# Sticky on Sentra Lowering Springs!



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

A question that comes up every day thats annoying is lowering springs for the B13 and B14 Sentras.

These cars have very little wheel travel and cannot be lowered more than 1-1.5" without badly affecting the ride and handling. H&R spring are way too low and too soft, so are Eibach sportlines and even the less low prokits.

Get these only if you are into looks, the car will ride the snubbers in a turn and handle poorly. B14's have so little rear wheel travel that they will ride very bad as well. This is a rice mod.

The only lowering springs that are any good for B13 and B14's are the hypercos and they must be teamed up with a decent shock like a KYB AGX. They have decent spring rates and will really turn your car into a G machine.

Eibachs and H&R's will work well only when using Motivationals shortend struts and shocks for conventional shaped springs with Motivational/koni foam bumpstops and the Motivational rear shock mount for B14's. These will let you get your wheel travel back and even give a real nice ride.

Anyone asking these question over and over can now get flamed!

Mike


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

what about tein s-tech or tein h tech?


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=4384

read around a little please.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

chimmike said:


> http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=4384
> 
> read around a little please.


This doesn't help, the s. tech and h. tech are not coilovers, they are just lowering springs.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

tein s.tech springs have the following spring rates.

fr- 168 lbs
rr- 280 lbs

Eibach prokit

fr- 137/228
rr- 114/240

sportline
189
117/228

I haven't found the H&R spring rates yet.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I mentioned earlier that I don't think Tein springs and GR-2's are a good setup. I could be wrong because my research shows that Tein s.tech are meant to work with stock shocks.

Tein s.tech are 170lbs up front, 280lbs in back
Tein h.tech are 190lbs in front, 250lbs in back


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> I could be wrong because my research shows that Tein s.tech are meant to work with stock shocks.


This seems to be the cause of a lot of confusion. When Tein says that they're meant to work with stock dampers, it means that they will fit struts that have the same dimensions and mounting points as the stock dampers. It's a combination of them mistranslating from the original Japanese label and them not explaining things thoroughly enough in English.

The similar goes with Eibach. If you read the German manuals, they indicate that their drop springs are built to work with _some_ cars' stock dampers, but not all (it specifies "not all"). They also caution the buyer that they should check with either the dealer or Eibach to ensure that the stock dampers can be safely retained.

Yes. It helps to be born into a family where the primary language is Japanese and your father is a quadralingual nut.


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## ryan (Apr 24, 2004)

I have the Tokico package on my 93 E. They are the blue ones that come with both springs and shocks. They rock. I had them on my car for 4 years now. I also had some 17 Inch ADR's (205/40/17) and they rubbed a little bit but it wasn't too bad. It's hard to believe the H&R's are too soft and low. H&R's are the best spring on the market.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

ryan said:


> I have the Tokico package on my 93 E. They are the blue ones that come with both springs and shocks. They rock. I had them on my car for 4 years now. I also had some 17 Inch ADR's (205/40/17) and they rubbed a little bit but it wasn't too bad. It's hard to believe the H&R's are too soft and low. H&R's are the best spring on the market.


Put your car on a skidpad (or find a big open parking lot in the middle of nowhere and make one), and you'll find out exactly what everyone's talking about.


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## mrRICEguy (Jan 1, 2004)

ryan said:


> I have the Tokico package on my 93 E. They are the blue ones that come with both springs and shocks. They rock. I had them on my car for 4 years now. I also had some 17 Inch ADR's (205/40/17) and they rubbed a little bit but it wasn't too bad. It's hard to believe the H&R's are too soft and low. H&R's are the best spring on the market.


i had them on my b14 and they were shitty......no offense to those that have em....so i got the tien basics set up and the ride is smooth and i lowered it 3 inches in the front and 2.25 inches in the back....if ur gonna lower your b13 or b14, better do it the right way the first time...it'll save u money and be a lot safer on the road....


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## huskya83 (Apr 20, 2004)

i'm going to lower my car, once i put on my 17in. only cuz i don't want that big gap and I don't want to have the front of my car look higher than the back.

The tein basics look like a good idea, what esle would i need.. i read around, and am still unsure on what to do.

b14 sentra gxe


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

huskya83 said:


> what esle would i need.. i read around, and am still unsure on what to do.



read the stickies...don't just post in them.


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## Ricer_X_01 (Aug 21, 2004)

i see the brands and spring rates, but i dont see how much each lowers the center of gravity by. anybody know off hand how much each spring lowers the car front and back?


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## az3098 (Sep 13, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> A question that comes up every day thats annoying is lowering springs for the B13 and B14 Sentras.
> 
> These cars have very little wheel travel and cannot be lowered more than 1-1.5" without badly affecting the ride and handling. H&R spring are way too low and too soft, so are Eibach sportlines and even the less low prokits.
> 
> ...


This may be a stupid question but what's the difference between a lowering spring and a coilover?


