# Local shop bad-mouthing superchargers.



## Darren (Jan 28, 2004)

I OWN A 2003 350Z AND WISH TO INSTAL A POWER ADDER SUCH AS A SUPERCHARGER OR A GREDDY TWIN TURBO KIT. I AM CURRENTLY LEANING TOWARDS INSTALLING A VORTEC OR PROCHARGER BASED SUPERCHARGER KIT DUE TO THE EASE OF INSTALLATION AND COST, HOWEVER, THE EMPLOYEES AT MY LOCAL SHOP REALLY TALK DOWN THE SUPERCHARGERS AS UNRELIABLE, NOISY, AND SHORT-LIVED (THEY SAY 20k TO 50k TOPS). LISTENING TO THEM TALK, A TURBO IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE AGREES, HAS HAD PROBLEMS SIMILAR TO THOSE I HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT, OR WHO HAS SUCCESS USING A COOLED SUPERCHARGER SETUP.

THANKS.


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## Harris (Nov 11, 2002)

I've been reading a little about supercharged 350Zs and I don't think they're incurring any problems. Superchargers and turbochargers alike need servicing at some point in time, so I don't see why the employees at your shop are talking down superchargers like that.

Even though I have no personal experience with superchargers, I don't see anything wrong with having one. Both types of forced induction (turbochargers and superchargers) have been around for quite a while. Superchargers would have been "extinct" if they weren't reliable.

I'd suggest that you contact 350Z owners who have turborcharged/supercharged their cars and ask them what each feels about what they have in their car. Make your own decision from the feedback you receive. Good luck.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Sounds like either:
1. A couple of mechanics soured by really bad experiences with old supercharged domestics
2. Mechanics who are making an assumption as to how a supercharger will affect a car just from their "expertise" and what it feels like when they're sitting inside

Either way, both turbos and superchargers will require regular maintenance, and will usually need to be overhauled before you rebuild your engine. Most modern turbochargers (the turbines) and superchargers have excellent build quality and pretty good reliability records, so don't let that discourage you from one or the other. Just concentrate on which option has a power delivery more suited for your application.

PS: Please don't write in all caps. Thanks.


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## Darren (Jan 28, 2004)

Harris, ReVerm,
Thank you for your prompt replies. Although I left this out of my original post, I was there having a Borla catback exhaust installed. They said it was the first time they had touched a 350Z, but I watched and they did not have any problem with the installation. Besides, given the 20 degree temp. here in Columbus, Ohio, I thought it was better to let someone do the job who had a lift and some heat, than to have to slide around on the frozen concrete floor in my garage. Anyway, when I talked to the mechanics and owner, it seemed as if not one of them had a good thing to say about anything except RX-7's and Supra's. They especially seemed to hate Mustangs with Vortech superchargers. I don't discriminate, I think they can all be nice rides, to each his own, I just happen to like my 350. Again, thanks for your opinions, and if anyone else has had personal experience with turbo's vis a vis superchargers, please share your experience and opinion with me.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Ah, so it's just one of those really picky, anal retentive mechanics. I can understand where they're coming from though. They might complain a lot, but they're usually pretty good at what they do. I know. I'm the same way, and I happen to be living with one right now.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

The procharger is a nice setup. Having some exposure to the procharger brand on major racing applications (mustangs) they are a VERY good supercharger. Very nice self contained units with some very unique engineering. Look the ProCharger equipped 350 Z just won the USCC. Sure there are advantages and disadvantages to both turbo's and superchargers but you have to buy what is right for you. The procharger is thus far a proven reliable power adder at a good price point. Sure you may be able to achieve more power output with a turbo setup, but at more cost. It depepnds on what you want to spend and what your goals are.


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## Darren (Jan 28, 2004)

Wes,
Do you happen to know how "complete" the procharger kit for the 350Z is? I know the Greddy TT kit comes with Greddy's emanage unit, bigger fuel injectors, and an intercooler. However, although I have come across *many* vendors selling both the Procharger and Vortech kits for the 350Z, as of yet I have not been able to source any reliable information as to whether these kits come with a fuel management solution, piggyback, injectors, etc., or whether they come with, or even can be intercooled. I could use some help with this as I admit that I do not completly understand how these kits are marketed. I have emailed Vortech and Procharger, but have only received a cursory reply stating that I should contact a vender who sells one of these pre-packaged kits. Are the kits put together by Vortech and/or Procharger, or are they put together by someone who is just using their heads and name????


