# Just something I've begun to notice



## Sethticlees (May 30, 2002)

Why is it my B14 handles like a dream when compared to my B13?

Check this out. Both cars have the exact same setup. 
Both cars have GR2 struts/shocks, stock SE-R springs, front STB's, stock SE-R sway bars, fresh alignments w/ .5 – 1.0 degree poor boy camber.
The cars have virtually identical setups and yet the B14 handles like a BMW while the B13 is all out of whack. I take the exact same rout to work every day and where the B14 delivers the B13 always seems a bit shaky or squirrelly. 

Is this common? I was the under the impression the B13 suspension was superior to the B14's?


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## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

yea so did i..............u sure its all setup the same? maybe the stock springs on the b13 arent as good as the b14's? dunno


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## wickedsr20 (Aug 8, 2002)

One big thing to keep in mind. The 93's suspension bushings are approaching 12 years old. Know what happens to rubber bushings that have been performing their job and exposed to the elements after that long? 

Sounds like the B14 has much fresher bushings and a much better road feel than the B13. Get some urethane bushings for the B13 and it will feel like a completely different car.


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## Nismo1997 (Dec 26, 2003)

wickedsr20 said:


> One big thing to keep in mind. The 93's suspension bushings are approaching 12 years old. Know what happens to rubber bushings that have been performing their job and exposed to the elements after that long?
> 
> Sounds like the B14 has much fresher bushings and a much better road feel than the B13. Get some urethane bushings for the B13 and it will feel like a completely different car.


Yes engery makes a full bushing kit for your b13 for like 110$ +shipping


I have a set of stock b14 coils if you want to make me a offer


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## Sethticlees (May 30, 2002)

wickedsr20 said:


> One big thing to keep in mind. The 93's suspension bushings are approaching 12 years old. Know what happens to rubber bushings that have been performing their job and exposed to the elements after that long?



You got a good point! My B14 also had new control arms w/bushings (forgot to mention). Maybe thats the difference? The swaybar bushings are new on the both cars but control arm bushings for the B13 are old. Maybe thats all it needs


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

It's also due to chassis rigidity. It's often overlooked but influences ride quality and handling almost as much as the suspension itself. You can have the best supension setup but if the chassis of the car is not rigid enough, the car simply won't have the confident handling you'd expect.

Reputable sources say that when Nissan came out with the B14, they stiffened up the chassis by 30+% compared to the B13.

I have a B14 and despite all the suspension mods I did to my car, I couldn't figure out why the f*$! my car didn't ride and handle like my friend's B15 sentra. We both have Tein SS coilovers, but I have some additional suspension mods and my car is lighter than his. But his car feels so much more confident than mine, the chassis is the only thing that could make such a night and day difference.

If you get the chance to ride in a B15 with susp. mods, you'll know what I mean.


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## niky (Jul 20, 2002)

The B15 is supposed to be a hell of a lot stiffer than the B14... whatever these cars lost with losing the rear multi-link has been compensated by the chassis stiffness. One hopes that they increase the shock travel, though... model after model, they seem to ignore this.

The downside is it's a really heavy chassis.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

niky said:


> The B15 is supposed to be a hell of a lot stiffer than the B14... whatever these cars lost with losing the rear multi-link has been compensated by the chassis stiffness. One hopes that they increase the shock travel, though... model after model, they seem to ignore this.
> 
> The downside is it's a really heavy chassis.


Makes sense... I couldn't get why I didn't have the same kind of feedback as my friends B15. It's amazing how much more communication it has - you can feel everythign the tires are doing. My 200SX will always be limited by the chassis and that kind of sucks.

And I think the B15's travel has improved, at least a little. My friend and I both had similar suspension setups in the past, and even wtih eibach springs he never bottomed. My B14 was bought with Progress springs, AGXs and Motivational rear mounts and I would bottom out fairly often.


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## Coheed (Oct 12, 2004)

I guess this means you just get to put in a sexy roll cage to stiffen up the chassis. :thumbup: A roll cage can have a night-day difference on handling, and you can make it yourself.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

I'd like to see a properly done roll cage done DIY... not going to happen with the general car enthusiast.

but look into some subframe connectors/bracing. made a HUGE difference on my Maxima as well. ride quality and handling.

the control arm bushings on mine were also a huge difference. I replace the stock OE ones with new ones a couple years ago and the ride got a lot better, but it still just wasn't what I wanted. finally put together a poly set from another year Maxima and the difference was insane.. no more wheel hop, GREAT feedback from the road, and the car will pull 1.2G on race tires on the track.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

Matt93SE said:


> I'd like to see a properly done roll cage done DIY... not going to happen with the general car enthusiast.
> 
> but look into some subframe connectors/bracing. made a HUGE difference on my Maxima as well. ride quality and handling.
> 
> the control arm bushings on mine were also a huge difference. I replace the stock OE ones with new ones a couple years ago and the ride got a lot better, but it still just wasn't what I wanted. finally put together a poly set from another year Maxima and the difference was insane.. no more wheel hop, GREAT feedback from the road, and the car will pull 1.2G on race tires on the track.


Good ideas. Too bad there aren't too many things available for B14s as far as chassis bracing. Control arm braces and strut bars seem to be the only things out there. 

I want to look into a shop putting "bridge welds" everywhere underneath my car - like little reinforcement metal tabs lining all the areas where subframe pieces come together. 

I recently had ES front control arm bushings installed and they made a nice difference by getting rid of some "slop" in the front arms but nothing night-and-day. I'm sure a car with a better chassis (like your Max) would feel the improvement more than mine. I hate how a sub-par chassis negates the effects of the expensive suspension mods I've done.

As far as your handling you mean 1.02 Gs right? 1.02Gs is pretty impressive for a front-driver, I wish my car could get within reach of that, but I'm dreaming. How did you measure the lateral Gs, with a G-Tech Pro? I'm also looking at one of those for my car.


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## niky (Jul 20, 2002)

You guys could try adding some additional welds along the seams where braces cross body plates... that's what Mitsubishi does with the Evolution cars over stock Lancers, just a ton more welds in certain places. The bridge weld idea sounds cool, too. But this stuff will probably add quite a bit of weight.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

Yeah, the welds would add some weight. I saw an article about a full-race civic getting these welds done to strengthen the chassis. Fromthe pictures it looked like maybe 40 or 50 small metal tabs welded down. I wouldn't think it would weigh more than 50 pounds total, and the added weight is at the bottom of the car so it is all below the center of gravity. Looks well worth the effort.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

how large are those metal tabs? in order for them to way a pound each, they've got to be 1/8" think (which is what I coule expect), and be larger than your hand-- that is, unless you're Shaq... 
reinforcing the frame like that will make a huge difference- talk to any fox body mustang owner that's seam-welded their car.. incredible difference! and it works better on cars with a weak frame instead of something with a stronger one.

I CAN say though that my subframe connectors reduced chassis flex by easily 2/3... I used to be able to put three corners (both fronts and one rear) of the car on jack stands, and the third one, I could bend the chassis almost 1.5" before the jack would drop from under the 4th corner with the car now resting on 3 stands.. After my subframe connectors, the thing does now visibly flex at all. I can put the car on the same 3 stands in the same points, and when I drop the jack from under the 4th point, I don't see the chassis flex at all.

when I do the heater core on this thing (this week's project), I'm going to strip the firewall down to bare metal, remove some of the excess wiring (power seats, digital dash ABS stuff, etc etc), and when I get that far down, I'm going to go ahead and strip off the paint and seam weld all of the sheet metal down there, as well as adding some braces and the mounting plates for the roll cage. going to be a fun project.


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## niky (Jul 20, 2002)

Damn, sounds like some mad tite shit (hehehe) right there!


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

Oh.. and I DID mean 1.2 lateral Gs.. not 1.02.. 1.2

I pull around .9 on street tires on concrete. I pull 1.05 on slicks on concrete, and I pull 1.2 on a track surface that's got rubber laid down already.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

Matt, do you have any pictures of the seam-welding you've done on your car? I assume that seam-welding is the "official" term for such a modification? I really want to get it done now, I have all but given up on getting the B14's chassis up to par.

1.2Gs thats some handling. you can understand why I assumed it was a typo since the first time I read that post I couldn't picture a Maxima holding the road better than the Lotus Elise... Again, how did you measure these numbers? I know nothing about your car and therefore will not assume anything about it - tell me more about your handling mods please!