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## Token Moron (Mar 28, 2003)

az3098 said:


> This may be a stupid question but what's the difference between a lowering spring and a coilover?



do a search on this one because this question is really easy.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

az3098 said:


> This may be a stupid question but what's the difference between a lowering spring and a coilover?


By "lowering springs" we mean springs which physically fit onto stock, stock replacement, or aftermarket strut/shocks which lower the height of the chassis relative to the ground.

"Coilovers" usually refers to a kit that includes a set of springs, a set of spring perches, and dampers (or a set of sleeves that will allow you to use your aftermarket strut/shock of choice), which gives you height adjustability.


On a side note, a "coil-over damper setup" is technically defined as any setup where the damper is placed inside the spring. This means that your stock suspension system or anything resembles it is a "coil-over damper setup". Also note that I used the terms "strut/shock" and "damper" in the above paragraphs. Technically, "struts" and "shocks" are all dampers. I just used different terms to emphasize that there is a difference between an aftermarket strut/shock meant for stock or lowering springs (like the KYB AGX's) and a height-adjustable "coilover" damper (like the dampers used in the Tein SS kit).


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

*Megan Racing*

Megan racing has lowering springs which give a 2" drop in front and 1.85" drop in rear.

The spring rates are 280lbs in front and 230lbs in rear.

Would these work with stock shocks or do aftermarket shocks need to be bought?

Would I need a camber kit with this?


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Well i installed Megan racing springs with Tokico Hp's on new years eve and what a hell of alot of difference it made.

Feel :

The car is completely flat through turns, there is only a hint of understeer when rocketting into turns and this will be sorted out once i get a camber kit.
The ride is a LITTLE (i have to stress how minute this is) bouncy, but i figure i need to give the springs time to settle. 

Look:

Gone is the disgusting gap in the wheel well, even with my 15's there is very little space in the front and there is absolutely no space in the back, and this is with 195/50/15's on. Arguably though the back is dropped too low cause there is really no gap at all left above the wheel while there is still a little in the front.


All in all everything came up to about $350 and its greeeeeeeat value for money.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

skets said:


> The ride is a LITTLE (i have to stress how minute this is) bouncy, but i figure i need to give the springs time to settle.


A word of warning, this could get better _or_ worse. The reason is because it isn't the springs that "settle". Unless they're very poorly made or you change the physical properties of them, springs do not lose spring rate over time (although they will lose free length). It's the dampers that break in. This means that two things could happen:

The first is that your setup is currently overdamped (damping rates too high for the springs), and that the dampers need to "soften up" a little to match the springs. This is the situation that people usually experience with fully adjustable coilover setups, and this is what you want to happen.

The second is that your setup is actually underdamped (damping rates too low for the springs). When your dampers break in, they will become even "softer" and the bouncing will get worse. This is what happens when people put drop springs on OE replacement dampers. You do not want this to happen.

I'm not going to make any predictions on your particular setup, but I'm going to put that warning out beforehand just so no one jumps to any conclusions.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm thinking of the H.tech setup with kyb GR2' or tokico shocks.

I like the lowering height. 1.7 in front and 0.6 in rear.

the 190 lb ft in front seem soft but the 250 in back seem fine.

I'm thinking of choosing these over megan racing sincee the lowered height is more conservative.

any predictions?

I'f I could afford tein BASICS I would buy them. But by time shipping and duty get tagged on, the price would fully get bumped up to over $1200.

Jamaicas duty is 45% on car parts then their is tax and weight penalties.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Hey cuz,

Funnilly enough the car has settled alot, the ride is a lot less rough since you took it for that blast around campus last night, i can actually drive on my road and not wince anymore ...  

I really do think the springs just needed some time to settle. For that matter everytime i get in the car and drive it feels better, then again, maybe i'm just getting used to the roughness. who knows??


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

you're getting used to it, and getting used to your shocks crapping out on you.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

I'd like to drive it again. I think even stiffer shocks would be better like kyb AGX, KYB SR or KYB a-just.

Just my opinion. 

What I don't get is that the springs are almost the same rate as hyperco...hyperco(300f, 200r), megan racing(280f, 230r) which still feel soft to me. While Tein s.tech(170f, 280r) and tein h.tech(190f, 250r).

Why are Teins so soft. I spoke to a suspension expert and he said every manufacturer has different philosophies on suspension tuning. He said soft suspensions provide the best adhesion to the road no holds barred, however the body roll that results disturbs the dynamics of the car when negotiating a series of turns. This is why stiffer springs are better for autocros, to handle the transition from one turn into the next. He went further to say that, with soft springs, stiff shocks are needed to handle daily driving and a bit of sportiness. 

Cuz as we saw last night, when we tested Mikey's suspension which was stock springs with stiff shocks. The car didn't budge. Any how, stiff springs/soft shocks (bouncy), soft springs/stiff shocks(a bit rough but better road holding), stiff springs/ stiff shocks (firm, rough, less adhesion but more control due to predictability).