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## nomellocreampig (Jan 21, 2004)

we got a 03 harley truck with s/c and it has around 50k and not a problem yet. but i would prefer the turbo charger sure the sc hits right away but it dies down as for the turbo keeps goin


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

Darren said:


> Wes,
> Do you happen to know how "complete" the procharger kit for the 350Z is? I know the Greddy TT kit comes with Greddy's emanage unit, bigger fuel injectors, and an intercooler. However, although I have come across *many* vendors selling both the Procharger and Vortech kits for the 350Z, as of yet I have not been able to source any reliable information as to whether these kits come with a fuel management solution, piggyback, injectors, etc., or whether they come with, or even can be intercooled. I could use some help with this as I admit that I do not completly understand how these kits are marketed. I have emailed Vortech and Procharger, but have only received a cursory reply stating that I should contact a vender who sells one of these pre-packaged kits. Are the kits put together by Vortech and/or Procharger, or are they put together by someone who is just using their heads and name????


Do a search man. ProCharger has a web-site with plenty of information. Call them directly and get more info. and find a dealer.


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## vaser (Jan 15, 2004)

*past supercharger problems*



wes said:


> Do a search man. ProCharger has a web-site with plenty of information. Call them directly and get more info. and find a dealer.


i have had problems with superchargers. i went throuh three chargers in my vw corrado. i blew out the guts in a stock g-ladder,a paxston and a jackson racing so i will never have anything to do with another supercharger.just my personal experience.hope it helps and good luck :thumbup:


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## spdracerUT (Jun 11, 2002)

I'd prefer a turbo over supercharger for overall power and efficiency, but there's nothing wrong with superchargers if maintained correctly. Consider that Ford uses blowers on the Lightning and Cobra, and Mercedes uses them on their cars (and the AMGs).


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

spdracerUT said:


> I'd prefer a turbo over supercharger for overall power and efficiency, but there's nothing wrong with superchargers if maintained correctly. Consider that Ford uses blowers on the Lightning and Cobra, and Mercedes uses them on their cars (and the AMGs).


The Mustang (especially the recent ones) isn't a great example of good supercharger use, but I definately agree with that.


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## SE-RtinMI (Nov 3, 2002)

It takes just as much tuning and extra add on gadgets to make a SC and Turbo reliable. Superchargers can where out faster and don't have the maximum power capabilities like a Turbo. When the SC does go bad they are quite expensive. If you get a T3/T4 kit then you can get a replacement turbo for 500$. Either way is a good choice, it just depends on what your ultimate goal is.


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

The compressor on a Vortech or ProCharger is very similar to the compressor on a turbocharger. The difference is that a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gases and the Vortech/Procharger are driven off the crankshaft by a belt. They both supply compressed air to the existing intake system.

There is a drivibility difference, however, since there is no spool-up time with a crank driven compressor since it is spinning all the time, which makes for better throttle response.

As for longevity, if you maintain them they will last. The ProCharger has a self-contained oil supply which must be changed regularly. The Vortec uses the car's oil supply, and to install, a hole must be drilled in the pan for the drain, and an adaptor is added where the oil pressure sending unit connects for the oil supply.

Lew


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

wes said:


> The procharger is a nice setup. Having some exposure to the procharger brand on major racing applications (mustangs) they are a VERY good supercharger. Very nice self contained units with some very unique engineering. Look the ProCharger equipped 350 Z just won the USCC. Sure there are advantages and disadvantages to both turbo's and superchargers but you have to buy what is right for you. The procharger is thus far a proven reliable power adder at a good price point. Sure you may be able to achieve more power output with a turbo setup, but at more cost. It depepnds on what you want to spend and what your goals are.


