# Advince Designs



## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

I'm still looking for anyone who is running AD struts and atuo crossing. Please respond, I'm looking for help on spring rates and strut tuning. Thanks

I


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 has therm, and hopefully I will some time.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *I'm still looking for anyone who is running AD struts and atuo crossing. Please respond, I'm looking for help on spring rates and strut tuning. Thanks
> 
> I *


I run 500 in/ls front and 400 in/lb rear springs. It is sort of streetable and awsome on the track.

Mike


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

*AD's*

Thanks for the input. Is the car fairly nuetral with this front to back precentage and would you sugest a 425 or 450 rear to get the rear to step out a little? Also how large of a rear bar do you run? Thanks


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: AD's*



Popeye said:


> *Thanks for the input. Is the car fairly nuetral with this front to back precentage and would you sugest a 425 or 450 rear to get the rear to step out a little? Also how large of a rear bar do you run? Thanks  *


The car is pretty neutral but it has a bit of low speed push, mostly because I think the ST front bar is binding because of the low ride height.

I am going to get the new progress adjustable bars as soon as they come out. These have heim joints and won't bind.

Mike


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Thanks Mike.
I have the progress rear bar on order and was planning to run the stock front. Let me know how the progress front bar works out for you. Have you lowered the car more than two inches? and are you also running the Ground Control camber plates?

Calvin


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Thanks Mike.
> I have the progress rear bar on order and was planning to run the stock front. Let me know how the progress front bar works out for you. Have you lowered the car more than two inches? and are you also running the Ground Control camber plates?
> 
> Calvin *


The car is lowered about 3 inches but we may rasie it about 1/2 inch or raise the spring rates to 600/500 to alive the swaybar binding issues and the low speed push.

We are also running the GC camber plates.

Mike


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Have you tried raising the spring rate in the rear and leaving the front where its at? I would think this might help the car to be more neutral and not push. I obviously hav'nt had a chance to play with spring rates on my car but stiffining up the rear should help in theory. Let me know how it works out for you.

Thanks
Calvin


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Have you tried raising the spring rate in the rear and leaving the front where its at? I would think this might help the car to be more neutral and not push. I obviously hav'nt had a chance to play with spring rates on my car but stiffining up the rear should help in theory. Let me know how it works out for you.
> 
> Thanks
> Calvin *


No it is pushing because the front bar is binding.

Mike


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Have you tried raising the spring rate in the rear and leaving the front where its at? I would think this might help the car to be more neutral and not push. I obviously hav'nt had a chance to play with spring rates on my car but stiffining up the rear should help in theory. Let me know how it works out for you.
> 
> Thanks
> Calvin *


One of the problems with raising the rear spring rate is the "spring rate" of the coachwork itself is much lower. Until you stiffen the rear of the B13, rear spring rate tuning is a bit of a crapshoot.

The best B13 I've ever driven has 450/275 springs with front ST bar and rear Nu-Tech bar. That car really rotated and it goes against all conventional wisdom. It's a head scratcher and I'm too chicken to try it myself, but this car rotated extremely well on the race track and actually roated so well it came as a bit surprise when I took the first turn in anger. We had a bit of a big slide that I had to gather up.

In contrast, Grover's ITS race car is running 450/400 with the same bar set-up and doesn't even come close to rotating so well and it even has a bolt-in cage (for now - should have a welded cage by next season).


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

I just installed a set of AD struts with the GC hardware. For its first autox I set the car up with spring rates of 350f/325r, stock front sway bar, Nu-Tech rear bar (middle setting), GC CC plates (2 neg camber, 2 pos caster) and Stillen STB (with Higashi brackets).

With this setup the car pushed badly although I could get some throttle oversteer. With my previous suspension (GC/GABs) I ran 300f/200r with the Nu-Tech bar on full stiff and the car would rotate quite nicely. For the next autox I plan on replacing the 325 springs for the 300 springs and setting the Nu-Tech rear bar full stiff.

Even with the car pushing I had my best finish of the season. These AD struts are the real deal. The car corners and holds its line much better than with my old GC/GAB setup.

Also, it sounds like the car Mike is referring to is a track car and not one that is autocrossed. I'm not sure I'd want to run the 500f/400r rates for an autocross.