I like the h.tech drop but the rates are soft, so I will have to combine it with something stiff to prevent bottoming out and other issues.

Tein BASICS sounding more attractive...but damn the price.

Get stiffer shocks cuz, unless the shocks are really settling. But give it 2 weeks and see, after all these american dudes don't know how bad our roads are. I know they have bad roads, but I wish we had roads full stop. Your road alone is a pogo stick with stock suspension.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

I agree cuz, i really do need some stiffer shocks.. oh well there goes being cheap 

I will replace the two back shocks with kyb agx's at months end.. i cant afford teh front ones right now but that will be the next change. BTW i took a deep left corner last night (top of knutsford blvd) doing what felt like 70-80 mph and the car had an insane amount of understeer... i ended up having to turn the steering wheel side to side while i punched the gas to get the back to rotate..... is that weird or what? 

BTW i did not feel/hear the car bottom out...


could this be the reason why the teins are so soft (at least the fronts), could it be that tein is making every effort possible to make the car oversteer instead of understeer. Maybe you should get the teins, then we can make a comparison.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

what about using KYB ultra SR?


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

skets said:


> BTW i did not feel/hear the car bottom out...


It's normally very difficult to feel/hear the car bottom out on the street if you've never been exposed to it in a controlled environment first. If think your dampers could be bottoming out, try taking out the rear seats and going for a test drive. This will allow more of the noises emitted by your suspension system to come into the cabin, so if any of your dampers are bottoming, you _will_ hear it. I don't reccomend driving around like that all the time though. It gets annoying pretty quickly.



skets said:


> could this be the reason why the teins are so soft (at least the fronts), could it be that tein is making every effort possible to make the car oversteer instead of understeer. Maybe you should get the teins, then we can make a comparison.


Late last year, I pinned down a Tein engineer and grilled him for a few weeks via email (he must hate me now). He cited two main reasons for the softer front springs in the lowering springs for the B14 Sentra. The first was that they wanted to maintain front end compliance over irregular surfaces and bumps (grooved pavement, wavy pavement, etc) and to try to maintain ride comfort during sudden elevation changes (rough transitions, potholes, speed bumps). 

The second reason he gave was much more interesting. Apparently, when they tested the stock springs on their reference cars, they found that with only a few milimeters of defletion after the rear springs were preloaded (preload = the total sprung weight of the rear end up the car), the stock rear springs (which are progressive) become significantly stiffer than the stock front springs (which are linear rate). When I asked why the coilover setups weren't put together with stiffer rear springs, he replied that increasing the spring rate further caused the rear end to break out too often during testing.

I'm not sure if that's the company's "official" position on that, but that's what I got out of them.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

thanks for the suggestion, i'm taking a drive to the country this weekend so i will try taking out the seats then...

As for you explanation of the teins spring rates, that makes a whole lotta sense. I will definately push Shift_O_L to buy the teins then... then we can make a real comparison of the two setups.

BTW based on what i read in Kojima's articles on sentra.net; stiffening the rear of your car is the best way to counter understeer , however i have a friend with an AE110 supercharged levin and he is running stock springs (which are pretty soft) with KYB agx in the front set to stiff and kyb gr2's in the back. The thing is his car oversteers all the time, even the slightest corner and his car oversteers. Doesnt this go against the reasonings in Kojima's article?

I ask because right now i can only afford to buy a pair of adjustable shocks and based on Mikes article i should buy the pair for the back and set those to stiff to get rid of some understeer, but based on what i see in real life it would make sense to buy the front ones. Please explain what is happening with my friends car.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

skets said:


> BTW based on what i read in Kojima's articles on sentra.net; stiffening the rear of your car is the best way to counter understeer , however i have a friend with an AE110 supercharged levin and he is running stock springs (which are pretty soft) with KYB agx in the front set to stiff and kyb gr2's in the back. The thing is his car oversteers all the time, even the slightest corner and his car oversteers. Doesnt this go against the reasonings in Kojima's article?


I'm not sure why this would go against the logic presented in Mr. Kojima's article. Which part are you referring to (I don't see anything about using stiffer damper rates in the rear to counter understeer)?

There are a lot of factors that could be involved in why the car oversteers. I'd go and recheck the tyre pressures, tyre tread, alignment, the condition of the dampers, and the other usual suspects before looking at the damper settings.

I'll tell you right now though, sticking two different sets of dampers on the front and rear of a street car is not a great idea, especially if they aren't independently adjustable in rebound and compression (AGX's and GR2's are not). Not only will you get unpredictable damping characteristics which you won't be able to compensate for, but you will get different wear characteristics (one end wearing out faster than the other), which will annoy and confuse you in the future.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Is this for the Tein s.techs, or h.tech....or does it apply to both?

