# synthetic oil



## Guest (Apr 6, 2003)

how what is your guys's thoughts on using synthetic oil i have heard that it is alot better then normal oil and lasts longer and i have heard that it isn't any better and it is very expssvie???just wondering what your thoughts are and how many are using it?


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## Silvspec86 (Apr 4, 2003)

oh, synthetic oil is sweet stuff, you can feel the difference afterwards, it just feels smoother and lighter and it stays clean alot longer. it is supposed to protect your engine unlike any normal oil ever would, Synthetic is definatly worth it!!!!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

just put it this way next tune up drain everything and fill with synthetic and youll never go back and you wont mind payin a little extra tust me


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## brucek2 (Sep 25, 2002)

i agree. i've been using non-synth for a while and i just changed over to mobil 1 for the hell of it. expensive stuff but oh well. and ya I noticed that it was definately smoother.


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## Project200sx (Aug 22, 2002)

Yeah I'm definately a Mobil 1 user myself!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

k awesome, when i get my spec, it'll be the first thing i do just for the hell of it, thanks guys


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## 2young2retire (Aug 17, 2002)

Don't make it the first thing you do, wait until you have about 5k miles on the engine. You should wait until the rings seat before changing over to synthetic.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

^^^ what he said


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

alright man i will do that, thanks for the tip bro


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

i personaly would wait till the first tuneup about 10k and drive it easy no scratch that wait longer for the tune up im just thinkin about my car i go though a set of plugs with a quickness damn msd


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

If you want a good opinion of regular oil vs. snythetic, go ask a small plane pilot or mechanic why airplanes don't use synthetic oil.

I only use regular oil because it suspends more dirt (yeah, it comes out dirtier, but that's good), synthetic doesn't hold as much dirt....so it looks cleaner,,,,,but the dirt has to go somewhere, so it starts to build up in places.....bad. regular oil, imo is a better lubricant as well.


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## sentrapower93 (May 11, 2002)

I've been using Mobil 1 oil and a nissan oil filter since my car had 3k miles. I have 110k miles now and doing just fine. Bottom line synthetic oil works for me. Btw i change my oil & filter every 5-6k miles...


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

chimmike said:


> *If you want a good opinion of regular oil vs. snythetic, go ask a small plane pilot or mechanic why airplanes don't use synthetic oil.
> 
> I only use regular oil because it suspends more dirt (yeah, it comes out dirtier, but that's good), synthetic doesn't hold as much dirt....so it looks cleaner,,,,,but the dirt has to go somewhere, so it starts to build up in places.....bad. regular oil, imo is a better lubricant as well. *


So once again, according to the consipiracy theorist Chimmiky, all the synthetic oil users are being robbed blind, and the oil campanies are charging double for an inferior product. Oh no, the horrors!

Fawk Chimmiky, go with synthetic, you can't go wrong!


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

lol....seriously though, I'm a pilot, and those engines run at 100% nearly all the time.....yet they don't use synthetic oil.

Plus, most turbo guys I talk to tell me to stick with regular.........besides, I'm too poor to afford $30 for an oil change, lol.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

hey man i am a pilot to, small plane pilot i have my private pilots with a few endorsments, c-152's, 172's, tampico's, nite rating and no the engines don't usually run at 100% u cruise around 75-80%, and an airplane engine is a lot diferent then a car engine, i don't think comparing the two is very accurate, they don't rev the same they don't have transmissions, they have to be alot more versatile for going upside down, doing spins, spirals, aerboatic manovers, come on they are not the same man...


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

A reciprocating aircraft engine, essentially a boxer engine, is very similar in respects to a car engine.
I am commercially instrument rated here with the FAA.
Aircraft engines are used much more rigorously. Imagine running your car at full throttle for up to 15 minutes...that means, no letting off the gas to shift, etc.....kind of like an airplane on takeoff and climb. Now sure, the aircraft engine is beefier, but in the same respects it runs exactly the same way a car boxer engine does. The same suck squeeze bang blow principle happens, the same compression and combustion of the mixture of fuel and air happens, and it all creates the power to turn the crankshaft.........just in an airplane's case, it spins a propeller. 
Now, aircraft work much, much harder than car engines do. Don't you think the aviation world would have caught on to synthetic oils by now? Being how everyone thinks they're absolutely superior to regular oil in the lubrication, cooling, and cleaning characteristics? 

One of the things I remember most about talking about oils during aviation chemistry classes was that the oil (natural oil) has properties that allow it to suspend the dirts and other contaminants that are in the engine, rather than depositing them in parts of the engine. That is why the oil gets dirty.

If you are driving a car with synthetic oil, and it comes out 8,000 miles later fairly clean, where is all the dirt going that is normally in your engine? Do you really think that natural oil is just dirtier because it just is? Dirt gets in there. Synthetic oil is more made for lubrication purposes, but less for actual cleaning and removal of the contaminants...........which an engine needs, otherwise, buildups occur, whether it be dirt, carbon, whatever.

And superv, telling me aircraft engines don't have transmissions doesn't matter. Nor does the fact that they don't rev the same....so what? Aircraft engines don't "rev". The rpm of an aircraft engine is the spinning of the prop, not spinning tires.
Ok, they're not the same...........aircraft engine pistons are massive, connecting rods are strong as hell, etc. You tell me how internal combustions can be so different that they won't benefit from using regular oil vs. synthetic?

