# Poll: Double Clutch heel/toe or normal heel/toe?



## Atif Farooqi (Jun 26, 2005)

What do yo uthink Double clutch heel/toe downshift or normal heel/toe downshift?

And on a side note, are synchros something i should worry about ruining? Thats where this started. I hear some people say to double clutch and some say no need but double clutch never appealed to me but i dont wnat my tranny to die right away.


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

*You forgot the poll!*

I double-clutch heel-and-toe. Self-taught, didn't know that some were advocating the other way.


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

you can't double clutch our cars, tehy have synchros, double clutchin is just a fast and the furious thing. im sure if you hit the search button and search double clutchin you will find loads of info on it... you can rev match during down shifting, but not double clutchin


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

psuLemon said:


> you can't double clutch our cars, tehy have synchros, double clutchin is just a fast and the furious thing. im sure if you hit the search button and search double clutchin you will find loads of info on it... you can rev match during down shifting, but not double clutchin


My understanding of double clutching is that you rev match during down shifting , however you dis-engage the clutch in between the shift. This is how I have always done it, and the term double clutch just means that you are pressing the clutch in twice, once to dis-engage the first shift, rev match, and press the clutch in again to engage the next gear. 

So according to the popular use of that term you CAN double clutch. And becase it matches the speed of the gears to the speed of the motor it IS easier overall on the transmission.


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

wes, if you put it like that, then it seems liek you can double clutch, but i have always heard it as rev matchin,, well there is actually a good debate bout it in the b15 section .


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## sunnydet90 (Sep 10, 2004)

double clutching is more effective in a damn semi truck or dump truck where it almost has to be used. this is because these vehicles don't have synchronizers in the transmission so you have to clutch it to take it out of gear then clutch it to put into next gear. some truckers "float" the gears which is basically just rev matching if i'm thinking rev matching is shifting at a set rpm to not have to use the clutch for the shift. 

Don

(it helps that both parents drive dumptrucks)


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## CHRIS/SR/SE (Dec 15, 2003)

Atif Farooqi said:


> What do yo uthink Double clutch heel/toe downshift or normal heel/toe downshift?
> 
> And on a side note, are synchros something i should worry about ruining? Thats where this started. I hear some people say to double clutch and some say no need but double clutch never appealed to me but i dont wnat my tranny to die right away.



Simply put NO, unless you have a syncrogear issue.


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## Flying Vv (Apr 10, 2003)

sunnydet90 said:


> double clutching is more effective in a damn semi truck or dump truck where it almost has to be used. this is because these vehicles don't have synchronizers in the transmission so you have to clutch it to take it out of gear then clutch it to put into next gear. some truckers "float" the gears which is basically just rev matching if i'm thinking rev matching is shifting at a set rpm to not have to use the clutch for the shift.
> 
> Don
> 
> (it helps that both parents drive dumptrucks)


 your mom drives a dump truck?


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## sunnydet90 (Sep 10, 2004)

Flying V said:


> your mom drives a dump truck?


 yup (pwned by ten character)


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## Acceler8ter (Feb 5, 2005)

sunnydet90 said:


> yup (pwned by ten character)


Yeah, floating the gears is awesome. I wish I could learn to do it. This guy Mark that works for my dad can float them. He floats them in cars too. Don't know how he can match it that damn well. Not many people can do it.

I hate double clutching... but whenever I need to bring a diesel in the shop or go hook one up to something, I have to do it. You can't just push the clutch in and go from 1st to Reverse. Because if the splines don't line up correctly it'll keep you from going out of gear or engaging into another gear. 

