# Is this a timing issue or do you have another thought?



## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

I have a problem. My husband has a 97 Nissan Pickup with 170,000 miles bought new, and some very loud noise sounds like clatter, I guess, hard to describe. I read thru the posts here and it sounds like a timing issue. Around 80,000 miles a clatter noise started just upon start up and then went away after a few secs. He thought it might be an idler pulley and replaced it back then, but it did not stop the noise. Always did recommended oil changes every 3000-3500 miles but he used mainly 10W-30. We lived in TX at the time. 

Now here's the issue. We gave the truck to my son who lives a 1000 miles away. We now, live in AZ. He stupidly only did 3 oil changes in 80K miles. Don't worry he was severely chastized and we took the truck away. Now the clatter sound is still there on start up and it continues while idling not as loud but I can hear a definite ticking/clatter from the front of the engine that is constant. Any ideas on what to do now. Change the timing chain, tensioner etc. or could it be something else. I know the life of the engine was severely compromised due to the lack of oil changes but we would like to keep the truck until it dies. Or do I just do what some have recommended use a Nissan filter - change the oil and see what happens first. What oil should be used now 5W-30 or what? Help please, I am now in Tx and need to drive this truck to Az about 1100 miles. I hope I explained the problem well enough


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## GeoBMX4Life (Mar 25, 2010)

*Just incase you missed my other reply.*

With that few oil changes with that many miles, he may have damaged the rings and/or the valve seats. An engine flush may help...or change the oil around every 1000 miles for a few changes. I'm thinking that there were slight cam and lifter issues before, but now they're probably in need of some work. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## schmauster (May 18, 2010)

Sounds like BMX has it right, these trucks will usually clatter a little on startup before the lifters pressurize. Lifters that stick is very common, and sounds like your issue. 

As bmx stated an engine flush will probably help but may not do the trick, the lifters like to plug up, and not pump up fully. Having some junk keeping the lifter from moving out as far as it should will give you more clearance between the lifter and cam, therefore giving you the ticking noise. 

If the engine flush doesnt do the trick, it would be a good idea to take the lifters off, and check for obvious damage on the lifter surface. I had the same problem, and my lifter was pretty badly beaten up in an obvious way. Manually work them in and out, while submerged in engine flush, carb cleaner, or any other solvent. That should break things down and get them working smoothly. If that doesnt help, then you are looking at getting a new lifter to swap out for the loud one, or a junkyard set and try your luck.

The engine flush should at least change the noise, if not, then you probably have another problem.

Luckily they are very easy to remove, only about 4 bolts and the whole lifter assembly lifts right out, just keep everything in order when you slide them off, they should go back in their original spots considering they wear into the cam. Swapping them around shouldnt cause any problems, but it should be avoided considering they wear into the cam lobes individually.

As far as oil choice, i'd stick with nothing thicker than 10-40, I would always run 5-30 in my 180,000 mile motor with no problems, but with the heat, it would be a good idea to keep 10-30.. 20-50 is too thick and will accelerate your valve train wear while its waiting for the oil to reach the top of the motor. The infrequent oil changes most likely didnt do any damage except finish off the lifter that was already on its last leg. Motors really get used to your maintinance scedule and things that were barely hanging on, will kick the bucket. 

I always just change my oil when it looks dirty, oil can only suspend so much stuff before it starts to build up on parts and as slude in the oil pan. It started as about every 1500 miles, then the oil would last longer and longer before looking dirty. I seem to be changing it about 3-4k miles before it needs it now.

:givebeer:


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't know if I described the sound well enough. But to me, it doesn't sound like lifters. The sound is more of a rattle than a tick. I have done some research and it seems that on higher mileage trucks the timing chain tensioner is the problem, , maybe the guides. I'm just throwing this out there for anyone that has some experience with these sounds. I don't want to have my brother in law tear it all down if there is no need in replacing the chain/guides etc.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

cheese and crackers... what engine is it / WHAT IS THE MILEAGE??

if it is over 120 k and clattering on start up ..replace the timing chain and guides.....