Steve


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *The car is lowered about 3 inches *


Mike,

How were you able to lower the car so much? My car is lowered about 1.5 inches and I only have about 1.5 inches of travel up front until I hit the bump stops. I'm running the AD struts with GC CC plates.

What top hat are you using in the front? Mine has a profile that looks to be about 1.5 to 2.0 inches tall.

This is quite a bit different than the design of the top hat in the rear which is very flat. I talked to Jay at GC and this is design that the SE-R guys came up with.

I figured I could gain quite a bit more travel if I went with a lower profile hat.

Steve


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

autoxer7 said:


> *I just installed a set of AD struts with the GC hardware. For its first autox I set the car up with spring rates of 350f/325r, stock front sway bar, Nu-Tech rear bar (middle setting), GC CC plates (2 neg camber, 2 pos caster) and Stillen STB (with Higashi brackets).
> 
> With this setup the car pushed badly although I could get some throttle oversteer. With my previous suspension (GC/GABs) I ran 300f/200r with the Nu-Tech bar on full stiff and the car would rotate quite nicely. For the next autox I plan on replacing the 325 springs for the 300 springs and setting the Nu-Tech rear bar full stiff.
> *


Bigger bar is probably better than stiffer springs in an unreinforced B13 (read, no welded cage).



autoxer7 said:


> *Also, it sounds like the car Mike is referring to is a track car and not one that is autocrossed. I'm not sure I'd want to run the 500f/400r rates for an autocross.*


Why not Steve? The big rates will speed up the load transfer in transition and big rear rates will helps somewhat with rotation. The only serious problem I could see is if the front bar were too stiff (and possibly the springs) to the extent that the inside front tire would no longer make contact with the road.


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Geo said:


> *Why not Steve? The big rates will speed up the load transfer in transition and big rear rates will helps somewhat with rotation. The only serious problem I could see is if the front bar were too stiff (and possibly the springs) to the extent that the inside front tire would no longer make contact with the road. *


I guess I'm falling prey to Sam Stranos thinking where stiffer isn't always better. 

I've driven an SE-R with spring rates of 350f/250r and ST bars (front and rear) at an autox. The car would rotate quite nicely especially in the sweepers, however, the front definitely had problems with grip in slaloms.

I think for an autox car you need to be cognizant of the surfaces you run on. All our surfaces are asphalt and hardly what you'd call smooth. By comparison all the tracks I've run on are baby butt smooth.

Steve


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

autoxer7 said:


> *
> 
> I guess I'm falling prey to Sam Stranos thinking where stiffer isn't always better.
> 
> ...


Oh god, Sam Strano, the expert of all experts, I'll be quiet.

Seriously, in most cases you will want to run the softest spring that won't bottom out under roll to get the most grip but on Sentra's that is a pretty stiff spring.

Sentras have almost no wheel travel so they have to be run stiff to keep from bottoming mid turn under load. Second if you do have shortaned struts, which will allow a decent ride height, you are in bump steer land and want to limit chassis movement to a large degree so this won't be an issue.

Third, ST bars bind at low ride heights and hit the lower arm effectivly locking up the suspension and causing push. The Progess bars are designed around a lower vehcile and mount above the LCA so they won't hit. They also have heim joint end links so they won't bind.

Mike


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

*AD's*

Thanks for all the coments guys. It's nice to know there are some other people out there who arn't content with goiong in a straight line. I think I will still start out with 400/325 and see where it gets me. This is my first sentra so I thank all of you for any help you can give. The car ran it's first autocross yesterday, on stock suspension, only a set of 15x7 K1"s with 205/50 Azeina's. I was a full second behind first and second place,( both taken by a fully preped BMW 325 with two good drivers) but the car felt really good. I can't wait to start playing with my AD's!!


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Steve,
What class are you running? And was the car at Bremerton this year?


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Geo,

How low do you need to go to get the rollcenter close to the ground, or just below? Thought you might know , and I wouldn't have to do the calculations.

Thanks,
Calvin


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Steve,
> What class are you running? And was the car at Bremerton this year? *


I'm running Street Mod and finished 10th out of 19 at the Nat Tour in Bremerton. This was with my old GC/GAB suspension.