I prefer synchro's with heel/toe. :thumbup:


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## J_Feicht (Aug 16, 2005)

double clutching is pointless under most circumstances. syncromeshes in our transmissions do all the work for us (if you have a dog-box it works a bit differently, but chances are... no one does). Double clutching is used to match engine and tranny speeds. so unless your tranny doesn't have a syncro, you're just wasting time and clutch by double clutching. one smoothe go at it is so much faster.

i could be wrong. but i'm pretty sure i'm not.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

J_Feicht said:


> double clutching is pointless under most circumstances. syncromeshes in our transmissions do all the work for us (if you have a dog-box it works a bit differently, but chances are... no one does). Double clutching is used to match engine and tranny speeds. so unless your tranny doesn't have a syncro, you're just wasting time and clutch by double clutching. one smoothe go at it is so much faster.
> 
> i could be wrong. but i'm pretty sure i'm not.


Well I would say you are wrong. When you are down shifting at high speed and going to be at the top of the power band on the lesser gear, it helps to match as it has less of an effect on car balance. On a road course if it is not done smoothly if you are downshifting and breaking into a turn, it CAN disrupt the car's balance if you have a sudden jerk because of a downshift....

The point is that it is also, overall, less abusive on the transmission. On the street or tooling around town it is not necessary, but track driving it can be very helpful.


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## Acceler8ter (Feb 5, 2005)

wes said:


> Well I would say you are wrong. When you are down shifting at high speed and going to be at the top of the power band on the lesser gear, it helps to match as it has less of an effect on car balance. On a road course if it is not done smoothly if you are downshifting and breaking into a turn, it CAN disrupt the car's balance if you have a sudden jerk because of a downshift....
> 
> The point is that it is also, overall, less abusive on the transmission. On the street or tooling around town it is not necessary, but track driving it can be very helpful.


Wes, I think you misunderstood him. He said double clutching is useless, he didn't say rev matching is as well. 
When downshifting... double clutching your adding an extra step which prolongs the shift and is pointless. While if you press in clutch, start moving shifter to the gear you want and rev the car to the correct RPM and drop it in gear is much faster. Your not wasting time, your getting it done as soon and efficiently as possible.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Double clutching under breaking = no wasted time. It is a habit of mine and when done properly is no different than rev-matching.


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

> Double clutching under breaking = no wasted time


Waste of education, though... :fluffy:


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

bahearn said:


> Waste of education, though... :fluffy:


LMFAO, you are absolutely right!


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## J_Feicht (Aug 16, 2005)

Acceler8ter said:


> Wes, I think you misunderstood him. He said double clutching is useless, he didn't say rev matching is as well.
> When downshifting... double clutching your adding an extra step which prolongs the shift and is pointless. While if you press in clutch, start moving shifter to the gear you want and rev the car to the correct RPM and drop it in gear is much faster. Your not wasting time, your getting it done as soon and efficiently as possible.


Yeah, rev matching is necesary, but you don't need to double clutch to do it. you just gas it as you downshift. if you don't rev match on a down shift you just jump forward and completely lose your rear end... i can see that as very problematic in a corner, but on a strait it still isn't even that bad.. but you shouldn't really be slowing down in the corner, you're supposed to slow down before the corner, cruise into the apex and accelerate out of the corner. (that's just my experience).


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## Acceler8ter (Feb 5, 2005)

J_Feicht said:


> Yeah, rev matching is necesary, but you don't need to double clutch to do it. you just gas it as you downshift. if you don't rev match on a down shift you just jump forward and completely lose your rear end... i can see that as very problematic in a corner, but on a strait it still isn't even that bad.. but you shouldn't really be slowing down in the corner, you're supposed to slow down before the corner, cruise into the apex and accelerate out of the corner. (that's just my experience).


That's correct. The idea is you want to LEAVE the corner FASTER then when you CAME into it. So if you come into a corner at 20 MPH and leave it at 35... your doing something right. :cheers:


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Acceler8ter said:


> That's correct. The idea is you want to LEAVE the corner FASTER then when you CAME into it. So if you come into a corner at 20 MPH and leave it at 35... your doing something right. :cheers:


I didn't realize that.... Thanks :thumbup: 

Well honestly that is the THEORY, but the reality is that you will find yourself doing different things to get the car to do what you need it to in a certain situation. Granted trail breaking does not involve downshifting mid corner, it does involve breaking IN the turn....