Prochargers suck ass, I was arguing with them at SEMA, they were claiming 80% efficency from there supercharger which is imposible from the design whoich is old school from the 50's. The blades are radial like the first turbo's in the 40's for really bad internal aero, they are thick chunky CNC machined for poor aero, the diffusion ratio is wrong, there really is hardly any diffusor in the housing. Comperable compressors are about 50-60% efficent, or about the same as a good roots blow which sucks. At SEMA the gy at the procharger booth was telling customers that the bolower was 80% efficent and was looking at me when I laughed when he said that.

I don't think Procharger has engineers with centrifugal blower design experiance. Maybe they don't even have engineers. I could design a better blower. Every aspect of their compressor is wrong. It a good thing they have huge intercoolers because of the charge heating and run a lot of boost because of the parasitic loss.

The only reason why the Z won the USCC is the car that was going to win, a GTR blew up due to oil starvation in the last turn of the road race and missed the entire drag section, and it still almost won.

Many of the Z's with Prochargers are blowing up, it has a very crude form of engine managment which can't relaibly boost a 10.3:1 compression motor.

Turbos are the way to go for maximum power and reliabilty. The only supercharger with OEM qualifed internals is the Eaton, all Garrett turbochargers are OEM qualified and built to ISO/QS9000 standards which no aftermarket company can touch.

JWT's prototype Z and G35 turbo system just fired up today for the first time, I just got home from here.

Mike


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

it should also be noted that the gear driven centrifugal superchargers don't always have zero lag. imo, a well designed turbo system will outperform a centrifugal supercharger system. turbo it :cheers:


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> Prochargers suck ass, I was arguing with them at SEMA, they were claiming 80% efficency from there supercharger which is imposible from the design whoich is old school from the 50's. The blades are radial like the first turbo's in the 40's for really bad internal aero, they are thick chunky CNC machined for poor aero, the diffusion ratio is wrong, there really is hardly any diffusor in the housing. Comperable compressors are about 50-60% efficent, or about the same as a good roots blow which sucks. At SEMA the gy at the procharger booth was telling customers that the bolower was 80% efficent and was looking at me when I laughed when he said that.
> 
> I don't think Procharger has engineers with centrifugal blower design experiance. Maybe they don't even have engineers. I could design a better blower. Every aspect of their compressor is wrong. It a good thing they have huge intercoolers because of the charge heating and run a lot of boost because of the parasitic loss.
> 
> ...


Do you know who you were talking to at the show? Was it a long haired old school dude? If so HAHA I know that guy. Wnyway I was not speaking to their efficiency as I clearly have NO CLUE about that, but rather that people have been making decent power with it. 

As for the USCC the fact that Nick's car blew up miffed me to no end. He would have ROCKED everyone pretty handidly. I have hot lapped with Nick and Jason at Gingerman a few times and that car is nothing short of amazing. 

Give us detalis on the JWT setup.....


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## spdracerUT (Jun 11, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> JWT's prototype Z and G35 turbo system just fired up today for the first time, I just got home from here.
> 
> Mike


Mike, you can't tease us like that! Heh... I was thinking for my next car (in 20 yrs or so when I have the money)..... G35 coupe with a turbo setup. Or the Skyline.. or RX-8, or RX-7 if they come out with it... But a turbo G35 coupe would make such a nice daily driver. There's this guy Patrick out in Texas that use to be in the University of Florida car club that I'm in now... he had a custom turbo setup made for his 350Z by Jotech (eh... I wouldn't let those guys anywhere near my car). But the car runs hard. I think he was using twin Disco Potato turbos.... or GT28 something or others. Either way, he dyno'd at around 370-380whp at about 6 psi if I remember correctly.

I'm just curious as to how strong the internals are on the motor. Has anyone found out yet? I was thinking (assuming I win the lottery or something) of building up the bottom end with some 9.0 or 9.5 compression pistons, and run 10-15psi. That should be good for some power  Ah, good to dream...

Khiem


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

wes said:


> Do you know who you were talking to at the show? Was it a long haired old school dude? If so HAHA I know that guy. Wnyway I was not speaking to their efficiency as I clearly have NO CLUE about that, but rather that people have been making decent power with it.
> 
> As for the USCC the fact that Nick's car blew up miffed me to no end. He would have ROCKED everyone pretty handidly. I have hot lapped with Nick and Jason at Gingerman a few times and that car is nothing short of amazing.
> 
> Give us detalis on the JWT setup.....


