# Modding to veggie oil, i want to know how? link to article inside



## nmz787 (Aug 31, 2005)

how the heck can i do this to my car (GA16DE, B13), or to a future car that this mod would work on, if i can figure this out? 

http://www.nols.edu/bus/bus_veggie.shtml

anyone have any more info about this sort of thing?


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## AznBoiBryant (Dec 29, 2004)

hmm I wonder what would product better hp, veggie oil or regular oil?


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## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

the studies have been actually been done. 

biodiesal and petraldiesa have similar power capabilities. (vegatble oil is NOT reccomended for use as a fuel).

petrol is cheaper but bio lubricates parts better (biodiesal has more natural lubricity to it) as well as burns cleaner and helps companies comply to air specifications.

more info at http://www.biodiesel.org/


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## xbrandonx (Mar 27, 2004)

also its for DESIL, not gas powered engines.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

you need ethanol not a diesel alternative.

Seth


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

lol I was gonna say....did you read the article fully? I mean....commonly known that it's a _DIESEL_ alternative....not gas.


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

1) My company is working on a biodiesel process.
2) You DON'T want ethanol.
3) It's time people realized we don't have enough arable land to provide even 25% of the US energy requirement. That's if 100% of our arable land was used for renewable energy. We would STILL import oil and become 100% dependent upon food imports.


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## psuLemon (Apr 23, 2003)

i think its funny becuase most of those kits go for like 2k, which is a lot of diesel fuel. so add on that 2k plus your 89 cents you pay for veg oil and come up wiht some calculations.


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## ICP Sux0rZ! (Jan 10, 2005)

nmz787 said:


> how the heck can i do this to my car (GA16DE, B13), or to a future car that this mod would work on, if i can figure this out?
> 
> http://www.nols.edu/bus/bus_veggie.shtml
> 
> anyone have any more info about this sort of thing?


yes please do this 

run vegi oil in your gas tank plz it will help us all out :thumbup:


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## zyewdall (Sep 7, 2005)

If you've got a diesel nissan, biodiesel can be used without any engine modification (well, keep checking the old fuel hoses because they'll need replacing after a while, and the first few tanks will clean out your whole system and clog the fuel filter with dissolved gunk from all the dirty dino-diesel you've been using). I've done this in VW, Mercedes, and Mitsubishi diesels. It's about $3 - $3.40 per gallon to buy it, or you can make it yourself. Veggie oil works great too -- you just have to get it to at least 180F before it enters the injection pump -- not a problem onces the engine is running and up to temperature. Have to install a duel fuel system to start it on, with a heated tank for the veggie oil. The newer super high pressure diesel injection systems might have a little more problem with veggie oil or biodiesel, but the old 80's ones are fine if you know what you are doing.

Whether it's cost effective -- probably not, unless your running a school bus across the country getting 10mpg (Then that $1,000 for the conversion pays back pretty fast). But then again, nothing in life worth doing is cost effective. Did you ever run the numbers on having kids? It's pretty bad. The reason for me to run biodiesel isn't economics, or even environmental per se. It's because gasoline is contaminated with so much blood.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

bahearn said:


> 3) It's time people realized we don't have enough arable land to provide even 25% of the US energy requirement. That's if 100% of our arable land was used for renewable energy. We would STILL import oil and become 100% dependent upon food imports.


Of course we don't. But south american and africa do. WHy not infuse alot of money to the poorest nations in the world?

But you're right ethanol isn't good enough. We should be able to keep IC engines but not use a petroleum based fuel. If only we could convert garbage or something to a liquid fuel...

Seht


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## pimpride (Mar 28, 2005)

Someone made a car powered by grease from McDonalds french fries...


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## cactusfarmer (Nov 8, 2003)

bahearn said:


> 1) My company is working on a biodiesel process.
> 2) You DON'T want ethanol.
> 3) It's time people realized we don't have enough arable land to provide even 25% of the US energy requirement. That's if 100% of our arable land was used for renewable energy. We would STILL import oil and become 100% dependent upon food imports.