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

Wes, you will never, ever drive my car. You're always breaking things...


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

Double-clutching MAY not be as important as it once was, but it sounds wicked cool.

Did I just "say" that???


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

bahearn said:


> Wes, you will never, ever drive my car. You're always breaking things...


As opposed to braking things..... Yeah Yeah so I have a spelling problem. :thumbup:


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## J_Feicht (Aug 16, 2005)

man, you're not 'breaking' early enough if you're still braking into the corner. you won't be able to turn as hard if you're still slowing down... it's a traction percentage thing. if you're trying to slow down, your tires are doing work, and if your turning your tires are doing work. haven't you ever seen that graph? you know, the circle where the circumference represents 100% of traction usage??? any body coming with me on this one?


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

You don't advocate trail-braking? Ever tried it at the track?


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## J_Feicht (Aug 16, 2005)

What is trail-braking? i've never heard anything about trail braking. i might know it by a different name, or even just by description. no one i know knows what "trail-braking" is either.


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## J..M (Aug 7, 2005)

I've just got rid of a BMW lil 3 series ...... Its done 250K & never had its clutch doubled in its life & the transmission is fine (The engine smoked abit but wouldn't you after 250K) 

The thing being with any method of rapidly getting the gearchange out of the way is ; *"IS your brain/hand eye foot coordination good/fast enough to keep control of the car changing direction at high speed"**?* (You will soon find out if the front of the car wraps itself around a hard imoveable object...... Power pole Tree ........ Car comming the other way :thumbup: 

If you have the brakes on when your cornering what pray tell is stoppping the car from leaning excessively to one side ? ........ Keeping the power on keeps the dam'n thing upright ..........  
this is time for gas lots of it too & perhaps a little clutch feathering to keep the amount of slide down .......... If its not twitching slightly it can go a ittle faster (Or maybe a lot) Please realise if this manuvre is done incorrectly the car will either try to spin (360 Degrees) Or may rollover if you are really unlucky/Just plain st00pid  

:cheers:


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

J_Feicht said:


> What is trail-braking? i've never heard anything about trail braking. i might know it by a different name, or even just by description. no one i know knows what "trail-braking" is either.



I have a lot of track and autocross experience, hell I was Milwaukee Region Street Mod. champion a few years back. Not the BEST driver but certainly no slouch! Trial braking or left foot braking is dragging the brakes to rotate the car in certain situations.


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## J_Feicht (Aug 16, 2005)

ohhhh ok, simple car-control rotation. ...
It works, and if you understand your car fantastically it'll work great. but the problem is if something goes wrong you end up in the wall (gravel, tires, whatever it may be) and that's no good. i'm not saying you shouldn't do it, because who am i to talk? it is effective but you just have to stay within your limits. i do it all the time, and i also purposefully brake traction (through power) to rotate the car a lot of the time to make hard corners. but that is more of a drift. 
but this is way off topic to the original topic of double clutching.


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## p_reed (Jul 5, 2004)

In my personal opinion, the only real application that double clutching has, is when you are either going from 1st to 2nd or from 2nd to 1st. Any other time it is just overkill. however that doesnt mean that is not a esiential skill to learn.


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## ks2 tuning (Sep 27, 2005)

Maybe I can shed a touch of ligt on the matters, Trail braking is an advanced driving technique it's done for different reasons depending on the situation, let's say you have a nasty understeer or as they say in NASCAR "push"... by trailbraking the car you keep more weight on the front end deeper into the corner helping the car to "bite" during turn in and mid corner, also as mentioned before it helps rotate a car that has too much rear grip at mid corner. 
the keys to proper trailbraking are during the intial braking, use max braking force before turn in allowing you to ease off the brakes as the car slows and allowing the car to have a gentle transfer of weight to the rear which leads to the second stage, getting back on the throttle, as you release the brakes weight will tranfer rearward and you must apply the throttle as quickly and smoothly as possible to stop the rotation,(or the back will step out to far) a balanced throttle position will allow you to balance the car as you slowly unwind the steering and squeeze on the throttle as you exit the corner,

