# Is there a difference b/w Pennzoil & Valvoline?



## findmypath (Jul 14, 2005)

Hey everyone,

My local dealer is running a promo where you pay $70 and you get 6 oil changes in that price. So I'm prepaying for the oil changes. I found out that they use Valvoline and they don't offer any other oils. I've been using Pennzoil every since I got my Pathy which is about a year and 13000 or so miles. 

My question- are there any difference in between the oils? Should I be ok with the switch?

Thanks. 

2003 LE with 27000 miles


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## DvBennett (Aug 19, 2005)

I wouldn't worry too much about it, as long as they're using the same type of oil.


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

In my personal experience, Valvoline seems to be at least as good as any other petroleum based oil. I used it in my '86 720 which had nearly 220K. The top end remained clean as new and never had the valves adjusted (Z24 has solid lifters) and there were no signs of bottom end wear.


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## Redwood (Jul 10, 2005)

I've been a car nut for 30 years and have seen a lot of engines torn down. I would definately prefer Valvoline to Pennzoil. Maybe its all different now, but I remember Pennzoil used to produce a lot of sludge.  Redwood


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## architectdave (Aug 29, 2005)

Redwood said:


> I've been a car nut for 30 years and have seen a lot of engines torn down. I would definately prefer Valvoline to Pennzoil. Maybe its all different now, but I remember Pennzoil used to produce a lot of sludge.  Redwood



My opinion is to switch to synthetic at 226k miles my truck runs beautifully and Ive used it since the engine broke in..... :thumbup:


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## Max96 (Aug 25, 2005)

Any "name brand" oil you buy off the shelves these days that meets current API standards is just fine. Name brand meaning Pennzoil, Valvoline, Mobil, Exxon, etc....


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

Last I knew, Pennzoil was a Group II+ base mineral oil ... and has been for several years. Look on their bottles for the "Pure Base" label which means their Group II+ level of refining.

This is the highest level of refining of a mineral oil. Any higher than that (Group III) and it is deemed a "synthetic."

Valvoline uses the more common and less refined Group II ... and even then they only switched to that in 2001 or so from Group I which the industry is getting away from for use in new cars.

Also, Pennzoil uses a much more robust additive package ... more molybdenum ... and boron as well. These are powerful anti-wear compounds used in conjunction with ZDDP (zinc phosphate).

Valvoline All-Climate has always used a skimpier additive package than most oils. This remains true today but they have beefed it up some to meet the new SM standards.

But people still like Valvoline (in general) for two reasons:

1) They advertise more (especially in racing).

2) The old, old rumor/myth that Pennzoil leaves a waxy build-up in engines.

While there is no "bad" oil I'll take the Pennzoil any day. Either Pennzoil or Chevron Supreme which is formulated similarly. Havoline is another top choice as they use the same additive package as Chevron ... but I believe they still use the slightly less impressive Group II base oil.


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## m_aguilar1 (Sep 23, 2005)

I've been working in automotive retail for the past 7+ years, an I have seen some very nasty motors. Some that were replaced for using Pennzoil. From what I've been told its called "PennSludge"- I've seen as bad as a motor coming to us a core, the whole motor was baked with this charcoal-like sludge. On my break, i sat there, literally chipping away at it. IMO I would go with Castrol or Valvoline for reg. oil. Synthetic oil is alot better, runs cooler, and if you needed to- you can go alittle longer without having to change your oil. But I don't recommend going over 4,000 miles. Just my 2Cents.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_" ... it's called "PennSludge" - I've seen as bad as a motor coming to us a core, the whole motor was baked with this charcoal-like sludge. On my break, I sat there, literally chipping away at it."_

20 or 30 years ago, when Pennzoil (and Quaker State and others) used a Group I Pennsylvania crude, this might have been true. However, for the past 10 years or so they have been using an ultra-clean running Group II+ mineral oil with one of the most potent additive packages on the market.

But the myth of 'Pennzoil = waxy build' up persists, though, as *m_aguilar1's* post shows. 

Some of this is because Pennzoil advertises a "paraffinic" base oil which people associate with paraffin. However similar the words are, "paraffinic" has nothing to do with paraffin wax. Paraffinic base oils are the highest quality mineral base oils and lots of companies use them.

Most sludged up motors get that way because of abuse and clogged up PCV systems. Period.

Valvoline has the weakests additive packages going. While not a 'terrible' oil, I'd rather use SuperTech.

Older Castrol formulas stressed lower detergents and were known to sludge up motors which were prone to getting dirty. The newer stuff is better ... but it's still not my first choice.


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Bror Jace said:


> ...However similar the words are, "paraffinic" has nothing to do with paraffin wax.


Huh? CnH2n+2


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*Animal*: _"Huh? CnH2n+2"_

I am not a chemist and I can't explain it as technically as I'd like, but a parrafinic base oil has nothing to do with parrafin wax. Many people believe that a parrafinic base oil has a lot of free-floating parrafin wax in it and it's the wax particles that lubricate ... but also leave a heavy, sludgy residue.

This is not true.

There are two types of refined mineral oils: Napthalenic and parrafinic ... with the latter being the superior quality lubricant.

You'd have to search BITOG and other technical sites to find a better, more thorough explanation.


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Bror Jace said:


> I am not a chemist and I can't explain it as technically as I'd like, but a parrafinic base oil has nothing to do with parrafin wax. Many people believe that a parrafinic base oil has a lot of free-floating parrafin wax in it and it's the wax particles that lubricate ... but also leave a heavy, sludgy residue.
> 
> This is not true.
> 
> ...


I'm not a chemist either, though chemistry was one of my favorite hs subjects. Also, I do speak English and suspected that "paraffin" and "paraffinic" were somehow related. Paraffin wax is a paraffinetic, though not all paraffinetics are classified as paraffins. However, just because something states it is paraffinetic doesn't mean it isn't paraffin. 
As to whether it is any better than Napthalenic (CnHn2), I'll take your word until proven otherwise, though I believe each has its benefits and most petroleum oils are a combination of both. 
As for your earlier statement "Any higher than that (Group III) and it is deemed a 'synthetic.'" I believe it may be more accurate to say "deemed as good as synthetic" or "equivalent to synthetic" but no amount of refinement makes a true synthetic - no matter what marketing types would have you believe. 
I may be coming of as nit-picking, but when technical terms are misused (or any word fro that matter) it only degrades our communications to the point we will argue about the term "is".


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## architectdave (Aug 29, 2005)

*On topic sort of....*



m_aguilar1 said:


> I've been working in automotive retail for the past 7+ years, an I have seen some very nasty motors. Some that were replaced for using Pennzoil. From what I've been told its called "PennSludge"- I've seen as bad as a motor coming to us a core, the whole motor was baked with this charcoal-like sludge. On my break, i sat there, literally chipping away at it. IMO I would go with Castrol or Valvoline for reg. oil. Synthetic oil is alot better, runs cooler, and if you needed to- you can go alittle longer without having to change your oil. But I don't recommend going over 4,000 miles. Just my 2Cents.



Ive been reading lately that the norm in Europe is to change oil once a year or every 10k miles. Some claim that 3 month 3k miles is just north american marketing that has become rule....you guys want to chime in on this? 

Im just looking for some opinions since the topic is oil good and bad


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

architectdave said:


> Ive been reading lately that the norm in Europe is to change oil once a year or every 10k miles. Some claim that 3 month 3k miles is just north american marketing that has become rule....you guys want to chime in on this?
> 
> Im just looking for some opinions since the topic is oil good and bad


First, it would somewhat depend on what oil they are using. Second, how long to they keep their vehicles. Most Europeans I know replace their cars almost as often than they bathe. 

My brother had a toyota which he never changed the oil, just kept it topped off. It had over 100K. I wouldn't have expected it to make it that far and would have been real surprised to see it pass 200K, but he sold it to me before then - hey, I was desperate for some wheels. It ran good but the early Jap cars rusted away before any drive train issues surfaced. 

Back in the 80's, I believe, auto manufactures were promoting +7.5K oil changes. It is interesting that they dropped it back when they started to offer extended warranties. 

If you do the work yourself, how much are you saving versus the risk? 

Would I take a petroleum based oil to 10K? No. I feel bad going 3.5K. But this is just my opinion/experience.