And I'm sure you could explain how, during the first 50 hours or so of a brand new aircraft reciprocating engine, mineral oil is used so that shavings of metal from the cylinder walls fills tiny holes and gaps, because mineral oil doesn't suspend dirts like the regular oil does, therefore creating a smoother surface on the cylinder. However, it is bad to use mineral oil for anything but break in, so that contaminants can be removed with each oil change. Think of this the same way with synthetic. Sure a car engine will last 100k or more, but with buildups created, in the long run, regular oil can help a car last tens of thousands of miles longer.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

what do racing engines use? 
eg. drag racing, autocross...???
i am now mixed up don't know if i wanna go to synthetic, i know that someone told me that oil breaks down very fast, and that has to do with the colour to, as for suspeniding dirt i have no idea about that, but from what i hear i might stick with regular oil, hey chipmike what would u say about those engine cleaners in a can, eg dump in a can of goop run your enigne for 30 minutes or so then drain it out, they also have them that u just dump it in and it comes out on the next oil change what do u think about them, would they clean out any residue that synthetic oil leaves?


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

I would never, NEVER use one of those cleaners. If anything, you want to use synthetic, drop the oil pan and clean it out, and wherever else you can get to to check for deposit build up.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

Chipmik, why do you invent folly lies just to back up your idiotic claims? In fact, in aviation, they DO NOT use mineral oil, they use pure, even better form of synthetic oil called PAO (polyalphaolefins).

Along with your idiotic, often silly claims such as:

Originally posted by chimmike 
"the lower the rpm, the better mileage you'll get, speed shouldn't really be a factor. "

"you run any higher than 93 without nitrous or serious boost and you're gonna do internal damage. The engine isn't made for higher than 93 octane......"


Chimik, you leave me shaking my head. It puzzles me why people with your intellegence can even pass a driving test.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

tit said:


> *Chipmik, why do you invent folly lies just to back up your idiotic claims? In fact, in aviation, they DO NOT use mineral oil, they use pure, even better form of synthetic oil called PAO (polyalphaolefins).
> 
> . *



hahahaha, is that so? Are you a pilot? Funny, because not only am I a COMMERCIAL INSTRUMENT PILOT, I also worked as a LINEMAN AT AN FBO. So, I know EXACTLY what oil people use in their reciprocating engines, as well as the FBO's aircraft, AS WELL AS the aircraft used by Florida Institute of Technology (www.fit.edu) where I spent 2 years in the Aviation Management program also earning the ratings I have.

Funny, because every time we put oil in a plane that had less than 50 hours on it, the bottle said MINERAL OIL.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

Shows how much you know about planes. How long do mineral oils last until they lose their properties? 4000 miles on a day day? If you put that in plane, how many times a month do you have to change the oil?

In fact, the reason why oil changes are uncommon for airplanes is because they use PAO's the purist synthetic oil that usually lasts the life of the engine.

Chimik, for all the idiotic things you said, you don't have my credability. You can say you are a PH.D. from MIT in areospace engineering, but can you prove it? I don't see associated with planes in your photos or from any of your previous posts, and then you say planes use mineral oil, can you prove it?


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

Dude, if you'd read it carefully, YOU USE MINERAL OIL FOR THE FIRST 50 HOURS OF THE ENGINE's LIFE, FOR THE BREAK IN PURPOSE.

want me to COPY it from where I posted before? Here:
"And I'm sure you could explain how, during the first 50 hours or so of a brand new aircraft reciprocating engine, mineral oil is used so that shavings of metal from the cylinder walls fills tiny holes and gaps, because mineral oil doesn't suspend dirts like the regular oil does, therefore creating a smoother surface on the cylinder. However, it is bad to use mineral oil for anything but break in, so that contaminants can be removed with each oil change. Think of this the same way with synthetic. Sure a car engine will last 100k or more, but with buildups created, in the long run, regular oil can help a car last tens of thousands of miles longer."


Now that you're done attempting to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, and now that I've proven I do, you can STFU.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

tit said:


> *
> 
> In fact, the reason why oil changes are uncommon for airplanes is because they use PAO's the purist synthetic oil that usually lasts the life of the engine.
> 
> *


Oil changes are UNCOMMON FOR AIRPLANES?
HAHAHA Alright buddy, lemme bust out my FAA books and read the REQUIREMENTS OF THE FAA FOR CHANING OIL IN AN AIRPLANE. Wow, you really are full of shit. HAHAHAHA

Ever heard of the FAR? Federal Aviation Regulations? Perhaps you should, since you don't have a clue what's going on.

Every time you preflight a reciprocating aircraft, you HAVE to check the oil. The oil is the most detrimental part of the engine. Period.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

quoted from a reputable national website on oils:

Fourth generation products, are now available, as used in the aircraft industry, where oil changes are uncommon, at least in jet planes. If one can find a way of formulating a PAO (polymer) based product containing no mineral oil whatsoever, at an affordable price, then one has a fourth generation engine lubricant that can remain in an engine, almost until the engine is rebuilt.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

ok i am a private pilot up here in canada i fly small single engine aircraft for recreation, includeing cessna 152's (aerobat) 172, and a tampico, here is what it says in the front of the 152 operators manual,

Oil Grade Specifications
MIL-L-6082 Aviation grade straight mineral oil : used to replenish supply during first 25 hours and at the first 25 hour oil change continue to use until a total of 50 hours has accumulated or oil consumtion has stabalized.

This airplane was delivered from the factory with a corrosion preventive aircraft enigne oil. This oil should be drained after the first 25 hours of operation.

MIL-L-22851 Ashless Dispersant Oil: This oil MUST be used after the first 50 hours or once oil consumption has stabalized.

copyied word for word out of my POH (pilot operators handbook) now i am not sure if ashless dispersant oil is a synthetic oil or not i don't think it is, but they do use mineral oil to break in and the hours and everything seemed correct so i think i am going to have to agree with chipmike, after all he wasn't trying to show off that he is a pilot or anything he was simply stating and sharing his knowledge and from what i have read as a inexpierenced pilot i would belive that he is a pilot he seems to know what he is talking about and would really have no reason to lie about that.