I'm running a NA 11:1 engine with S3 cams but only putting down 150hp. I've driven a BB DET with T25 turbo at a previous event but didn't care for the lag. I much prefer the response of NA... I'm looking to install an SR20VE in the next six months or so.

Which region do you run with?

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Steve

I run in the Utah chapter. I'm building the car for sts. I drove an RS for the last two years. I liked the car a lot, but could'nt afford to make the payment, and build the car the way I wanted. I think the SE-R has a gool chance in STS if it's well setup. I drove a G20 with a BB sr20 a few weeks ago and didn't care for it much myself. I'm sure there is alot you could do to build boost sooner and have it more controlable. This car could't put the power down where you wanted it. I had also considered running in street mod with a GTI-R transplant but I'm not sure you can compete with a fully built M-3 , S4, or twin turbo supra. But who knows I don't know enough about the car to say one way or another. Currently I co-drive a 5-10 in street mod with a VG30 engine, it's a lot of fun! Good luck and thanks for the help


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *How low do you need to go to get the rollcenter close to the ground, or just below? Thought you might know , and I wouldn't have to do the calculations.*


I'm afraid I don't know. We are still developing Grover's ITS SE-R and haven't gotten anywhere near the point where we really need to get into that.

Actually, in many ways things become a whole lot simpler. Once we get our race dampers made and installed, we'll go all the way to the legal drop limit (5" at the rocker panel - about a 3" drop). Then we'll use some seriously stiff springs to control camber and toe changes. This is exactly what they are doing in Speed Touring Cars. The engineering almost goes out the window. You end up forcing matters.

We'll end up playing with springs a bit and damper settings. The biggest thing we'll have to play with is swaybars.

Anyhow, I think a stiffer front (as opposed to no swaybar) is probably necessary for autocross simply for the transitions. But like I said, I don't autocross, so my thoughts are mostly theory.


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Geo,

Thanks anyway it was worth a shot. Good luck with the car!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

autoxer7 said:


> *
> 
> Mike,
> 
> ...


I am running the latest design AD's that are specificaly for the GC plates plate that have the non-offset strut tubes and the longer shock shafts with the tall uper hat.

This makes up for the 3/4 inch of shaft that the plate normaly sucks up and allows the car to be lowered more and have more droop travel.

I have about 1.5" of shaft before it hits the long progressive bumpstop at this ride height.

Mike


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *I had also considered running in street mod with a GTI-R transplant but I'm not sure you can compete with a fully built M-3 , S4, or twin turbo supra.*



Yeah, I'm in way over my head in Street Mod especially on bigger National type courses where the extra hp makes a difference. Locally, the car *could* be competitive... that is until the top dogs feel the pressure and they up the ante as well.

I think the best opportunity for an SE-R is either in STS or DSP. Pat Griffith trophied last year in DSP at Nationals and that was with a pair of substitute KYB struts for the Shockteks that failed.

Steve


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *I am running the latest design AD's that are specificaly for the GC plates plate that have the non-offset strut tubes and the longer shock shafts with the tall uper hat.*


Thanks, Mike!

I should have the latest design as well considering I just got them a couple of weeks ago. I know I have the tall upper hat... is that part of the new design?

I re-installed my rear suspension last night with the 300 lb springs. I've got gobs of travel in the rear... perhaps as much as three inches. I'll check the fronts again tonight.

From the floor to the lip of the fender measures 23 inches all the way around. This is with 14x6 wheels and 195/60/14 Falken Azenis tires. I guess I'll have to find a stock suspension SE-R so I can compare how low I really am.

Steve


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

autoxer7 said:


> *
> 
> Thanks, Mike!
> 
> ...


Yes that is the third generation design. AD can easily upgrade the earlier versions to the latest.

Mike


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

autoxer7 said:


> *From the floor to the lip of the fender measures 23 inches all the way around. This is with 14x6 wheels and 195/60/14 Falken Azenis tires.*


I looked up the specs in the FSM last night. With the stock 185/60/14 series tires the front ride height (floor to lip of fender) is 647mm; the rear 633mm. Because I'm running 195/60/14 my stock ride height would increase an additional 12mm. This translates to a stock ride height of 25.94 inches in the front and 25.39 inches in the rear.

