# Phanthom Grip LSD



## bajan micra (May 23, 2005)

Just wanted to know if the Phanthom Grip is still the best bang-for-the-buck LSD? What's the price now, and where would I get one? To fit the 1500-1600cc engine GA series.


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## Petrovich (May 13, 2005)

Last time I heard, it was the only one, too


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Best rip-off for the buck, far as I'm concerned. It doesn't work as claimed, and also increases lateral case loading. Save your pennys, buy a real LSD. For the price they want for the PG, double that and you have a real LSD.


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## Petrovich (May 13, 2005)

Zen31ZR said:


> Best rip-off for the buck, far as I'm concerned. It doesn't work as claimed, and also increases lateral case loading. Save your pennys, buy a real LSD. For the price they want for the PG, double that and you have a real LSD.


An arm and a leg for a link to a place that sells GA16DE limited slip differentials of any kind for under $800. At <300$, Phantom Grip is better than nothing and is certainly not any worse than a clutch LSD that all older cars used to have (and some still have it). Naturally, a torsen LSD would be nice but you can't just yank one out of SR20 and put it in GA's tranny.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Petrovich said:


> An arm and a leg for a link to a place that sells GA16DE limited slip differentials of any kind for under $800. At <300$, Phantom Grip is better than nothing and is certainly not any worse than a clutch LSD that all older cars used to have (and some still have it). Naturally, a torsen LSD would be nice but you can't just yank one out of SR20 and put it in GA's tranny.


Clutch is the better type anyway, better reaction time. Unless you _want_ the slower reacting viscous type, which becomes the open type if the fluid gets worn out or leaks out..... At any rate, the PG is not even close to as good as a clutch type LSD. I've seen 2 in operation, and they didn't work either time. I'd spend the $800 to have the real thing, as opposed to spending $1100+ to find out the PG didn't work and go out and buy the real LSD anyway........


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## Petrovich (May 13, 2005)

Zen31ZR said:


> Clutch is the better type anyway, better reaction time. Unless you _want_ the slower reacting viscous type, which becomes the open type if the fluid gets worn out or leaks out..... At any rate, the PG is not even close to as good as a clutch type LSD. I've seen 2 in operation, and they didn't work either time. I'd spend the $800 to have the real thing, as opposed to spending $1100+ to find out the PG didn't work and go out and buy the real LSD anyway........


Well, for me it seems like the only option, since I can either spend $250 on a crappy clutch LSD conversion (which phantom grip is), or have $250 and a car that has one wheel sitting and another spinning. If it's good enough to slowly push me off that ice patch, it's $250 well spent, at least in my opinion. Anyway, I hope to have my car back together in 2 months, so we'll see then if it works or not.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> Best rip-off for the buck, far as I'm concerned. It doesn't work as claimed, and also increases lateral case loading. Save your pennys, buy a real LSD. For the price they want for the PG, double that and you have a real LSD.


Sure a real LSD is better but if no one makes an LSD for your tranny as in the case of the GA guys, then its not a rip off. Our instrumented testing in NPM proves it works.

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november02/phantomgrip/

As far as differential damage, there are two SE-R Cup cars that have used a Phantom grip for many seasons of road racing with no damage. Road racing is very hard on parts due to its long duration nature.

The Phantom grip work about as well as a slightly worn VLSD, not great but a lot better than nothing. A Phantom grip with the race spring pack carefully shimmed actualy works even better than that.

Steve Rockwood who has the fastest 60 ft time in an SE-R on DOT tires uses a Phantom Grip.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> Sure a real LSD is better but if no one makes an LSD for your tranny as in the case of the GA guys, then its not a rip off. Our instrumented testing in NPM proves it works.
> 
> http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november02/phantomgrip/
> 
> ...