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## Silvspec86 (Apr 4, 2003)

damn guys, calm down.... why the hell are we talking about airplane crap? if you havent looked recently it says "Nissan" Forums and not " i'm an arrogant pilot who wants to prove my point and too stuborn to accept other's thoughts" forum... I apologize, if i offended anyone but its getting ridiculous. we are supposed to be assesing the qualities of synthetic oil on a NISSAN!!! not a damn Cessna. bottomline is that you can't compare airplanes with cars...you just cant..period. synthetic oil has clear advantages over conventional oil (labratory proven). i know because before i swicthed over to synthetic i did alot of research and they all said that synthetic was longer lasting, contains more protectorates, more lubercating and contains more cleaners than any type of conventional oil. what chimmike said about suspension of dirt maybe true but i've never heard of it being veriafied, and think about it would you rather have dirt floating around in your engine causing damage to every moving part or having them dipposited so it can be flushed out later or...in the oil FILTER!!!!?... it has been proven that less wear was done to an engine with synthetic oil that ran 10,000 mile without an oil change than a engine with conventional oil that ran only 3000 miles. again....please guys calm down 
you dont have to prove your self right...i hope you all are more secure than that!!!


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

silverspec your right, i don't know how the hell we go into airplanes and all that shit, i guess i am going to do some research like you did, and figure out if it is worth it or not, thanks man we need ppl like you around to calm short tempered enthusiats like us hahahhahah


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

superv said:


> *ok i am a private pilot up here in canada i fly small single engine aircraft for recreation, includeing cessna 152's (aerobat) 172, and a tampico, here is what it says in the front of the 152 operators manual,
> 
> Oil Grade Specifications
> MIL-L-6082 Aviation grade straight mineral oil : used to replenish supply during first 25 hours and at the first 25 hour oil change continue to use until a total of 50 hours has accumulated or oil consumtion has stabalized.
> ...


Thanks man. Yeah, I have over 200 hours PIC time in 152s, piper cherokees (160hp) and piper arrows (200hp retract. gear). Got a cherokee up to 11,500 feet. If you know anything about small planes, that takes a damn long time, and at full power, by the time I reached that height, my climb was at 150fpm, lol.
Both the cherokee and the arrow are 4 cylinder horizontally opposed reciprocating engines. The Cherokee has a continental o-340, if I remember correctly, and the Arrow has the IO-360....the arrow engine also having fuel injection where the cherokee was carbeurated. Ahh, gotta love those float-type carbs, eh superv ?

As I learned in aviation chemical science, both mineral oil and ashless dispersant are natural oils, just processed differently. 

Anywho........Sure we're talking about pilot stuff, but the last thing we need on the board is someone talking about planes and reciprocating aircraft engines when he knows nothing about them.


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## Silvspec86 (Apr 4, 2003)

"We are supposed to be assesing the qualities of synthetic oil on a NISSAN!!! not a damn Cessna." - myself

ok Chimmike no more airplane crap ok? i dont mean to offend anyone but this is one off topic Forum! c'mon guys, lets focus here ok? who the hell cares if they know nothing about Aircraft engines, this is a Nissan Forum, people dont give a crap about airplanes.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2003)

hey man relax chipmike brought up airplane engines as a comparison, you make it sound like it had nothing to do with cars but it did, his post was there to help the original question about synthetic oil in the spec V


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2003)

Let's remember the two reasons you change oil...
1.) Moisture accumulates in the oil due to condensation during warm-up.
2.) Particulate matter contaminating the oil due to normal engine wear.

Neither of these two items go away when you use synthetic oil... and as you say... the synthetic oil is very expensive. My feeling is that if you use a reasonable grade of oil and change your oil/filter on a regular basis (I use 2K miles or 3 months) then you will absolutely get no benefit from using the synthetic. The only benefit that I see from the synthetic is that is may not be as vulnerable to viscosity "breakdown" at high milage intervals... but you should be asking yourself why you want to wait so long any way... that is contrary to the two reasons for changing the oil in the first place.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

2k miles? Little excessive don't you think?


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## Scissors (Mar 24, 2003)

I don't know about the Nissan (since it's new), but I know for a fact that the LS1 in my other car has run nothing but synthetic since birth and that I have changed the oil an average of once every 8,000 miles. The last time I cracked open the engine (at around 48,000 miles) everything looked amazingly new. So if there is a benefit to starting with or staying with dino oil, I have yet to see it.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

After posting in another thread about oil additives in the "Truck & SUV"
section, a link to this (once dormant) thread popped up.

I just read this thread. A lot of people had some good points but I thought I could clarify a few things and clear up some of the confusion and miscommunication I saw.

1) "Mineral oil," "conventional oil," "petroleum oil," and "dead dino juice"
are all basically synonymous terms. Only when you get into action chemistry
and talk to people inside the petro-chemical industry can you split hairs
among the various (technical) definitions. It's all oil pumped out of the
ground.

I think when people in this thread are saying "mineral oil" (used to
break-in an engine) they are talking about a plain, non-detergent oil. I've
heard of using this to break in fresh motors ... but honestly, it's pretty
rare these days. I don't even believe in the idea that you should not use
synthetic for the first few thousand miles (which is a whole topic in and of
itself). However, I tend to avoid synthetics during this initial time as I
like to change my oil & filter frequently (about every 2,000 miles) at this
time to flush out the initial wear bits. Engines are built to much more
exacting standards these days but if you study lab tests of oil samples,
you'll see break-in occurring throughout the first 10,000 miles, heck, even
longer in some motors. 

