# would this be a good idea??



## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

was reading this month's scc, where there was an article on how to have a good handling car, now i think to myself, if i want the car to behave like a rear wheel drive car, and let the rear swing out a bit more, basically oversteer, i would have to soften the rear and stiffen the front tires and dampeners, now would this be a good idea for autocross?? cause i've heard a lot from the veteran drivers that for a fwd car, you'd want more understeer, or are they just misleading me??


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

azkicker0027 said:


> was reading this month's scc, where there was an article on how to have a good handling car, now i think to myself, if i want the car to behave like a rear wheel drive car, and let the rear swing out a bit more, basically oversteer, i would have to soften the rear and stiffen the front tires and dampeners, now would this be a good idea for autocross?? cause i've heard a lot from the veteran drivers that for a fwd car, you'd want more understeer, or are they just misleading me??


You got it backwards... To make the rear swing happy you set the rears stiffer. I do track work and don't like the rear too unstable... but in autocross your swinging your car in tighter turns and understeer would be terrible. So depending on weather you do auto x or track work you need to set up your suspension accordingly.


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## SR20 Who Knew? (Jul 29, 2003)

So for autocross you should soften the front and stiffen the rear??


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

SR20 Who Knew? said:


> So for autocross you should soften the front and stiffen the rear??


Well... It would depend on the course to the exact set up but I would say yes... although I've never autox'd I would Imagine eleminating understeer is the objective while increasing oversteer. So stiffer springs and struts in the rear should accomplish that. Softer ones in the front would exaggerate the oversteer... I run AGX's with hyperco springs AGX's 4 in front and 4 or 5 in back at the track. Turn it up to 8 in back and you have a very rear end happy car.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

so softer front and stiffer rear=more oversteer, good rear end, almost rear wheel drive characteristics.
and stiffer front and loose rear=more understeer, less rear movement, and more plowing.
sounds good to me, i'm gonna try this next event. :thumbup:


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

azkicker0027 said:


> was reading this month's scc, where there was an article on how to have a good handling car, now i think to myself, if i want the car to behave like a rear wheel drive car, and let the rear swing out a bit more, basically oversteer, i would have to soften the rear and stiffen the front tires and dampeners, now would this be a good idea for autocross?? cause i've heard a lot from the veteran drivers that for a fwd car, you'd want more understeer, or are they just misleading me??


Stiffen the rear springs/swaybars/shocks, run less rear tire pressure, soften the front springs/bars/shocks, stiffen the tire pressure as long as you have enough travel to keep it off the bumpstops under roll. Greatly oversimplified.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

azkicker0027 said:


> so softer front and stiffer rear=more oversteer, good rear end, almost rear wheel drive characteristics.
> and stiffer front and loose rear=more understeer, less rear movement, and more plowing.
> sounds good to me, i'm gonna try this next event. :thumbup:


The car might oversteer but its not going to recover like a RWD car. A RWD car, you can balance by feathering the throttle and steering with the throttle. A fwd car you have to give more throtttle to stop the slide while countersteering, the opposite of a fwd car, takes some getting used to.

Mike


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> Stiffen the rear springs/swaybars/shocks, run less rear tire pressure, soften the front springs/bars/shocks, stiffen the tire pressure as long as you have enough travel to keep it off the bumpstops under roll. Greatly oversimplified.
> 
> Mike


I have stock sways and hypercoils with agx. When I set the front to 4 and the back to 4 the car is very stable with a hint of the rear kicking out. When I go to 8... it's scary unstable... The back end comes around soo fast there's literally no time to react. So really all he would have to do is get some adjustable struts and set them to their firmest setting.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

while we're in the area of ideas, i'm looking for a new setup for the coming season, i'm planning of running konig heliums 15x6.5 for 10.8lbs each and wondering if i should go with victoracer v700's or falken azenis for the track.
i already wore out a set of r-compounds the last season, but was speechless when they started slipping and losing grip, i was all over the track, and i was running 2nd in csp for the most of last season, then my tires gave way, then i ended up in 4th-that was very freaking frustrating-anyways, what do y'all think i should roll with this next season.


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

azkicker0027 said:


> while we're in the area of ideas, i'm looking for a new setup for the coming season, i'm planning of running konig heliums 15x6.5 for 10.8lbs each and wondering if i should go with victoracer v700's or falken azenis for the track.
> i already wore out a set of r-compounds the last season, but was speechless when they started slipping and losing grip, i was all over the track, and i was running 2nd in csp for the most of last season, then my tires gave way, then i ended up in 4th-that was very freaking frustrating-anyways, what do y'all think i should roll with this next season.


Are you talking about auto x? I've never autox'd only been on tracks... but here's my thoughts...

