# DEI CO2 kits



## tkvtec (Apr 20, 2003)

I've been looking around at different nitrous and co2 kits.
Moreso at the CO2 kits. I know the title of this forum is turbo/nitrous, but figuring co2 is essentially the same, i figured this would be the proper place to post this thread. (sorry in advance if it is the wrong place).
I did some searching through here and couldn't find much regarding these kits.
Is anybody running these systems?
If so, what are you using?
Intake?
Fuel?
Intercooler?
I'm NA, so I would only consider Intake and/or fuel right now.
Any reviews on these in a 1.6 would be good too, but I'm open to reviews from pretty much any car.


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

carbon dioxide won't add power................Either go nitrous with full bolt ons or no nitrous.


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## mpg9999 (Nov 22, 2002)

I think (I hope!) he is talking about using it to cool the intake charge.

-Mike


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

I can't really see that helping much on n/a...............but hey, what do I know?


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## tkvtec (Apr 20, 2003)

i beleive it would help any car to have colder intake air, or colder fuel entering the cylinders.
Same principle as a CAI generally producing higher hp numbers than a WAI, right?
I can see how it could increase power by lowering temperatures, but i'm mostly interested in hearing from people who are running with these systems and what kind of performance they've gotten out of them. 
The way it works, it's much safer for your motor than a nitrous kit, which is why it has me somewhat interested, plus it's cheaper than nitrous.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 12, 2003)

*C02 by DEI*

Yeah it's like cooling the intake charge not being injected into it. Call it second hand cooling or something, the co2 shoots into this section of intake track especially made for the kit in 2 1/2 inches or 3" then it cools this venturi shaped bulb thing in the middle of the intake which in turn cools the actual air that flows over it. Interesting concept. Good for 8-10whp on a 1.6 maybe 1-5 more maybe 1-5 less (think of it as a double CAI).
Down-side; It costs as much as a nitrous kit (no competition)
The bulb thing is metal and let's just say hot/cold is not good
for metal i.e. metal fatigue. I don't want the bulb thingy cracking
off and hitting the butterfly in my TB or worse, cracking the 
intake.
Get ready to refill it alot and always at the wrong time.

Following the cold air logic; Why don't you just mount an intercooler on your
na car and cool the air more? Silly or not?
At least it's on all the time and wow no refil!!!


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

This has been discussed already: 
http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=57083 

What are you going to do with all the water that condenses out of the air? 

How did you come up with the 8-10WHP on a 1.6 figure? 

Has anyone ever heard of a metal device decomposing due to heat cycling to the point that pieces break off with such force that they can crack a metal housing like an intake? 

You posted in another old thread that you resurrected that an intercooler will do nothing on a NA car. 

Why are you resurrecting all these old threads? 

Lew


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## 92redwhiteandblue (Jan 1, 2005)

for those who may be confused of how this work, he explained how it works very well. The thing to remember is the the CO2 never actually enters the intake tract. The idea is based on the fact that when CO2 is compressed in its liquid state, it is at a stable temperature, but as is decompresses and expands at air temperatue, it repidly freezes, much like O2, N2, and N20. Whatever this frozed gas touches, gets cold too, (if youve played paintball, you know what i mean) so if you have it in a tube/ line that happens to run through the middle of an intake tube will freeze the intake air, too. And as all of you in horsepower world know, cold is our friend!!. DEI has a few different CryO2 products that utilize this concept- One is the intake air cooler, one is an intercoller sprayer bar (GREAT FOR HOT TRACK DAYS!, but also can rob power if there is any possibility of the CO2 gas entering the intake(CO2 is inert--it doesnt burn), and the third is a fuel cooler, which is a bar that fuel flows through, and has air passages that aurround the fuel tuinnel, thus, cooling the fuel dramaticaly.
They also Have a product for those fo you who like to spent the big bucks on nitrous purge clouds, a CO2 purge system, that in the long run will be way cheaper, since CO2 is much more abundant, therefore cheaper than nitrous....same cloud, less $$$$

for more info, go to http://www.designengineering.com


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

lshadoff said:


> This has been discussed already:
> http://www.nissanforums.com/showthread.php?t=57083
> 
> What are you going to do with all the water that condenses out of the air?
> ...


That's a good point, where does the water go? I guess if you don't run it a lot, there isn't much water that gets sucked in with the intake charge, but still...


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## DanTheMan (Jan 12, 2003)

bII said:


> That's a good point, where does the water go? I guess if you don't run it a lot, there isn't much water that gets sucked in with the intake charge, but still...


