# sub and amp



## 1993altima (Jan 11, 2006)

hey I was thinking about putting a sony xplode 12in sub with a Kicker KX400.1 AMPlifier in my 1993 altima how to u think this will sound?


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## tm_94altima (Aug 12, 2005)

I have heard from others that Sony Xplod sucks, but I have never used them myself.


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## spccarstens (Jan 9, 2006)

*Xplode's suck...*

Personaly I would go with jbl's and stick with fosgate amps, in the truks or our cars the amps get realy hot... fosgates are good in dealing with heat. If you wan't some realy good prices check out shopping.com they have realy good deals.


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

I like some of the Sony Xplod products and like the new Specialty Series more...
A good Class D amp is what you should look for to use with a sub (the Kicker KX400.1 is a class D amp). The Xplod XS-L122P5 is a good sub for the money especially if you get the right encloser for it, such as the Q-Logic QLH-12S100.

Troy


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## apachewoolf (Mar 7, 2004)

KA24Tech said:


> I like some of the Sony Xplod products and like the new Specialty Series more...
> A good Class D amp is what you should look for to use with a sub (the Kicker KX400.1 is a class D amp). The Xplod XS-L122P5 is a good sub for the money especially if you get the right encloser for it, such as the Q-Logic QLH-12S100.
> 
> Troy


 that's what I have and it sounds amazing. For the money you can't go wrong. I have the 1200 watt xplode amp 2 12" xplode XS-L122P5 installed on a q-logic enclosed box with rockford fosgate wireing. People may say that the xplode system sucks but I love it and it didn't kill my bank account.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

Stay away from the Sony Xplode equipment, the Kicker amp is fine but I would definitely choose a different sub.


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

sr20dem0n said:


> Stay away from the Sony Xplode equipment, the Kicker amp is fine but I would definitely choose a different sub.


I admit that the Xplod line is targeted more toward an entry to mid level buyer but for the money it is durable with good sound reproduction plus the higher end, head units especially, have excellent architecture and features (although I still miss the Mobile ES gear).
He is not spending $380 like you did on a sub., he is spending under $100 for a 12" He apparently has a budget so what do you recommend instead, if you don't mind?
By the way, I'm running JL Audio amps, component and coaxial speakers, and a 10W6 sub with a Clarion ProAudio head unit in my Altima. I have a Sony Mobile ES system in one of my other cars which the head unit is 13 years old. I also have a Sony Xplod A/V system in another car. Plus I have a mid level Sony Xplod head unit w/ XM radio in my 240SX in front of Infinity Kappa components, amp and a BassLink sub. I am just saying that I like what I have purchased from Sony but have other lines too.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

The Xplod line has had some terrible reliability issues over the last few years, though it's been the worst with their headunits and amps. The subs aren't really unreliable, they just don't sound good and can't get loud. The Mobile ES stuff was good, the Xplod line just jumped off of a cliff though.

He never gave a budget of $100, I assume you just guessed that based on what sub he had picked out? There isn't much out there for that little, but if I had to pick something I would probably pick this for $90, or this for $104. Each of those subs is capable of displacing more than twice what the Sony Xplod 12 can displace (3x for the $90 one), and either of them will sound much better in a proper alignment.


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## Biscuit (Mar 5, 2005)

I can build a good system for around 300 using Ebay. You can get a power acoustik amp LT1920 for 170 shipped. I dont hear many bad reports about their stuff, and it puts out 800 and somethin bridged. Now for subs, you can get some RE REs and you can power 2 of those on one channel of that amp with more power to spare.


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

sr20dem0n said:


> The Xplod line has had some terrible reliability issues over the last few years, though it's been the worst with their headunits and amps. The subs aren't really unreliable, they just don't sound good and can't get loud. The Mobile ES stuff was good, the Xplod line just jumped off of a cliff though.
> 
> He never gave a budget of $100, I assume you just guessed that based on what sub he had picked out? There isn't much out there for that little, but if I had to pick something I would probably pick this for $90, or this for $104. Each of those subs is capable of displacing more than twice what the Sony Xplod 12 can displace (3x for the $90 one), and either of them will sound much better in a proper alignment.