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## GeoBMX4Life (Mar 25, 2010)

*Good to see you back ZG!!!*



zanegrey said:


> cheese and crackers... what engine is it / WHAT IS THE MILEAGE??
> 
> if it is over 120 k and clattering on start up ..replace the timing chain and guides.....


 In her 1st post she says 170 000 miles. You been on vacation Zane?


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## schmauster (May 18, 2010)

Hmm.. im worried, even zane missed that!


Yeah i forgot about the tensioner, those like to die on higher mileage vehicles. They wear through the tensioner arm and into the timing cover. Even if that isnt the problem, it would be a good idea to change it out, especially if you plan on having the vehicle for a long time, like you do.

What made me think valve clatter is the fact that it only does it until the oil pressure comes up. Mine would clatter for about 1-2 seconds on cold starts.


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## cjserio (Mar 18, 2008)

The tensioner on the timing chain is oil driven as well and if the timing chain is slapping around (especially on startup) then it's time to replace it....with 170,000 miles, even if it's not the problem, I would say it's time to change it if it's never been done before.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

do not use zanes name in vane..

i saw the mileage and i said ..(as a general rule) if it is over 120 k.......


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## GeoBMX4Life (Mar 25, 2010)

zanegrey said:


> do not use zanes name in vane..
> 
> i saw the mileage and i said ..(as a general rule) if it is over 120 k.......


 LOL...no disrespect intended...just the fact man...just the facts.
But seriously zane...were you on vacation?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

no, but i did stay at a holiday in express last nite so....


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## 95pickup (Jul 22, 2009)

ok my truck made the same rattle for 5-10 sec then went away. 
then last summer it made the noise all the time..
i took apart the timing cover and found:
broke timing chain guide. and the thiming chain had made a 
grove in the timing chain cover.

had to buy a timing kit and new timing chain cover. 
15k later at 204k and its still running.

you might want to try marvel myster oil. use a whole quart.
it free'd a sticking valve on my truck.

but your sound is the timing chain. very common in the nissan trucks-240sx

also ask-email zane gray... and check the how to replace timing chain on this site. Its not hard.. But you need to take your time. It took me 10 days to get it right...

good luck
j--east texas:waving:


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Hey there MM. I don't think a Nissan filter is gonna' fix your problem. I think the story on those filters is they supposedly have a better drainback valve which means you don't lose as much oil as the vehicle sits with the motor not running.

If you do need a timing chain job (and I think you do, too) then the filter is not gonna' help...even if Papa Nissan himself has blessed that filter.

Is your truck 4WD or 2WD? The timing chain job will present a little more of a challenge if your truck is 4WD. The front driveaxle componets tend to get in the way of things.

I use Wix filters and conventional 5W30 oil. I'm considering switching to synthetic, but I'm afraid it'll find every possible leakage point that my engine gaskets might have.

Just my two cents. (And those are Canadian cents which means they're about 1.9 USD cents)


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

Thanks guys. I appreciate all your ideas and responses. And the light heartedness at this point is greatly appreciated. 

Here's the deal now. I took it to a Nissan dealer/service today and the shop foreman says harmonic balancer. He showed me the wobble and it was definitely there. And it is $247 for just the part. Any thoughts or experience with this.

Also he said don't touch the timing chain its too soon. Now I'm confused and don't know if I should mess with the chain now or hold off for a while.


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

1997 2wd, Manual Transmission fs5r30. 170,000 miles. 

And now I think the throwout bearing is going out. Is this a dealership issue or a fix it yourself? Uggh can anything else be wrong with this truck. 

Oh yea, and I also think the dampener in the steering wheel is broke. So yes something else can go wrong. Clicking noise when turning wheel and severe vibration when idling in the wheel. 

Already replaced belts,hoses, valve cover gasket, plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor. Front brakes, tires. My son practically drove it into the ground.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

i may have the bottom pulley which houses the harmonic balance...

email me directly and or pm me if interested..


