# No power after timing chain replacement (another one of these threads)



## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

Ok so i have a 1994 D21 4x4 with a KA24E. The truck has 174k miles on it. Just to be clear, this truck has always had an issue when it comes to power but recently it got worse.

The timing chain was rattling so I just had it replaced. At first, the oil pump was put in a tooth off and the timing could therefore not be set properly. That was corrected and now we set the timing back to 10 deg BTDC like the little sticker under the hood states. At that timing, I have NO power at low RPMs. We had to advance the timing to about 17 degrees BTDC to get the thing to drive normally. Looking at the position on the distributor, it looks like it's pretty close to where it was set when I bought the truck so I guess the last owner had it set way in advance as well. The problem is, I feel like it's still missing a lot of power.

I should also add that the truck runs smoothly and idles just fine. It's just missing power.

What controls the advance on these distributors?

I've put in a new fuel filter, cleaned the MAF, there are no codes.

What do you think it could be?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

try removing the dizzy hold down bolts ..then rotate the dizzy past it's normal range to see if u get the power back..rotATE THE DIZZY WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING ..

sounds like you may be a tooth off on the timing chain ...


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

Chain marks were lined up with the marks on the new sprockets. How would I be able to set the timing properly if the chain was off a tooth?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

we are only guessing at this point..

rotate the dizzy to see if it helps...


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## SPEEDO (Jun 9, 2003)

I was thinking old school.. like maybe the cam gear was set in a different position (my 510 had 3 settings on the gear) but I bet Zane is correct.. your a tooth off


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

So i set the distributor to be fully clockwise which should be full advance. At that setting I have much more power.

I talked to the mechanics that did the timing chain and they said they're certain that the chain marks were matched up with the new cam and crank sprockets and that they lined the oil shaft punch mark as well. This is a reputable shop that my family's been using for ages so i trust that they're being honest but people make mistakes.

What else can this be? How can I help them narrow this down so they can fix it?


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

cjserio said:


> So i set the distributor to be fully clockwise which should be full advance. At that setting I have much more power.
> 
> I talked to the mechanics that did the timing chain and they said they're certain that the chain marks were matched up with the new cam and crank sprockets and that they lined the oil shaft punch mark as well. This is a reputable shop that my family's been using for ages so i trust that they're being honest but people make mistakes.
> 
> What else can this be? How can I help them narrow this down so they can fix it?


If they are as reputable as you say, they should just be able to hook up a timing light and see their mistake with the engine idling. Or even checking it with the engine off, if they actually know what they're doing. And even if the timing is dead on, checking if the cam is installed 'one tooth off' isn't that hard either without tearing the engine apart.
And just because they said they are certain the mark were lined up, still doesn't mean they actually are.


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

Well the timing is/was definitly spot on. He showed me how the truck had no power at 10 BTDC and that he had to advance it to get the thing to drive but the point is that the timing was able to be set properly on the distributor.

How can they be sure the chain isn't a tooth off without taking everything apart?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

it is a simple test..

did u remove the tie down bolts for the dizzy??

did you rotate the dizzy past its normal range ??


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

zanegrey said:


> it is a simple test..
> 
> did u remove the tie down bolts for the dizzy??
> 
> did you rotate the dizzy past its normal range ??


No I didn't. What will that tell me? How far do i go with it?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

rotate it slowly..

it will tell u if you are a tooth off of either the chain or oil pump..

the sound of the engine is your feed back..


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

zanegrey said:


> rotate it slowly..
> 
> it will tell u if you are a tooth off of either the chain or oil pump..
> 
> the sound of the engine is your feed back..


Hmm but the engine idles and runs smoothly...it just has no power unless i advance the crap out of it. So what am I listening for as i rotate the dizzy?

Do i do that with the TPS connected or disconnected?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY ...!

COUNT THEM OUT...!


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

zanegrey said:


> DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY ...!
> 
> COUNT THEM OUT...!


Sir yes sir?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

now just do what i ask you to do..

u must know in what direction the dizzy advances...

remove the bolts and turn the dizzy in the advance direction while the engine is running.

do it slowly and gingerly..

you will probably just need to go just under the bolt hole or more..

use some tape or a small vice grip to hold it in place and go for a drive..

has you power range changed ..?