Well I haven't had any problems with any of my Sony products, but I said that I liked what I have. I would like to know where you are getting your reliablity information. Do you have a link for that as well?
So you like Dayton and I can't say anything about them because I have never heard them in a vehicle. But just because the driver excursion (Xmax) is 12mm vs. 5.7mm doesn't mean it will sound better. Also the Qts is close with a .40 for the Dayton and a .37 for the Sony. The Dayton has higher Qes and the the Sony has higher Qms. Fs is lower on the Sony (24.8 v 26 Hz), the FR is better (18-2k v 26-600 Hz), and the sensitivity is better (89 v 88 dB). Aluminum cones typically require more power thus handle more power. But numbers don't mean a lot unless you put the driver in the correct encloser and listen to it. As I said I haven't listened to the Daytons so I can't give any opinion about them.

Troy


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

The linear excursion has a LOT to do with the sound quality of the speaker, not even taking intermodulation or harmonic distortion into account, the T/S paramaters will shift drastically as the BL changes. The farther the sub can move without the BL moving too far from its rest value, the more accurately the sub will reproduce the signal. That Dayton can move over 2x as far before the BL drops to 70% of rest, the other Dayton (the $90 one) can move almost 3x as far. Even at 50% of Xmax the Qes will have increased by 50%, at Xmax the Qes will have doubled, completely changing the way the sub behaves in its box. The Xmax is one of the most important specs when it comes to sound quality, especially in sealed boxes where excursion is greater at low frequencies.

As for the other specs, the Qts will just help in determining the optimum box size for the speaker. Since the Dayton has a lower Qts and a much lower Vas, it will be happier in much smaller boxes, which is always a plus if the person wants to maximize trunk space. The Fs is one advantage the Sony has, but 24.8 and 26 are very close. The FR is completely meaningless, especially when one of the companies is Sony. Not only does the real FR depend entirely on the box you use, Sony has been known to lie on, well, most of their specs. Sensitivity doesn't really matter either, the Sony has a slightly stronger motor which is why it is a little more efficient, but the Dayton can handle twice as much power and won't suffer from nearly as much BL drop (which lowers efficiency) as the Sony will during normal listening.

Cone material really has nothing to do with power handling either.


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## KA24Tech (Feb 2, 2004)

I, as well as everyone else, can see you definitely know your stuff. I was taking more of a cynical (devil's advocate) role in this discussion. I actually would like to listen to the Dayton RS lineup.
I would still argue that excursion (Xmax) has to do more with total SPL not sound quality. Also the Xmax seems to be quite the "thing" to advertise especially the last few years. It is only the length of the voice coil and the length of the gap and discounts any driver linear "irregularities". The HD is not given for either so I can't compare that. The T/S specs I compared and listed previously all have to do with designing the correct box but all have to do with sound quality to expect from the driver as well. The Vas only shows the Sony has a "looser" suspension (3.06 v. 1.62) since the recommended enclosure is only 1.15 cu. ft.. But you need a tighter suspension to control an aluminum cone. The bigger magnet on the Dayton nullifies the effect of a large Xmax due to more mass with a greater BL to maintain SPL. 
I also contest that Sony purposely "lies" about their specs, so unless you have an independent test to collaborate I dismiss this point. Sensitivity does mean something in the fact that it shows the driver efficiency at reproducing sound. FR means that in the correctly aligned cabinet the Sony will produce lower frequencies at least on paper.
Again, I thank you for the discussion, it seems that we have agree to disagree. What equipment we listen with becomes just as subjective as the music we listen to.