Sounds like you have put much thought into your cars chassis and suspension. Thank you for sharing your great info, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on chassis reinforcement and handling. What elase have you done to your car that's above and beyond the usual bolt-on stuff?


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

here's a few pics so you can see some of what I've done..
http://www.mattblehm.com/pics/car/
scroll down to the suspension and brakes folders for some goodies. 

the ones that aren't listed on there are the GC-type coilovers w/ some beefy springs on them. I'm running 450lb/in up front and 350 in the back. next step I'm going with 600 /500 and see how that helps. the car still has too much bodyroll in the corners.

I haven't done any real seam welding on my car yet, but you can see a few of the parts of the suspension I've worked on. namely stiffening up the engine crossmember (after it snapped twice in two years), and welding up the rear suspsneion crossmember when I installed the heim joint rear suspension. I also did the front control arms, but that was just because I felt like welding something that day.  I don't know if it made a difference or not, but there were only about six spot welds holding the entire control arm together. pretty scary, IMO. so I fixed that.

the cliffs notes: (stuff designed and built myself in blue)
Lower Tie Bar
Subframe connectors
structural foam in the chassis
GC-type coilovers/ Koni shocks
modified upper strut mounts for more travel
F&R sway bars
FSTB
RSTB
Heim joint rear suspension
energy suspension bushings on the front control arms

The next steps in the suspension are some custom fully adjustable shocks (the compression damping rates on Konis SUCK compared to the stuff available for Tein, JIC, etc coilovers on the other model Maximas..... but nothing fits the 89-94 models so I have to do it all custom.)
...... and a roll cage.


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## Greg200SE-R (Feb 5, 2003)

Nice pictures Matt. I really like the subframe additions you made. Did you actually weld on the piping that runs along the sides of the subframe? And the "X" shaped bracing as well? I'm not familiar with the term Heim joint - can you elaborate? It's probably something you can only do to an independednt rear susp huh.... the rear beam on B14s really limits what I can build up back there. 

I've always wanted to think up a way to incorporate chassis bracing like that on my car. It's home-brewed, well thought-out mods like yours that real enthusiasts think of. With the unusual engineering of the B14s, I guess it's gonna be custom work for me too. 

Thanks again for your info Matt, good luck with your future mods!


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## p_reed (Jul 5, 2004)

Are the tires the same? that is the one thing that is conected to the road, they make and break handling.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

The subframe connectors are actually made by Warpspeed performance. it's a bolt-on/weld-on mod. very cheap for the benefits in handling!

http://www.warpspeedperformance.com/sfcs.htm

Yes, the long rails are welded to the floor stiffeners on the bottom of the car. they can be removed with a grinder if need be, but honestly I'd just leave them on the car if/when you sell it. the X bracing in the middle is a bolt-on affair and can be removed in about 15 minutes if I need to work on the exhaust.


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

I know this dosn't have anything to do with nissans, but its been mentioned several times...alot of manufactures will make improvments to the chassi itself when doing a redesign. 
I read an article about the WRX before it was released. Subaru said that they made the new chassi 200% stiffer than the old imprezas were. They had a big focus on handeling. 
I know that Nissan never really focused much on making the B13 and B14 chassis handel very well...just search some posts about the bottoming out problems we have. But with some work they can be made quick enough and handel well enough to beat BMW M3s on the track. The M3 has been said to be one of the "most trackworthy" cars ever mass produced. So thats pretty good considering how cheap the Sentra/200sx is compared to the M3.


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## Matt93SE (Sep 17, 2003)

heh.. well, there's a HUGE difference between talk and action.

it can only outhandle an M3 on the track if the M3 is bone stock, the B14 is modded to the hilt, and has a really good driver.

been there, done that. passed a lot of M3s on the track with new drivers, then an instructor will get in same car and leave me behind in the corners.


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## niky (Jul 20, 2002)

LOL... any car modified all the way will be stiff as hell and ride as if it were on rails... well, ALMOST any car. Reminds me of SCCs first track attack shootout... where a turbo B13 SE-R blew away a lot of the competition (still didn't win, though) because A.) it was well set-up, and B.) the driver knew the track like the back of his head.


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## Honest Bob (Nov 7, 2002)

Wow, my stock B13 SE-R feels like it rides on rails compared to my B14 XE. The B14 is a reconstruct. Guess I cant really compare them being as they arent both SE-Rs.


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