Interesting, I worked for a couple of years as a media and marketing consultant for several national agriculture groups and ethonal producers, it's a myth we can't produce enough ethonal. You can make ethonal out of many things including veggie scraps. The only problem we ran into with producing and selling a ethonal as an automotive fuesl was the oil companies. They spent millions to battle us. One of the researchers at the Texas Tech fuel research center showed us the engines and cars they had develped to run on ethonal, it was amazing. I'm not talking goofy little, funny looking cars. I'm talking V8 SUV's. And yes, corn oil will run your desiel engine. I read an article about a band that ran their big tour bus all across the U.S. from used corn oil they picked up at Chinese restrts. With gas prices rising and an increase world-wide for the demand on oil, I think you are going to start seeing some real progress towards alternative fuels. .


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

Oooo! Both polarities here. My ChemE PhD office mates keep telling me North America cannot BEGIN to supply bio fuels and still produce food. There just isn't enough land. Somehow, I don't think we make enough food scraps to make a dent in the demand.

How much agriculture is needed to produce 100 million barrels of ethanol per year? That'll keep us all driving...

ArcherDaniel-Midlands has brow-beaten Congress into thinking ethanol is our saving grace. No. Way. Period. Patriotic? Yes. Viable? No. General concensus in the refining arena says ethanol is a net-energy loser. I heard one person say otherwise but I saw no sources quoted.


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## zyewdall (Sep 7, 2005)

I haven't looked at the numbers if we could really grow our fuel supply or not. But consider this. Right now the US government is paying farmers to NOT grow anything on arable land, in order to keep grain prices up by reducing supply. At the very least, shouldn't we start paying them to grow canola oil that we can use for fuel?

From what I have seen, biodiesel is about 3 times the energy is uses to produce it, while ethanol hovers around 1.2 times, or possibly 0.8 times, depending on who's study you use - -take alot of energy to distill it apparently.


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## zyewdall (Sep 7, 2005)

Oh, another example of how much we waste here in the US (the food scraps comment made me think of this).

In the last week a friend of mine just collected two full sized vans full of non-perishable food, clothes, supplies, etc, from dumpsters, to send to New Orleans relief efforts. It's just because there are so many spoiled rich kids going to school in Boulder that throw away brand new stuff.... normally he re-sells the stuff he collects, makes as good a living as I do as an engineer.....


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

~2 BILLION 42-gallon BARRELS of transportation non-oil fuel per year in the U.S.

Assuming 50 barrels of EtOH per acre of corn, we'd need 4 MILLION acres of arable land just for corn to move. This doesn't count the ethanol needed to power agriculture, industry, homes, commerce, whatever.

Curious as to their agenda

"Of the nearly 470 million acres of arable land that are now in cultivation in the U.S., more than 1 million acres are lost from cultivation each year due to urbanization, multiplying transportation networks, and industrial expansion. In addition, about 2 million acres of prime cropland are lost annually by erosion, salinization, and water logging."

From Earth Policy Org

"Although ethanol’s popularity is growing, today’s inefficient production methods and conversion technologies mean that this fuel will only produce modest environmental and economic benefits and could impinge on international food security. The largest obstacle to biofuel production is land availability. Expanding cropland for energy production will likely worsen the already intense competition for land between agriculture, forests, and urban sprawl. With temperatures rising and water tables falling worldwide, global food supply and demand are precariously balanced. World grain reserves are near all-time lows, and there is little idle cropland to be brought back into cultivation. Shifting food crops to fuel production could further tighten food supplies and raise prices, pitting affluent automobile owners against low-income food consumers."

Interesting information regarding ethanol energy efficiency based upon cellulose source.

I'll soon have documtention in hand showing how ethanol is a net loss seed to wheel.


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## cactusfarmer (Nov 8, 2003)

bahearn said:


> Oooo! Both polarities here. My ChemE PhD office mates keep telling me North America cannot BEGIN to supply bio fuels and still produce food. There just isn't enough land. Somehow, I don't think we make enough food scraps to make a dent in the demand.
> 
> How much agriculture is needed to produce 100 million barrels of ethanol per year? That'll keep us all driving...
> 
> ArcherDaniel-Midlands has brow-beaten Congress into thinking ethanol is our saving grace. No. Way. Period. Patriotic? Yes. Viable? No. General concensus in the refining arena says ethanol is a net-energy loser. I heard one person say otherwise but I saw no sources quoted.


You are right about both polarities here, that's for sure. And, I can match you PhD for PhD that says it can be done. Chemistry, Engineering, Agricultural, Finance, you name them we had them too. As for the argument of not having enough land to produce the raw materials, that's mostly based on using corn as the sole source for producing ethanol. And yes, that would be a problem. Not just for space required to grow it, but also because corn is a big water user which makes it very expensive too grow. And all that water use is not very politically correct or conservation friendly. That's why crops like grain sorghum are showing promise as a source. They are basically a hybrid weed, which can damn near grow in the desert. 