Double clutching is for old english cars with lousy transmissions...lol

as you approach the braking zone you, brake THEN down shift do not use the engine to slow the car, we downshift to put the car in the proper gear for corner exit
1 brake, slowing car for corner entry
2 as the car slows you down shift by clutch in, move shifter to neutral, quick blip throttle (3000 rpms or so) shift to lower gear, clutch out.... all done while maintaining the same brake pressure.....
3 You do not need to shift into all the gears as you downshift, it's perfectly ok to go from 5th to 3rd in one shift, you just have to wait until the car is slowed to 3rd gear speed, or the rear end will lock up when you let the clutch out (same reason we blip the throttle on downshifting, if you don't blip the engine will be going 1000 rpm the trans is going at a higher rpm and the rear end will lock when decluctching... its not done to speed up the trans, it's done to speed up the engine to match the road speed for that gear your selecting)

Hope this helps, as for my experience i was a racing instructor at the jim russell school at laguna seca and sears point for 11 years and skip barber for 3 (various tracks) before starting my own business

have fun and practice practice practice


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## rickk (Oct 24, 2005)

Is the shifting technique anything like the heel toe double bass technique? I can play the drum kit way no problem, but have never seen the downshifting technique demonstrated.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

LOL WTF?!
expect me to pay $100 for some stupid video that tells your how to do something you can easily learn on your own...

not to mention coming in here and asking if it's the same thing? WTF.


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## rickk (Oct 24, 2005)

Matt93SE said:


> LOL WTF?!
> expect me to pay $100 for some stupid video that tells your how to do something you can easily learn on your own...
> 
> not to mention coming in here and asking if it's the same thing? WTF.


Are you talking to me? I just wanna know if it's the same technique?


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

since I can't see the other one without paying $100, I'm not going to answer that.


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## rickk (Oct 24, 2005)

Matt93SE said:


> since I can't see the other one without paying $100, I'm not going to answer that.


Do you mean the $9 video? I wasn't suggesting that you buy it... was just hoping someone already knew that method.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## McCoy (Sep 16, 2003)

Ken, thanks for sharing some very good info here.

A few comments related to track days and sentra's that I have learned over the past few years...


ks2 tuning said:


> 2 as the car slows you down shift by clutch in, move shifter to neutral, quick blip throttle (3000 rpms or so) shift to lower gear, clutch out.... all done while maintaining the same brake pressure.....


I still haven't mastered the art of heel-toe on the track, it probable has something to do with my size 14 shoes and me being 6' 4". As I down shift in my braking zone, I release the clutch slowly as to catch the engine speed back to the tranny speed... this is all done in my braking zone and before I start my turn-in. When done properly, the passanger will not feel the down shift and/or the transition from braking to a steady-state speed entering the corner. The down side to my method is clutch wear, since I'm slowly engaging the clutch, it's dragging and causing excessive wear. 



> 3 You do not need to shift into all the gears as you downshift, it's perfectly ok to go from 5th to 3rd in one shift


I found that when doing the 5th to 3rd downshift, I couldn't always get the shifter into gear. I finally, at an instructors request, started to downshift through each gear while the clutch is still engaged. So, if I was going from 5th to 3rd, I would push clutch in and shift from 5th to 4th, then to 3rd quickly, then release the clutch slowly while still in my braking zone. I've had no problems since then.


