# BlueBird Swap or Turbo Kit Bolt on



## SE-RMadness (Apr 30, 2002)

I want a turbo for my car and I was looking at the F-max Kit. But I wouldn't mind going for the Bluebird Engine. What you guys think would be the better choice?

Help, Where can I buy a Tri Pillar Pod for the B14?


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## TurbochargedSER (Apr 30, 2002)

SE-RMadness said:


> *
> Help, Where can I buy a Tri Pillar Pod for the B14? *


Lo-Tek

www.gaugepods.com


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## SE-RMadness (Apr 30, 2002)

Thanx a lot. I wish they had a picture.. But I will order it and see how it looks. If i don't like it I will just return it. Anyway. What about the Engine swap or just the bolt on? what you think?


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## Guest (May 2, 2002)

After spending too much on a BBDET, SR20DEvelopment Stage 2 front mount interocoler kit and various odds and ends, I wish I woulhd have gone with an F-Max Stage 2 turbo kit.


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## Guest (May 2, 2002)

Just to clarify - DET = piston coolers, lower compression ratio, some other goodies. FMAX kit = capable of more power from the start, but not able to run as much boost because you're on a stock 9.5:1 compression motor. You need to decide what you want out of your forced induction package, then you can decide whether a DET or an Fmax kit for example would be best for you. I personally would go for the DET unless you want to make over 300 wheel HP. And with the FMAX kit on a stock motor you won't be able to make 300 wheel HP either, unless you're running water injection and probably high octane (100+) gas.

But with the DET you start out at a lower HP level, but you can turn the boost up and get ~230-250 at the wheels, depending on which DET you get. If you replace the turbo, you can make a whole lot more, still safely because of the 8.5 or 8.3:1 compression. The FMAX kit starts you out at about 250 wheel HP at 10 psi, but that's very near the limit you can run on regular pump gas before detonating.


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## Guest (May 2, 2002)

Excellent points there Zak.


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## SE-RMadness (Apr 30, 2002)

Well, I'm looking for way more then 300HP so I guess the BBDET is the way togo then. What would I need for the swap?


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

I beg to differ on a stock de motor you can hit 300+ hp as long as you have the fuel to back it up, you dont need water injection, that is simply just an added safety feature. Personally I would stick with the DE because I like the higher compression, but to each his own. Remember the stock DE can handle 400 hp on a stock bottom end with high octane.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

psshhgoesmysr20 said:


> *I beg to differ on a stock de motor you can hit 300+ hp as long as you have the fuel to back it up, you dont need water injection, that is simply just an added safety feature. Personally I would stick with the DE because I like the higher compression, but to each his own. Remember the stock DE can handle 400 hp on a stock bottom end with high octane. *


I agree with Mike. although my car has water injection, it made 305 hp to the wheels with it turned off with piss poor 91 octane pee water gas.

With water on, it will make more power though with lame gas. Water really helps power if you are octane limited. If you have all the octane you need to prevent detonation, it actualy reduces power a little.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SE-RMadness said:


> *Well, I'm looking for way more then 300HP so I guess the BBDET is the way togo then. What would I need for the swap? *


A BB DET does not have enough turbo to make anywhere close to that much power. The T25 is much too small

Mike


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## Guest (May 3, 2002)

Yeah Mike, I agree. I actually said that I suggested the DET unless you want to go over 300 HP. Because at that point you're going to have to start replacing things on either motor and since the DE is so much cheaper than a DET, might as well do it to that one. But if you want an out of the box solution good for 250 whp or more with an upgraded turbo, I still say go DET.

But if you're going to upgrade the turbo anyway and you want more than 300 HP... you'll need to get a new fuel rail, big injectors and a bigger MAF not to mention a T3/T04e-sized turbo.

But the important point here is that with a low compression motor like a DET, you can get much higher HP levels on pump gas than you can on a higher compression DE motor. This alone completely decimates any HP advantage the higher compression motor has. The difference in one point of compression (8.5:1 vs. the stock DE's 9.5:1) is about 10-15 hp. That's it. One pound of boost will make up that difference, and with lower compression you can usually go anywhere between 3 -5 psi higher on pump gas than you can on a DE motor.

So with a DET and upgraded turbo, it's possible to do 320+ HP at the wheels on 91 octane pee gas. On a DE motor with a big turbo with stock internals, you won't get more than 250-270 at the wheels before you start detonating. That's the difference.