But a more interesting dilemma was described to me by one of the engineers at Texas Tech who was involved in the engine and ethanol research. It was what he called the chicken and the egg problem. It basically ask, which do you do first, build cars with engines that run on ethanol, or a nation-wide distribution of service station that sell ethanol. Neither the car manufacturers nor the service station folks want to be the first to do it. And with good reason, it requires a massive amount of financial investment on their part. They both say if the other guy does it first, then they'll do their part. So it's going no where. One answer of course, is for the government to pony up the cash and jump start things. But throw that out there and see what kind of hornets nests your stir up. Then run like hell from all the lobbyist coming at you from every side

I will say this, after my two years of working on this project, I found it fascinating. Some of the things I saw at Tech, on the farms and in the ethanol plants left me with no doubt, ethanol will work and it's a no brainer. The politics and financial side on the other hand, are a whole different story. For example, a group of grain sorghum growers in Texas convinced Diamond Shamrock Oil, who was based in Amarillo, Texas at the time, to build an ethanol plant in the Panhandle of Texas. There was fierce opposition to it by the rest of the oil industry who wanted to stop it. So they did, it was real simple, they just bought out Diamond Shamrock and killed the plant. Now. from what I understand, the sorghum growers have put together a group of investors to build the plant anyway. So we'll see. But, I'm not really sure since I'm not involved in these projects anymore. 

Someday, probably sooner than later, we'll have no choice, but to make something like ethanol work, or we'll all be walking again. And, based on what I saw, I think what's going to make it happen, is for everybody, from all sides, big oil, big agriculture, and the big automakers all figure out how to get their cut out of it the deal, then it will happen. But until then, we can dream about driving our car around on corn oil can't we. 

Wow, look at all that crap I wrote. Now I think I need a cup of coffee -- maybe with just a little shot of ehtanol in it.


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## cactusfarmer (Nov 8, 2003)

[/QUOTE]I'll soon have documtention in hand showing how ethanol is a net loss seed to wheel.[/QUOTE]

Believe me, there's plenty of researchers, trade groups, companies and lobbyist out their that can match you page for page with documentation to show ethanol will work. For example, your reports that show grain being used for ethanol production takes a way from our food sources, leave out a few things. Take grain sorghum, they don't mention that once grain sorghum is used to produce ethanol, the remaining by-product is then dried and used to feed cattle in dairies that produce our milk. So instead of just getting one use out of the grain as a live stock food, you get two, livestock food and fuel. On top of that, grain sorghum is primarly grown for livestock food anyway, so you're not taking away land used for producing food. And because of its hardiness, it can grown on some pretty crappy land not usable for other crops. They've just learned how to squeeze another use out of it before it's fed to the cows. Moo!


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## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

screw ethonal, i saw a program about Ford's hydrogen powered focus. not fuel cell, hydrogen used in a gasoline engine. a really cool concept in my opinion.


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## cactusfarmer (Nov 8, 2003)

Tavel said:


> screw ethonal, i saw a program about Ford's hydrogen powered focus. not fuel cell, hydrogen used in a gasoline engine. a really cool concept in my opinion.


Hey, anything's gotta a be better than they way we're doing it now. But I would keep an eye on the Japanese care makers, I'm betting they get there first.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

except for the whole hindenburg thing and impossible distribution and huge expense in manufacture etc.

Seth


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

> there's plenty of researchers, trade groups, companies and lobbyist out their that can match you page for page with documentation to show ethanol will work


To hell with trade groups, companies and lobbyists. They are all out to make a buck by selling ethanol. They care not one whit if there's method to the madness as long as it gets them a paycheck. Only research results are worth looking into. Those scientists may be paid by the others to delve into the question but at least they will nominally be dispassionate about the results. No spin zone, eh?

I work with people who have been in the PetroChem biz their entire careers. They know a thing or two about the economics. I would welcome any valid evidence to the refute their claims.

For example, Earth Policy looks to have some intriguing data that is not normally mentioned in the ethanol discussion. I can grow sugar beets in my back yard. Sort of like owning mineral rights!