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## ks2 tuning (Sep 27, 2005)

McCoy said:


> I still haven't mastered the art of heel-toe on the track, it probable has something to do with my size 14 shoes and me being 6' 4". As I down shift in my braking zone, I release the clutch slowly as to catch the engine speed back to the tranny speed... this is all done in my braking zone and before I start my turn-in. When done properly, the passanger will not feel the down shift and/or the transition from braking to a steady-state speed entering the corner. The down side to my method is clutch wear, since I'm slowly engaging the clutch, it's dragging and causing excessive wear.


yeah it can be a tricky bit of business heel and toe downshifting. but with practice it is the only way to do it properly... "heel and toe" as it's called is a bit of a mis-name in most cars it's actually more of a heel and the side of your foot type of thing due to the large gap between the brake and throttle pedals... while the car is turned off, try putting half of your right foot or a tic more on the brake pedal just the ball of it is fine, let your heel rest on the floor. now push down on the brake pedal hard, while maintaing the brake pedal pressure roll your ankle over and catch the throttle with the side of your foot. play with the position of your toes on the brake pedal and the placement of your heel... in a formula car the pedals are so close its actually just the toe end of your foot that does all the work, your heel does nothing but sit there and look good... as for dragging the clutch if it's rough when you release the clutch at a normal rate you probably have to rev the engine a bit higher before making your down shift.[/QUOTE]




McCoy said:


> I found that when doing the 5th to 3rd downshift, I couldn't always get the shifter into gear. I finally, at an instructors request, started to downshift through each gear while the clutch is still engaged. So, if I was going from 5th to 3rd, I would push clutch in and shift from 5th to 4th, then to 3rd quickly, then release the clutch slowly while still in my braking zone. I've had no problems since then.


Thats pefectly fine, the clutch is engaged so your not using the engine to slow the car, which is good, and as noted before if your braking zone is 40 feet long under max braking, and your not slowing the car with the engine then the zone is 40 feet long no matter what method you use to down shift. As long as its smooth and your in the right gear for the approaching corner. hitting all the gears or skipping some it's up to driver preference...


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## McCoy (Sep 16, 2003)

ks2 tuning said:


> yeah it can be a tricky bit of business heel and toe downshifting. but with practice it is the only way to do it properly... "heel and toe" as it's called is a bit of a mis-name in most cars it's actually more of a heel and the side of your foot type of thing due to the large gap between the brake and throttle pedals...


This is the method that I prefer from driving other cars on the street. With the sentra, I miss the gas pedal competely with the side of my foot, as funny as that sounds. I am actually going to purchase the Sparco "grip" pedal set and use the gas pedal since it effectivly moves the gas and brake pedal closer together, and this should allow me to do what you mentioned above.



> Thats pefectly fine, the clutch is engaged so your not using the engine to slow the car, which is good, and as noted before if your braking zone is 40 feet long under max braking, and your not slowing the car with the engine then the zone is 40 feet long no matter what method you use to down shift. As long as its smooth and your in the right gear for the approaching corner. hitting all the gears or skipping some it's up to driver preference...


yeah, on our local track (Spokane Raceway Park) that I have used we have a couple of long straights followed by long braking zones (135 to 55 and 110 to 50) that give you plenty of time to get the downshifts right... 

I wish I lived in California sometimes, but then again my sentra would not be street legal .


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

I started learning heel-and-toe in a Chevy S-10, of all things. Its pedals were actually well situated to do it. I found the Sentra pedals to be well-placed, too, though they could stand to be a tad closer together.

As you get better, 6,000 rpm throttle blips will be well within your repertoire.


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## S&S-Ralli (Oct 31, 2005)

*dur...*

To be truthful, I haven't read all of the posts above ^. However in the described cars, I would say weight distribution, and breaking would be more benificial than shifting. Left foot breaking, pendulum turning are good things to learn. With that said, the result would be better shifting, once you learn more about your car. These things will teach you about over/understeer, and how to manage and use them.


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## 06xtrail (Oct 18, 2005)

I agree with ks2. Double clutching is more for the movies then anything. I have used the gearing change mid corner to help with bring the rear of the car out but you should always go into the corner with the intent of coming out faster. If you dont, you most lkely will end up where you dont what to be. I used the double clutch only a few times downshifting in my last rally car (Subaru) only to try and save the tranny. My old 510 rally car would shift so fast, I would literaly push in then let out immediatly and shift at the same time, usualy in less then 1 second. I loved that car....
Mark
A few years racing...


