid questions,bare with me. Thise stupid questions are need for me to ask.
> 
> Here is one right now. Will parts from a sr20 (rwd) fit onto a sr20 (fwd) like cams ect.. *


I'm not really sure. But I know there are others on this board that can answer this question. Anyone?

I know some things are the same, but RWD SR20s are distributorless. I'm guessing the cams are the same, but I'm not sure.


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

I just found out that most are the same. 

But here is another ???????Question??????


Are the MSD injectors top feed or side feed. How would i use them if they are top feed??


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

You will want MSD 72lb injectors and a fuel rail. You can get both from JWT


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Ok, thank you again


Another Question??



What is all needed to do the Ga16de to Sr20de swap??
I know the engine,trans.,wiring harness,alternator wiring harness,front engine mount,ecu, and ecu bracket. Am I missing any thing..


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

Your missing the shift linkages and axles obviously.


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## Blackbob (Jun 19, 2002)

*Uhhhhh........*

How did this go from helping me with my turbo question, to a turbo free for all ?


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## rios (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Uhhhhh........*



Blackbob said:


> *How did this go from helping me with my turbo question, to a turbo free for all ? *


i think it has something to do with amphetinines..or maybe cookies...damn cookies


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

I also know the axels need to be changed,but i also know the shift linkage does not need to be changed. Any thing that can be added to the list??

Boosterwitch 
Also need help doing an auto to manual swap. What is needed besides the clutch master & slave,shift linkage,clutch & brake pedals,shifter & mount,and the thing that have to be swap when swapping the engines??


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Yes, I was going to use a copper head gasket. It is one like they use on the 5000hp dragters. It is a soft copper,so it makes a perfect seal. I was also going to get it sleeved. I know a guy that can do it for a $1000.00.
> 
> I also know a guy that make far more horses with less boost. But he has far more money in to the engine. He made about 600hp with only 24lbs.
> 
> ...


I would say that you really need to do more research. A 600 hp car is not streetable. It would destroy your gear box immediatly, a copper head gasket is not streetable, they weep in long term use. 30 psi is not realistic, sleeving the block can be harmful if not done correctly. A turbo that is efficient at 30 psi and that will make 600 hp will not make boost till over 6000 rpm on a street car.

600 wheel hp from a 2000cc motor at 24 psi is also proably BS if you do the math. The VE and BSFC numbers will not match up very well unless the motor is very highly developed.

A project like this is beyond state of the art, basicaly you want to build a streetable quick class motor which is not posible.

Mike


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

No, I dont think the car is bs.b I have seen the cars parts list,and time slips.

I said I would only use 30psi at the track ,and yes a copper head gasket is streetable. Many people use them on the street. I have done plenty of research.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *No, I dont think the car is bs.b I have seen the cars parts list,and time slips.
> 
> I said I would only use 30psi at the track ,and yes a copper head gasket is streetable. Many people use them on the street. I have done plenty of research. *


Anyone can claim anything when it comes to boost pressure per hp. If you do the math behind the power claims you will see that that power level is very difficult out of a 2.0 liter motor with a 90% VE at that boost level.

If you have done your research go ahead and use a copper gasket on the street and see what happens after a while. Don't say I did not warn you.

What I am saying is that your project is not realisitc. You want to build a car with the power of Lisa Kubo's Qucik Class car and drive it on the street. Yes it will go down the street but on the boost levels that you can hit with pump gas, the car will suck not be all that powerful and be unpleasent to drive.

The most you can expect on the outside and still be streetable is in the high 400 low 500 hp range.

Mike

Mike


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Oh shit.. I was sayin copper,and thinking metal... Metal is streetable.. And once again,I sat only that much psi at the track.. Only 15 on the street... Is that streetable????


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Oh shit.. I was sayin copper,and thinking metal... Metal is streetable.. And once again,I sat only that much psi at the track.. Only 15 on the street... Is that streetable???? *


Yeah metal is streetable, however the head sealing of the SR20 becomes marginal at around 30 psi no matter what sort of gasket is used, I mean it will work but you can start to see combustion gas residue in the radiator at thius pressure.

The thing is if you get a turbo that is efficent at 30 psi, it will be very laggy and soggy at 15 psi on the street on pump gas. You are better off with a more realisitc power goal. I mean you
can still run 10's with 500 hp at 25 psi.

If you force a smaller turbo to run 30 psi, it might make less power and backpressure the motor to hell, making things very hard on the motor due to reversion.

Mike


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Thats why you have to get a turbo that can spool quickly under low boost and produce large in around the 5500 area.... t4 is able to do that, but the better chioce is a t3/t4.. Or you can go with a larger turbo(t60 and up)and spool it at low boost and when it is spooled turn up the boost... You also get better traction.TurboXs makes a system like that.. Flip a switch between a low/high setting..


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## dho (May 15, 2002)

Did ya'll think of using a Level 10 Performance Automatic Transmission that can handle 600hp/500 tq?

What about using a stall converter with these bigger turbo's and have the stall at 3,200rpm???


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)




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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Thats why you have to get a turbo that can spool quickly under low boost and produce large in around the 5500 area.... t4 is able to do that, but the better chioce is a t3/t4.. Or you can go with a larger turbo(t60 and up)and spool it at low boost and when it is spooled turn up the boost... You also get better traction.TurboXs makes a system like that.. Flip a switch between a low/high setting.. *


Turbo sizing is not just that simple. The TO4 can be had in sizes that only support 200 hp to applications that can support 600 hp. The TO4 cannot do that better than a T04/T31 combo. The TO4B turbines used are really heavy and old school in design.

A TO4E 60 trim will not get you 600 wheel hp either, it can't flow enough air.

I suggest that you do a bit more research and not listen to sales people who are feeding you this stuff.

Mike


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Sales people?? I havent talked to one.. You know when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME.. A local tuner said to never go over 60a/r.on a 4cyl. He makes plenty of 500-600hp 4 cyl.


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Sales people?? I havent talked to one.. You know when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME.. A local tuner said to never go over 60a/r.on a 4cyl. He makes plenty of 500-600hp 4 cyl. *


Does your local tuner have proof of these numbers?

Morepower2 has tons of direct experience with turbos and SR20s. In fact, i'd say there are maybe 1 or 2 more people out there with as much experience as he has with SR20s and turbos.

He is also an engineer with lots of knowledge of turbos and engines and how they work. You really should listen to what he has to say.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2002)

*DO THE MATH*



sentragtr20 said:


> *Sales people?? I havent talked to one.. You know when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME.. A local tuner said to never go over 60a/r.on a 4cyl. He makes plenty of 500-600hp 4 cyl. *


For one thing, i think your fake knowledge is ludacrist. 30 lbs of boost is a lot of goddamn boost for one thing...NOT IMPOSSIBLE though. But like the members say your trying to build a quick class street car. Please spare yourself the embarrassment and get more realistic with your car's goals. The SR20DE-t is an awesome engine with great capabilities, but 600 whp at 30 psi on a streetcar is unreal. Im in the process of swaping my engine for the GTi-R motor and my goals are more realistic than Betty Crocker chocolate frosting: a streetable b13, 300-400 crank hp, 15 lbs boost, built internals, and a autocross warrior. My "knowledable brothers", please gimme an AMEN! 

-HSentra


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

I would listen, except he come across as an ass.. I know he trying to help,and I am willing to learn. But he act like every thing I say is bull.. 



I have not accually seen numbers from this guy,but have seen some of his cars race. Incredible times...


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2002)

*TIMES?!*



sentragtr20 said:


> *I would listen, except he come across as an ass.. I know he trying to help,and I am willing to learn. But he act like every thing I say is bull..
> 
> 
> 
> I have not accually seen numbers from this guy,but have seen some of his cars race. Incredible times... *



What kind of times have you seen from the front-drives with SR20's im them?

-HSentra


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

If Morepower2 seemed to come across as an ass, that's because he's been fielding these questions for years, and I can understand his frustration at the same old crap that gets sold as information. I know the man and his "shizniks is phat and stupid". I think that's how you say it. Sentragtr20, do *YOU* have a really good friend who works for Garrett AirResearch? Didn't think so.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Sales people?? I havent talked to one.. You know when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME.. A local tuner said to never go over 60a/r.on a 4cyl. He makes plenty of 500-600hp 4 cyl. *


Then don't belive everything a local turner will tell you either. The A/R of the compressor side does not have as much merit for the power ouput of the motor as the turbine or even the type or trim of the turbine and compressor wheels.