I've read mostly bad stuff about it, (except of course for the glowing reviews on the PG site  ) so that's what I'm going by. And like I said, the 2 I've seen in operation didn't work worth a darn. 
Now, from what I'm told, they need to be maxxed out in order to work right. IE: You need to buy the heavy duty springs along with the normal setup, otherwise it won't work. The 750 lb spring kit (which you mentioned) is an extra $45 or s0 (used to be, I see they lowered it a bit from last year) and that pushes the price up even closer to LSD territory. I had considered such a setup for my Z at one time, but I wasn't convinced it would work. I'm still not convinced it would work in high torque applications such as a modded VG might put out, but a motor/trans like the GA might be able to make good use of it.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> I've read mostly bad stuff about it, (except of course for the glowing reviews on the PG site  ) so that's what I'm going by. And like I said, the 2 I've seen in operation didn't work worth a darn.
> Now, from what I'm told, they need to be maxxed out in order to work right. IE: You need to buy the heavy duty springs along with the normal setup, otherwise it won't work. The 750 lb spring kit (which you mentioned) is an extra $45 or s0 (used to be, I see they lowered it a bit from last year) and that pushes the price up even closer to LSD territory. I had considered such a setup for my Z at one time, but I wasn't convinced it would work. I'm still not convinced it would work in high torque applications such as a modded VG might put out, but a motor/trans like the GA might be able to make good use of it.


The diff we took the data from used an off the shelf PG without the springs. As you can see from the log, it worked pretty good. In a Z there are plenty of good LSD diffs but in the case of the GA tranny, there is no other option.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Without saying too much about the upcoming article I am EXTREMELY impressed with a friction style LSD on my GA16. 

You may have seen them in action but have you owned a car or driven one for a period of time with a PG? 

Honestly saying to avoid it all costs in his applicaiton which is ENTIRELY different from yours is bad advice.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Perhaps you need to read the last part of my last reply, wes. 



> I had considered such a setup for my Z at one time, but I wasn't convinced it would work. I'm still not convinced it would work in high torque applications such as a modded VG might put out, but a motor/trans like the GA might be able to make good use of it.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

wes said:


> Without saying too much about the upcoming article I am EXTREMELY impressed with a friction style LSD on my GA16.
> 
> You may have seen them in action but have you owned a car or driven one for a period of time with a PG?
> 
> Honestly saying to avoid it all costs in his applicaiton which is ENTIRELY different from yours is bad advice.


I raced with a PG in the Dog Car for one season, while not perfect, it helped quite a bit.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

The one FWD car I saw use such a device and fail was a Mitsubishi Eclipse. The RWD I saw it fail on was a Porsche 944. Perhaps it was installed improperly, but a proper LSD is a drop-in operation. Given the choice, I'd still go with a proven proper LSD, but if one's not available, I guess you have to do what you have to do.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> The one FWD car I saw use such a device and fail was a Mitsubishi Eclipse. The RWD I saw it fail on was a Porsche 944. Perhaps it was installed improperly, but a proper LSD is a drop-in operation. Given the choice, I'd still go with a proven proper LSD, but if one's not available, I guess you have to do what you have to do.


Did the diff shaft walk?


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> I raced with a PG in the Dog Car for one season, while not perfect, it helped quite a bit.


I don't doubt the only reason it worked properly in the first place was a more careful installation. A lot of people that buy these just grind down the gears and slap them in and likely don't take the time to clearance properly. It's also not exactly a drop-in operation. Me, being lazy, would take the easier way out with an LSD insert such as Motorsport Auto sells for the Z. Your experience is probably different than most peoples with the unit because you guys know what you're doing........


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> Perhaps you need to read the last part of my last reply, wes.



Point taken but that was posted AFTER you slammed it. Anyway the GA guys are stuck as you have learned and it is better than nothing at all... 

FWIW I am making pretty good power and TQ on my car and so far so good.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> I don't doubt the only reason it worked properly in the first place was a more careful installation. A lot of people that buy these just grind down the gears and slap them in and likely don't take the time to clearance properly. It's also not exactly a drop-in operation. Me, being lazy, would take the easier way out with an LSD insert such as Motorsport Auto sells for the Z. Your experience is probably different than most peoples with the unit because you guys know what you're doing........