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Wow...now I'm gettin' confused. 

I don't wanna' hijack this thread or anything, but what exactly is a harmonic balancer and can it cause rattling on start-up (but the the rattle goes away seconds later)?

So maybe I don't need to do a timing chain job myself?? After all, there's only 48k miles on my '97.


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey I don't have a problem with you hi- jacking this thread. I need all the help I can get. I am still wondering the same thing. Do I need to mess with the chain. The tech said it was not the chain and he wouldn't replace it yet. When the noise starts its a loud sort of rattle and then it does go away after a few secs. But mine has been going on so long that the rattle is there constantly not as loud as upon start up but its there, you can hear it. He honed in on the sound in a mere few secs, pointed out the wobbly pulley and said quit driving it and replace it.

I understand the purpose in the harmonic balancer, but someone else needs to explain it. Because I am bad at explaining things. haha


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

grug .

the balancer is in the bottom pulley or crank pulley..

easily tested ..just look at it and put you hands around it and see if it moves without the crank moving..

it can simulate the same sounds as the t-chain gone bad..


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

nm i think that answers your question and you have mail...


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Hey Zane. So I'll try and give my balancer a little twist in the next few days. Hmmm...that didn't come out quite right.

What about you NM; are you able to get your hads on the balancer on your truck and feel for this movement? Just curious.

As far as a throwout bearing goes; I've heard horror stories about one bolt that you have to access to separate the engine and tranny (I think it's located at the top of the bell housing). Some guys have suggested cuttin' a hole in the firewall to get at it! Not speaking from personal experience, though.

By the way Zane...what exactly did you mean when you said I have mail?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

nm has mail ...not you ...


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

*Need info from missing VECI label PLEASE*

Hello Zane sent you an email. Thanks

OK here's whats going on now. Replaced the harmonic balancer, very sad to say the sound is still there. So I guess we are now looking at replacing the chain, tensioner and guides. That is so frustrating. Someone suggested cracked exhaust manifold as to the noise. What your thoughts??

NEED VECI LABEL INFO

But we also need to set the timing possibly. There is a slight miss. The VECI label is missing due previous bodywork. Does anyone have the timing info that is on the VECI label? 
1997 Nissan Pickup, ka24e, 2wd, 5 spd manual. 

Again thanks.


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

response sent to your email address...


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

OK now we are going to do the chain. Hope all goes well. This truck has been a nightmare over the past 2 weeks.


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## Crf450r420 (Jun 27, 2010)

Never would have done the balancer. They wobble all the time. It's either the chain or a lifter. The easy and cheap way to tell is to listen. Take a short 2x4 or something and put it to the valve cover and put your ear to the other end. Then put it to the timing cover. Which ever one you hear the most noise from is where the problem is most likely at.

My KA24E has had lifter that ticks from time to time and it started around 70K. It's got 140K now and still runs.


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

My brother in law got under the truck while it was running. And said if I thought listening to the engine from the top was loud. That I should have been underneath that it was deafening. My gut feeling tells me chain/tensioner/guide and has from the beginning. Should have listened to my gut. But the harmonic balancer after we pulled it off, was coming apart. The sound to me seems to be coming from the timing cover 
Since the sound is louder underneath does that point to another issue than timing chain? What about connecting rod bearings as well as the chain?


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## Crf450r420 (Jun 27, 2010)

The listening will still help there, but it may be harder to tell. After listening I would probably pull off the front and the oil pan. Then look at the chain and for metal in the pan. If no metal other than what looks to not be from the chain in the pan and the chain is gone. Which is a good chance with that many miles and come to think of it only about 20K from where my cousin's chain killed his motor. Then buy a chain and put it on. This will most likely kill your oil leak also, unless the valve cover is leaking ($20?) and simple to do or the rear main seal is bad which always sucks unless you happen to be changing your clutch.

