# engine stalled w/o significant signs, still wont start



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi everyone!
Never thought this would happen to me. 
The car stalled yesterday, tried to restart, engine turns but does want to start. A few times, like this morning, it sputtered a bit but no start still.
Info on the car and some hist (pls be patient, I'm putting as much detail as I can):
95 sentra gxe, a/t, 155t mi, replaced dist with reman again, pulled out fuel filter blew into it - a bit resistant on the intake (about a year old), last change of spark plugs about 10 monts ago, ignition wires about a year ago, ignition rotor and dist cover about 7 months ago, maf sensor, iacv, air temp sensors all changed new from Nissan about 17 months ago.

There are no codes.

Other things on the car that may be the issue: was able to find that the cam sprockets have a tooth missing and the intermediate timing sprocket a tooth a half missing, but the ignition rotor turns as the engine turns.
Did find also that when I opened the gas cap, there was no pressure, maybe the fuel pump? - but it does make the humming sound when the ignition is turned to "on". I also have check the fuel pump fuse no problem there but still replaced it anyway.
Fuel that was put in? I gased up $20 worth at a reputable station but the location had a bad reputation of bad gas. idk
Electrical works - accessories, guage clusters.

A couple of starts before the car stalled, when cold the engine would run rough for a few seconds, figured it was just cold. And for a few weeks now, it seemed to misfire. I cant be sure because it was very inconsistent. You would feelt it at around 2500 rpm (est, sorry no tach).
I will now check and see if the chain did jump. 
Please post your ideas. thanks very much


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Update: timing chain ok. cams turn. at #1 piston top dead center, ignition rotor pointing directly at number 1 tower.

Also sparyed the air intake with maf sensor cleaner, throttle body with carb cleaner, spark in the distributor is bright.

One thing I forgot, maybe does not have anything to do with this, ever since I got the car, gas mileage sucks. The best I got was 26mpg (happened only 2x on a full load of gas), lowest 12mpg all city. average is 17mpg consistently.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Can you hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds when you turn on the key (not cranking it, just turn the key to the ON position)?
After checking that, pop the fuel line coming off the filter and cycle the key again. Be ready for a rush of fuel if the pump is working correctly, rags, catch can, etc. But, if it's not working, you won't get any fuel.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

will do. Im talking to all mechanics I can contact. Im getting a clear bottle and put the fuel line in it to be able to check also the quality of fuel. 
Also will be checking the dang alarm. This could be the culprit.
Thanks!


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

btw, pump is making the whirring sound. we checked that too.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

ok, got a sample of the gas, put the fuel hose before the filter in a bottle. Please check this video out:

‪gas.wmv‬‏ - YouTube

That's the amount of gas that was pumped when I turned the ignition on. As far as the color is concern, that's not how I know gas. Where I come from its a dark pink. As far as the smell in concerned, it does smell like gas. the fuel is pretty clean I would say.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

I forget if you've done this before or not...but if not, here goes...

Pull the fuel pump fuse, crank the engine over, do it multiple times, make double sure that you don't have any fuel left anywhere in the engine. Make it easier on the engine/starter and pull all the plugs out before you crank the engine over.
Pull all the spark plugs out, clean them off, put them back in...or better yet, go out and buy some brand new NGK plugs for it.
Put the fuel pump fuse back in, cycle the key on, wait 2 seconds, turn it off, wait about 5-10 seconds, turn it on, wait 2 seconds, turn it off. Do this 2 or 3 times.
Then try to start the engine...

These GA16DE's have a kinda-sorta known problem (more of a semi-issue than an actual problem, but that's beside the point) that when you start the engine, and shut it off like really quick after starting it (like a 10 second run or something), it somehow floods itself out and gets the plugs kinda gas fouled and the damn things won't start for nothing.

Also a note on something you mentioned above about #1 piston at TDC with distributor pointing directly at #1 tower. That, to me, doesn't seem 100% right. It shouldn't be pointing directly at the tower. It should be off to one side just a bit because the base timing is advanced 8-10 degrees.
How did you determine #1 TDC? By the marks on the crank pulley or did you slowly rotate the engine with something down the #1 plug hole?
If you used the marks on the crank pulley, the pulley could've slipped on the balancer making that method completely useless. The only way to make 100% sure is to stick something long and thin down the #1 plug and rotate the engine by hand.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Hey jd, I figured that since the engine just went dead while I was driving to rule out a flooded engine. But it could have flooded while trying to start it. The only thing I tried is to press the accelator to the floor while starting. I will try your suggestion. 