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

Ok i removed both bolts and rotated it as far as it will go which essentially exposes half of the bolt hole on the outside. I took it for a test drive and it has good power at the lower RPMs finally but it's not revving very strongly past 3,000rpms and it's pinging pretty bad.

It seems to run fairly well with the bolts back in and the dizzy set as much advanced as the adjustments allow for.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

if there is pinging you went too far..

seems to me you are still off on the oil pump timing...


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

Ok so two questions then:

1) If the oil pumping timing is off why is it still possible for it to appear that the dizzy is timed right? The reason i ask is that at first, the mechanic said he wasn't able to advance the engine enough to get to 10 deg BTDC so he checked the oil pump and the punch marks weren't lined up. Once he fixed that he said he was able to get to 10 deg just fine...The problem is that at 10 deg, the engine has no power.

2) On the driving spindle there's a punch mark that needs to be lined up with the oil hole on the oil pump. Once that's done properly, the engine still needs to be a TDC before you put everything back together correct? I'm guessing he set the marks properly but just didn't have the engine at TDC when he puts the oil pump back in the 2nd time.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

asked and answered...


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

With all due respect, you didn't actually answer anything in those two questions. I asked HOW it's possible for the timing to be set properly even though the engine is powerless. I asked if the oil pump needs to be at TDC when the marks are lined up and pump reinstalled.

While I appreciate your help, it seems to be a pattern that you offer a tiny nugget of advice but not enough for the person to actually know what you're trying to help them accomplish and then when they try to pull more information out of you, you snap back with a sarcastic reply.

You told me to rotate the dizzy beyond the normal range. You didn't tell me what to listen for or how I'm supposed to know when to stop. When I asked I got a sarcastic reply. Then I come back with the results and you say the pump is still off a tooth. When I ask how that's possible if i can time the engine right, i get back another sarcastic reply.

You do realize that most of the people on this forum are amateurs not mechanics right? If you don't offer enough information for them to understand what you're trying to help them accomplish, don't be surprised when they ask questions. If we had enough knowledge and experience to understand your brief replies, we wouldn't be on forums looking for help, we'd have just fixed the problem ourselves.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

i understand ur having trouble with ur truck ..

you are not reading my post and you are not reading your own post..

my post i told you to rotate the dizzy and that it probably would be just under the bolt holes or a little more..

also in the other post you ask a question in one parse and then answer it in another..


you do realize u paid a shop to put u in this situation and didn't take it back and demand they fix it right ..do u know what that tells me ?


i have to take it for granted that you know what the hell you think u r talking about..

u rotated the dizzy and it did get better..

that say's you are a tooth off of either the oil pump or t-chain...


now u ask again a stupid question which can not be answered...


and now u want chastise me...


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

I'm not chastising you, I'm asking for you to be more patient with people. We're asking questions that may be stupid to you because your answers are sometimes too vague and then you get sarcastic when we don't know what you're getting at.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

my answers are succint and to the piont..

if they can not be answered they are stupid..

again and again i must take it for granted that u know what the hell u are talking about..


but u do not and are again chastising me..


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## SPEEDO (Jun 9, 2003)

ok... calm down
cjserio.... understand that you can line everything up, but when you go the put evrything back together it might slide a tooth... which sounds like what happened. Zane was showing you the way to tell.. and by performing the test and the results of that test, you have your answer... your a tooth off. Sometimes it may take multipal tries to get it right... 
I think I would be returning to the shop to have it corrected.


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## TheRepairMan (Jun 30, 2009)

SPEEDO said:


> ok... calm down
> cjserio.... understand that you can line everything up, but when you go the put evrything back together it might slide a tooth... which sounds like what happened. Zane was showing you the way to tell.. and by performing the test and the results of that test, you have your answer... your a tooth off. *Sometimes it may take multipal tries to get it right*...
> I think I would be returning to the shop to have it corrected.


This is exactly spot on. Been there, done that!

-R

Zane, my seats haven't broken yet! (I think I'll make that my signature) LOL!


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