As for hydrogen, it's worse than ethanol by a wide margin in the overall scheme of things. It has a combustion enthalpy of only 283 kJ/mol version gasoline's typical 4600 kJ/mol. It will require pressure vessels rated to over 10,000 psig in your trunk. Gonna be just as heavy as those batteries in electric cars. Your range per tankful will be abyssmal. It's primary saving grace is exhaust emissions. A VERY expensive fix, for sure.


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## zyewdall (Sep 7, 2005)

The hindenburg was mostly because the shell of the dirigible was inadvertently made of explosives, not the hydrogen inside. And from the studies I have seen, hydrogen is actually safer than gasoline in a car crash (it rises up an away from the crash, instead of pooling underneath for the vapors to ignite).

But I agree that hydrogen isn't the way out (now at least). Hydrogen is not an energy source. It's an energy carrier (sort of like how your bank account can store money, but it's lousy at generating money, and with the fees and such, you're probably actually losing money). All the plans I've seen to get hydrogen get it from fossil fuels, mostly natural gas, which is supply constrained enough already. It might improve local emissions some, but doesn't do a whole lot for the grand scheme of energy supply.... Unless we get it from hydrogen producing algae, or renewable energy electrolyzed water, but those are either unproven as of yet, or really expensive compared to gasoline....


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

I was just messing with the hindenburg thing. Most people identify hydrogen with it.

Still, I don't want to be driving around a flammable compressed gas car any time soon. 
The accidents would be cool though.
Screeeeeeeeeee......blam....nuclear blast.

Seth


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## cactusfarmer (Nov 8, 2003)

bahearn said:


> To hell with trade groups, companies and lobbyists. They are all out to make a buck by selling ethanol. They care not one whit if there's method to the madness as long as it gets them a paycheck. Only research results are worth looking into. Those scientists may be paid by the others to delve into the question but at least they will nominally be dispassionate about the results. No spin zone, eh?


That's the great thing about the oil biz, they don't have any trade groups, compaines and lobbyiest out there protecting their interest and their paychecks. They don't have the their own scientists that are paid to come up with the the results they want. Don't be so niave, I've met them face to face, and their damn good at what they do. 




bahearn said:


> I work with people who have been in the PetroChem biz their entire careers. They know a thing or two about the economics. I would welcome any valid evidence to the refute their claims.


I grew up down there in Houston. My dad, my brothers, uncles, and other family members worked on designing and building that ugly, stinky mess of refineries on the gulf coast. During my lifetime I've watched the Gulf coast converted into a toxic waste dump. Hell, you can't even swim in most places I did when I was a kid. Trust me I know as much about the PetroChem biz as your buddies. And, I still have many famlly members including brothers who are working for major oil companies right now. And, I say to them the same thing I say on here, there is a better way, and it will happen. And they give me the same stock answers you do that the oil companies churn out by the reams. 

I checked it out for myself. I spent two years, traveling around and studying first hand, alternative fuels. I spoke with many of our nations top experts both in and outside the oil industry. I came away convinced more than ever it will work, and it's going to happen. There are two things holding it back, the billions of dollars that the oil industry is spending to stop it, and the current U.S. administration, which is loaded down with oil biz folks who cater to the oil industry lobby. But I think after the recent Hurricane and the rising cost of gasoline, the winds of change are shifting dramatically. It's just part of progress. Change can be painful, but it can't be stopped forever. It's going to happen, whether your or I like it on not. The only question is, are we going to be the leaders in this new world, or we gong to lose out by not taking the lead. The oil companies with their massive resources, cash, experince and distribution sytems could and should be the leader in this enterprise. But they continue to hang on to the old ways and refuse to spend the money to change. But remember, the train and steel industries who once ruled this great land where just as powerful, but look what happned to them when they refused to change. So it's not if, it's when.


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## zyewdall (Sep 7, 2005)

cactusfarmer said:


> The only question is, are we going to be the leaders in this new world, or we going to lose out by not taking the lead.


I don't know about oil, cars, etc. But in the solar energy business (where I work), the US has managed to go from 85% world market share, to about 15%, in the last 10 years. We did a good portion of the cutting edge research here, but Japan (and soon china) leads the world production of photovoltaics. This is an industry that is growing at 30% a year, and we're losing.... Guess who's installing the most photovolatics. #1-Germany, #2-Japan, distant #3, California. Is there sun in Germany or Japan? Well, about as much as Seattle or Boston....