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## modenaf1 (Nov 12, 2005)

Well, my take on this:

You double clutch if you want to:
-Downshift into an unsynchronized gear (1st gear usually)
-Save on your synchros as you are doing their work for them by spooling the transmission by reving the engine with the clutch out in neutral.

In some cars it is much easier and precise than others, my old VW for example, but you can also do a clutchless shift which works just like double clutching but you are and changing gears without the clutch in. Basically you make it so the engine is not putting any load on transmission, acceleration OR deceleration, then you will be able to freely move the gear lever out of gear into neutral, where you blip to rev match and return to the throttle position where the engine is putting no load, and in theory, if it all turns out perfectly (like I said, much easier on some cars than others), it will slip right into the lower gear syncronized or unsyncronized, without any problems.


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## Tycar (Dec 13, 2005)

this sounds stupid and i know its not called double clutching, but as far as straight aways and getting up to speed quickly, a friend of mine described popping the clutch in very quickly in the middle of a gear while keeping your foot on the gas and tranny in gear to essentially rev 3-4 thousand more than you are and hit a high HP rpm and cut the waiting time to get to that power. so essentially you are going from 3k (due to a bog down from a shift or some other reason) to about 6K by punching the clutch in for a split second then releasing it and having it engage at a much higher RPM. i know thats not double clutching, but thats what he called it. i was wondering if anyone had any idea on what this is really called and any advantages/drawbacks to it?


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

It is called power shifting and is a sure fire way to make your tranny take a shit. It doesn't do anything but cause problems.... 

It is not double clutching and it does not increase the RPM's other than taking a little less time to shift.


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## Tycar (Dec 13, 2005)

wes said:


> It is called power shifting and is a sure fire way to make your tranny take a shit. It doesn't do anything but cause problems....
> 
> It is not double clutching and it does not increase the RPM's other than taking a little less time to shift.


no, not power shifting, from my understanding, power shifting is basicly not taking you foot off the gas while shifting and in effect your shift would consist of:
1) foot on gas
2) Foot on clutch
3) shifter out of gear
4) Shifter in gear
5) foot of clutch
6) keep foot on gas still

but what I'm talking about would go like this:
1) foot on gas
2) foot off gas
3) foot on clutch
4) shifter out of gear/back into higher gear)
5) foot off clutch
6) foot back on gas
7) foot still on gas
8) foot on and off clutch in a fraction of a second (essentially slamming the clutch down and releasing as fast as possible)
9) foot still on gas
10) repeat from step 1 again

does that make sense what i'm talking about now? i dont know what its called, but i didnt think it was power shifting because i thought that the first part was called power shifting


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

This is just silly. Waste of time and IMHO has zero benefit.... There is no need to do this if you are shifting at the proper points to fall back to torque peak. You will only limit the power getting to the wheels and fry the clutch more quickly...


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## ks2 tuning (Sep 27, 2005)

tycar, that's just gonna burn up your clutch or snap something in your gear box if you have a really good clutch... the object in upshifting while driving with enthusiasm, is to maintain power to the ground as much as possible so try this:

1. hit redline, foot off gas
2. clutch in, upshift
3.clutch out, foot on gas
remember: shift quickly and smoothly you don't have to tear anything out by it's roots...

by the way for this discussion double clutching was mentioned mainly for down shifting, if you need to double clutch while upshifting your driving an old school bus or something from england


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## Tycar (Dec 13, 2005)

ks2 tuning said:


> tycar, that's just gonna burn up your clutch or snap something in your gear box if you have a really good clutch... the object in upshifting while driving with enthusiasm, is to maintain power to the ground as much as possible so try this:
> 
> 1. hit redline, foot off gas
> 2. clutch in, upshift
> ...



haha, so in other words, shift. period. i wasnt about to do what i described, it seemed like a waste of time but i didnt know if anyone had heard of it too, thats all, i'm not an idiot who just follows what my bumbass friends say haha


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