I think the water just goes through the engine, a byproduct of combustion is water vapor after all. I guess it can't be worse than a really humid day in Florida.
I'm more worried about the metal fatigue from super cold co2 and the constant hot/cold cycling. 
Hot cold cycling with marked difference in temperature can cause something called metal fatigue. Metal fatigue is something that slowly decreases the strength of the metal starting with hairline cracks and leading to bigger and bigger cracks and finally SNAP! goodbye intake bulb cooler thingy, or plane wing or satellite or whatever......
If you don't understand metal fatigue from hot/cold cycles try to remove an exhaust bolt without it snapping! Sometimes even after you warm up the engine (to loosen the bolt) it still snaps off.
Now how many years will that little bulb thing hang in there when liquid co2 is hitting it at one point and then it's back up to engine temp? I'd bet NASA would love a sample of that metal!


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## lshadoff (Nov 26, 2002)

DanTheMan said:


> I think the water just goes through the engine, a byproduct of combustion is water vapor after all. I guess it can't be worse than a really humid day in Florida.
> I'm more worried about the metal fatigue from super cold co2 and the constant hot/cold cycling.
> Hot cold cycling with marked difference in temperature can cause something called metal fatigue. Metal fatigue is something that slowly decreases the strength of the metal starting with hairline cracks and leading to bigger and bigger cracks and finally SNAP! goodbye intake bulb cooler thingy, or plane wing or satellite or whatever......
> If you don't understand metal fatigue from hot/cold cycles try to remove an exhaust bolt without it snapping! Sometimes even after you warm up the engine (to loosen the bolt) it still snaps off.
> Now how many years will that little bulb thing hang in there when liquid co2 is hitting it at one point and then it's back up to engine temp? I'd bet NASA would love a sample of that metal!


At the temperature of liquid CO2, water will freeze onto the cold metal surfaces. When the cooling is finished, there will be liquid water in the intake system. This will pool in the intake system somewhere. The combustion process produces water, but it is a vapor. It's presence inthe combustion process has nothing to do with the engine handling liquid water.

I understand metal fatigue, I have a PhD in Chemistry. There is no continuous heat cycling with the CO2 system. The system only gets the CO2 treatment at infrequent intervals. The result of metal fatigue is the formation of cracks in the metal, usually around welds, which develop over years of constant heat cycling. Spalling off chunks of metal which fly off with so much velocity that they damage metal parts due to the impact is ludicrous.

Lew


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

DanTheMan said:


> I think the water just goes through the engine, a byproduct of combustion is water vapor after all. I guess it can't be worse than a really humid day in Florida.
> I'm more worried about the metal fatigue from super cold co2 and the constant hot/cold cycling.
> Hot cold cycling with marked difference in temperature can cause something called metal fatigue. Metal fatigue is something that slowly decreases the strength of the metal starting with hairline cracks and leading to bigger and bigger cracks and finally SNAP! goodbye intake bulb cooler thingy, or plane wing or satellite or whatever......
> If you don't understand metal fatigue from hot/cold cycles try to remove an exhaust bolt without it snapping! Sometimes even after you warm up the engine (to loosen the bolt) it still snaps off.
> Now how many years will that little bulb thing hang in there when liquid co2 is hitting it at one point and then it's back up to engine temp? I'd bet NASA would love a sample of that metal!


Ideally you don't want ANY water in the combustion chamber (unless you need it to retard timing or whatever). Pistons don't want to try to compress water.


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## 92redwhiteandblue (Jan 1, 2005)

not water like you see in that glass in your hand, but in a mist form by then it is part of the a/f mixture, so it doesnt change cylinder pressure.....it actually does wonders to prevent detonation by eliminating hot spots, due to its very high specific heat.


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

92redwhiteandblue said:


> not water like you see in that glass in your hand, but in a mist form by then it is part of the a/f mixture, so it doesnt change cylinder pressure.....it actually does wonders to prevent detonation by eliminating hot spots, due to its very high specific heat.


That's what I meant by unless you need it to retard timing or something. This system is not going to give the engine a finely atomized mist of water like anti-detonation systems do, its going to be drops, _that's_ not good.


Side note: I just saw in some mag the company I work for advertises in (2 or 4 page color ads in a lot car mags Primedia puts out so I don't remember which one, but its a Primedia one), this same company is developing a "turbo" that runs off CO2, no specifics though.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 12, 2003)

That is interesting, an intake turbo driven by compressed co2?
Unfortunately, it sounds like you could overshoot the ability of your injectors to add fuel and start detonating. I wonder how the ecu would like that? May as well just juice it since you're gonna have to use one tank of gas or another.


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