For auto x you probably wouldn't want an R tire like hoosier's or even victoracers because you don't have much time to heat them up right? On a 2.5 mile fast road course it takes about 3 laps to get the tires up to temp. So I can't imagine that you could get near their good operating temps on an autox course. Now as far as azenis they are a street tire and don't need to be extremely hot to function properly. If you were to drive around on R on the streets you would find that Azenis would be stickier at those operating temps. So if I were you I'd buy azenis... actually I am going to replace my azenis from last season here pretty soon.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

just based on that, azenis it is, plus it's cheaper too compared to the victoracers, and i don't need to switch out wheels at the event, just drive them there and heat them up, thanks. :thumbup:


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

2SR20DE said:


> I have stock sways and hypercoils with agx. When I set the front to 4 and the back to 4 the car is very stable with a hint of the rear kicking out. When I go to 8... it's scary unstable... The back end comes around soo fast there's literally no time to react. So really all he would have to do is get some adjustable struts and set them to their firmest setting.


Setting AGX to 8 in the rear causes late turn oversteer, not what he wants I think, its hard to recover from it.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

azkicker0027 said:


> while we're in the area of ideas, i'm looking for a new setup for the coming season, i'm planning of running konig heliums 15x6.5 for 10.8lbs each and wondering if i should go with victoracer v700's or falken azenis for the track.
> i already wore out a set of r-compounds the last season, but was speechless when they started slipping and losing grip, i was all over the track, and i was running 2nd in csp for the most of last season, then my tires gave way, then i ended up in 4th-that was very freaking frustrating-anyways, what do y'all think i should roll with this next season.


Azenis'es are not race tires, just good dry grip street tires and good for ST class, the V700's grip way better.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

2SR20DE said:


> Are you talking about auto x? I've never autox'd only been on tracks... but here's my thoughts...
> 
> For auto x you probably wouldn't want an R tire like hoosier's or even victoracers because you don't have much time to heat them up right? On a 2.5 mile fast road course it takes about 3 laps to get the tires up to temp. So I can't imagine that you could get near their good operating temps on an autox course. Now as far as azenis they are a street tire and don't need to be extremely hot to function properly. If you were to drive around on R on the streets you would find that Azenis would be stickier at those operating temps. So if I were you I'd buy azenis... actually I am going to replace my azenis from last season here pretty soon.


Nope you are totaly off base. Race tires are worth 2-4 seconds on a typical one minute autocross course over a good street tire.

Mike


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

ok, i noticed too that the v700 has a traction of A, while the azenis has AA, so what tires should i go with?? but yeah, like what i've read before, tire determination is really confusing. one more thing, at one of the venues, cause we have 2, it's sealed asphalt and the v700's kicked arse, but at the other one, it's rough and gravel-like so i tore up the outside edges of my v700's and grip was gone, so maybe, i'll go with the azenis this time, for higher treadwear, and almost-there-with-the-v700-grip.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

azkicker0027 said:


> ok, i noticed too that the v700 has a traction of A, while the azenis has AA, so what tires should i go with?? but yeah, like what i've read before, tire determination is really confusing. one more thing, at one of the venues, cause we have 2, it's sealed asphalt and the v700's kicked arse, but at the other one, it's rough and gravel-like so i tore up the outside edges of my v700's and grip was gone, so maybe, i'll go with the azenis this time, for higher treadwear, and almost-there-with-the-v700-grip.


I can assure you that the Kumhos will have way more grip no matter what the situation. Azenis is not a race tire. If you are tearing up your tire edges, you need more tire pressure and/or more negative camber.

Mike


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

i compensated for that with the pressures too, but when it slips, it was all across the tires. and here's another idea, what about 205/50 15's in the front and 195/55 15's in the rear. i saw a guy do that on an ITR and it helped out to loosen the rear a bit.


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> I can assure you that the Kumhos will have way more grip no matter what the situation. Azenis is not a race tire. If you are tearing up your tire edges, you need more tire pressure and/or more negative camber.
> 
> Mike


My friend ran his victo's on the street a while ago and he said that my azenis have more grip than his victo's and I have 195 while his were 205. I have never autox'd but I'm assuming you don't see nearly the tire temps that you do on a road course. Those tires just like hoosiers are meant to run at high temps.... I've been in the car with him and they don't seem to have the grip the azenis do in a lower temp environment... so I'm not off base I said these things based on actual experience. No the azenis is not an R tire and no one said it was. It is however very sticky and has a very very stiff side wall.

I'm not saying your wrong... just what I've had experience with... maybe they work fine for autox... I wouldn't know.