I want the H.tech because of the mild drop. I refuse to believe that the b14 can take the 2.4 drop without bottoming out. What's your take? S.tech or h.tech for my money?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

ReVerm said:


> It's normally very difficult to feel/hear the car bottom out on the street if you've never been exposed to it in a controlled environment first. If think your dampers could be bottoming out, try taking out the rear seats and going for a test drive. This will allow more of the noises emitted by your suspension system to come into the cabin, so if any of your dampers are bottoming, you _will_ hear it. I don't reccomend driving around like that all the time though. It gets annoying pretty quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When a car leans over in a turn and it will with soft lowering springs and no travel like sentra's have, the front bumpstops will bottom out giving an infinate front spring rate and total grinding understeer. A car set up by me will absolutly smoke a rice lowered car on the track or in an autocrss any day. All of the street lowering springs on the market except for hypercos will do this.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

skets said:


> thanks for the suggestion, i'm taking a drive to the country this weekend so i will try taking out the seats then...
> 
> As for you explanation of the teins spring rates, that makes a whole lotta sense. I will definately push Shift_O_L to buy the teins then... then we can make a real comparison of the two setups.
> 
> ...


Either three things are probably happening, the rear suspension is bottoming under roll, the tire pressures are way off or the rear suspension is misaligned and the tires are toeing out.

Shocks don't change the ratio of understeer to oversteer, they control the rate of weight transfer and how rapidly understeer or oversteer, whatever the cars natural balance is sets in.

Your friends car should not set the front shocks to full stiff with stock springs.


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## black_ser95 (Mar 19, 2004)

what about intrax springs?


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## Partyboy25 (Jan 27, 2005)

Ok, all i want to do is get rid of the huge front fender gap. What should I do? (The gap looks HUGE with 17s...)


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## Ricer_X_01 (Aug 21, 2004)

buy coilovers and crush it!


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## manny183 (Aug 21, 2003)

ok besides the price being a major concern what about those tein ss coilover kit or even basics? are they worth the money invested in them??? how will it be for everyday use(potholes, bumps...etc)????


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

yes, they're coilovers with matching dampers.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

manny183 said:


> ok besides the price being a major concern what about those tein ss coilover kit or even basics? are they worth the money invested in them??? how will it be for everyday use(potholes, bumps...etc)????


Both Tein SS and BASIC kits are well worth the money for street use. I do however, think the default spring rates for the B14 are a bit high for really rough roads. If you drive on really bad roads (lots of bumps/potholes/gravel/wavy road), I would actually reccomend getting either kit with 1kg(f)/mm (~55lb(f)/in) softer springs. It does cost a bit of extra money (and you won't be able to lower the car quite as much), but I think you'll be a lot happier with the ride comfort and stability over bumpy roads.


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## black_ser95 (Mar 19, 2004)

black_ser95 said:


> what about intrax springs?




anyone? :thumbup:


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

intrax drop too much, will blow the stock dampers fast and most likely aftermarket dampers pretty quick too.


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## aftershock141 (May 18, 2004)

So with the Tein Basic kit do you still need to buy shocks then or what? Sorry I'm new to this.


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## Ricer_X_01 (Aug 21, 2004)

aftershock141 said:


> So with the Tein Basic kit do you still need to buy shocks then or what? Sorry I'm new to this.


nope they're all in one. you will have to use your mounts thought.


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## aftershock141 (May 18, 2004)

Will my mounts be able to work well with it, and how much lower do you think the basics will make my car...all I can find is 2.72" in front and 1.81" in rear off the Tein website...but I'm not sure if I'm reading it right I don't know what most of the stuff means.

Thanks.


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## Ricer_X_01 (Aug 21, 2004)

yes you will be able to use your existing mounts. as for the drop on the teins, im not quite sure. however, you should be more than happy with the drop they'll give you. 


Jim


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## Nismo_Joe (Feb 23, 2005)

I've done a few searches, and read this thread over twice. I didn't want to start another thread, but I just want a simple answer to an uber specific question. I got ahold of a set of Eibach pro-kits with stock bump stops off an NX2000 that are mint for $100. Ignoring my struts completely (I understand I need to run agx's or equivalent), am I going to encounter the debilitating handling b14's suffer from? It's just mind boggling that such an over-engineered platform as awsome as ours can do diddly without much less than full coilovers.

I just want to reduce the massive wheel gap and improve handling.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Nismo_Joe said:


> I've done a few searches, and read this thread over twice. I didn't want to start another thread, but I just want a simple answer to an uber specific question. I got ahold of a set of Eibach pro-kits with stock bump stops off an NX2000 that are mint for $100. Ignoring my struts completely (I understand I need to run agx's or equivalent), am I going to encounter the debilitating handling b14's suffer from? It's just mind boggling that such an over-engineered platform as awsome as ours can do diddly without much less than full coilovers.
> 
> I just want to reduce the massive wheel gap and improve handling.


You're going to encounter similar travel problems with the B13/NX too.