re the how I determined tdc - piston #1 highest point with a wire hanger stuck in the spark plug hole. The ignition rotor was pointing to the #1 tower on the cap because I did replace the distributor and the timing is not adjusted. I did try different positions of the distributor while trying to start the engine. My crank pulley marks are no good. My pulley had moved already, probably started to move after I changed my front crankshaft oil seal.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

ok, just did what jd suggested - pulled the plugs out, turned the engine w/o the fuel pump fuse on a few times. replaced the plugs with new ones, turned on the ignition until the pump stops then off for a few seconds then on again. Did this a few times. then started the engine. 
It sputtered a bit then no start again. tries it again, no sputtering, just a no start. Im taking off the cat next. But I did replace it with a new one around the time I replaced the maf sensor. Let's see. I need to get my car out of the street. Its street cleaning on my side today.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Put the #1 piston back at it's highest point, then rotate the crankshaft backwards (against the normal direction of rotation) about 15 degrees or so (about 3/4" inch or so at the outside of the pulley), loosen up your distributor and turn it so the rotor points right at #1 tower. It should NOT be pointing directly at #1 with #1 at TDC. If it is, your base timing is actually 0 degrees advanced and it's no wonder that you're having such a tough time getting it to fire.
When cranking the engine, DON'T touch the accelerator.
Why are you pulling the cat again? For a no-fire condition? Makes zero sense...


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

I dont step on the accelerator when I start the engine. Not my habit. 
The condition is pointing toward timing correct. My thoughts are the chain did jump. Im counting links next chance I get (started raining now). Would 1 tooth any of the sprockets produce this situation? No valve hitting the piston sound as far as I could tell. 
If the cat is clogged enough, the engine wouldn't run? or will it only rough?


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Stepping on accelerator - it's some people's habit...Just makin' sure...
I don't think the timing is correct and it wouldn't hurt to try it with it advanced a bit. Scribe a line on the distributor and you can always put it back where it was.

Chain one tooth off? From experience, it WILL hit if both cams are off. I never did check to see which one hit (intake or exhaust), but one of them did make contact. The "old school V8 engine" me says that one tooth off will make it run rough, but it'll still run. The "new school inline 4 cylinder" me says it might run. It'll either idle really good or wind out really good, but not both.

Cat clogged? I've had a clogged cat on a 95 Impala V6. Idled fine but wouldn't rev up at all. Then again, your clogged cat and my clogged cat are two different clogged cats and that statement likely doesn't mean much. I'd doubt a clogged cat. You would've smelled it long before it clogged up enough to wreck things and you would remember that smell (rotten eggs, sulpher, sewage, etc.).


----------



## rogoman (Dec 16, 2004)

Jopet said:


> Hey jd, I figured that since the engine just went dead while I was driving to rule out a flooded engine. But it could have flooded while trying to start it. The only thing I tried is to press the accelator to the floor while starting. I will try your suggestion.
> 
> re the how I determined tdc - piston #1 highest point with a wire hanger stuck in the spark plug hole. The ignition rotor was pointing to the #1 tower on the cap because I did replace the distributor and the timing is not adjusted. I did try different positions of the distributor while trying to start the engine. My crank pulley marks are no good. My pulley had moved already, probably started to move after I changed my front crankshaft oil seal.


Using a wire hanger to determine TDC is not the way to do it. As the piston traverses from the up stroke to a down stroke, it barely is moving, while the crankshaft has turned many degrees. So while you think you're at TDC, the crank will most likely be many degrees off.

If the timing marks on the pulley are now incorrect due to damage of the rubber damper, then it's best to replace the crank pulley.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

thanks for the tips and reminders. I forgot about the 'rotten eggs smell' when the cat goes. 
I will have a chance to peek at the chains tomorrow. I never had a 'no fire' when I replaced my distributor, several times now, before. It will not be the correct timing but it always starts up. I will be doing the 'walk the town' bit tomorrow. get new cap and rotor just to be sure. I keep forgetting to check the wires as well. 
Might there be anything else that is missed? The trouble might not have had a chance to get the information to come up with a code?


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Crank sensor for one thing... Might want to make a double check of the rest of the fuses while you're at it. Ya never know. Might have an injector fuse that bit it...


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Just found the issue, I hope. Tell me if my assumptions are correct.
Counted the rollers on top of the upper chain between to top sprockets = 16 = good. to the right side going down to the intermediate sprocket = 18! should be 16.
I know now why I was still getting the rattle even though I replaced my upper timing chain tensioner - the intermediate sprocket for the upper chain are worn and about half the size of the teeth of the other sprockets. Never really noticed this before. Now I know what to look out for.
Now its replacing the sprockets and most likely, the whole timing kit. Good thing I've been reading a lot about this repair for quite some time now. The only thing that was keeping me from doing this was the cost of the intake cam sprocket. 
My dad will be driving me to PA to the junk yards there for the intake sprocket. 