It was an old dude who claimed to be an "engineer", haha, old dude, proably my age, but at least I look a lot younger than I really am, but he looked his age.

Anyway I was laughing at cutaway version they had and see that Sarah was full on arguing with the guy and schooling him on compressor design.

Centrifugal superchargers are sorta a joke anyway, they have more lag than turbos, no power down low and a linear powerband that peaks at max rpm, not a fat powerband like a wastegated turbo has.

The JWT kit has twin log type manifolds, its tight down there, dual intercoolers so the radiator is not blocked and twin ball bearing sport 530 turbos. These ar pretty close to the S15 siliva turbo but with a slightly smaller trim compressor. Jim Wolf was putting on the final touches and started it up while I was their working on my car. It spooled just blipping the thottle.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

spdracerUT said:


> I'm just curious as to how strong the internals are on the motor. Has anyone found out yet? I was thinking (assuming I win the lottery or something) of building up the bottom end with some 9.0 or 9.5 compression pistons, and run 10-15psi. That should be good for some power  Ah, good to dream...
> 
> Khiem


The crank is very strong as it the bottom end of the block. The drawback is the rods which cant take more than 7200 rpm and the open deck block. These problems should be easy to fix in the aftermarket.

Mike


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## Sentra_Industies (Oct 31, 2002)

Darren said:


> I OWN A 2003 350Z AND WISH TO INSTAL A POWER ADDER SUCH AS A SUPERCHARGER OR A GREDDY TWIN TURBO KIT. I AM CURRENTLY LEANING TOWARDS INSTALLING A VORTEC OR PROCHARGER BASED SUPERCHARGER KIT DUE TO THE EASE OF INSTALLATION AND COST, HOWEVER, THE EMPLOYEES AT MY LOCAL SHOP REALLY TALK DOWN THE SUPERCHARGERS AS UNRELIABLE, NOISY, AND SHORT-LIVED (THEY SAY 20k TO 50k TOPS). LISTENING TO THEM TALK, A TURBO IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED.
> 
> I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE AGREES, HAS HAD PROBLEMS SIMILAR TO THOSE I HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT, OR WHO HAS SUCCESS USING A COOLED SUPERCHARGER SETUP.
> 
> THANKS.


Back before I wrecked my Jetta I was looking into the Neuspeed SC. THe research I did gave me these conclustions:

1. way less lag time that turbo, but far less max boost
2. Neuspeed chargers come with a 100,000 mile warranty. Companies dont warranty things for longer than they think they will last
3. less wear on the engine cause its a pretty contant amount of boost (my own theory here)


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Sentra_Industies said:


> 3. less wear on the engine cause its a pretty contant amount of boost (my own theory here)


Superchargers do not cause less wear on the engine than turbos, with both generating similar amounts of boost. If you want the same peak power out of both, the supercharger will have to run higher levels of boost becuase of its lack of total efficiency. That means the supercharger is bound to generate more wear.

PS: Have you ever ridden the S15 Silvia Spec R? Nissan claims it has a maximum turbo lag of 0.7 seconds in any situation. It's hard to tell where the turbo lag occurs on the circuit, and it's damn near impossible to discern it on the street (especially since contrary to popular belief, turbos still generate boost during its lag period).


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## Sentra_Industies (Oct 31, 2002)

ReVerm said:


> Superchargers do not cause less wear on the engine than turbos, with both generating similar amounts of boost. If you want the same peak power out of both, the supercharger will have to run higher levels of boost becuase of its lack of total efficiency. That means the supercharger is bound to generate more wear.
> 
> PS: Have you ever ridden the S15 Silvia Spec R? Nissan claims it has a maximum turbo lag of 0.7 seconds in any situation. It's hard to tell where the turbo lag occurs on the circuit, and it's damn near impossible to discern it on the street (especially since contrary to popular belief, turbos still generate boost during its lag period).


I stand corrected. It was only a theory.


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