# Experts Wanted... Springs (again)



## BlackoutSpecV (May 8, 2002)

I have never liked Eibach and its seems the genral consensus is that their springs are weak (for autoX). So if Ground Control (who makes some very nice coilovers) is using the eibach springs... which are logicaly diffrent... does that mean their coilovers are going to suck to? Also can you please clarify for me the stiffness, the springs are shorter so the fact that they are (say) 180 lbs per inch on a -1.7" drop means they have a stiffness that does not compare directly to the stock stiffness of 325 lbs per inch... so how do you compute the stiffness of a spring compared to stock. 

Okay... so i posed this question to a buddy who is a Nuclear Technition and car techie, this is what he had to say: 
well the rating is in how many pounds of pressure it takes to compress the spring one inch..... so less pounds is less stiffness and more is more 
if a spring is shorter it SHOULD take more pounds/inch to compress so your car doesnt bottom out, it SHOULD be stiffer.. but thats not always the case 

that makes sense to me, so the numbers seem to indicate that the springs are softer... HELP... SO lost... read to much crap, need help?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Your buddy is right, but he may have left out an important point about shorter spring being stiffer. Spring stiffness depends on the size of the coils. In other words the diameter of the wire used to make the spring. Here is what you buddy should have added: If you have 2 springs that use the same diameter wire, same material, and same overall spring diameter, the shorter one will be stiffer. The reason why he said "but thats not always the case " is because you can have 2 springs made with different dimeter wire. If the shorter one has a smaller diameter wire, it will be softer. Now to confuse you even more. You have 2 springs one is say 10" and the other is 7" long. If you wanted the 7" to have the same rate as the 10" you could decrease the wire diameter. If you wanted the 10" springs rate to be the same as the 7" you could increase wire diameter.
The only way to "compute" stiffnes is to find documentation or better yet put them in a spring rater.

Confused yet?


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## BlackoutSpecV (May 8, 2002)

damn, that was a bad ass answer. That is what i was trying to get at. 

So to the best of your knowldege would the coilover suspension (after market) for a GXE or SE or whatever be stiffer than the stock SE-R Spec V suspension? I ask because the coilover application I'm looking at works for all 2k+ sentras... this worries me becasue even thought they specificly say including SE-R's i'm still worried about stiffness. I do plan on using this car for autoX sometime soon as my old car is ready for retirement.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Who's coilover kit are you thinking about, most of the ones I have looked at you can get just about any rate you want. I say do some research(ask morepower2..lol) on what rates would suit your needs, then call up Ground Control and get their Advance Design setup(if they have it for B15's).


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## BlackoutSpecV (May 8, 2002)

yea, i'm looking at the groundcontrol setup, thats what we've had the most sucsess with on our Hondas. I'm just trying to get 100% technical here. I have just accepted that for the Integra's their (ground control) has the best setup. We did have one where we installed the H&R race (real) coilovers... damn those were bad ass. Thanks for your help, I'll be on the phone with Ground Control tomorrow morning.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

The Ground Control/Advance Design set-up are "real" coilovers. I am not talking about the normal GC setup, what I am talking about is dual external adjust racing dampers with threaded bodies.









Shown here are SE-R Advance Design coilovers with mounted caster/camber plates. This is a "full race" setup, like the H&R.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *The Ground Control/Advance Design set-up are "real" coilovers. I am not talking about the normal GC setup, what I am talking about is dual external adjust racing dampers with threaded bodies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is not their current offering. That strut uses a Koni 8611 racing insert. I'm not sure if they even offer that anymore. It also does not use a threaded body, but still uses the sleeves.

As for "real" coilovers, why does anyone think sleeves are not "real" coilovers? They are. Even Koni offers sleeves similar to the GCs in addition to their threaded body dampers.

As for rates, as has been mentioned, if you don't have a really good idea what you want, go with GC's recommendation. You can get the Eibach ERS springs in rates above 1,000 in/lbs.

We're running our ITS SE-R at 450/400 with AGX at the moment, but when we get our Koni set-up finished we'll probably run something like 600/550 or 600/600. We'll need to get the welded cage in to be able to use those high rear rates effectively though.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

My bad. I should have stated that when I posted the pic, also I guess they should take that off their "Whats new" page. Anyway, I agree with Geo about what "real" coilovers are.

