# question about the black top sr20



## dragR240sx (Jan 28, 2005)

i had a question about the sr20. Would an sr20 blacktop fit on a 1990 240sx? and would it be harder then swaping in an sr20 redtop.


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## afroeman (Oct 12, 2004)

dragR240sx said:


> i had a question about the sr20. Would an sr20 blacktop fit on a 1990 240sx? and would it be harder then swaping in an sr20 redtop.


It should fit without any problems at all. I swapped a Blackie into a 91 240SX and had no problems or difficulties whatsoever..


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

afroeman said:


> It should fit without any problems at all. I swapped a Blackie into a 91 240SX and had no problems or difficulties whatsoever..


Yeah i even swaped a 1998 s14 Blacktop in my 1993 240sx!!!


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## ABuSD (Jun 28, 2005)

its the same engine, im pretty sure they just have slight internal and cpu changes.


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

ABuSD said:


> its the same engine, im pretty sure they just have slight internal and cpu changes.


your right, they are basically the same engine except for some minor Harness differences and the Variable valve timing. oh and the t28


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## Kelso (Apr 29, 2003)

it will be a bit harder but nowhere near impossible, im 99% sure that there is atleast 1 blacktop in one 1990. since the 89 and 90 came with the single cam KA, its harder to swap because some of the components are on the wrong side(power steering is one of those things i believe) so its harder to swap any dual cam motor into a 89 or 90


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## zellx2004 (Sep 30, 2004)

don't use powersteering. You'll never miss it! I've driven a 240 with and without powersteering. It's better imo not to have it. You just have to use a little bit more ass.


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

zellx2004 said:


> don't use powersteering. You'll never miss it! I've driven a 240 with and without powersteering. It's better imo not to have it. You just have to use a little bit more ass.


Does it make the steering more communicative? I was also thinking of doing it to my 240, but I wanted to know the pro's and cons of it. What do you guys think?


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

Dude ,for one...Keep your power steering. I had a friend that went under that kind of thinking,just pure hell.Second as far as Sr and Ca Motors ,the 13 ,14 or 15 NEVER came single cam(Maybe KA, but it wont make a diffrence).Third the only diffrence between a Black and Red Motor was 5hp.yea, it was VVT,but it is all the same motor. if you have one ,good,but if your are in the market and looking,unless you want to be dupped by some importer(I also am one) by him telling you that it is worth 1500USD more,just get the Red Top.


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## [High-Octane] (Jun 2, 2005)

UchinaHinga said:


> Dude ,for one...Keep your power steering. I had a friend that went under that kind of thinking,just pure hell.Second as far as Sr and Ca Motors ,the 13 ,14 or 15 NEVER came single cam(Maybe KA, but it wont make a diffrence).Third the only diffrence between a Black and Red Motor was 5hp.yea, it was VVT,but it is all the same motor. if you have one ,good,but if your are in the market and looking,unless you want to be dupped by some importer(I also am one) by him telling you that it is worth 1500USD more,just get the Red Top.


but doesnt any variable valve timing make a big difference in performance???
wait im confused....
so the black tops were VVT???? basicly VTEC right???
but what about everyone growing pubs when they heard SR20VET?????
wouldnt that basicly be the same thing????


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

[High-Octane] said:


> but doesnt any variable valve timing make a big difference in performance???
> wait im confused....
> so the black tops were VVT???? basicly VTEC right???
> but what about everyone growing pubs when they heard SR20VET?????
> wouldnt that basicly be the same thing????


Sort of , but on the numbers, no..Only about 5HP. It is not so drastic as a Honda motor.Only minor variables are allowed by the computer,but if you are in to that kind of thing,go for it. As far as performance. I have had ,and still do have both, they are the same motor,the Black top is just something for people who want to spend more money on something they could get the same performance out of for a cheaper price.If you want to keep your S14, or Kouki 180 up to original spec and you have the money,sure,but to put one in a S13...It just does not warrant the attention.


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## zellx2004 (Sep 30, 2004)

The only thing the vtc does, it allow the powerband for the torque to engage quicker. It helps with the mid range power. Other than that, it only complicates an engine. There was rumor for the SR20VET, but I haven't heard anything about it. It would be sweet though.


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

Nissan VCT = variable cam timing on intake only. Doesnt do variable vale lift!


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

Joel said:


> