# What do you think would be better in my car...



## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

Here's my problem. Im gettin a new system, but I told one of my friends about it and he wanted to trade some of his stuff for my two 12" RF Punch HX2's. He wants to give me 2 15" Punch HE's and a RF750s amp. If I do trade, I'm going to buy another 15 and put everything in the back seat. BUT if he doesn't (and Im kinda hopin he dont), Im sellin my HX2's and buying 4 12" Punch HE's. Here is my question...which do you think would sound the best? the 3 15's or the 4 12's. Im kinda not wanting the 15's. I never had them that big before and I like saying that I have 4 12's better. I had 2, 4, then eventually 8 12's in my Bronco and they broke my back glass when they were facing forward, so Im kinda partial to the 12 already. On of my friends with an old 90 Civic had 3-12s in it and it would pound the living hell out of you. Yet we put 4 12s in my friends VW Bug and it sounded like s**t. But I think it was the lack of airspace in the thing. Look at it like this...3-15s=45" and 4-12s=48". Not much difference in the surface area. With the 3-15's, Ill still have one channel left on on my amp, which kinda bugs me cuz I hate not to use it. I have a 2nd amp for my component systems and all 4 channels are being used. So I dont need it for anything else.
AAAAARRRGGGGGH! I need some suggestions...some of my friends say trade...it would be worth more...I dunno...what you guys think 3-15s or 4-12?


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2003)

3.14x6^2=113.04x4=452.16 (cone area for the 12's)

3.14x7.5^2=176.625x3=529.875 (cone area for the 15's)

given that the xmax's are the same for both subs then the 15's have a potential to get louder but its really all in the install. if it were me id sell the stuff ya got and buy one or two beasts of spl subs (sounds like ur goin all out spl).
check out names like

Treo SSX
Treo CSX
Kicker Solo X
Shocker Sig
Shocker Xtreme II
Shocker Super Xtreme
DD 9515
MTX RFL
MMATS Juggernaut
Cerwin Vega Stroker


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

well, i know all about the MMats lineup, I was going to drop about 2grand on the 15" competitions and the amps to go with them...but i bought my car before i got the chance. And I know that one of my boys beat out 4 15" strokers with 12-12" 200peak watt Fosgates in the back of his snugged dakota. he had 36 speakers total in it, 12 12s and the rest were mids and highs. he even ran all the 12s off one amp....and he still whooped the strokers. besides, i dont like the material they are made of.
I know that the DDs are daaaamn good. In one of my car audio mags they said one alone hit 170 something...you know that aint no sub to f**k with.
Im not goin for SPL in this one, I did spl comp in my Bronco and did pretty damn good considering i did it all myself. I just want a louder system. The way I have it now is, I got the two 12" HX2s runnin off my Punch 800a4 which is puttin out about 1050x2(bridged in mono @ 2ohms). Its loud, but it aint loud enough to suck the air out of my lungs at the level I want...so i aint happy. The only reason Im considering the 15s are because he's already got them and I dont have to wait or pay for shipping before I start on the box. I finally drew a box design for the 15"s that I like so Ill probably just stick to them, unless he backs out on the deal. BTW, thanks for the calculations, i didnt realize there was that much difference between the two.


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

I would go for the 15's. In the right box, they can be much louder. And play lower too if you wanted it. I would defenitely go for the 3 15's. How much money do you have to spend? You should check out www.caraudioforum.com if you want real suggestions, they will help you out much more than this nissan forum can.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2003)

yea, cone area is a deceptive little guy. what kinda enclosure r u considering for the 15's, ported im assuming?


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2003)

o yea, almost forgot, check out the A series from elemental designs www.edesignaudio.com. really good sq/spl driver, never heard it myself but havn't heard nething but good things bout it.


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

LethalAudio said:


> *12 12s and the rest were mids and highs. he even ran all the 12s off one amp....and he still whooped the strokers. *


One amp? I really doubt that could beat the 4 15' strokers. Did you meter them both, or by how they sounded? And 12 12"s, what the hell is that? Get like 4 Brahmas with the right amount of power, and it will tear them apart.