Since I lowered my car to 23 inches all the way around I was actually sitting *THREE* inches lower in the front. No wonder I have so little suspension travel in the front. I have since raised the fronts 1/2 inch and will probably raise the whole car another 1/2 inch.

Steve


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Stupid computer!


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

An update:

My 92 SE-R is currently configured with spring rates of 350f/300r, stock front bar, Nu-Tech rear bar (full stiff), GC CC plates, and Stillen Front STB (w/ Higashi brackets).

With my 195/60/14 Azenis tires the front ride height is 23.5"; rear is right at 23.0". This correlates to about 2" travel (before you hit the bump stops) in the front and 3+" in the rear.

The car rotates nicely with just the right amount of lift throttle oversteer when needed. The steering response is 100% better... you definitely feel it in quick transistions.

I'm beginning to see the virtues of running stiffer springs in the front to help keep the car off the bump stops and maintain a favorable camber curve. I wouldn't recommend running anything less then 350 lbs in the front. Popeye - I think you'll like the 400f/325r rates you chose.

As for the results this past weekend I ended up with my best Street Mod finish of the year where I ended up in 2nd place by just under a second to the guy that placed 2nd out of 19 at the Bremerton Nat Tour. And I didn't drive particularly well... driving sideways through the same part of the course on all four runs.

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Steve.

Thanks for the update. It sounds like the AD's are working out for you! Mine are being spipped this week, one weekend short of our best event of the year. I still will have eight events left in our season to tune the suspension, can't wait. I take it you haven't figured out rollcenter for the car either. Hopefully I will have time to do the calculations next week. I'll get back to you and let you know what I find, incase your intrested. 

Keep kicking but at SCCA

Thanks.
Calvin


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *I take it you haven't figured out rollcenter for the car either. Hopefully I will have time to do the calculations next week. I'll get back to you and let you know what I find, incase your intrested.
> *


Correct, I haven't figured out the rollcenter. Yes, I'm interested in what you find... also keep me informed on your set-up.

*



Keep kicking butt at SCCA

Click to expand...

*My goal is to finish the season third overall behind the perenial champ (4th/19 at the NT) and the other hotshoe (2nd/19 at the NT). Basically, that will put me at the top of the second tier drivers in the class. However, the competition is already asking how they can get their own ADs. 

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

*rollcenter*

I will try to get the figures by the end of next week. Did you have the progress rear bar on your car? I just installed one on mine and the end links rattle a little. Do you know anything about them?

Thanks.
Calvin


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: rollcenter*



Popeye said:


> *Did you have the progress rear bar on your car? I just installed one on mine and the end links rattle a little. Do you know anything about them?*


I have the Nu-Tech adjustable bar. The end links don't rattle. Is yours adjustable? I thought the Progress bar was supposed to be much like the original Nu-Tech bar I have.

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

The progress bar is ajustable. The problem seems to be that the end links have a little slop in them, when the bar loads and unloads it takes up the play and rattles. The only way I see to solve this is to preload the bar, but it seems it would still do it, but only in one direction. I'm also not sure I want to do this anyway. I would change the transition from one side to the other. I may need to come up with some better hime joints I don't know yet. What do you think?

Calvin


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *The progress bar is ajustable. The problem seems to be that the end links have a little slop in them, when the bar loads and unloads it takes up the play and rattles. The only way I see to solve this is to preload the bar, but it seems it would still do it, but only in one direction. I'm also not sure I want to do this anyway. I would change the transition from one side to the other. I may need to come up with some better hime joints I don't know yet. What do you think?
> 
> Calvin *


Are you able to adjust the end links so that they don't have any slop in them, but elect not to so you don't preload the bar? Or you're unable to get rid of the slop? My Nu-tech bar came with hime joints and they seem to work fine.

Steve


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Mine are being shipped this week, one weekend short of our best event of the year. I still will have eight events left in our season to tune the suspension, can't wait. *


Have you installed your new suspension yet? I'm curious how you like the 400f/325r combo.