This is why it's really important to know exactly what you want out of your car. You have to decide what kind of power you want, how much of it you'll want to be able to use on pump gas, how responsive you want it to be, etc. before you can decide whether to use a DE or a DET.

A DET will cost more money initally but then all you have to do is add bigger injectors, fuel rail, bigger MAF and a bigger turbo and you'll have a bitchin, made-for-turbo low compression motor capable of a crapload of HP on pump gas, far more than a DE with the same equipment.

But a DE is a fraction of the cost of a DET (or if you just use the one you have, it's free), and if you add the same components as the above example you'll save probably $1500 or so. However, you will probably detonate above 12-13 psi... maybe 14 psi if it's a cold night. So to get that 300+ HP you wanted, you'll have to run race gas all the time, and you can't do that if you're planning on staying smog legal because it will kill your 02 sensor. The only things you can do to solve this problem are to cool your intake charge any way you can. More efficient intercooler, water injection, etc. But even then you're still riding the edge of detonation all the time.

The only real way to solve it is to install lower compression pistons. Which brings us back to the DET, which has those to begin with but is a lot more expensive.

My belief is that if you want an engine capable of sustaining 400+ HP, it must be low compression... especially if you want to drive it on the street. People like Ryan Besterwitch have stock DE motors pushing 400 at the wheels... but he can't run that much HP unless he's running C16 (116 octane), so he can't push nearly that much on the street.

And if it comes down to replacing the pistons, why bother with a DET? The DET is so much more expensive that it makes a lot more sense to just get a DE motor and replace the pistons with low compression forged ones.

So there's a lot of ways you can go, it all depends on your needs and exactly what you want out of your car. I'm doing a DE motor built up with low compression forged pistons, and I expect to be able to push more than 350 whp on 91 octane pump gas. Hopefully I'll be able to test that theory later this year.


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## SE-RMadness (Apr 30, 2002)

I know the T25 is to small. I had plans on a T28. BUt I know a BBDET holds a Turbo better the a Regular DE it's why I was looking more into the BBDET but the Bolt on Turbo seem so much easyer and I want more HP With the least Engine Problems. And I have NO plans what so ever to be running anything over 91 Octaine. What do water Injection do? Would I need anyhting more then the Engine to have the Swap done? Like extra parts? Where would I get the Clutch from and other needed parts? I'm a Person who like to get things out of the way in one shot.


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

My old setup was a DE with T3TO4E .63 A/R exh .50 A/R comp pushing 10 pounds with a stock fuel pump, and 370cc injectors, I incurred no problems what so ever, no detonation evident that I could hear or see on the plugs, I figure with 660 cc injectors on pump gas I can get well into the 300 hp range with no detonation, all it takes is test and tunning on the dyno, and we will see what we see. I'll be running 14 pounds on the street and around 20 hopefully at the track, well see what the A/F and EGTs prove to be on the dyno before I make my final decision. But I'll let you guys know what comes of this.


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## Guest (May 3, 2002)

SE-RMadness said:


> *I had plans on a T28. BUt I know a BBDET holds a Turbo better the a Regular DE it's why I was looking more into the BBDET but the Bolt on Turbo seem so much easyer and I want more HP With the least Engine Problems. And I have NO plans what so ever to be running anything over 91 Octaine. What do water Injection do? Would I need anyhting more then the Engine to have the Swap done? Like extra parts? Where would I get the Clutch from and other needed parts? I'm a Person who like to get things out of the way in one shot.  *


Too many questions too answer here. Search the SE-R mailing list archives for a lot of answers. There are a whole bunch of parts that you'll need. As far as not running anything more than 91 octane... well then you'll have to decide how much HP you want, and that will decide for you which kind of engine to install a turbo on. if you want more than 300 HP, and you're not planning on replacing your internal engine components, then I suggest a DET. 300 wheel HP on a stock DE will be detonation city.

Water injection sprays a fine mist of water into your intake piping before it goes into the motor. This makes the intake charge denser and cooler, which allows you to run more boost. From what I know about it, water injection will allow you to run a couple, maybe 3 more psi of boost on the street, using the same 91 octane gas. That of course means a lot of HP. if you run a regular DE motor I strongly suggest using water injection unless you're keeping the HP levels under 280. Even then it might be nice as an added safeguard.