I guess the car said that I really need to do this NOW!
I would like to comment that this is not at all bad -I will be able to fix what needs fixing, summer time - no snow, rained yesterday that cooled down the temp, had enough time to study the repair. 
Please post your opinions, comments and suggestions. Thanks everyone!


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Need a favor guys. A little strapped for time. And have no time to search. I know the procedure on replacing the timing chain - new one, not the one in the manual. 
What I need is the parts list that comes along with the repair. I know the timing parts - it comes in a kit then the intake sprocket.
The other parts are the gaskets, seal and the kind of liquid seal to use. I know that the oil pan needs to be removed. Unfortunately I will not have enough money for the water and oil pumps or even the thermostat.
thanks a bunch!


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Don't need to replace the oil pump unless you KNOW you're is bad or on the way out.
But...not replacing the water pump/thermostat, in my mind, false economy. I think you'll end up paying for that in the future, if not in $$$, then in time and $$$ spent, especially when you will eventually have it in your hand, separated from everything else.
If you get a "head" kit, you'll have everything you need as far as gaskets go. Mine cost about $100 for everything, and I used "gray permatex" for the sealant. I used to use the orange stuff exclusively, but the gray stuff matches what the Nissan FSM calls for.
And good luck finding that intake sprocket. If it's a VTC sprocket, it'll either cost you about $200-$300 new or, well, used, you're just taking your chances big time. Would you trust a used sprocket that might break somehow and cause the timing chain to jump some more and hit some valves?

One other thing...
Before you go ANY farther, you'd better do a compression check on ALL cylinders and do it right. If you're timing chain jumped at all, chances are you knocked a valve into a piston and now you've got a bent valve, which will mean pulling the head (piece of cake since you'll already be half-way there), getting it resurfaced (about $40-ish) and buying new valves (about $10 each) to replace the bent one.
Charge up the battery, pull the distributor (or at least the cap), pull all the spark plugs out, pull the fuel pump fuse, block the throttle wide open, hook up the compression gauge to each cylinder in turn, hit the starter so the engine goes around about 4-5 times and take a reading. The cylinders with bent valves will show almost zero compression, and I'd be willing to bet you've got one or two cylinders that show just that...zero compression.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

That's pretty scary senario. Damn! I hope my luck is still going. I have also read about removing the head. Honestly, I not as confident as replacing the timing chains. 
I do feel that a compression test is in the offing. I have a couple of days before the parts get here anyway. Can I do the test even if the timing chain is off? Or do I fix adjust the chain before turning the engine?
I just got back from PA. Yup, I got the VTC intake sprocket. $2 over there. Brand new, I have not found it less than $400. I'm going to gamble with it. I am very diligent with oil changes and use quality oil. The part I got still got oil on it too and with complete set of teeth. 
Thank you again. And I'll post any news on this repari.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jopet said:


> The part I got still got oil on it too and with complete set of teeth.


So does my ex-wife...but that's beside the point  zing!!!

Pulling the head is a bit more work, mainly in bending your arm in a few extra places to get to the bolts in back, but it's not that much worse otherwise. And you'll have the satisfaction of knowing for a fact that everything is good in there once you get it off.
Can't do a compression check without timing chains unless you get a leak-down testing equipment (a couple of air pressure gauges, regulator, and a manifold) and an air compressor. If you can, put the chains back on, turn the engine by hand for a few complete revolutions, then check the compression...but you MUST have the chains/sprockets on in the correct alignment otherwise the compression check won't do you any good and you just might smack another couple of valves.
$2 VTC eh? About all I can say is good luck with that. If it's been out in the elements, I think I would let it sit in oil for awhile, flush it out for awhile, then let it sit in oil again...otherwise, well, I think it's a crap shoot, but obviously, anything with a full set of teeth is likely better than what you've got now.

Come to think of it, you might be able to get away with pulling the cams off and having a look at the valve stem tips. A valve that is bent will likely be sitting lower than an unbent one. But you have to measure them accurately. Eyeballing them won't do any good unless it's severely bent. When I bent mine, they were just barely bent enough to see light between the valve and the seat. You might get lucky and be able to see one for sure, but I'd doubt it. This would be one of those things that would tell you for sure you had a bent valve vs. telling you for sure that all valves are good. Kinda like a tire...You can easily tell if a tire is flat, but you can't say for sure if a tire that's not flat has the correct pressure. Follow me? Make any sense?