I also second the A series from ED, those things are beasts (from what ive heard/seen)


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2003)

yea its late and im tired so i kinda skimmed through that whole thing but seems a bit odd now that ya mention that. and the brahma's might be another driver to consider in your position.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

yea, he pulled them in his shop, he hit 165.3 and the suburban hit 161.8. But i s**t you not, he beat out 4 strokers...i wouldnt have believed him if i hadnt seen it for myself. Hell, I still have trouble believing it, it just doesnt make sense, but I cant really argue with a computer. The amp he was using was an old RF 650a5, i think its A5, I cant remember the old Fosgate names, it was about 5 or 6 years ago when he did it. 
The box will NOT be ported, im not a fan of ports...i just never liked them, besides with the space I have to work with, sealing is would be better i think cuz i have to keep this box level with the rear deck. And the money I have to spend will be whatever I get for my HX2s or whatever I get for the 750s he is going to trade me. I still need to work out the details on the box tomorrow, but as most boxes, its going to be the typical 3/4"MDF/Fiberglass enclosure. Nothing to fancy but not too simple.
Thanks for the input guys, Ill definately look into the other subs, it cant hurt to try other stuff.


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## wolf (Jun 23, 2003)

if it were me i would keep the hx2s. mainly because they are better quality subs. surface area matters very little considering you have a dvc sub now and would be trading for an svc. i am wondering why you wouldn't keep the hx2s and buy two more if you want 4 12's. that would a the very least give you more wiring options.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

i dont want another set of 1000watt subs cuz they draw too much power and I would have to buy another amp and another capacitor. I can get just as much from from the 4-400watt 12s or the 3-15. If I had alot of extra money to throw around, I would probably do it though, but the way my fourwheelers keep getting messed up, Ill be broke forever so I have to recycle my systems. Ive had the same 800a4 and Jensen 4150 since I started in car audio, and thats been a pretty long time. I did have another 800a4 but I sold it after I got rid of my 8-12" XLCs in my Bronco cuz I never needed it. Ive also had the same cd player and one of my component systems for since I started. And all this equipment has survive a baaad wreck I had when I hit a patch of ice and rolled my 200. It only damaged my right channel of my component system, but I came within a few hundred dollars of totaling my car. I like the stuff I have already and I only change a few things at one time. I like working with the stuff I already know. But I know what you mean about the quality change. I am very fond of the HX2s they are a damn good sub, but two 12s can only do so much and the older XLC is the same as the HEs I had and I only blew one of them the whole time I had that Bronco, but it was one of the first I had when I got into car audio...so it didnt surprise me. If I happen to blow a sub, it shouldnt cost that much to replace it, its last years sub and the new 2003s are on the market, so older models get sold for much much less.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2003)

how does the vc config play into spl? jus wonderin never heard of that b4. always thought it was directly related to xmax and surface area.

if ur lookin for some good, low power subs look into the K series from ed. im runnin a single 15K right now and i couldn't ask for any more.


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

LethalAudio said:


> *he hit 165.3 and the suburban hit 161.8. *


There is no way in hell that he pulled a 165.3 with 12 12's running of off ONE amp. That is insane, and its not the truth. What kind of mic was it? Was the shop professional? And where in the car did they measure it?


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## wolf (Jun 23, 2003)

Mercureie said:


> *how does the vc config play into spl? jus wonderin never heard of that b4. always thought it was directly related to xmax and surface area.
> *


there is no relation to vc config to spl outside of the wiring configuration. for example: if you have a dvc 2ohm the wiring configuration would be 1ohm or 4ohm. or 2ohm bi-amp. so say you have a mono amp that is stable to 1 ohm you would get the most power the amp can supply. volume is relative to power. no power no boom.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

Psch91 said:


> *There is no way in hell that he pulled a 165.3 with 12 12's running of off ONE amp. That is insane, and its not the truth. What kind of mic was it? Was the shop professional? And where in the car did they measure it? *


My other friend has 8-12" XLCs in his S-10 runnin off the 650...I dont really care if you believe me, I didnt come here to start lying about some system. But if you look at the specs on the 650, Im sure you will see that its fully capable of pushing all that. Rockford Fosgate Power 650 is what its called, just look it up...but dont expect to find one, they are the older amps are extremely rare. The shop is professional and its called Road Music and More. They measured the Dakota in the bed in between the walls. In the Suburban, it was placed about a foot in front of the box.