If you are talking about the turbine, like 60 a/r what? at T25 or a T51? A 0.60 a/r is pretty small, not enough to make 600 hp. unless it is a 60 a/r which is not posible!

I really suggest that you try to get an education on turbos before you attempt a project like this. It is very apparent from your posts that you don't know anything about turbo sizing at all. Maximum Boost by Corkey Bell and Turbochargers by Hugh Mciness are good places to start.

And since you think I am an ass and am wrong about your project, I guess you don't need anymore help or advice!

Mike


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2002)

*Thank you mike*



morepower2 said:


> *
> Then don't belive everything a local turner will tell you either. The A/R of the compressor side does not have as much merit for the power ouput of the motor as the turbine or even the type or trim of the turbine and compressor wheels.
> 
> If you are talking about the turbine, like 60 a/r what? at T25 or a T51? A 0.60 a/r is pretty small, not enough to make 600 hp. unless it is a 60 a/r which is not posible!
> ...


Mike, i think everbody really appreciated your last post......you and me are alike: knowledable of the sr20 and strong willed. Thing is when somebody like GTR20 gets on this forum and is giving information that is gospel to him but bullshit to the real enthusiast, we need to just give him that short and sweet statement at the end of your post, " I guess you dont need anymore help or advice."

True beauty.

-HSentra


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Fine I really dont care about your help.. As you can see from an earier post, I asked for the help of Boosterwitch. He is the only one willing to help.. You all dont even bother telling me why I am wrong. You just say it is wrong,and dont explain why...


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Fine I really dont care about your help.. As you can see from an earier post, I asked for the help of Boosterwitch. He is the only one willing to help.. You all dont even bother telling me why I am wrong. You just say it is wrong,and dont explain why... *


We gave you help, you just don't want to listen. You just want to be told your misconseptions are correct.

Mike


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Fine I really dont care about your help.. As you can see from an earier post, I asked for the help of Boosterwitch. He is the only one willing to help.. You all dont even bother telling me why I am wrong. You just say it is wrong,and dont explain why... *


I completely agree with everything that morepower2 has wrote. Like I said earlier, you really should listen to him. I've learned much of what I know from him.


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## sentragtr20 (Jun 8, 2002)

Ok,maybe we started off on the wrong foot.. But I only go on what i see on other sr20s.. I have changed my goals and plan to a lower power level.. 500hp at 25psi. If some one can make 600hp at the same level of boost. I think I can make this one..


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## James (Apr 29, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Ok,maybe we started off on the wrong foot.. But I only go on what i see on other sr20s.. I have changed my goals and plan to a lower power level.. 500hp at 25psi. If some one can make 600hp at the same level of boost. I think I can make this one.. *


I say you do it, do it and do it now!  

Screw what Mike and everyone else says! Damn the man!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.....

Just don't come back askin' for help!


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

sentragtr20 said:


> *Ok,maybe we started off on the wrong foot.. But I only go on what i see on other sr20s.. I have changed my goals and plan to a lower power level.. 500hp at 25psi. If some one can make 600hp at the same level of boost. I think I can make this one.. *


I told you before that I doubted the 600hp number. I was more hands off about it, morepower told you straight up what he thought. If you really believe you can get 600hp and have a streetable car then go for it. Prove us all wrong. Like I said before, if you can prove us wrong then we'll all be happy about it


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## dho (May 15, 2002)

What would happen if you added some NOS? Just curious... been looking at the 9.8 second SE-R with Ferrar driving it. I think he had a 100shot or something. How would that help the HP numbers? Would you have a 1 time 600hp dyno? Poor car


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

dho said:


> *What would happen if you added some NOS? Just curious... been looking at the 9.8 second SE-R with Ferrar driving it. I think he had a 100shot or something. How would that help the HP numbers? Would you have a 1 time 600hp dyno? Poor car  *


You would have head gasket sealing problems just like Jaime does. It would take some serious R&D to figure out how to fix that, I suspect deck or head flexing.

It might require some exotic measures to cure like gas o-rings or reveiver sealing rings to fix.

Mike


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