Bigger injectors alone will not prevent detonation. They'll simply prevent you from leaning out, assuming your engine management is set up to handle them. You have to have big injectors in order to run 300+ hp, but you can detonate just as easily. Aaron LaBeau is on a stock DE, he has the same turbo kit I do, with 72 lb. injectors and a Cobra MAF. He can easily handle well over 400 HP, except he can't turn the boost up that high because he'll detonate. He ran 18 psi at the last dyno day, but that was on C16 race gas, and he made about 370 wheel HP. You could have injectors the size of Coke bottles and it wouldn't prevent you from detonating, unless you're just dumping fuel into the combustion chamber and running super rich, in which case that's just poor tuning and you're not making nearly the HP you could be.

Detonation can only be prevented by doing things which lower the temperature in the combustion chamber, or in very rare cases, increasing the engine speed and consequently the ignition sequence which will prevent detonation from occuring by simply igniting before detonation has a chance to take place.

Things that will lower the temp in the combustion chamber are things like cooling the intake charge: the lower the temperature of the incoming air, the cooler the resulting chamber temp will be. You can do this by adding an intercooler, which, if efficient enough, can reduce the superhot air stream from the turbo's compressor down to near-ambient temps before it goes into the motor. If you put a water injection system after the intercooler and before the intake manifold, you can cool the air down even more.

Other things might be using higher octane gas, retarding your ignition timing, turning down the boost (less boost = less pressure = less heat) and lowering the compression ratio of your engine, say from 9.5:1 to 8.5:1, or 8.3:1. Higher compression is directly related to higher heat levels in the combustion chamber. That's why lower compression allows you to run more boost, and it's why water injection also allows you to run more boost.

Every engine has a "detonation point", where the temps get too hot and you start detonating. In order to have more HP without detonating, you must take steps to reduce the temperature of the combustion chamber. That's the bottom line. Whether you do it through a good intercooler and water injection, or by lowering your compression ratio, or both, or something else, is up to you.


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## SE-RMadness (Apr 30, 2002)

Thanx for the complete brake down the Pro and Cons of the Engine swap and a Bolt on. The water Injections thing seem like it's worth the money and I don't see why I wouldn't buy it for better Boost. 

My friend is working on his GTI-R swap tomorrow and I'm going over to give him a helping hand. I will take pictures and try my living best to post them ( For those who know I can't post Images for some reason) Check it out at the "Show off your ride section.. **Help Please** 

All he need is the wiring diagram. Anyone an Help us with that?
Thanx.
And thanx again *Zak*


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## SERprise In WV (May 15, 2002)

Here's my .02, for what it's worth...

I just bolted a GTi-R T28 onto my '93 SE-R, and absolutely love it. Yes, Zak, I know i'm really limited on psi with the 9.5:1 compression, but I've got to be honest here: At 7psi the car just scratches for traction. 

My point? 

Rob Cadle told me the T28 would do as much as I cared for on the street. IMHO, he was dead-on with that. I cannot imagine 305whp like Mike dyno'd on the street. It would just be too much in a FWD car, from what I've experienced. 

I like the (still) good throttle response with the 9.5:1, and 7psi is just a hoot, in simple terms. If your engine is in good shape (mine just turned 151,000 miles, btw), why not start with a similar (T25 or T28) and just work your way up s-l-o-w-l-y to the really insane HP/boost levels? 

I can only imagine 280whp on the street. Zak, I know your old SE-R was cranking out hp above that. It had to be a handful at times. Care to comment?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SERprise In WV said:


> *Here's my .02, for what it's worth...
> 
> 
> Rob Cadle told me the T28 would do as much as I cared for on the street. IMHO, he was dead-on with that. I cannot imagine 305whp like Mike dyno'd on the street. It would just be too much in a FWD car, from what I've experienced.
> ...


I dunno, I like 305 hp on the street!

Mike


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

So do I  Can you say Freeway Champ


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## NissanGuy01 (Apr 30, 2002)

mmmm.........BOOST! I cant wait!!


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## SERprise In WV (May 15, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> I dunno, I like 305 hp on the street!
> 
> Mike *


Thank you much, Mike. But let's be serious for a minute. Other than freeway bursts (which are highly addictive, I must add), how much of that 300hp is *really* needed/used on the street. Stop-and-go type traffic. 
I just find my SE-R clawing for grip at 220hp or so, right now. It can be a handful. 
Just my impressions. YMMV.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SERprise In WV said:


> *
> 
> Thank you much, Mike. But let's be serious for a minute. Other than freeway bursts (which are highly addictive, I must add), how much of that 300hp is *really* needed/used on the street. Stop-and-go type traffic.
> I just find my SE-R clawing for grip at 220hp or so, right now. It can be a handful.
> Just my impressions. YMMV. *


Want to race 

Mike


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## SERprise In WV (May 15, 2002)

Yes. Always.