2) As *Chimmeke* was saying, a piston aircraft engine _is_ very
similar to an automotive engine. As a matter of fact some automotive engines
see double duty as automotive _and_ aircraft powerplants. The
air-cooled VW boxer 4 comes to mind. I've also heard of smallblock Chevy V8s
being used in scaled-down warbird replica planes like a ½ scale P-51
Mustang. Yes, loading and rev band usage vary, but there are more
similarities than differences between the types.

Jet engines (turbines), on the other hand are totally different. 

3) As for synthetics and aircraft engines, avgas still has a lot of lead in
it. Early versions of synthetic oils for airplanes (marketed by Mobil) used
PAOs (Group IV synthetic base stock) which are not known for their
solubility. Therefore, they were unable to "scavenge" (clean up) lead from
the upper cylinder walls and engine damage was the result of the build up in
at least a few cases. This phenomena is NOT usually applicable to automotive
use, however.

Besides, no manufacturer uses a pure 100% PAO base anymore. Remember the
days when synthetics were blamed for leaks in certain engines? Mobil, Amsoil
and other PAO users currently blend an ester (Group V synthetic base stock)
in with their PAO to act as a detergent and seal conditioner. This ester is
the same stuff which is added to conventional oil to make it a "High
Mileage" oil. Usually about 10-20% of the base stock. Both Red Line and NEO
oils are _mostly_ ester.

Also, keep in mind that mass-market most synthetics these days (Pennzoil,
Castrol, Quaker State, Shell, Valvoline, etc ...) are sorta fake. They use
no PAO at all but instead a highly refined mineral base stock called Group
III ... also referred to as "hydrocracked crude." It's _almost_ as good
as PAO but costs half as much to produce. However, Group II+ base oils are
almost as good as Group III and are, again, half as much. It's obvious which
offers the best bang for the buck. 

The long and the short of it is that a good synthetic (Group IV or V) is
better than a "conventional" oil but the differences usually only become
apparent if you stretch your oil & filter change interval past 4,000 miles.
This is because the additive package has more to do with reducing wear than
the base oil. Using a great conventional oil like Pennzoil, Chevron or
Schaeffer will give your engine protection as good as synthetic for
3,000-4,000 miles. I would not have believed this 2+ years ago but I've seen
dozens of used oil analysis which clearly shows this. 

If you want to learn way, way, waaaaayy too much about oils and lubricants
for cars, trucks, aviation, garden tractors, air compressors, etc ... take a
peek here:

<http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi>


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## 91 3sgte (Sep 19, 2003)

chimmike said:


> lol....seriously though, I'm a pilot, and those engines run at 100% nearly all the time.....yet they don't use synthetic oil.
> 
> Plus, most turbo guys I talk to tell me to stick with regular.........besides, I'm too poor to afford $30 for an oil change, lol.


I don't know which turbo guys you talk to man, but everybody on the MR2 forums go with synthetic... and many of them are pushing in excess of 350 rwhp!


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## SilverBullitt03 (Apr 18, 2003)

*I do a lot of short trip driving*

I have often wondered if I should run sythetic in my car. I also have seen guys go well over 300,000 miles on regular oil, just with their 3 month or 3000 change intervals being implemented. 
In my mustang, that does see the race track, I run 15-50 mobil 1 ,but as far as my daily driver is concerned, 5-30 castrol gtx. I use the OEM Nissan filters in the car and just drive it. Like a lot of people have stated, how long do you want to go on an oil change, or perhaps how badly do you beat on you car? 

Besides the fastest speed limit on the way to work is 45.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*91 3sgte*, I think you're right. If I were running a turbo, I'd want to use a real PAO & ester synthetic for all but the shortest drain intervals. They take the heat better than even the best mineral stocks and heat shearing is enemy #1. The physical shearing is pretty tough too, but not as bad as the heat of the exhaust-driven compressor.

Having said that, the Subaru WRX is AMAZINGLY gentle on oils and seems to run well on just about anything. UOAs on even modified versions of these motors look fantastic!  I think the WRX is a liquid cooled turbo and that helps immeasurably!

*SilverBullit03*, Unless you lengthen your drain interval well past 3,000 miles, synthetic is a waste. I would not have said this 2+ years ago. 

Fresh synthetic base oils do not protect any better than conventional base oils. The difference when the oil is new is almost entirely the additive package ... and both Pennzoil and Chevron are putting boron and molybdenum in their oils ... not unlike Mobil 1 Super-Syn.

Plus, they've shown that there is an iceberg principle in effect when it comes to blending. I forget whether it was an SAE or API study. You get 80% of the advantage of a synthetic by blending 20% PAO into the formula. I know Schaeffer techs feel there is very little reason to use their 100% synthetic and they recommend their fantastic Supreme 7000 blend to most users instead. It's about $3 per quart versus their 100% synthetic which is $4+ and only comes in a 40lb. pail.

The bad thing is most mass-market synthetic blends are NOT real PAO/mineral blends but rather Group II & Group III (both mineral stocks)blends ... and overpriced for what you are getting. I think the Mobil blend has real PAO in it ... but how much? Probably only 15% or so.

Want a really good, stable oil with a killer additive package that is actually a true synthetic blend?? Try Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle oil in 5W30 or 10W30. It's essentially Pennzoil with about 10-15% of the Group II+ mineral stock replaced with an ester(dibasic?) which is a Group V synthetic. The ester is a good oil, natural detergent AND a seal conditioner to help prevent (or minimize) leaks. This oil is also formulated a little thicker than most oils which are on the thin side of each weight to please the EPA (Thin oils = more MPG because of reduced hydrodynamic drag).

All that for about $2 per quart.


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## 7SPEED (Mar 24, 2003)

If u wanna go synthetic...its expensive but u can sometimes go longer on oil changes.

"AMSOIL manufactures a 5W-20 synthetic motor oil, called XL-7500 5W-20. It is a 7500 mile/6-month motor oil. AMSOIL's 5W-20 synthetic motor oil, as with all PAO synthetics, provides outstanding wear protection and increased power, performance and fuel economy in high and low temperatures and also meets and exceeds mnaufacturer specifications. 

For even better performance and protection you can also use a 0W-30 synthetic motor oil. This is the top performing synthetic lubricant for gasoline powered light trucks and passenger cars. It uses race-proven technology and provides unsurpassed fuel efficiency and better wear protection than conventional motor oils. It is a 35,000 mile/1-year change interval motor oil."


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## 91 3sgte (Sep 19, 2003)

7SPEED said:


> If u wanna go synthetic...its expensive but u can sometimes go longer on oil changes.
> 
> "AMSOIL manufactures a 5W-20 synthetic motor oil, called XL-7500 5W-20. It is a 7500 mile/6-month motor oil. AMSOIL's 5W-20 synthetic motor oil, as with all PAO synthetics, provides outstanding wear protection and increased power, performance and fuel economy in high and low temperatures and also meets and exceeds mnaufacturer specifications.
> 
> For even better performance and protection you can also use a 0W-30 synthetic motor oil. This is the top performing synthetic lubricant for gasoline powered light trucks and passenger cars. It uses race-proven technology and provides unsurpassed fuel efficiency and better wear protection than conventional motor oils. It is a 35,000 mile/1-year change interval motor oil."



I don't doubt the quality of Amsoil. However, although the oil may last that long, what about the filter!? I rather stick with Mobil 1 and change every 3500. I figured, even though it might be a bit pricey, it sure beats buying a whole new engine down the road.


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## Silvspec86 (Apr 4, 2003)

thats why you change the filter and not the oil. but meh, i like Mobil 1, Royal Purple is better than Amsoil anyways


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## Nismo21503 (Oct 29, 2003)

I've been using synthetic oil for a couple months now I plan to keep on using it. MY fiance uses it in his MR2, so he suggested I use it for my car!


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

_"but me, I like Mobil 1, Royal Purple is better than Amsoil anyways."_

I rank those three like this:

Amsoil, then Mobil 1 SuperSyn, THEN Royal Purple in last place. I have never seen an oil thin out like RP. Even their 10W30 thins out 30% in 2,000 miles ... and I'm talking lab test data and not merely looking at the oil as it runs out the drain hole. I've seen $1.08 per quart Chevron Supreme do better than that dozens of times. 

I am not a fan of Amsoil ... and their marketing and claims TOTALLY turn me off ... but I have to admit it is a very good & stable oil, especially for extended drains. Just don't go as long as they say to.

For a hard driven car, 7,500 miles is the MAXIMUM interval I would recommend for any oil.


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## nametakennow (Oct 20, 2003)

I hate to kinda steal the thread, but I'm doing the oil change deal tomorrow (or sometime in the next couple of days) and I REALLY want to change to synthetic. My bro is a huge proponent of the stuff, he convinced my dad that he should get it with a little work, but his car is an Audi... Anyway, how can I convince my dad that it's worth the extra bucks, since he's paying the tab?

edit: Got oil changed today, didn't have a chance to chat with my dad so we put in the regular stuff. Whenever I get more engine mods I'll push the issue, which is only 1 or 2 changes away.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

Hmmm ... dunno. The more I learn about oil, the more I think "conventional" oils do as good a job for short and even moderate drain intervals.

If you are going to buy synthetic oil from a mass-marketer, go with Mobil 1 or the made-in-Germany Castrol 0W30 (light green in color).


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## atomicbomberman (Jul 6, 2002)

Mobil 1 is a good oil to use, and I've used it since I got my car.

Aircraft engine and modern 4 cyl engine have one crucial differnce, the piston speed in an aircraft is uaually much slower then your everyday Honda or Nissan engine that revs past 7k. Higher piston speed = more chance of wear, and your oil can break down easier, that's where syn oil comes in, and that's part of the reason why you can keep syn oil in your car for longer periods of time.


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## o89canucks (Dec 4, 2003)

working as a mechanic for years, this is just my personal preferences and why...

cheaper oils(havoline, super tech) have a more pure base form. they leave the least amount of deposits in the engine and lubricate very efficiently.

paraffin(wax)based oils(i.e. pennzoil)leave a buildup in your engine just like the synthetics, only its not dirt particulates or carbon...its wax clogging your oil ports to the head and starving your top end for oil. I wouldn't run pennzoil in my lawnmower let alone a car...

lower end synthetics, synthetic blends, and higher end conventionals are ok to use, cause some scarring to the cylinder walls and still provide efficient lubrication.(i.e. valvoline, mobil, castrol, quaker state)

Higher end synthetics are the way to go from what ive seen, minimal cylinder wall scarring, excellent lubrication properties.(mobil 1, amsoil) And if you read the manufacturers reccomendations, it DOESN'T cost any more than conventional hers the typical schedules for both...

amsoil - use amsoil engine flush, fill and install amsoil filter. 6months/12500mi whichever comes first - remove filter ONLY, install new filter and top off existing oil. at 1yr/25000mi whichever comes first, flush engine and start over

Mobil 1 - flush engine with high grade decontaminent(i.e pro-tec oil flush or BG engine flush). Install oil filter and fill oil. every 3mo/3000mi drop the filter ONLY, install new filter and top off existing oil. mobil 1 recommends flushing and restarting every 5 oil changes/15000miles.

personally I use nothing but mobil 1, its easy and convienent. besides, you say a normal oil change costs maybe $10-15 using conventional oil, I spend $30 for the first oil change, then $10 for the next 4 to buy 1 quart of mobil 1 to top off and an oil filter. personally i think its a great payoff and i've never had a single problem yet. another positive is synthetic oil has a much higher flash point, so after you've been using conventional for 100k and I've been using synthetic, you'll look a lot worse than I do driving down the road with the smokestack coming out of your exhaust.