I donno about the over-engineered part though. Macpherson strut suspension systems give up a lot for the sake of simplicity, and in many modern implementations it's become a compromise between chassis rigidity, damper travel, and reliability under continued stress (amongst other things). Chances are, it was a conscious decision by Nissan's suspension designers to sacrifice damper travel in favor of other factors.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

ReVerm said:


> You're going to encounter similar travel problems with the B13/NX too.
> 
> I donno about the over-engineered part though. Macpherson strut suspension systems give up a lot for the sake of simplicity, and in many modern implementations it's become a compromise between chassis rigidity, damper travel, and reliability under continued stress (amongst other things). Chances are, it was a conscious decision by Nissan's suspension designers to sacrifice damper travel in favor of other factors.


greez, sometimes I wonder why people just don't seem to get it and why this thread is so long. All Sentra lowering springs for the B13/B14 with the exception of the Hypercoils are too soft and too low for good cornering performance. In addtion to a lack of travel, Sentra's have poor front end geometry and lowering a lot simply makes it worse.

If you disagree, then frankly you are not a good enough driver to tell and you are not driving hard enough to tell. I hate to be harsh about it but thats the truth. One short trip to the track or autocross against Sentras that are prepped correctly will find you being left in the dust. Lack of lean in a turn and faster trasient response to steering input doesnt mean your car handles well. Lowering springs and shocks fool people into belive that their cars handle well this way. Lap times, slalom times and skidpad numbers will tell you otherwise.

If you just want to close up the fender gap, etc and don't care about performance then a high quality lowering type spring like Eibach will work to help get the car lower. The car will handle like crap and personaly I think thats ricey but, hey if thats what you want.... A short body strut like a Motivational works wonders with these springs, especialy the Sportline.

Tien basics or SS have shorter bodies and work well due to the extra wheel travel.

I can't belive how this thread keeps going because people don't like to hear what they don't WANT to hear.


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## black_ser95 (Mar 19, 2004)

i have a question, which will be better for my b14 ? i have agx's

tien s tech springs
GC coil overs


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## snipher (May 2, 2005)

*Newbie :Need help with lowering my b14 98 S.E*
















I need help with lowering my car ,i am new on this forum so excuse my mistakes or may be someone has already asked this question before. I have searched around alot but still getting confused as i read more and more. Am thinking about getting some tein s tech lowerings springs item details are 2.4F(168lbs/inch) 1.1R (280lbs/inch) ,with either KYB AGX/KYB GR-2 shocks which ever one is good.Heres a pic of my car en i hate that gap in the front.U think i can use the tein basics with stock shocks may b not?? You guys think this can be a good set up?


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## black_ser95 (Mar 19, 2004)

^^ as far as shocks/struts get the AGX, the Gr2's are stock replacment's


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## black_ser95 (Mar 19, 2004)

Hyperco's have 20 more sets, i know which ones to get now :cheers:


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

snipher said:


> I need help with lowering my car ,i am new on this forum so excuse my mistakes or may be someone has already asked this question before. I have searched around alot but still getting confused as i read more and more. Am thinking about getting some tein s tech lowerings springs item details are 2.4F(168lbs/inch) 1.1R (280lbs/inch) ,with either KYB AGX/KYB GR-2 shocks which ever one is good.Heres a pic of my car en i hate that gap in the front.U think i can use the tein basics with stock shocks may b not?? You guys think this can be a good set up?


If you lower you car do the following
AGX and Hyperco's
Tein Basics COILOVERS
AGX and Ground Control adj sleeves with Eiback ERS

Those are your ONLY 3 choices if you want a car that can handle worth a damn.

How much money do you have to spend?


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## snipher (May 2, 2005)

*How much i have???*



onyxeros said:


> If you lower you car do the following
> AGX and Hyperco's
> Tein Basics COILOVERS
> AGX and Ground Control adj sleeves with Eiback ERS
> ...


 Am thinking @ least $800 is what i want to spend so far,dont know if i can get something good for that price?? How much do u think i need 2 set aside for a good set up?


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

snipher said:


> Am thinking @ least $800 is what i want to spend so far,dont know if i can get something good for that price?? How much do u think i need 2 set aside for a good set up?


Tein basics from HPautoworks


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## snipher (May 2, 2005)

onyxeros said:


> Tein basics from HPautoworks


 Whats that is it a website or what? Also where's the cheapest place i can get KYB AGX ? MOst places i been its like $400 and above..


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## black_ser95 (Mar 19, 2004)

Are B&G lowering springs good ?


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

http://www.hpautoworks.com




flamer_pink_ser95 said:


> Are B&G lowering springs good ?


No
I gave you your options above there are no others


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## snipher (May 2, 2005)

*kyb agx's*



flamer_pink_ser95 said:


> Are B&G lowering springs good ?


.
HEy am looking to get some kyb agx's,hit me up on my messenger.


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?p=1082801#post1082801

My new setup review


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Are there any coil spring spacers available for the b14 suspension?