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

"325 watts x 4 channels @ 4 ohms"

That is what I came up with? If thats the case, I doubt it would make anything over 140. That is much too much of a high score.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

well, you really need the instruction booklet. My 800a4 is advertised at 100x4 but thats at a 4ohm load. [email protected], [email protected], but I have mine bridged into a mono 4 ohm load at 525x2. The old Punch subs were 100wattsRMS peak 200. That 650 was more than enough for the 12s. Believe me or not, I know what it did and im not out to impress anyone so i have no reason for lying. If you dont believe me, thats fine, but I would rather not keep arguing about it...im not lookin to start any grudges with anyone.


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## SentraStyleEMW (Aug 15, 2002)

LethalAudio said:


> *then eventually 8 12's in my Bronco and they broke my back glass when they were facing forward*


I very seriously doubt that 8 entry level fosgate subs (XLC series) could break your back window. You might have already had a cracked rear window and the pressure simply made it worse (appearing to break your back window) especially with that amount of power. I have a guy at work that has 6 15" Kicker Solo L7's running off of 3 Xtant X1001 amps and his back window has never shattered. So you are telling me that 8 measley little 12's will put out more SPL than 6 15" solo's? I don't think so...try again.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

dude i wasnt back there watchin it, all i know is that when i got there i didnt have a back window. It may have broken the support or something, but I didnt look in the tailgate. I drove straight to the glass shop and had it replaced cuz I wasnt going to go around with out a back glass with the system i had


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

Im not trying to argue with you, and I wont hold a grudge or nothing. Im just trying to set you straight. If it were that easy to get 160db+, then no one would be out buying super spl subs, with several amps pushing them, and spending so much money on bigger alternators, and amps and what not.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

I know it isnt that easy, thats why I was so amazed. But my friend aint been in the game for just a short time, hes been doin this for over 10 years, hes done things that would blow your mind, around here he is pretty much known as a Car Audio God. I would ask HIM about this stuff, but he's on a well deserved vacation at the beach with his family and the last thing I wanna do is bug him. Lol, every time he goes to the beach he does something extreme, thats where the 12-12"s came into play(but that was before he was married). This year he tricked out a golf cart with a mini system, hydros, and a few other things...that f**ker will hop like a rabbit on speed. Hell, Im on a 2 week vacation myself, but Im spending it tackling my atv and soundsystem problems...oh the fun....


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## wolf (Jun 23, 2003)

since most measurements are taken @ the windshield, i would not doubt that the box described would hit those numbers at the port. but not at the windshield. psch you are probably right 140 - 145 max @ the windshield. lethal you are probably right 160ish @ the port. i also have no doubts that amp will do that. i hit in the low 160s with that amp wired to .5 ohm on an orion hcca 12 at the port.


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

LethalAudio said:


> *In the Suburban, it was placed about a foot in front of the box. *


I just read over the thread, and youre probably right wolf. Since he already mentioned that they placed the mic in front of the box, I guess it could pull that score. I was just arguing that it could never have pulled that score to where the mic is usally placed. Thats not the way they measure your SPL at competitions anyways.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

im just glad somone else can vouch for the power that 650 can put out. It really is a damn good amp.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