If there is other that you can tell metal in the pan then it's time to make a big choice, like a junkyard motor, a reman motor, or a 600HP Chevy LS (which a dream of mine).


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

*Need help with timing chain replacement*

Ok, bit the bullet and pulled the front cover, that guide was chewed up into at least 50 pieces. And whatever possessed Nissan to put plastic in an engine? Ok not really what I need help with but you got to wonder.
Does anyone know if a TSB was released on this issue?
Ok here's one of my questions I bought a Cloyes timing chain kit from OReilly Auto parts. The camshaft sprocket is a solid piece without the holes that the oem sprocket has. Does anyone know of a better part and should I be looking at a certain brand of chain? I can always take the Cloyes back. My question since there are no holes how would you go about tightening the cam bolt since there are no holes to use as leverage? The old chain is still on the truck and does not line up with the marks on the engine. Does anyone know why this would be, sure thought it would be lined up? 
Last question so since they are not lined up and correct me if I am wrong do you just count the links in the chain between the marks and make sure the same amount of links in the new chain are in between the marks? Thank for everyones help. 
Man I hope i wasn't too confusing.


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## Crf450r420 (Jun 27, 2010)

Many factory motors come with plastic guides. Not sure why. Cloyes are great. We use them on most of the motors we build at my work and both race motors turning over 9K with a cloyes chain set.

You can put the truck in gear and have someone hold the brake, if the parking brake won't do it. The marks probably are not lined up because the chain is stretched out and with the guides gone you probably have more slack on the tight side than normal. Just turn the crank to where that is line up with the mark and then move the other gear to the mark before putting the new one on, just make sure you go the shortest way to line it up. You'll never be able to spin it around the long way a valve will most likely stop you.


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm confused, this whole process is new to me. I know more about engines now then I thought I ever would - so are you saying for someone to apply the brake while the chain is being put on the cam and crank sprocket and the bolts are being tightened?
Will this keep the cam from turning?


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Hey there nm. Is your cam sprocket bad? I've heard of more than one person who does the timing chain job, but leaves the original sprockets in place as they've not shown any signs of wear (or at least very litle signs of wear). 

The last fella' I spoke with (a Nissan mechanic, by the way) said the last timing chain job he did he replaced the guides, chain and tensioner...and left the sprockets alone.

Just something you ight wanna' consider as that would solve your sprocket tightening issue.


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## GeoBMX4Life (Mar 25, 2010)

*Great point!!!*



Grug said:


> Hey there nm. Is your cam sprocket bad? I've heard of more than one person who does the timing chain job, but leaves the original sprockets in place as they've not shown any signs of wear (or at least very litle signs of wear).
> 
> The last fella' I spoke with (a Nissan mechanic, by the way) said the last timing chain job he did he replaced the guides, chain and tensioner...and left the sprockets alone.
> 
> Just something you ight wanna' consider as that would solve your sprocket tightening issue.



Not many people know this, but whenever you replace a chain on ANYTHING, the sprockets should be replaced as well. This is due to both metal surfaces conforming and mating to one another.


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

Would rather replace the sprockets just as a precaution, but how do I do that if there are no holes for leverage in the aftermarket camshaft sprocket?


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## Crf450r420 (Jun 27, 2010)

It's simple. The crank connects to the wheels when the the transmission is in gear. So you can use the brakes to hold the wheels and crank still. Then from there the timing chain will hold the cam still for you. Nothing will turn because it all connected to wheels that are locked up.

You can change just the chain if the gears are still good, but that is not very likely because as a chain stretches it starts to run further up on the tips of the gears. Also, warn gears will wear out a new chain faster because is warn to a chain the has already stretched its links longer.

I would guess the mechanic might have had a case where the guides or tensioner fail early and wrecked the chain before 100,000 miles. But, that is just my guess.