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## Xeno (Oct 5, 2005)

architectdave said:


> Ive been reading lately that the norm in Europe is to change oil once a year or every 10k miles. Some claim that 3 month 3k miles is just north american marketing that has become rule....you guys want to chime in on this?
> 
> Im just looking for some opinions since the topic is oil good and bad


I just came back from Europe (lived there for a few years). I can see them changing oil every 10,000 KM (6200 miles). Economics is probably the reason (100-120 Euro for an oil change!). Not many cars on the road that are over 5 years old and or 200,000+ KM (125,000 miles). I'am sure if there was a "Jiffy Lube" with 15 Euro oil changes, they would change it as often as us!

X


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*Animal*: _" I ... suspected that "paraffin" and "paraffinic" were somehow related. Paraffin wax is a paraffinetic, though not all paraffinetics are classified as paraffins. However, just because something states it is paraffinetic doesn't mean it isn't paraffin."_

Looks like we need a genuine expert here to clarify the technical language and explain word origins, but what I said above is an important point people mess up. A "paraffinic" base oil is a not a waxy, sludgy oil prone to clogging up motors.

_"As to whether [paraffinic] is any better than Napthalenic (CnHn2), I'll take your word until proven otherwise, though I believe each has its benefits and most petroleum oils are a combination of both."_

In addition to hearing from people with actual chemical and engineering degrees/backgrounds about these two, "paraffinic" is often cited in advertising as the superior of the two (by many different brands) however given the misconceptions about these terms stuff, I wonder at the wisdom of this.

_"As for your earlier statement "Any higher than that (Group III) and it is deemed a 'synthetic.'" I believe it may be more accurate to say "deemed as good as synthetic" or "equivalent to synthetic" but no amount of refinement makes a true synthetic - no matter what marketing types would have you believe."_

Again, I agree with you that only Group IV and V compounds (PAOs, esters, etc ...) are genuine/authentic synthetics, however we both know that Group III oils are commonly sold as "synthetic" and people here should be aware of that.

One of my original points was that some mineral oils have come a long, long way and the difference between a Group I and Group II+ oil is great ... even though they may sit right next to each other on store shelves and be priced similarly.

Oh, and the most heavily advertised brand is not always the best.


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Bror Jace said:


> ...In addition to hearing from people with actual chemical and engineering degrees/backgrounds about these two, "paraffinic" is often cited in advertising as the superior of the two (by many different brands) however given the misconceptions about these terms stuff, I wonder at the wisdom of this.


I'll take experience over degrees any day. I once heard scientists said it was theoretically impossible for bumble bees to fly. Whether this was true (at the time) or not, it exemplifies my point - what looks good or bad on paper may not be so in the real world. Then again, my experience is likely different than yours. 


> Again, I agree with you that only Group IV and V compounds (PAOs, esters, etc ...) are genuine/authentic synthetics, however we both know that Group III oils are commonly sold as "synthetic" and people here should be aware of that.


Buyer beware. 


> One of my original points was that some mineral oils have come a long, long way and the difference between a Group I and Group II+ oil is great ... even though they may sit right next to each other on store shelves and be priced similarly.


Automotive technology in general (including lubricants) has come a long way. Exceeding 100K miles used to be rare, now we are saying it's just broken in.  


> Oh, and the most heavily advertised brand is not always the best.


What's the saying, "marketing sells"? I started buying Nissan because the equivalent Toyota cost +10% more. I've owned both and honestly prefer Nissans. Toyota does have the name recognition, though (not that they don't make a good product).

:cheers:


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## Dnipro Max (Jul 26, 2005)

so what one is the best traditional oil? and syndetic?


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Dnipro Max said:


> so what one is the best traditional oil? and syndetic?


My understanding is ester synthetics, if you have money to burn.


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## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Dnipro Max said:


> so what one is the best traditional oil? and syndetic?


Whichever one is on sale at Wal-Mart, and either Mobil 1 or Amsoil. Once I scored four casers of Mobil 1 for $.99 a quart at AutoZone cause they were clearing out inventory. If you live near a Knecht's Auto Parts, they have 76 5-30 and 10-30 semi-synthetic on sale for $1.29 a quart right now...