In short, I'm betting on bent valves...


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

I think the leak down test woiuld be a better option. Dont want to turn the engine with the starter. 
I also understand "the satifaction" that all is good in the engine. The junk yard is acutually selling engines w/ tranny @ $195 bucks. But I may be back to where I started a few thou miles back and here where I am right now. I may spend more than $200 bucks but knowing that the insides is actually in good condition brings more confidence in driving it around town or long trips.
Im not betting against you, even though I feel bad thinking about it. The car was running sluggishly for a couple of days before it died. I was figuring it was the heat and I had the a/c on full. 
Im looking for some equipment now. thanks of all the info.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Turning the engine with the starter is how you do the compression check. And the leak down check will require extra tools, and you gotta know how to run those tools.
Assuming you haven't broken anything else, you can put the chains back on in the right way and do the compression check no problem.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

got most of the parts for a timing chain replacement.Including the water pump and thermostat. I'm need only the o-rings for the front cover and gaskets replacement for the exhaust. 
I have a question about he oil pan gasket? FSM does not mention it. I just went and ordered one. Its cork material. Is this reliable? or just use the liquid gasket?
And does anyone know if I can get exhaust gasket sheets from auto supply stores? I think I will need to cut one up for the lower part of my headers.
Still cannot find a cylinder leak down tester. I want to make sure before doing anything else. 
So far I opened up the timing chain kit, checked and marked all that needs marking. 
Will update this thread when I have more news. thanks


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

water pump came with gaskets too. use them or just the grey silicone? ty again


----------



## Jdoggsc (Dec 25, 2007)

Sounds like you're up on your maintenance! 

*Anyone considered vacuum hoses? * I know when i've pulled vacuum hoses on the intake while the engine runs. it sputters and quits _quick_. no chance of getting it started again while they're off. It didn't trigger a code, either. Just an idea. 
I'm not saying you pulled a hose off, but if one's rotted, or gotten hard and cracked, that could be an issue. Might be worth it to give those a once-over.

All the info about sprocket teeth and timing is interesting and all, but sprockets don't just hop around on timing chains--too many teeth simultaneously engaged. You'd know if that was going to be an issue if the chain had a lot of slack in it. _*Does* the timing chain have a lot of slack in it?_ cause that would be a tensioner issue for sure, and then a timing issue, but I don't see it being worth spending so much time on timing unless the tensioner's slackened. Even if a sprocket has a tooth missing. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm learning here like the rest of you.


Just for clarification: how does the engine sound when it's starting? Does it just turn with no signs of life? does it sputter, but just never catch (occasional combustion?) . These things are so much easier to diagnose when you can actually listen to them yourself... *sigh*


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jopet said:


> I have a question about he oil pan gasket? FSM does not mention it. I just went and ordered one. Its cork material. Is this reliable? or just use the liquid gasket?


3 schools of thought here.
One says use only the goop, the other says only the cork, the 3rd says put a very thin layer of goop on the cork on the pan and leave the engine side of the cork gasket clean.
I see pluses and minuses for all 3 methods. I personally subscribe to the 3rd method because it's easier to clean crap off the oil pan once it's out than it is to clean the block.



> Still cannot find a cylinder leak down tester. I want to make sure before doing anything else.


Any _decent_ gear head shop will have one, either for rent or to buy.

Water pump - thin layer of goop on the gasket, very very very thin. That's my method. Some will agree, some will disagree. Your call.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jdoggsc said:


> *Anyone considered vacuum hoses? * I know when i've pulled vacuum hoses on the intake while the engine runs. it sputters and quits _quick_. no chance of getting it started again while they're off. It didn't trigger a code, either. Just an idea.
> I'm not saying you pulled a hose off, but if one's rotted, or gotten hard and cracked, that could be an issue. Might be worth it to give those a once-over.


Good point for the O/P to consider. Doesn't cost anything but time...



> All the info about sprocket teeth and timing is interesting and all, but sprockets don't just hop around on timing chains--too many teeth simultaneously engaged. You'd know if that was going to be an issue if the chain had a lot of slack in it. _*Does* the timing chain have a lot of slack in it?_ cause that would be a tensioner issue for sure, and then a timing issue, but I don't see it being worth spending so much time on timing unless the tensioner's slackened. Even if a sprocket has a tooth missing. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm learning here like the rest of you.


O/P mentioned that it just "stalled" while running which sounds to me like the timing chain jumped (happened to me last year due to my own failure to tighten down the lower front timing chain guide bolts!!!) and now he's likely dealing with a couple of bent valves in addition to the other damage.