It's just personal preference, i'm picky about all my car products, i've had good and bad experiences with a lot of different brands. heres a list of my favorites and junk i wouldn't use in the lawnmower.

good parts manufacturers
NGK
Nippon Denso
accel
magnecor
msd
BG synthetics(I use ALL bg products, friction reducers in the tranny, synchro-shift II synthetic manual trans fluid, induction services, radiator flushes, engine flushes www.bgprod.com trust me it's VERY good stuff!!)
hurst
B&M
aem
injen
nismo
bosal
apex'i
hks
borla

junk i wouldn't use in the lawnmower:
pennzoil(read above)
bosch(especially the platinum +4 plugs, those things are the biggest pile of crap ever invented, go out, spend the money and get a good set of NGK laser platinums, you know the ones with the "R" on the side of them.)
champion(read bosch)
any other "junk" spark plugs
most of the crap on ebay(99% of it)
blitz(electraonics seem out of date, bad idea for solenoid controlled bov & boost controllers)
turboxs(cheap, manual boost controllers almost always leak)
pacesetter(cheaply made mass produced, headers usually crack, exhaust rusts out after a week...)
iceman(cheap, intakes made of a composite that often cracks)
greddy(decent, but not up to par with other manufacturers)
centerforce(BAD experiences with clutch discs exploding)

like I said, just personal experience, i'm probably gonna get railed by some greddy or blitz fan, but oh well, had bad experiences with them


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## nissanpirate (Dec 20, 2003)

o89canucks said:


> Mobil 1 - flush engine with high grade decontaminent(i.e pro-tec oil flush or BG engine flush). Install oil filter and fill oil. every 3mo/3000mi drop the filter ONLY, install new filter and top off existing oil. mobil 1 recommends flushing and restarting every 5 oil changes/15000miles.


I just change my mobil 1 oil every 5k miles along with a new filter. Is that not worth my time/money or is the oil flush then 3k filter change up to 15k cycle just as good?


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*o89canucks*, I’m gonna ask you not to take this personally ... not sure if you will or not. Your experience as a mechanic is helpful for commenting on the quality of hard parts (and I agree with you on Bosch plugs and some others) but the same doesn’t translate so well to motor oils. You seem to be repeating a lot of oil myths and pseudo-rumor jargon which is incorrect and I want to set the record straight:

_ “cheaper oils (Havoline, Supertech) have a more pure base form. They leave the least amount of deposits in the engine and lubricate very efficiently.”_

Some cheaper oils like Supertech seem to work fairly well while others like Mobil Drive Clean are less than impressive. There is no such thing as “pure base form.” Mineral base oils are either Group I, Group II, Group II+ or Group III (depending on the degree of refining/processing/hydrocracking) or a blend of those groups. Havoline and (especially) Chevron Supreme work incredibly well due to a high quality base oil and an exceptional additive package. Chevron Supreme has turned in some of the most impressive laboratory Used Oil Analyses (UOAs) and I’ve seen literally hundreds of these on BITOG and other sites.

Engine deposits ("sludge") occur when an oil’s dispersant/detergent package is not terribly powerful and it allows metals, carbon and other contaminants (not the least of which is sheared & oxidized viscosity index improver) to fall out of suspension and accumulate in the motor. It’s the result of a number of different things all occurring at once and it is difficult to isolate to one or two causes. 

_ “paraffin (wax) based oils (i.e. Pennzoil) leave a buildup in your engine just like the synthetics, only it’s not dirt particulates or carbon ... its wax clogging your oil ports to the head and starving your top end for oil. I wouldn't run Pennzoil in my lawnmower let alone a car ...”_

This is a common myth. People hear that Pennzoil uses a “paraffinic base oil” and they think parrafins = wax, like candle wax. Two similar _sounding_ terms but they are not at all the same. Most oils use paraffinic base oils and Pennzoil has one of the lowest pour points of all the major (conventional) brands proving that it could not possibly have free-floating wax particles in it. No SJ or SL passenger car motor oil does. Actually, Pennzoil has been using a Group II+ base oil (very highly refined/processed) for several years now (their “Pure Base” formula) and they were the first of the major brands to do so while many others were still using Group I and/or II. The higher the group, the fewer free-floating parrafin molecules. Plus, Pennzoil’s additive package (including moly dithiocarbamate & boron) is top notch.

Pennzoil, along with Chevron, are probably the best two conventional oil brands going. Castrol has a strong following as well but I’m a little hesitant to put it in with those other two for a number of minor reasons. I’d really like to see this old “wax” myth finally die. It might have applied to a few oils decades ago (most notably Quaker State) but all oils have been reformulated about a dozen times since then. 

_ “lower end synthetics, synthetic blends, and higher end conventional are ok to use, cause some scarring to the cylinder walls ...”_

Oil does not cause cylinder wall scarring ... but stuck piston rings can ... and that can be caused by some motor oils coking in the grooves, depending, depending ...

Actually, the rub against “lower end synthetics” is that they are not really "synthetic" anymore. They are a highly refined and hydrocracked Group III mineral oil as opposes to a PAO or PAO & ester blend like Amsoil, Mobil 1, Red Line and others ... They are much cheaper to produce and maybe perform 90-95% as well as “real” mass-market synthetics so there is a great incentive for the major brands to switch to Group III ... and most of them already have.