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## GeoBMX4Life (Mar 25, 2010)

*...yeah, thats what I meant...*



Crf450r420 said:


> It's simple. The crank connects to the wheels when the the transmission is in gear. So you can use the brakes to hold the wheels and crank still. Then from there the timing chain will hold the cam still for you. Nothing will turn because it all connected to wheels that are locked up.
> 
> You can change just the chain if the gears are still good, but that is not very likely because as a chain stretches it starts to run further up on the tips of the gears. Also, warn gears will wear out a new chain faster because is warn to a chain the has already stretched its links longer.
> 
> I would guess the mechanic might have had a case where the guides or tensioner fail early and wrecked the chain before 100,000 miles. But, that is just my guess.


 With that many miles, the t-chain has grooved, stretched, and mated with the sprockets...change one...change them ALL!!!


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## Crf450r420 (Jun 27, 2010)

Crf450r420 said:


> Also, warn gears will wear out a new chain faster because is warn to a chain the has already stretched its links longer.


As stated earlier.


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## nmcrazy (Jun 22, 2010)

*Done, but still here a slight rattle*

Okay we finally did the chain, tensioner, guides etc. 5W30 oil and a wix filter. Upon start up it was very noisy like expected from the lifters, the noise quited down after about 20 minutes. But and I am now bummed. The chain rattle is still there for about 2-3 seconds on start up. On a cold start its louder but still lasts a few seconds. Is this normal? I have talked to other people who have replaced the chains on HB's and some of them say the rattle is still there. 

Also I am posting a question on GL4 gear oil for the tranny?


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## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

10 w30 is the correct oil..

no it is not normal..

the timing chain guides must be( must be) pryed to there inner most position..


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## sickwake (Feb 8, 2012)

quick question. im buying a 91 HB and dont know the condition of timing chain, guide etc. Aside from hearing the noise can I view it from the engine bay? is it visible? 

and is it usually the upper or lower one that has an issue?


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

Them timing chain components are all internal. The only way to work on them is to pull the front cover off. This involves removing a lot of other stuff, too. Very labour intensive.

If you pulled the rocker cover, you could see the cam sprocket and a little more...but not much.

Not sure what you mean by upper and lower.


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## sickwake (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks I just heard there is an upper chain which is shaped around like a triangle and verticle secondary chain. anywho i just wanted to know because when i go out to look at the truck i wanted to see the current condition of the chain guide. 

And although you say it is labour intensive it can be done with out lifting out the engine right? 

I could do it myself as long as i dont need a hoist


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

sickwake said:


> Thanks I just heard there is an upper chain which is shaped around like a triangle and verticle secondary chain. anywho i just wanted to know because when i go out to look at the truck i wanted to see the current condition of the chain guide.
> 
> And although you say it is labour intensive it can be done with out lifting out the engine right?
> 
> I could do it myself as long as i dont need a hoist


KA24E's have a single chain; KA24DE's, which didn't come in the Hardbodies, but did in the Frontiers, have upper and lower chains.


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## Grug (Aug 20, 2009)

You don't need to remove the engine for the timing chain procedure. The labor and time involves getting at the chain (removing a mess of stuff to get the timing cover off the front of the motor). Water pump, pullies, radiator, distributor, oil pump...

Have a look at the sticky with this forum. It outlines the procedure very well.

I'm not sure if your HB is 2WD or 4WD, but the 4WD is a little trickier as you can't remove the oil pan unless you lower the front differential...which is a job in itself. Most guys with the 4WD just unbolt the pan (enough to allow for the removal of the front cover) and let it rest on the differential.

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.


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## sickwake (Feb 8, 2012)

Great thanks for that. It is a 4x4 I just called the guy and everything seems good except the exhaust from the tail to the cat needs to be replaced. How much am I looking at to get this done? 

Im thinking not worth it because i just found another HB 1990 less km a little more cosmetic roughness but it runs and its 750 bucks. im seeing the guy tomorrow.

Let me know if there thing i really need to check or be careful of aside from obvious oil, brake, clutch grinding, tires. the timing chain was my biggest concern since it pops up here a lot.


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