----------



## Jdoggsc (Dec 25, 2007)

I got about 3/4 the way through this thread and just started speed-reading. missed some stuff that I realize my post above ^ might not address so directly or intelligently anymore. 

If you haven't turned the camshafts or the crankshaft since you removed the timing chain, then you should just be able to connect it back up and do the compression test. If there was any more damage to be done, you've have done it already by now in your efforts to even try to get the car started! Therefore, don't be afraid to check compression with the starter--it's the way it's done.

I'm with jdg--except for the case of extreme deposits on the valves or valve seats (RARE!) a compression test would answer a lot of questions. That'd definitely be my next step. a bent valve stem would definitely do what your car is doing.

Not that a timing chain job isn't a good idea, it's just a lot of work. You seem pretty well convinced that you're going to do it, so I'm not going to talk you out of it.

about the oil pan gasket. I have a liquid gasket on mine. seems to be working great. Couldn't tell you about the others.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

@jdg - good suggestoins on the gaskets. Will do. On the water pump, yes I guess a thin layer of goop

@jdog - I done so many fixes on the car that I forget some (maybe a lot of them). EGR was replaced along with the hose below it to the egr solonoid. Since then I keep checking the vacuum hoses for leaks. Jus the other month I replaced the pcv and the hose. Been really on the issues on the car since I bought it in 2008.
Also forgot - upper timing chain tensioner was replaced about a year ago. Really noob in not being able to check if there were anything else wrong. I should have seen back then the idler sprocket was worn by just comparing the teeth to the upper sprockets. Yup, the chain is loose even after the replacement. Although, after we replaced the tensioner, the engine was more quite than what it used to. 
Putting the chains back to the proper postion is not a problem. I have not turned the engine since I found that the chains jumped. The engine is actually on tdc on #1 piston.

yeah, having not be able to take a check the issues first hand is frustrating. Engine turns, sounds ok, does not fire. Out of countless times of trying to start or testing theories, a couple of times you'd hear a faint sputter but not enough to even change the rpm of the engine.

I'll take pics of the worn parts to have members see what is and what should not be in their car. I know that there are people here that has issues with rattling chains even after an upper tensioner job.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jopet said:


> Yup, the chain is loose even after the replacement. Although, after we replaced the tensioner, the engine was more quite than what it used to.


The chain will be loose even after you replace the tensioner. It will only tighten up while the engine is running and has oil pressure 'cause that's what pushes out the tensioner.



> yeah, having not be able to take a check the issues first hand is frustrating. Engine turns, sounds ok, does not fire. Out of countless times of trying to start or testing theories, a couple of times you'd hear a faint sputter but not enough to even change the rpm of the engine.


Next time you get around to cranking the engine over, after you've put the chains back on, if/when you get ready to do the compression check, or whatever, get a couple of other people to help you out. One guy listens to the intake, one guy listens to the exhaust. If the intake spits back at you on a regular basis, or if it sounds like the exhaust is trying to suck in rather than push out, that's another sure fire sign that you've got bent valves.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi again. Dove into the project after my mechanic neighbor gave the valve a clean bill of health. Hit some snags but were manageable unti now. 
Could not get the front cover off. Getting frustrated with FSM now. The page where the front cover is illutrated just mentions: "remove all cover bolts" but does not show which are bolts and which are guides. It only mentions the 3 incidental bolts that are connected to other parts - motor mount bracket, power steering belt adjustment bracket and water pump. I know I got all the bolts out. Including ther vertical bolts on top inside the upper cover, which was not mentioned in the FSM (took them out just to be sure). counted 14 bolts all together including the power steering belt adjustement bracket, engine mount bracket, water pump and the vertical bolts on toP.
Did I get them all?
Then I need a tip on how to pry open the cover. Once I'm sure I got all the bolts then I can be more aggressive.
I've been using "super scraper". A scraper shaped like a chisel that you can pound on. I've been trying to crack the cover from the bottom. Can't get to the cover from anywhere else. Tried to use a screwdriver, but I've bruised the bottom of the cover between the block. It moved a bit, but goes back when I pulled out the screw driver. 
BTW, seems like someone was already been to the front cover before me. I keep seeing orange sealer around the water pump area and the bolts on the front cover have sealant on them as well.
thanks again for your help.


----------



## LvR. (May 26, 2010)

EM26 in the FSM has a nice clear picture of the front cover bolt locations and includes the warning that one of the bolts live on the water-pump


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Don't pry on that cover too hard! There's already one story here that I remember where a guy did that and ended up with a broken cover.
Ya, one or two of those bolts are really buried in there and once you find them, you'll slap yourself on the head.
What did this "mechanic" do? A leak down test? Compression check? What were the numbers (i.e. leak rates and/or compression numbers depending)?
Inquiring minds want (need) to know...