I’ve heard good things about BG Synchroshift but I’ve never tried it.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*Used Oil (Lab) Analysis*

I just posted a couple of used oil analyses for our 2.5L engines I found on BITOG:

http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=47046&page=2

They are currently about halfway down the page.


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## jer28 (Jan 20, 2003)

I have used mobil 1 for a long time now. I think that the synthetic oil is a better product. While I have no training in this area common sense tells me that synthetic oil does carry dirt deposits. Where do I think these deposits go, the filter of course. I have never had problems with the synthetic oil (the rumors are big leaks will happen), I usually run it 8000 miles (with a filter change). I have bought a jug of supertech's pure synthetic oil. Its $12 for a 5 Qt. jug. I'm thinking of running it for 5000 miles and then changing both the oil and filter.


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## caveman (Dec 20, 2003)

chimmike said:


> lol....seriously though, I'm a pilot, and those engines run at 100% nearly all the time.....yet they don't use synthetic oil.
> 
> Plus, most turbo guys I talk to tell me to stick with regular.........besides, I'm too poor to afford $30 for an oil change, lol.


Venture yourself in to a wal-mart. Deal with the stupid people who crawl out from rocks who have a IQ of 70, and deal with the old person who takes two minuets to cross the pedestrian walk to the front door. Get 5 quart jugs for $18.88 or $19 depending on the week. Buy in bulk so you don't have to go back soon. Get a OEM filter or Pure 1 or whatever (Mobil 1 filters cost too much now days) and spend $24 a oil change. It would be a wast to change your mobil 1 oil less then 5K miles. If you must change it ever 3K, reuse your oil filter and save a few buxs.


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## cysco00 (Mar 25, 2004)

HOLY SHITE!!!!! Now I am totally confused on this subject!! I have an 04 Spec V, that is due for its 2nd oil change (7900miles), and I was going to change to Valvoline Syntech Oil. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>..........####### Now I don't know what the hell to use!! 

OK 

After reading this post, I just called our Lubricant Engineer ( work for General Mills) for our Plant and he said the absolute best Oil is the Mobil 1 Drive Clean Synthetic Blend. Apparently this is a new product that Mobil 1 has put out since Feb. He said the Mobil 1 Rep. was just at our plant last week and gave him figures and data on this stuff which he kinda went over with me...but I couldn't remember all that stuff so I will get the info from him and post it. Or he said you can visit www.exxon.mobil.com, and see for yourself.

I don't know....still.....

Cisco C.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*cysco00*: _"Now I am totally confused on this subject!! I have an '04 Spec V, that is due for its 2nd oil change (7,900miles), and I was going to change to Valvoline Syntech Oil. BUT ... Now I don't know what the hell to use!!"_ 

It's not that bad, is it? 

But no, I wouldn't waste my money on Valvoline pretend synthetic. 

_"I just called our Lubricant Engineer (work for General Mills) for our plant and he said the absolute best oil is the Mobil 1 Drive Clean Synthetic Blend. Apparently this is a new product that Mobil 1 has put out since Feb. He said the Mobil 1 rep was just at our plant last week and gave him figures and data on this stuff which he kinda went over with me ... but I couldn't remember all that stuff so I will get the info from him and post it ..."_

I'm not sure why this stuff would be so special. The mass market blends (before nearly everyone went to Group III) used to be very little PAO (10-15%) mixed in with a Group I (or rarely Group II, II+) oil ... but double the price. At least Mobil still uses PAO as their synthetic and their additive package has improved over the past couple of years. Their SJ-rated Tri-Synthetic was terrible. 

Schaeffer's synthetic blend is definitely worth it at $3 per quart ... but the PAO content is 17-25% and the stuff has a proven UOA track record. I'm running that right now (5W30) and will test it later this year.

Please post any data you have on the Mobil blend, I'd love to take a gander at it.


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## cysco00 (Mar 25, 2004)

OK, here is some stuff off their website that was given to me! Sorry for it being so long. 

Product Description 
Mobil Drive Clean Plus NV and Mobil Drive Clean Plus HM engine oils are premium synthetic blend formulas engineered to provide added performance and protection with formulations specially designed for both newer vehicles (5W-30) and higher mileage vehicles (10W-30 & 10W-40). These products contain a mixture of high-performance synthetic fluid and quality conventional base stocks with premium performance additives boosted by 23 % which means more advanced detergent, dispersant, and anti-oxidants to help maintain or restore engine cleanliness. In addition to more performance additives, the higher mileage formulas are offered in higher viscosities to offer better oil consumption control, and contain seal swell conditioners to help condition seals as they age. These oils protect against sludge and engine rust and corrosion under severe low-temperature operating conditions. Because these are high performance synthetic blend products that have been boosted for added performance they help reduce engine wear, maintain long lasting protection and help prevent the build up of harmful sludge in hotter running engines, like turbocharged and other high-performance engines. Pour depressants and viscosity index (VI) improvers are included to provide the desired viscosity-temperature and low-temperature fluidity characteristics.

Mobil Drive Clean Plus 5W-30 NV is a newer vehicle engine oil designed for customers who want a product that goes beyond the performance of conventional motor oils. This premium synthetic blend formulation with extra cleaning and performance additives is available as an SAE 5W-30, the primary viscosity recommended for many newer vehicles.

Mobil Drive Clean Plus 5W-30 NV contains friction-reducing additives and is classified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) as an "Energy Conserving" engine lubricant. It meets the performance requirements of API SL, CF and ILSAC GF-3.