BTW, does anyone have some good pics of the current AD's?


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## BlackoutSpecV (May 8, 2002)

According to them the only thing they have for the SE-R and Spec V is the coilover kit. Not the full race setup.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Here is a couple of ideas.
Motivational has them for your car listed at $1600
Coil-over sets include "shortened" strut bodies with modified, rebound adjustable Koni cartridges, Koni poly-foam bump stops, Eibach ERS springs (in any rate), threaded collars, upper spring seats with Torrington bearings. Struts are fully rebuildable and revalveable. Core charge of $40 per strut applies if we don't use your aftermarket struts or if you have OEM Nissan strut housings. Rear upper mounts are included for the B-14 ('95-'99) and B-15 ('00-'02)! External adjustable fronts available at an additional $100 a pair.







(shhh. its a B14 kit in the pic)

Another idea. 
I dont know if they have regular shortened struts for the B15, but if they do you could use the GC kit on them.


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## BlackoutSpecV (May 8, 2002)

$1600 holly $hit man. I'm a student, i can hardly afford the fu<kin $500 or so they want for the basic kit. Real coilovers would be nice, but i'm not in a possition to get those now. I have worked on sevral cars with the basic GC coilover kit and had good luck. We did once put a real coilover setup in an Integra... that was a while back.

Thanks for all the help, School just started today so i wont be able to call H&R or CG till friday.


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## BlackoutSpecV (May 8, 2002)

Just an update for anyone intrested. the GC kit's rates are 375 front and 300 rear, which is close to the stock 375f/325r rates. You can order custom rates from GC directly, i am thinking 375/375 or 375/350...

Thanks for all the comments.


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## SpIcEz (Jun 26, 2002)

Actually, the stock rates are 325F/375R on the Spec V. Not the other way around.

That would make the GC rates inadequate. I tried understanding why exactly B15's have higher rear rates than normal FF cars, and Mike Kojima's only response was " The B15 needs higher or equal rear rates for it to rotate correctly !"

So if he says so, and Nissan says so, I guess, we shouldnt be going the other way around.

All aftermarket Springs for the B15 comme with a higher front rate then rear one.

The only exceptions being :

-The B+G coilovers (which have had bad results)
-The Motivational Coilovers stock rates (you can custom order) at 350/350, which is still ok, per Mike K. 's information.
-And the up and comming TEIN's. I emailed them about this, and their response was some BS about their dampers being different and compensating etc....

So we can add to this list the Ground Control's. Having the wrong rate setup. But thats ok, because you can custom order rates from them.

Id suggest. 300/300, 350/350 (depending on how stiff you want) and to keep it as close to stock as possible so you wont blow your dampers.

Unfortunaly, NO aftermarket dampers are currently available or even planned for the B15.

hmm, long post eh ?  I guess thats it for now.
Feel free to ask questions.

Chris


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

i know this has been answered before but what kind of spring rate is the best for daily driving and partial racing. i heard 300/200 but im not sure n-e-one think they can answer this?


i want my ride not 2 stiff and not 2 soft ... i want it like in between. so if someone can help be greatly appreciated.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

SpIcEz, there are aftemarket dampers available. I consider the Tein kit and the Motivational kit aftermarket. That is unless you are talking about standard dampers. The Motivational ones for B14s can handle upwards of a 400lbs. spring. I bet the B15 ones are the same. As it stands right now,if I had a B15 I would be seriously looking at Motivational's offerings. 

LIUSPEED, Most people are happy with those rates. Thats where I would start for the type of driving you have listed. If you do not like them you can always change just your springs. GC told me that springs are about $55 each. Remember though, you may want stiff springs to keep you from bottoming out and to keep you out of your cars bumpsteer range.


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## SpIcEz (Jun 26, 2002)

PatScottAKA99XE
What I mean is there are no dampers. Stand alone, normal dampers.

So if you order GC coilovers, your stuck with the stock dampers, or Spec V ones if you dont own a Spec V.

For Motivational, it does look like hte best offering, IMO. If I had the money, they would already be on the car, thats for sure


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