Ok guys, here's what went down. I got the two 15"s now and the 750s. BUT, if I get just ONE more 15, my wiring is going to be all funny cuz of the way my amp is. So, I thought I could keep things simple if I just bought two more 12"s. Ok, I dont need no suggestions on the wiring, but, Im strugglin for a new box design...and a new problem has entered my mind....airspace. NOT in the box...in the car. If I have all that bass trapped in the car...I dont know how good thats gonna sound, but when we put the 4-12's in my buddies old VW bug, it sounded like s**t, but when we put just two in, it sounded better.
HAVING SED ALL THAT....I have a few questions....1)Do you guys think the extra two subs are gonna get screwed over by the airspace in my car or am I just paranoid. 2)I REALLY need suggestions on a box design. Ive spent the past week stressed out cuz I cant come up with a decent box design. It ususally only takes me a few days to do it, but damn if I can think of a way to cram everything in the back seat. One way I just thought of for the 4-sub desigg is, thw two 15s behind the seats as low as they can go angled to where it looks like they are firing at the head unit. Now with the remaining two subs, I thought it would look good if I were to do it like shops do the component systems, midrange on bottom and the tweeter just above it but offset to the side.......OOOOO DAMN!!!!!Nevermind.....I just had a stroke.....of genious proportions....*evil grin*....I just remember a friend of mine got a Del Sol Si....stay with me here. Think about how they are...the trunk is just behind the back seat...ok, got that...ok, that lead me to think of the way I saw the orange Gaylord F-150 convertable with the speedbumps behind the hedrest. Got that in your head? ok good enough....what if....I put the 15 directly behind the seat firing at the back and what if i put the 10s or the 12s just behind the hedrest..like the speedbumps and the rest of the back would just follow straight back to the rear deck....or maybe it should slope down then go up just where the subs are, which is behind the seat. and the amps could go on both sides behind the subs on the forward facing slope....DAMMIT IM HAPPY...I finally got a design im happy with...i just gotta get it to paper. What do you guys think? Am I good or what, lol. Oh, uh, how the hell do I post images...I like gettin peoples opinions first. What do you guys think...10s(cuz they would go good behind the hedrest) or 12s(cuz i just like the number).


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## wolf (Jun 23, 2003)

uh.... um.... i'm more than a little confused. but if you are happy go to it. i'm happy with my one 10", my orion amps and my a/d/s componets. i haven't heard anything louder or as clean in a long time. i remember hearing about a kid in canada or close to it that hit over 168 on 1 12" sub in a civic no less. what i am really telling you is it doesn't matter how many speakers you have. it has more to do with the amount of power. everytime you add a speaker to the same amp one of two things happens. 1) you make the amp work twice as hard. which lets the magic smoke out. (thats the stuff that makes the amp work) 2) you decrease the power by half.


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## Psch91 (May 18, 2002)

Im totally lost. What kind of subs do you have now? Try to space your post and have complete sentenes. Its actually better to have less airspace in a car, thats how you get better scores, hence the crx does well.

And also, I have always heard, and go by this. It is bad to match different type subs of different sizes from different manufacturers. It just sounds like ass. They are all trying to play the same sounds, on different cones and stuff. It just doesnt sound good. And the 15"s might even cancel out the 12"s

Rule of thumb is, add double the power, and you gain 3db, which is a noticable difference. So you cant get another sub on the same amp, and expect to get 3db, you would have to double the amps power with another sub.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

dude, im so friggin pissed right now, dont know what the hell im gonna do, i gotta get rid of the 15''s i traded for cuz they're 4ohms...i need 8ohms to work on my amp cuz i aint using the one i trade for...i may end up gettin 4, 12s like i had originally planned...damn this day aint been nothing but stress....F**KIT ALL!!!
If someone wants 2-15"HEs and a Power 750s, its yours for $500...just PM me or something. God I need a break...this new system aint been nothing but stress for me....ive never had this much trouble with any other install. Thanks for the help anways guys, i appeciate it. I know i didnt make much cents, but I was tryin to do things with a setup i never really thought out ahead of time..it was just an impulse thing i guess. thats the last time i ever do that.


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## xt_out (Jun 23, 2003)

the guys in the http://phoenixgold.com/main.asp forum will help you out if you haven't figured it out yet.


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## LethalAudio (Feb 12, 2003)

i got one resource left, if they say it cant be done, well, i guess i am really screwed then...


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