Troy


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

Xmax has as much to do with sound quality as any other spec, if not more (up to a point). Unforunately neither of them have listed Xmag or Xsus, so we don't know if it's the motor or the suspension limiting Xmax. Usually it's the motor, and there are multiple ways to measure Xmag, but most of them are pretty similar and reflect the point at which BL has dropped to roughly 70% of its rest value. Whether it's Xmag or Xsus, the result is similar, accurate reproduction of the wave near rest, decrease in excursion at the peaks. This introduces harmonics and intermodulation distortion, and the increase in Qes causes the system to go into an underdamped situation (at least more underdamped than it was before), creating a peak in the midbass region. All of this will happen on any sub as soon as it starts to move, the Xmax tells you have far it has to move before these side effects become significant. Since these subs are both 12s, they should have a similar Sd, which means at the same level of output they should be moving roughly the same amount. Neither of these subs have any kind of BL optimization technology (XBL^2, DMA, etc), and nearly every sub out there is of the overhung variety, which means they should both have a typical parabolic BL curve. If one sub has half as much Xmax, it will have twice as much BL-induced distortion at any level of output. BL non-linearities account for the vast majority of distortion in speakers, and at any level of output the Sony will have twice as much BL-induced distortion as the Dayton.

About the Vas, you're right, that just says how large the box must be for a given Q, and it also points to a weaker suspension on the Sony (which would explain its lower Fs).

I don't know what you mean about the larger magnet on the Dayton nullifying the higher Xmax...nothing can nullify the benefits of a higher Xmax, except of course for cone area (less cone area requires more excursion for a given spl, so if a driver has twice the Xmax but needs to move twice as far for a given spl, it comes out being the same, however the Dayton should actually have a larger Sd than the Sony because of Sony's crazy pentagon shape cutting into its cone area).

I'm too lazy to look for independent tests on Sony products so you can go ahead and dismiss that comment if you want, however it's brutally obvious just by looking at their specifications. Check out their cd players, 120dB signal to noise ratio? The absolute best cd players in the world are barely over 105dB. How about the frequency response on that sub, 2khz? That sub has a DC resistance of 3.3ohm and an inductance of 1.1mH, together they create a 1st order lowpass filter for the sub with a corner frequency of 477Hz, call it 500Hz. 500Hz is already down by 3dB, every octave you go beyond that the output drops by another 6dB. 2,000Hz they say? That sub will be down by 15dB by that point, you call -15dB flat? That's why FR specs can't be trusted, they aren't all on the same playing field. Companies like Sony advertise their +/- 10dB FR, companies with a little more honesty advertise their +/- 3dB FR, or +0/-3 dB FR. There's no common rating, so none of them can be trusted unless the range (+/- xdB) is explicitly stated, that includes the Dayton and any other subs that have a FR rating with no range listed.

Sensitivity really means nothing though, at least not when there's a mere 1dB difference. Just like with FR, there's no common playing field (well there is, but some companies choose not to follow it). The standard is 1w/1m anechoic, the Dayton is rated on a 2.83V/1m scale (in their defense, Dayton deals primarily with home audio equipment, where 2.83V/1m is the standard). Since that's a 4ohm driver, you'd need to take off 3dB to get the 1w/1m rating, so 85dB, that's about normal. With the Sony who knows, maybe it's 1w/1m, maybe it's 2.83V/1m, they might even be like Infinity and rate the sensitivity in-car, which is a completely ridiculous rating. Whatever it is, that's a small signal parameter, once you start feeding some power into the speaker things change. For example, the Sony has a smaller, thinner coil that builds up heat faster, which means it will start to suffer from thermal compression much sooner than the Dayton, reducing its efficiency. It will also hit BL compression much sooner with such a low Xmax, reducing its efficiency even more. It's quite possible that with the amount of power necessary to bring the Sony to 11.4mm p-p excursion (Xmax), the Dayton is actually MORE efficient, despite it being a supposed 4dB less efficient at rest. Besides, it's also completely enclosure dependent, change the enclosure and the real world sensitivity will change.


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