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> I can assure you that the Kumhos will have way more grip no matter what the situation. Azenis is not a race tire. If you are tearing up your tire edges, you need more tire pressure and/or more negative camber.
> 
> Mike


From my experience on road courses... it seems that kumho's require much more neg camber than the azenis (It may be that the sidewall on the azenis is stronger... I wouldn't doubt it... thems things is stiff). I didn't adjust my camber at all and the tread wore very evenly and tire temps were within 20deg across the tire. Now my friend with the same sentra was running victo's on the same day. His pressures were already at 40psi and he was chewin top sidewall on the same amount of camber (both of us had h&r springs at the time, aligned at the same shop). He put in a camber bolt and compensated in toe and his tires then wore properly, good tire temps across the tread.


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

morepower2 said:


> Setting AGX to 8 in the rear causes late turn oversteer, not what he wants I think, its hard to recover from it.
> 
> Mike


Yeah it is pretty late and at high speed... there's no recovering... That's a good point... At lower speeds though... I think it may be more controlable. I havn't really played with it too much on the street, I usually leave them at 4 on the back.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

2SR20DE said:


> My friend ran his victo's on the street a while ago and he said that my azenis have more grip than his victo's and I have 195 while his were 205. I have never autox'd but I'm assuming you don't see nearly the tire temps that you do on a road course. Those tires just like hoosiers are meant to run at high temps.... I've been in the car with him and they don't seem to have the grip the azenis do in a lower temp environment... so I'm not off base I said these things based on actual experience. No the azenis is not an R tire and no one said it was. It is however very sticky and has a very very stiff side wall.
> 
> I'm not saying your wrong... just what I've had experience with... maybe they work fine for autox... I wouldn't know.


I assure you that you are wrong unless the Kumhos were baked and heatcycled many times. Azenis are not race tires, they are good ST tires.

Mike


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

well, the kumho's heat up fast and all, but the frequent heat cycles decreases it's life span, that's why they're strictly track tires for me, and when it gets old, the rubber hardens, not being soft and gummy when i first had them, i guess that also being the treadwear is just 50 compared to the azenis, and the azenis will undoubtedly last longer too.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

i stand corrected, Azenis doesn't have AA, only A similar to the v700, but the treadwear is way more than 50, i think it was some other more expensive tire that had that AA for traction.


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

azkicker0027 said:


> i stand corrected, Azenis doesn't have AA, only A similar to the v700, but the treadwear is way more than 50, i think it was some other more expensive tire that had that AA for traction.


Hmm... stand corrected again  

UTQG rating: 200 AA


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

huh?? what?? kinda lost, but for some clarity, i'm talking about azenis sport, apologies if i failed to state that earlier, but what has a traction of AA?? azenis sport has just A.


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

azkicker0027 said:


> huh?? what?? kinda lost, but for some clarity, i'm talking about azenis sport, apologies if i failed to state that earlier, but what has a traction of AA?? azenis sport has just A.


http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Falken&tiremodel=Azenis+Sport


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

2SR20DE said:


> http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Falken&tiremodel=Azenis+Sport


Well it says AA but I guess that's A track and A temp... I don't know I was thinking it was AA but it's 200treadwear


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

dang, my heliums are light, they only weigh 10lbs, as proven by my shower scale :thumbup: ,but i can't wait to mount them on my tires and start off the season this sunday, wish me luck :thumbup:


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## 2SR20DE (May 17, 2003)

azkicker0027 said:


> dang, my heliums are light, they only weigh 10lbs, as proven by my shower scale :thumbup: ,but i can't wait to mount them on my tires and start off the season this sunday, wish me luck :thumbup:


What tires did you end up going with??

Oh yeah... Good Luck!


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

i went with falkens in the front and my dad's used ones from his miata on the rear, so i'm going with with 205's in the front and 195's in the back, i know it's a weird concept, but we'll see what happens, and also trying to save money with those 195's. :thumbup: 

thanks!!! i'll represent at the event!!! go NISMO!!!! :thumbup:


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

azkicker0027 said:


> i went with falkens in the front and my dad's used ones from his miata on the rear, so i'm going with with 205's in the front and 195's in the back, i know it's a weird concept, but we'll see what happens, and also trying to save money with those 195's. :thumbup:
> 
> thanks!!! i'll represent at the event!!! go NISMO!!!! :thumbup:


forget this setup, it only works if you want to drift, cause that was what i did the whole time, i tried adjusting pressures, dampening, bars, and the rear end would just come around so i had to countersteer, i screwed up, but i looked cool drifting.


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## azkicker0027 (May 31, 2002)

the Falkens rocked, after correcting my driftind fiasco. they held on so well, i didn't even make them squeal, it's like whoa, and they are really cheap too, great bang for the buck, or so. :thumbup: i highly recommend those.


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