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

cactusfarmer said:


> There are two things holding it back, the billions of dollars that the oil industry is spending to stop it, and the current U.S. administration, which is loaded down with oil biz folks who cater to the oil industry lobby.


Bingo.

Seth


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

> That's the great thing about the oil biz, they don't have any trade groups, compaines and lobbyiest out there protecting their interest and their paychecks.


Don't go putting' words in my mouth. I never said Big Oil DOESN'T have spin doctors, too. I work at a research company surrounded by PhD ChemEs. I have no contact with any lobbyists or sales group. I say kill ALL lobbyists. Kill 'em dead. I'm not one, I'm a spreadsheet jockey.

Like you, I've lived in the Houston environs for a long (since 1968). My father started two companies dealing with chemicals and refining. I've worked at both (still at the second one, CD-Tech, even though he sold it). Both my brothers have worked along side me and my sister did some ancillary work for the second place. I aint naive.



> And they give me the same stock answers you do that the oil companies churn out by the reams.


Could it be because it's true?



> I checked it out for myself. I spent two years, traveling around and studying first hand, alternative fuels.


Who are you and who do/did you work for? I listed my employer. No negative connotations, here, I'm trying to judge YOUR agenda.



> there is a better way, and it will happen.


Absolutely. That "better way" is fusion. I'm not grasping at straws to keep Big Oil in business, I just haven't seen a better way, yet. Fusion should be it if we can get it to work.


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## cactusfarmer (Nov 8, 2003)

bahearn said:


> Don't go putting' words in my mouth. I never said Big Oil DOESN'T have spin doctors, too. I work at a research company surrounded by PhD ChemEs. I have no contact with any lobbyists or sales group. I say kill ALL lobbyists. Kill 'em dead. I'm not one, I'm a spreadsheet jockey.


I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was just pointing out oil companies also have trade groups, companies and lobbyists as well. You said, "They are all out to make a buck by selling ethanol." To me, your statement implies that only the ethanol folks use trade groups, lobbyists, etc. to promote their agenda and make a buck. So, I'm not putting words in your mouth, just trying to interpret them as I understand them and respond to them. 



bahearn said:


> My original quote: And they give me the same stock answers you do that the oil companies churn out by the reams. Your resonse: Could it be because it's true?


It could be, but it could also be because they spend millions and millions to make it seem so. And that applies to both sides. 



bahearn said:


> Who are you and who do/did you work for? I listed my employer. No negative connotations, here, I'm trying to judge YOUR agenda.


No agenda, just love a great debate, especially with somebody that seems as knowlegable about the subject as you do. And this is a debate this country needs to be having right now. Currently I work for myself as a professional photographer (Magazines, etc.) I've worked for many years as a reporter, editor and photojournalist. Then I moved to doing work in marketing and public relations as a director and vice president or marketing and public relations. During that time I did consulting work for some agriculture companies and trade organizations, one of them being the Texas Grain Sorghum Association. They were heavily involved in pushing ethanol, which I knew nothing about. But since they hired me to help them develop their media message, marketing strategy and legislature program, I had to do extensive research and study on ethanol. I was totally blown away by what I saw and learned. Then I became friends with a mechanic that did much of the actual engine work for Texas Tech, not a PhD type, but the smartest engine person I ever met. He didn't believe ethonal would work either until he worked on the Tech projects. Anyway, I finished working with these folks several years ago, and no longer have any stake in it except as a consumer like you. I really beleive ethanol will work, especially if we use sorghum and food byproducts, i.e. potato scraps from food processing plants. I see lots of problems using corn. Otherwise I just like Nissans and hanging out on this forum. Lot's of great info here. 



bahearn said:


> Absolutely. That "better way" is fusion. I'm not grasping at straws to keep Big Oil in business, I just haven't seen a better way, yet. Fusion should be it if we can get it to work.


That may be, but I think fusion is long time from now, ethonal can come quickly. A good start would be just cutting gas with ethanol by 10 percent. That would be a 10 percent gas savings right there. So I think there is hope.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

bahearn said:


> Fusion should be it if we can get it to work.


60 million degrees for hot fusion?

Seth


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

For you, Sethwas, 60 million degrees. For everyone else, only 20 million.


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## ryan2205 (Mar 27, 2010)

hello i have a nissan terrano on a 54 reg can i run this vehicle on biodiesel,has anybody had any problems whilst doing this.

thanks Rob.


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