We had a little autox test and tune on Saturday. There were a couple slow 90 turns where I was really plowing. According to the trusty tie wrap suspension meter I was hitting the bump stops. This is with 350 lb springs in the front and approx 2" of travel before the bump stops. I think my next move will be to go with 400 lb springs up front and then probably raise the car another 1/2".

So, it looks like we might end up with a very similar setup.

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

I talked to them this last week and there still working on them, they told me one more week. I wish people would tell you they don't know instead of giving you some date they pull out of there #*!. Any way, what were the front struts set at as far as compression. Where they full stiff? My other question is do you know, how much can you change the spring rates before you need to pull them apart and revalve?
Also when you got them from Ground Control did they send you any info on how to change the valving?


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *I talked to them this last week and there still working on them, they told me one more week. I wish people would tell you they don't know instead of giving you some date they pull out of there #*!. *


I had a similar situation, but then I knew ahead of time that would probably be the case. I suspect they are very busy this time of year with the Solo Nationals and Valvoline Runoffs later this month.

*



Any way, what were the front struts set at as far as compression. Where they full stiff?

Click to expand...

*You only have three bump settings. I tried setting them full stiff but it was a bit much for the bumpy lot we were running on. I settled on the middle bump setting with 1.5 turns of rebound, although I could probably turn the rebound up another 1/4 turn. 

*



My other question is do you know, how much can you change the spring rates before you need to pull them apart and revalve?

Click to expand...

*Mike Kojima mentioned you'd probably be okay until you changed by more than 100 lbs.

*



Also when you got them from Ground Control did they send you any info on how to change the valving?

Click to expand...

*No, although I'm sure they would if you asked.

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Thanks again Steve. I'll Let you know when they get here.


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

autoxer7 said:


> * According to the trusty tie wrap suspension meter I was hitting the bump stops. This is with 350 lb springs in the front and approx 2" of travel before the bump stops. I think my next move will be to go with 400 lb springs up front and then probably raise the car another 1/2". *


I just ordered a pair of 400 lb springs from GC. In the mean time I tried raising the front, but I couldn't get it any higher. According to GC it sounds as though the strut won't extend any further!

So, since I've maxed out my strut travel my only option is to go with stiffer springs. 

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Steve,
Did you change anything with the rear upper mounts, and can I run the stock mount with the AD's? Springs are 2.5" X 8" front and back, is that right? I'm looking around locally for my springs and wanted to make sure. Still no struts. Maybe by Christmas!

Calvin


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Steve,
> Did you change anything with the rear upper mounts, and can I run the stock mount with the AD's?*


I'm using the ShigSpeed mounts in the rear. They're a perfect fit for the ADs. You can use the stock mounts if you wish, however, you'll need to widen the hole to about 3/4". I really think the ShigSpeed mounts are the way to go.

*



Springs are 2.5" X 8" front and back, is that right? I'm looking around locally for my springs and wanted to make sure.

Click to expand...

*I'm using 2.5" x 7" ERS's on all four corners. They're also using sevens on the Kojima/Paule SE-R cup car. Seven inches is just about perfect on the rear; on the front you could go seven or eight. This is with about 2" of travel in the front; 3+" in the rear.

Be prepared... your car will sit low and you won't be able to raise it more than a couple inches off the bump stops in the front because of the shortened strut.

Steve


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## Popeye (Aug 5, 2002)

Where did you pick up the ShigSpeed mounts, I hadn't heard of them yet? Maybe you told me this before but can you still run a 205x50x15 with the car this low? Have you rolled the frnders?

Thanks for all the help!
Calvin


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## autoxer7 (Aug 12, 2002)

Popeye said:


> *Where did you pick up the ShigSpeed mounts, I hadn't heard of them yet? *


He's the moderator of this forum. 

*



Maybe you told me this before but can you still run a 205x50x15 with the car this low? Have you rolled the frnders?

Click to expand...

*I'm running 195/60/14 on 14x6 for the street and 205/55/14 on 14x7 on the track and autocross. I'm looking at getting 15 inch rims for the street sometime... it will be a tight fit and I *might* have to roll the rear fenders. The front with 15 inch rims should be fine.

Steve


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