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> Tien basics or SS have shorter bodies and work well due to the extra wheel travel.


tein basics feel like re-warmed shit on a stick

and i'm not speaking out of my ass i've driven and been driven in my friends '99 pulsar vzr thats been fitted with tein basics ... 

for that matter my old car a 93 (ae101) supercharged toyota levin gtz handled waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better even with its alignment completely out, the power steering shot and the two front shocks completely dead.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

btw i have not really seen any proper reviews by anyone on how the tein h-tech springs handle .. for that matter has anyone purchased the ones from japan?

why i ask is a friend of mine with pretty strong connections in japan say that the medium or hard tein h-techs (they are labelled hard/medium/soft from tein japan) are the recomended 'springs' for our cars .. which is totally contradictory to my understanding of which springs should work properly on our cars based on spring rates. Does anyone have any comments on this ?? 

i.e. real world experience and not just "mike and reverm say they cant work"


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

skets said:


> btw i have not really seen any proper reviews by anyone on how the tein h-tech springs handle .. for that matter has anyone purchased the ones from japan?
> 
> why i ask is a friend of mine with pretty strong connections in japan say that the medium or hard tein h-techs (they are labelled hard/medium/soft from tein japan) are the recomended 'springs' for our cars .. which is totally contradictory to my understanding of which springs should work properly on our cars based on spring rates. Does anyone have any comments on this ??
> 
> i.e. real world experience and not just "mike and reverm say they cant work"


Haha. Don't lop me in with Mike K. He's an engineer. I'm just some lazy guy. 

I'm actually not sure what you mean by "contradictory to [your] understanding of which springs should work properly on our cars". Can you explain your reasoning a bit more?


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

well for the drop (1.5") the spring rate of the tein h-tech are pretty low as in teh fronts are not even 250 and they are progressive rate springs .. and all the info i've seen here indicates that you need a rate closer to 300. So i find it strange that these springs work so well.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> btw i have not really seen any proper reviews by anyone on how the tein h-tech springs handle .. for that matter has anyone purchased the ones from japan?
> 
> why i ask is a friend of mine with pretty strong connections in japan say that the medium or hard tein h-techs (they are labelled hard/medium/soft from tein japan) are the recomended 'springs' for our cars .. which is totally contradictory to my understanding of which springs should work properly on our cars based on spring rates. Does anyone have any comments on this ??
> 
> i.e. real world experience and not just "mike and reverm say they cant work"


If your basing it on what you think the psring rates are supposed to be, what are the rates of the medium springs? Hard to have a thought without that data.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> well for the drop (1.5") the spring rate of the tein h-tech are pretty low as in teh fronts are not even 250 and they are progressive rate springs .. and all the info i've seen here indicates that you need a rate closer to 300. So i find it strange that these springs work so well.


Well for what? Because they are not 300 does not mean they don't work pretty well, or work on the car at all. ALthough it is proven that a rate closer to 300-350 is going to be better suited in performance apps. when paired with the right psring shock combo. For someone who is not out for maximum performance they may be just fine...


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

What you say then is the most i can push the envelope in terms of drop if i'm not concerned about best performance .. and in that case what would be an aproprate spring rate .. why i ask is my friends lucino ss .. (sentra 200sx se-r) doesnt bottom on his sportline-agx setup but he really doesnt push his car that hard .. is this setup acceptable if your not trying to race every evolution and tyoe r you see?


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

skets said:


> What you say then is the most i can push the envelope in terms of drop if i'm not concerned about best performance .. and in that case what would be an aproprate spring rate .. why i ask is my friends lucino ss .. (sentra 200sx se-r) doesnt bottom on his sportline-agx setup but he really doesnt push his car that hard .. is this setup acceptable if your not trying to race every evolution and tyoe r you see?


If you do the sportlines, at the very least get the Koni bump stops and the ME rear upper mounts to at least restore some shock travel. 

Because he doesn't bottom out crawling arouns the streets honestly doesn't mean that he won't. You do what you want just know that our cars have little suspension travel, so if you take it away you shold do what you can to restore as much of it as you can.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

well i'm saving for a full coilover setup .. i've done the cheap suspension setup and i'm not trying to do it again.. but i do drive pretty hard so i cant afford to be driving on a bullsh*t setup. The thing is though, i have lots of friends who dont drive that hard but they would like to get rid of even a little of teh disgusting front fender gap without having to sell their first born .. in which case what springs do i tell them to get?

tein/eibach/megan/....

***the shocks to be used would be kyb AGX's


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

cheap wise megan with spacers to lift it a bit and regain travel.

but any can work once the suspension is raised to meet the 1" drop requirement.

integra type R's are lighter than our cars, but all the same, the weight isn't that dramatic and they use 250 front and back. However, you can't take this completely at face value becuase their geometries are different.