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Lvr: thanks, thats the image I am looking at. And if I'm correct about the vertical bolts, the FSM does not show that. Had to call a Nissan mechanic to verify if the dowels were dowels and not bolts without heads. 
jdg: Yup, I know the story. That why I'm taking my time. 
I believe I got all to the bolts. Took about half the time I'm working on the project just analysing and feeling the bolts around the cover. Got the 2 hidden bolts to the left of the water pump, one really deep, the other at the very corner of the water pump. 
I actually posted here for information before I googled. I found that the dowels needs to be blasted with penetration oil. Will do that this morning. 
It was a leak down test. Meter showed green. The tester was the kind from harbour frieght. The right meter did not have specific numbers. Just a meter that will show if the cylinder can hold pressure. 
When I put this all together, I will do a pressure test to get more info.
Thanks


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jopet said:


> I actually posted here for information before I googled. I found that the dowels needs to be blasted with penetration oil. Will do that this morning.


Didn't have to shoot my dowels with oil, but everybody's different...



> It was a leak down test. Meter showed green. The tester was the kind from harbour frieght. The right meter did not have specific numbers. Just a meter that will show if the cylinder can hold pressure.


As long as the "meter" needle was in the same place on all the cylinders, that should show one of two things, either all your valves are bent, or none of your valves are bent.  (good positive thinking eh?)
If you do actually have a bent valve, you'd hear it during the leak down test either in the intake or the exhaust manifold, and it wouldn't be quiet either. It would be pronounced and you'd know something was up. If the valves are sealing correctly, at most, you may hear a bit of hissing coming from the crankcase as air sneaks down past the piston rings.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

was able to put in about 4 hours today. cover still wont come out. I did find another bolt. On top corner near the alternator bracket. It was in a corner that sockets could not reach. I unscrewed all bolts that I could find. In effect I was able to remove the water pump.
The cover was generously siliconed by the previous person. It is showing at edges pushed out when the cover was replaced. I wish I could get to some other side to try to pry out. hour of pounding with a soft hammer, still wont come off.
I sprayed the dowels every now and then with penetrating oil, then it started to rain. I hope the oil will seep in and fix my problem. Hope the sun comes out tomorrow


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

You're missing a bolt somewhere. Even with a load of sealant around the edges, the cover should just "pop right off". The dowels aren't going to hold it on there that tight, neither is the sealant. Even with an aluminum cover up against a steel block with sealant packed in around there, and even with a fair amount galvanic corrosion (which the sealant will protect it from), the cover WILL pop right off once broken loose. The penetrating oil isn't doing you any good, but if it makes you feel better, than I say, spray more on there.
4 bolts/screws holding it to the bottom surface of the head...
Did you remove the front/passenger side motor mount assembly?
And there's a bolt back on the power steering pump adjusting bar.

When I get a chance, I'll go out to my '98 and count them ('cause my cover has been off for a couple of months...long story).
In short, quit pounding on it before you break it. A bit of light prying with a paint scraper after you get all the bolts out and it will pop right off.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

jdg: took your advice and looked for more bolts. And yes found another one and somethine else.
I must confess, I did not remove the lower tensioner since I could not see it. But since the water pump is out, I took it out. 
The other bolt is another vertical bolt (4 now in total) in the most unaccecible place. It was just above the lower tensioner, hidden in a corner. Had to us a small closed wrenche to loosen then a screw driver with a driver end for a small socket.
Still had to pound with a soft hammer but this time the cover moved. 
I was able to replace the timing chains and guides for today. Will take a pic of my worn out parts and post it here somehow. Thanks for the advice!!!!