Mobil Drive Clean Plus HM High Mileage Vehicle Formulas (5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40) are higher mileage engine oils designed for customers who want a product that goes beyond the performance of conventional motor oils and address the needs of higher mileage vehicles, typically those with more than 75,000 miles. These premium synthetic blend formulations with extra cleaning and performance additives plus seal conditioners are available as an SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 10W-40. These viscosity grades can be useful in addressing oil consumption and lubrication needs of higher mileage vehicles. These products meet the performance requirements of API SL, SJ, SH and CF. Mobil Drive Clean Plus High Mileage Formula 5W-30 and 10W-30 also meet ILSAC GF-3.

Features & Benefits 



Mobil Drive Clean Plus NV 5W-30 (Newer Vehicle Formula) helps: 
Mobil Drive Clean Plus HM 5W-30, 10W-30 & 10W-40 (High Mileage Formula) help: 
Protect critical engine parts under a wide variety of operating conditions. Protect critical engine parts 
Control deposit formation in your engine Clean deposits, build-up and sludge 
Satisfies the latest oil requirements of gasoline engine manufacturers Condition seals to prevent leaks ( Note: No motor oil can repair seals that are damaged) 
Keep your engine running clean longer Reduce oil consumption 
Provide LONGER-LASTING PROTECTION for hard-working cars, SUV's , van's and light trucks Restore engine performance 

Applications 
Mobil Drive Clean Plus 5W-30 NV is recommended for gasoline fueled automobiles and light duty trucks requiring an API SL, SJ or SH product or ILSAC GF-3 (Starburst Certification Symbol). Also, this product meets the light-duty diesel engine requirement, API CF. This product is fully compatible with both conventional and synthetic engine oils. It may also be used in higher mileage vehicles but it does not contain seal conditioning agents.

Mobil Drive Clean Plus HM 5W-30, 10W-30 and 10W-40 are recommended for higher mileage (typically more than 75,000 miles) gasoline fueled automobiles and light duty trucks requiring an API SL, SJ or SH product and where a higher viscosity oil may be preferred. Also, these products meet the light-duty diesel engine requirement, API CF. Mobil Drive Clean Plus HM 5W-30 and 10W-30 also meet ILSAC GF-3. All three high mileage formulations are fully compatible with both conventional and synthetic engine oils.

If you go to:
www.
mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Drive_Clean_Plus.asp 

You will find all the numbers and specs. Actually after re-reading this post, it got kinda jumbled up from the cut and paste...prolly better to go to the website above....sorry.

Cisco C.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

*Cysco00*, I read through the descriptions and it sounds like a fairly straightforward description of the various synthetic blends high-mileage oils in general. The same text could be used to describe other brands as well. It IS an improvement over the descriptions on the first batches of SuperSyn which came out years ago. The sayings on the bottle such as "New Car Formula" and "Older Vehicle Formula" were pure marketing. The idea was to help consumers pick a _weight_ among the handful available ... as though they couldn't merely read their owner's manual. 

Now, the idea of a synthetic blend is a good one. I think it was the summation from an SAE paper I read which said there was an 80/20 "iceberg" principal at work with blends; with a 20% PAO blend you 80% of the advantages of a pure synthetic oil in most automotive applications. However, the price competition among the brands is stiff so they are always tempted to put less and less synthetic in the bottle. 

Also, an additive package boosted 23% is not a bad idea ... but I don't remember Mobil's Drive Clean oil having an impressive additive package to begin with. And these guys are the last holdouts using a somewhat primitive Group I oil while most other brands have moved on Group II and Group II+ oils for their conventional basestock.

Mobil is promoting this stuff heavily because they make a lot of money on it. To oversimplify things a bit, the blend formulation is around 90% Drive Clean conventional and 10% Mobil 1 Super Syn ... for about $2.25-2.50 per quart. Profit margin for this is higher than both M1 and Drive Clean.

In short, I don't think this is a _bad_ choice for a QR25DE ... but it isn't quite the miracle oil these sources make it out to be. If you end up using this stuff, please consider sending a sample to Blackstone labs for an analysis to see how the amount of wear metal compares to other samples of different oils used in QR25DE engines.


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## cysco00 (Mar 25, 2004)

Cool, I think I might try it.....either this one, or the other Penzoil type you suggested earlier in this thread. 

So overall, this stuff seems like a good oil for us? Is that what I am getting from you? And this research company, would I just send them a sample and they test it for free or is there charge involved? If I do use this stuff, I would definetly send them a sample to see, at my next oil change thereafter! Hopefully at a minor charge if any!.

Thanks for all you input Bror, I greatly appreciate it!! All the knowledge I can use to keep my baby purring like she is, is definetly appreciated!!

Cisco C.


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

Yeah, I think the Mobil blend stuff is worth a try. Just don't push the interval too far without analysis ... 4,000 - 4,500 miles max would be a pretty good test.

There are a number of places which offer used lubricant analysis. The one I use is Blackstone labs:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Analysis costs about $20 ... $10 more if you want a TBN check done but unless you are going a long time on your oil, it really isn't needed.

I sent a sample of used Red Line with 5,700 on it to them last week. I should be hearing from them any day now and I'll post the result in the QR25DE subsection.


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## cysco00 (Mar 25, 2004)

Cool, I will give it a try!!

Thanx

Cisco C.


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## LI SilverSE-R (Jan 4, 2003)

<---mobil 1 5w30

sYntH4LiF3 y0


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## Bror Jace (Apr 26, 2003)

Guys, here's an example of a synthetic blend seeming to out-perform a full synthetic (my QR25DE motor):

http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?p=674518&posted=1#post674518

However, the synthetic was used in the winter and had compromised air filtration letting in sand (silica) and road salt (sodium). Not exactly a fair comparison but the $3 per quart synthetic blend provided great results for 5,000 miles.


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