At the same time, 250 might not be so bad considering the integrity of our roads. 300 might suit autocross more, but the ripples, potholes, bumps and any imperfection constantly seen on our mountain pass corners, might be better maneuvered with a 1" drop with softer 250lb rate springs and matching shock damping.

remember the stock spring rates are 112 fr and 100 rr so 250 is doing much better.

You can wait till megan makes struts. They said they were gonna work on it. I specifically told them to make them shortened, and I forwarded info from this site and sentra.net to aid in their research.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

skets said:


> well for the drop (1.5") the spring rate of the tein h-tech are pretty low as in teh fronts are not even 250 and they are progressive rate springs .. and all the info i've seen here indicates that you need a rate closer to 300. So i find it strange that these springs work so well.


I think the issue here is really that people don't know how "drop" correlates to the probability of bottoming out, and you're tired of having to guess. If that's the case, I have a general rule of thumb that I sometimes use for maintaining sufficient travel in street cars. Here's how it works:

As you know, springs compress when you apply load to them. The more load you apply, the more a spring compresses. With a linear rate spring, the amount the spring compresses relates directly to the amount of load you apply to it. Here's the relationship between all of those factors with a linear rate spring:

(Applied Load) / (Spring Rate) = (Distance the spring compresses).

So if you know the spring rate of the stock springs and the amount of travel the stock suspension has when the car is parked, you can calculate the amount of load that one corner of your car can handle without bottoming out:

[Amount of load you can apply] / [Stock Spring Rate] = [Stock Damper Travel]
_or:_
[Amount of load you can apply] = [Stock Damper Travel] * [Stock Spring Rate].

For example, if I know that my stock front dampers have 3.75 in of travel and that my front springs have a spring rate of around 125 lb(f)/in, I can stick that into the above formula and figure out that I can put a maximum of 468.75 lb(f) of load onto that corner before it bottoms out:

[Amount of load I can apply to one stock front damper] = 3.75 in * 125 lb(f)/in = 468.75 lb(f).

Now, what I like to do is to *try to keep the maximum amount of load I can apply the same before and after lowering springs are installed* (<< this is my rule of thumb). 

If you buy lowering springs and put them on non-shortened dampers, you know exactly how much it's going to reduce your travel by (the amount of "drop" advertised = amount of travel you're going to lose). So you subtract that amount from the stock damper travel, and come up with a similar formula for after you install lowering springs:

[Amount of load I can apply to one stock front damper] = ([Stock Damper Travel] - [The Advertised "Drop"] ) * [Minimum Spring Rate of the New Spring].
_or:_ 
[Minimum Spring Rate of the New Spring] = [Amount of load I can apply to one stock front damper] / ([Stock Damper Travel] - [The Advertised "Drop"]).

This formula will tell you what the spring rate of the lowering spring needs to be in order for you to keep the same maximum load capacity on that corner of your car.

Say that I want to lower the car in the example above 2" with KYB AGX's (non-shortened aftermarket dampers). If we plug in the numbers, we get this:

[Minimum Spring Rate of the New Spring] = (468.75 lb(f)/in)/(3.75 in - 2 in)
[Minimum Spring Rate of the New Spring] = (468.75 lb(f)/in)/(1.75 in)
[Minimum Spring Rate of the New Spring] = 267.85 lb(f)/in

This tells us that in order to lower the front of the car 2" and still maintain the same maximum load capacity as stock, we'd need to make the spring rate of the lowering spring at least 268 lb(f)/in.

Now I'm going to warn you by saying that the above will only give you a _conservative estimate_ of how stiff your lowering springs need to be to avoid constant bottoming out. Factors like the increased compression damping you get with aftermarket dampers and the decrease in load transfer associated with stiffer springs will all affect the actual outcome and throw off the estimate by some amount. The only reason I'm posting this is because it's a very simple formula that people can apply when they're choosing lowering springs, and the numbers it produces will always be _conservative estimates_. If you follow this rule when choosing linear rate lowering springs, you should not encounter severe bottoming problems.

That's my rule of thumb. I hope it helped a little and not just confused a lot.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

skets said:


> tein basics feel like re-warmed shit on a stick
> 
> and i'm not speaking out of my ass i've driven and been driven in my friends '99 pulsar vzr thats been fitted with tein basics ...
> 
> for that matter my old car a 93 (ae101) supercharged toyota levin gtz handled waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better even with its alignment completely out, the power steering shot and the two front shocks completely dead.


You are speaking out of your ass.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> You are speaking out of your ass.


now why would you say that ?? i have driven a pulsar vzr with tein basics and another pulsar vzr with terin ss's

i gave my opinion of the ride quality and performance in relation to a specific car .. so how the f*ck am i speaking out of my ass?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

skets said:


> now why would you say that ?? i have driven a pulsar vzr with tein basics and another pulsar vzr with terin ss's
> 
> i gave my opinion of the ride quality and performance in relation to a specific car .. so how the f*ck am i speaking out of my ass?