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

forgot to mention - for those reading and looking to do the same job, find some help if you a newbie. 
The vertical bolts are not mentioned in the FSM at the page where the cover is because the 4 bolts,as far as the FSM is concern, has already been removed with the head. Remember the FSM's instruction is to remove the cylinder head. Take now if you're going to do the job.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Timing chain replacement completed! Whew. What a project. All worth it though. Engine is quite as quite as it can me. Just need to replace my muffler to tone the noise down. 
Total work hour approx 36. 
Tools: Ratchets (diff sizes) set sockets sizes needed 10mm, 12, 14, 17, 22, 27. 
closed and open 10mm, 12mm and 14mm wrenches, nothing fancy esp with the 10mm get the smallest for the hidden bolt on top of the cover. 
scredriver that has a socket attachment.
imapct wrench
pulley puller
breaker bar
torque wrench
at least 2 jacks and 2 jack stands
pieces of wooden blocks
PARTS and Materials : timing kit set (get one with the o-rings included, vtc intake sprocket (I dont recommend what I did to get mine), water pump, thermostat, permatex grey slicone sealant, paint scraper ( the one I got was shaped like a chisel and you could pound on it - this is for the oil pan removal and scrapping old sealant), soft hammer, motor oil, oil filter, anti freeze, oil pan gasket, cylinder head gasket, exhast gasket, all other gaskets should come with the parts that you will buy. If you have not repalced you drive belts, this is the best chance to do it. 
Total cost for me for this repair: $150(approx).
Has most of the tools already, borrowed if I did not have it. Some gastkets I had are new from other repairs. 
MOST OF ALL - you will need a lot of patience. This is a fullfilling task if you need to do it. I was lucky that my valves were not bent. If you're running with chain rattle and already had replaced you upper tensioner, it is most likely you sprockets are worn out. My old chains were in great shape, no cracks or "stretching". The lower sprockets and guides likewise were in good condition. 
I owe pics of the sprockets that were worn out. 
Will post some soon.
Thanks everyone for all yoiur great help!!!!!!


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jopet said:


> Timing chain replacement completed! Whew. What a project. All worth it though. Engine is quite as quite as it can me. Just need to replace my muffler to tone the noise down.


But does it run right now?  You say it's quiet...but is that because it's still not running? 



> Total work hour approx 36.


Ya, that seems like it's about the right amount of time for the DIY'er. I suppose a shop with the perfect set of tools and a few guys that know exactly what's going could have it done in a couple of hours.



> I was lucky that my valves were not bent.


I say damn lucky! I was betting on bent valves, but you got lucky, and luck is cheaper anyways.
Good deal overall...and saved a crapload of $$$ in process...


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks! Could not have completed the repair without you!


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Pictures by superpanda5 - Photobucket

As promised, the link above will take you to the pics of the worn out sprockets. 
The big idler sprocket was in good condition for the miles that the car had. The chains were unblievably also in good condition, so were the bottom guides and sprocket. 
But I replaced all of it since the kit came with all the parts. 

Car running great right now, checking for leaks if there are any. So far, none.

Thanks again for the help. What would we do without this forum?


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Jopet said:


> What would we do without this forum?


Give good business to bad mechanics and bad dealerships...


----------



## punchodex (Feb 21, 2011)

Hoping someone can give me any tips on reinstalling the timing cover. 

I missed 2 bolts while removing it, 1 vertical and 1 deep horizontal on top rear of cover. Didn't pry hard or anything b/c it was obvious I had missed a few. When I did pop it loose it took 2 pops with my prybar, 1 got it loose 1/2 inch and the other all the way. 

Last night I tried to install timing cover and it was giving me trouble. I am doing a dry run w/o sealant to make sure it will fit nicely when I have RTV on it. 
I can't seem to line it up properly. It seems to bind up. I don't want to hammer on it or anything, unless that's necessary. It's not getting caught on the head gasket (it was at first so I put some RTV on it so it would stay out of my way and stuck onto head). The oil pump spacer looks like it lines up with the one on the cover. FSM says to install the lower tensioner later on and it doesn't appear that guide is getting in the way. 
Maybe it's easier to pull that spacer off crankshaft and have it in the timing cover and then line up the crank woodruff key on the spacer slot?
Maybe those dowel pins are too crusty to let it slide on easily?

Any tips would be appreciated. I'll give it another whack tonight.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

the head gasket for that part should be removed. You will have a hard time putting back the cover if you dont. The gasket will be replaced by the rtv. make sure you put a generous amount specially at the corners. 
When you dry install to practice, you should prepare the oil pump to make sure the spacer goes through in the right angle. That's what you need to practice on. 
When I installed, the cover does not seat with just using your hands (at least with my engine) I used a soft hammer where it can be used, and hammered a screwdriver backwards (handle on the cover). And I "tapped" all around evenly to make sure the cover seats evenly. 
My point of reference to stop "tapping" are the top screw holes. when the two screw holes in the top cover are aligned, start putting on the screws. top first to make sure all is aligned there, do not tightened. Then all the other bolts, tightening all around evenly


----------



## punchodex (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks to all the help in this thread and others, especially Jopet.
Well I finally finished my 1995 200sx, 184,000 miles.
It took me a week, working on and off due to work and kids. Probably about 3.5-4 full work days, even longer on Thanksgiving to avoid the mother-in-law. A lot of time was spent cleaning off the timing cover, oil pan, thermostat housing, and top cam sprocket cover. The other big time waster was finding those blasted last few bolts on timing cover.