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## thrbek (Oct 27, 2005)

*Valvoline VS. Penzoil*



Redwood said:


> I've been a car nut for 30 years and have seen a lot of engines torn down. I would definately prefer Valvoline to Pennzoil. Maybe its all different now, but I remember Pennzoil used to produce a lot of sludge.  Redwood



I agree with you Redwood. For many years, Penzoil was known for producing a lot of engine sludge because they didn't use a "pure base" for their oil. They changed that in the late '90's and now Penzoil and Valvoine are fairly identical. I would buy either...just get whatever is on sale if you're going to do it yourself.

If you have the choice at the dealer, I'd choose Valvoline. They make great oil.

-Tony


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## thrbek (Oct 27, 2005)

*17K between oil changes*



architectdave said:


> Ive been reading lately that the norm in Europe is to change oil once a year or every 10k miles. Some claim that 3 month 3k miles is just north american marketing that has become rule....you guys want to chime in on this?
> 
> Im just looking for some opinions since the topic is oil good and bad


Yeah...I almost bought a BMW 3 series a few weeks ago and BMW reccomends oil changes every 17,000 miles because the 3-series uses a synthetic oil. Pretty weird eh? The new 2006 3 series don't even have oil dip-sticks. The computer just hollers at you when it's time for an oil change or if the oil gets low.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_"I agree with you Redwood. For many years, Pennzoil was known for producing a lot of engine sludge because they didn't use a "pure base" for their oil."_

The cases of sludging in older engines were greatly exaggerated ... and most were either caused by a lack of proper maintenance (which is frightfully common) and/or a malfunctioning PCV valve which will sludge up a new engine ... even one using a top quality synthetic oil.

Old myths and misinformation die hard ... and some people can't even read through a thread before they post in it.  

_"If you have the choice at the dealer, I'd choose Valvoline. They make great oil."_

It's a free country and you can do what you want ... but Valvoline (Ashland) doesn't _make_ oil ... they buy their motor oil basestocks from other companies like Conoco, etc ... Ashland makes (refines) some products but motor oil is _not_ one of them. In this respect, they are similar to Castrol ... merely a _blender_.

Except, of course, that Valvoline All-Climate has the weakest additive package of any motor oil going. I'd rather use SuperTech. 

_"[Pennzoil] changed that in the late '90's and now Pennzoil and Valvoine are fairly identical."_

That is false ... a completely incorrect statement as I pointed out earlier in this thread. They are quite different ... and have been consistently so for the past couple of decades.  

And even if Pennzoil _did_ sludge up more motors than any other oil ... that would make sense as it is the #1 selling brand of oil. The odds say it will get blamed for most of the problems ... real as well as imagined.

*thrbek*:_ ...I almost bought a BMW 3 series a few weeks ago and BMW recommends oil changes every 17,000 miles because the 3-series uses a synthetic oil. Pretty weird eh? The new 2006 3 series don't even have oil dip-sticks. The computer just hollers at you when it's time for an oil change or if the oil gets low._

Wow. I don't think I'd buy a car if it didn't come with a dipstick!
:jawdrop:


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## Animal (Mar 25, 2005)

Bror Jace said:


> Wow. I don't think I'd buy a car if it didn't come with a dipstick!


I'm sure some of our ancestors felt the same about hand cranks, but sometimes we just need to let go of the past.


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## thrbek (Oct 27, 2005)

*I stand corrected.*



Bror Jace said:


> _"I agree with you Redwood. For many years, Pennzoil was known for producing a lot of engine sludge because they didn't use a "pure base" for their oil."_
> 
> The cases of sludging in older engines were greatly exaggerated ... and most were either caused by a lack of proper maintenance (which is frightfully common) and/or a malfunctioning PCV valve which will sludge up a new engine ... even one using a top quality synthetic oil.
> 
> ...




Bror...

Next time I'll read the whole thread before replying. It seems that my information was based on common urban ledgends about Penzoil. I apologize for leading anyone astray...but thanks for setting me straight on Valvoline.



-Tony


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

Thanks *Tony*. Sorry I was being a bit cranky.


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