Which means the opinion formulated of the PG based on improper installation is not a fair analysis of how well the product works....


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> Did the diff shaft walk?


That I don't know, neither car was mine. It was also at the drag strip, where diff loading is a bit more extreme. Both cars spun both wheels intermittently, not with the consistency I guess I expected. But both cars were turbo and both were in excess of 300 Hp (according to the owners) so maybe that had something to do with it. At the time it simply put me off of the PG because I thought it should work better than that.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> I don't doubt the only reason it worked properly in the first place was a more careful installation. A lot of people that buy these just grind down the gears and slap them in and likely don't take the time to clearance properly. It's also not exactly a drop-in operation. Me, being lazy, would take the easier way out with an LSD insert such as Motorsport Auto sells for the Z. Your experience is probably different than most peoples with the unit because you guys know what you're doing........


yeah if you grind the gears too much the diff can break. You don't really need to grind them, it just helps the PG work a little better.

The Mitsu is prone to have the diff pin walk stock even and I dunno about the porshe.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

wes said:


> Which means the opinion formulated of the PG based on improper installation is not a fair analysis of how well the product works....


I'm _guessing_ improper installation. Might simply be _application_. The unit probably works better in some cars than others. As far as a fair analysis, how would you handle it if you had seen 2 vehicles with a product which did not appear to work as promised.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

wes said:


> Point taken but that was posted AFTER you slammed it. Anyway the GA guys are stuck as you have learned and it is better than nothing at all...
> 
> FWIW I am making pretty good power and TQ on my car and so far so good.


I figured there was an LSD available for the GA. Seems like most all cars have had an LSD option somewhere in the line. Don't know much about that chassis. If there isn't, than I would guess the PG is the only choice to make.


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## Felonious Cat Stalker (May 1, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> I figured there was an LSD available for the GA. Seems like most all cars have had an LSD option somewhere in the line. Don't know much about that chassis. If there isn't, than I would guess the PG is the only choice to make.


Maybe in the future you could wait for someone with an opinion based on fact and actual experience and knowledge before jumping in with your $0.02.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Sp3c Fyve said:


> Maybe in the future you could wait for someone with an opinion based on fact and actual experience and knowledge before jumping in with your $0.02.


Oh , so my opinion isn't based on fact. Thanks for telling me that. I wouldn't have known otherwise. I mean, after seeing the thing in operation in the real world, I guess I shouldn't have formulated an opinion about it. So Sorry


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## Felonious Cat Stalker (May 1, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> Oh , so my opinion isn't based on fact.


No, it was not. It's pretty clear really.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Sp3c Fyve said:


> No, it was not. It's pretty clear really.


I guess real world observation isn't fact. Thanks for telling me. .


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## Felonious Cat Stalker (May 1, 2002)

Zen31ZR said:


> I guess real world observation isn't fact. Thanks for telling me. .


And thanks for editing out your insults. Your opinion was based on the _assumption_ that there was a viable alternative to the Phantom Grip for the GA16. That is not fact in my book.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Sp3c Fyve said:


> And thanks for editing out your insults. Your opinion was based on the _assumption_ that there was a viable alternative to the Phantom Grip for the GA16. That is not fact in my book.


I don't think a PG should be used if a real LSD is available, no. If one is not available, then I guess a PG is the only alternative. I made both points clear a few posts back. Thanks for making me repeat myself. This concludes my observations in the matter.


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## blownb310 (Jun 10, 2002)

Well I bought a JGY lsd [same design as the PG] from James and immediately installed it in my NX1600. It's got the higher rate springs in it. I've had it for about 10 months now. It works great and I was glad to have it during this winter's ice racing season. I've done some rallycrossing with it too. I can't say a bad word about it. Yes, they'll loosen a bit with use, but that's to be expected. It works excellent on loose surfaces, and that's where I need it. I can't spin the wheels on blacktop anyway.


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