I tried to do it with the head gasket on that portion but it ended up getting chewed up when I tapped the cover on with a piece of wood and hammer. So I had to pull it off, clean it up, cut it off and start over and do it the way Jopet said to do it in the first place (I had to scrape all RTV off too, lesson learned). I assume you ran into no issues with chopping it off so I finally did the same and the cover slid right on with gasket removed. I see no oil leaks there or elsewhere so far. That was probably the most upsetting thing on the whole job. 

I had some hesitation that I thought was maybe my distributor going bad due to weak spark (I had high HC on my last few smog checks). Apparently the problem was due to my intake cam being off 2 teeth (or 2 links which I guess is the same). I had to rotate it counterclockwise to line up the timing marks. Exhaust cam was good. My intake sprocket was chewed up and missing 15 teeth, the idler sprocket (cam chain side) was missing all teeth with small nubs left behind. I don't recall it looking that bad when I changed the tensioner a year back. Hesitation was gone after this job so others can look here for fixing that known issue. Made a huge difference in idle quality and sound too. Well worth it. 
I got a quote for $1200 for timing chain but that shop obviously doesn't know the dealer wants over $500 for that intake sprocket, so more like $1700. I bought all Nissan parts from a two online OEM companies for about $800-900 total with a little over $400 being that intake sprocket. Well worth the savings and peace of mind knowing it wasn't half-assed like many shops do. 

I few things I might add to help others.
When removing cam sprockets, ask for help so nothing gets damaged. I had the wife hold an adjustable wrench on cams while I broke the bolts loose. She wasn't able to hold it so I put a 3 foot pipe on it to help her. Same with reinstallation. I used a torque wrench to factory specs on all but the crank pulley and some of the inaccessible bolts. 
As mentioned, remove ALL bolts obviously before prying on timing cover b/c I missed the one vertical one closest to firewall (see Jopet's previous posts) and another horizontal one buried deep. The cover may need a few strategic prys to crack loose (mine popped loose once about 1/2 inch off, then it still wouldn't slide off so I had to pop is loose further and it came off). Make sure you get the surface nice and clean of debris and oil residue (I used acetone?) so the new RTV sticks and seals.
When reinstalling, make sure you pull the idler shaft out of the old idler sprocket. Mine was still in the old sprocket until I realized the new one should have something in it besides the long bolt. Would hate to get it all buttoned up and miss that or have something get wrecked. 
Be sure when bolting up timing cover that you don't miss the bolt underneath the power steering bracket or you'll have to unbolt the bracket to put it in like I did. Probably not the best thing for the RTV but luckily I saw no leaks (hope the oil and water aren't mixing either). Also, I thought I had lost one of the larger diameter center bolts for the cover (even though I bagged and labeled all bolts to speed reinstallation). Then the FSM picture reminded me that one was from the bracket for motor mount. So don't waste hours looking for a phantom "missing" bolt like I did. At least I was smart enough to make sure they're all there before putting on RTV. I held the old chain up to new and noticed a decent amount of stretch, especially on the cam chain. Not too bad on long lower chain. 

Now that I know it's important to change that upper tensioner, I think this little motor can make it to 300k easy. 

When you clean out your oil pan you will be pleasantly suprised to find all those little broken sprocket teeth and a few hard chunks of plastic tensioner. I guess they're pretty innocuous in the bottom of oil pan but I pulled them out.

Good luck to all and feel free to ask me questions and I will do my best to respond with what I can recall.


----------



## Jopet (Aug 10, 2009)

Awesome! glad to be of help. I've gotten a lot of help from this forum and I am very glad to give back whenever I can.

It doesn't matter how long it takes just as long as it is done right. It is all worth it. I have a theory that the reason my distributor rotor keeps falling off is due to the vibration of the timing chains and sprockets before the repair. I've had no problems since then. 

Good additional input as well.


----------



## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

punchodex said:


> It took me a week, working on and off due to work and kids. Probably about 3.5-4 full work days, even longer on Thanksgiving to avoid the mother-in-law.


Possibly the best reason ever to do anything...ever!



> Apparently the problem was due to my intake cam being off 2 teeth (or 2 links which I guess is the same).


When I had the problem with my gears last year, I figured 2 teeth off was about the max a guy could go before you start mashing pistons into valves. You got real lucky there. Sometimes, better lucky than good.



> Now that I know it's important to change that upper tensioner, I think this little motor can make it to 300k easy.


300K...That's kinda what I'm counting on...especially after pulling the head off my 168K motor and finding cross hatch STILL on the cylinder walls and practically no 'ring ridge'.


----------