Because either the Toyota is not as messed up as you say it is or something is seriously wrong with the other car.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> Because either the Toyota is not as messed up as you say it is or something is seriously wrong with the other car.


lol, okay i understand where your coming from. What you should understand is that the levin GTZ is not only a beautifully handling car from the factory but it comes with super-strut (ss) suspension which makes the car much more neutral than the sentra ... 

dont ask me how the ss works cause because while i've had it explained to me i'm but i'm still not quite certain how it works and i cant find any information on the net thats in any language but japanese. 

A local toyota tuner gave me a description but what i got from it was that; the car has something like three/four contol arms per side and the effect is that in corners the front of the car stays flat ... he compared it to how with mcpherson struts works i.e. while with ms the wheels cambers under heavy load with ss the wheels stay flat.

The effect is that when you accelerate in corners the levin tends to oversteer.

just search around for info on the AE101 levin GTZ .. its a beautiful car and i'm sorry you guys never got it in the states.


so yes the car was as f*cked up as i said it was but its naturally a much better handling car.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

btw thanks reverm for that formula.. its will certainly help alot.


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## Alistairb (Jul 22, 2004)

How does the advice on springs/dampers on the b13 relate to the N14 chassis?

Is the rear suspension travel the same?

For the moderator: Is it okay to post N14 questions in the B13 forum? My understanding is that the suspesions are similar.

Thanks for tolerating a NOOB!


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

skets I have to disagree with you on the handling of the tein basic. They are not that bad. I drove the car and it handles extremely well. The only issue is that it is a bit bouncy diminishing confidence in high speed corner on roads, with ripples or bumps. The only time it feels harsh is when travelling on a really bumpy road. It starts to hop like a pogo stick, but never feels as bad as crappy coilovers or lowering springs. 

I will admit, the levin feels twice as good despite the shocks. But I really doubt the shocks were as bad as you say. Even bad shocks can still have use.

Leave the Tein Basics alone, I think they aredecent for a basic kit. The Tein SS feels beutiful to me.


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

u basically said all i was trying to say

smooth road they are nice
anything else they feel like sh*t

which is why i advise anyone that lives anywhere that has roads even half as bad as ours to buy the ss's if they have the money. Would you agree or not?


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## skets (Jun 17, 2004)

Folkes i apologize for my behavior,

Reverm, thanks again for teh formula and Shift_of_legend thanks for working me through it ... i just fully realized how whole inadequate almost all the lowering springs on the market are.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Alistairb said:


> How does the advice on springs/dampers on the b13 relate to the N14 chassis?
> 
> Is the rear suspension travel the same?


If that's the same Nissan Sabre I'm thinking of, yes, it uses the same dampers and has the same travel issues with the rear suspension.


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## snipher (May 2, 2005)

I was on my way to work today and i saw this eclipse coming from behind,it looked really nice and lowered .But i noticed something as it passed by ,it was bouncing like a yoyo and i told my self i dont want my car to be like that when i lower it.Reading this thread i guess i will go with the tein basics ,i hope i wont have any major problems.I Was going to put some tein s lowering springs but i will stick to the basics.


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

skets said:


> Folkes i apologize for my behavior,
> 
> Reverm, thanks again for teh formula and Shift_of_legend thanks for working me through it ... i just fully realized how whole inadequate almost all the lowering springs on the market are.



The formula made me realise that 300 / 250 spring rates are correct for a 1" lowering of the b14 chassis like Mike has formulated.

When I did the calculation for 2", the spring rates are ridiculous. talking about at least 450/350 ideal 500/400.

Finding shocks for that is going to be expensive, and the stiff ride couldn't be udeful on streets.

Tein BASIC, Hyperco and so on are simply the only budget route to take.

I'm not even sure if coil spacers would work to raise other lowering springs to improve travel because our springs aren't flat and springs spacers generally require springs with flat ends..


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## unijabnx2000 (May 19, 2004)

what do you suggest with the ksport pro coilovers?
spring rates front:7/392
rear:5/280
I have the B13 chassis
Ksport USA - Performance Suspension - Contact Us


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## Hobogoku (Nov 9, 2007)

*So if I'm reading this right...*

So... I guess my decision on getting TEIN for my SE 2.0 doesn't sound like a bad idea... but if I'm going to also put in 18s on as well, will that drastically affect the whole understeering thing with the Sentra? there must be a way to fix that even if you only lower the car an inch or so. 

I am going to definately do more research. But people keep on posting because I'm in the process of finding the right suspension for my car and ultimately the best setup for all around driving (everyday, autocross, etc.)

oh, and even with just an inch lower, doesn't that do something? I mean, preformance wise?


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## Hobogoku (Nov 9, 2007)

Oh and another thing... I have an '01... which on the tein website they didn't seem to plot on the table... in that case I was looking at the options for the '02 SE-R... feel free to correct any and all mistakes I make... I'm still learning all the specs I can pull off.


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