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## Guest (May 17, 2002)

> Yes, Zak, I know i'm really limited on psi with the 9.5:1 compression, but I've got to be honest here: At 7psi the car just scratches for traction.


100% right Greg. Sorry, in all my ramblings I probably never really made it clear that in a 2500 lb. SE-R, even only about 200 whp is actually pretty quick. Good for at least 14 flat at 100+ MPH. 250 whp (which is what you can get by going up to maybe 10 or 11 psi) should be good for closer to 104-106 MPH traps and mid 13s or possibly a bit better. That's absolutely nothing to sneeze at, it's easily enough to strike fear into the hearts of probably 90% of all cars on the road. 

I was only discussing possibilities for given amounts of HP, really. I am still a huge fan of doing a straight DET swap, some minor improvments like a FMIC and a 3" exhaust system, turning the boost up to 10 psi and leaving it at that, like Geo's buildup on his G20. What a perfect daily driver that car is. With all the talk getting thrown around about 400 HP and 350 HP and whatever, people forget that 250 whp in an SE-R is enough to spin the tires to redline in 2nd gear, and to humiliate most cars on the street.


As far is my car is concerned, I can only give you impressions of what it was like during those 5 days it was running, mostly all at 10 psi which I figured was probably about 260 whp or so. I did have it running at 14 psi for a little while, and it was considerably faster... I'm guessing it went over 300 whp at that point but I can't prove it. But like any SE-R, it was a lot of fun to drive even off the boost. And when it's a daily driver in stop and go traffic, that's mostly what it is... off the boost that is. On surface streets that much boost isn't too usable... I mean you can use it but only for a couple seconds before you have to stop for the next light. Where it becomes really usable is on the freeway.

But it's the same problem with a Z28 for example, or a Viper... nobody driving a Viper in their right mind would floor it between stoplights... rate of acceleration is too high, danger of doing a 4-wheel drift through an intersection with all tires locked up becomes too high. That's the real problem, not traction necessarily. If you have room to run then higher HP makes a big difference.

I mean at 14 psi, passing cars was like... it was like my accelerator pedal was linked directly to the brake pedal of the car I'm passing. I mean I floor it and BAM, I'm in front of them. Stay on it and it looks like traffic is moving in reverse. It's kind of freaky because 130 MPH comes up so fast and with so little effort that you realize you had no idea you were going nearly that fast.

And I can at least relate directly somewhat to your car... my NX was a straight DET swap also, at stock boost. It made 194 HP at the wheels. And it was quick, anything over 3500 RPM in 1st gear was wheelspin. But with say 300 whp, it's just an entirely different universe. I look forward to eventually experiencing closer to 400 whp at some point.


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## SERprise In WV (May 15, 2002)

Zak--

About time you told us about your car. 

(Gotta' get my post count up, you know.)


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## Guest (May 28, 2002)

I personally love my DET! I have a 92 SER with a BBDET swap, as for go fast goodies I have a JUN flywheel, JWT ECU, muffler shop exhaust, k&n filter, with a manual parts store boost controller. 

I dyno'd my car right after the install on fouled plugs and pump fuel @ 7psi it made 198whp. I have swapped out the plugs, done some minor tunning, and worked the boost up to 12psi on 92 octane fuel. My car will destory my BFG drag radials in 3rd gear. I would guess I am making somplace close to 240whp at this point. 

I took my car to one of the worse tracks around last week, and it went 12.7 @ 106 with a decent but not great 1.88 60' time this was on 12psi & pump gas just like a drive it every day. If my car will run this fast with nothing more than a stock swap, imagine what is possible!

Later
James


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

i can get that GTI-R bluebird motor complete . If you are interested in the pricing let me know. All motors come ECU Tranny and stuff like that and low mileage as well


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## nak1 (May 17, 2002)

*will it fit a B14?*

is the BBDET only for the B13 or will it swap out with the stock DE motor on a B14?


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

No the BB will bolt into the b13, b14, and the B15s. The problem you may have is with the OBDII systems in the b15s, and b14s. But you can swap it out with a OBDI by using the wiring harness from a Classic SE-R IIRC


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## nak1 (May 17, 2002)

any suggestions on websites or companies that are importing the engines relatively cheap? or as cheap as they can get that is. what does the normal swap run at a descent shop? could i do a manual tranny swap when the engine comes out? and would that be economicaly realistic?


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2002)

*BBDET*

Guys Im from Sydney Australia. I own a 1993 BB ATTESSA with the DET and AWD..Mods so far is stock internals, stock turbo, boost controller set to low 10psi and high 15 psi but capable of going to 18psi or more, when you bury the pedal.
I have a Custom GTR core Intercooler, BOV, 3 inch full exhaust system, Boost controller and k&N filter. Also in Australia we have gas rating 96 Octane..But my car premium 98 Octane sometimes with octane additives. From what you guys see Guess how many Horses I put out???? I also sometimes use 118 Octane race fuel.

Also I can hook up engines.. sr20det $1800 shipped complete with 100ron/rpm delimited ECU.


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## Thomas Reynolds (May 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *
> 
> I agree with Mike. although my car has water injection, it made 305 hp to the wheels with it turned off with piss poor 91 octane pee water gas.
> 
> Mike *


Ahem ahem, Mike how many pounds of boost are you running to for 305hp? With a standard T3/TO4E setup? Do tell.

I thought I was limited on the street to 10lbs? I run 93 octane 100% of the time, stock 3 bar FP, ported and extrude honed .63 housing/ 46 trim compressor, S3's, timing at 15 degrees, stock ignition w/plugs gapped at .025". 

I sure hope your not running some exotic turbo and are just running the .82 housing. It would be nice to crank it up higher than 10lbs occasionally.


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

Thomas Reynolds said:


> *
> I sure hope your not running some exotic turbo and are just running the .82 housing. It would be nice to crank it up higher than 10lbs occasionally. *


Kojima's Sentra has a built motor, lower compression and the dyno was done at 17psi with larger trims and housings than yours. Nothing exotic at all.


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## Thomas Reynolds (May 1, 2002)

Boosterwitch said:


> *
> 
> Kojima's Sentra has a built motor, lower compression and the dyno was done at 17psi with larger trims and housings than yours. Nothing exotic at all. *


Well Mike's statement was misleading then. (Which I have never seen Mike do before.) Mike quoted psshhgoesmysr20:

_I beg to differ on a stock de motor you can hit 300+ hp as long as you have the fuel to back it up, you dont need water injection, that is simply just an added safety feature. Personally I would stick with the DE because I like the higher compression, but to each his own._

The issue at that particular time in the thread was all about DE versus DET compression and horsepower levels. So it was not 'apples vs apples' as Mike's lower compression actually supports ZAK'S point... Mike must have overlooked the compression part and focused on the 300hp without water injection portion only.


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## wickedsr20de (Apr 30, 2002)

Man if you got the money just but a DET and put the F-max system on it


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2002)

where could u purchase a fmax turbo kit online for the 200sx...someone point me to some websites...thanks


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## SE-RMadness (Apr 30, 2002)

This is the site. http://www.f-max.com/
I would prefer to Buy a DET and just get a bigger Turbo. it's cheaper.


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## Boosterwitch (Apr 15, 2002)

SE-RMadness said:


> *This is the site. http://www.f-max.com/
> I would prefer to Buy a DET and just get a bigger Turbo. it's cheaper. *


Actually it's not. The DETs have a T25 flange so you'd be stuck with a T28 for the largest turbo. So you'd have to buy a turbo manifold and front mount intercooler.

It also depends on the condition of your current motor.


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## slvrsentra (Apr 30, 2002)

I was jost wondering if any one has any flow charts for the t25 and t28 that i could take a peep at. Also about what is the maxium efficent boost levels for both these turbos. Thanks for the info. And yes i know they are both small turbos and not worth much hp. 

CORY


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2003)

nak1 said:


> *any suggestions on websites or companies that are importing the engines relatively cheap? or as cheap as they can get that is. what does the normal swap run at a descent shop? could i do a manual tranny swap when the engine comes out? and would that be economicaly realistic? *


http://www.afterdarktuning.com

Dauntt will hook you up.


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## nak1 (May 17, 2002)

wow! you reserected this thread from the dead! I have done much much much more research since May of last year and i am good to go. thanks.


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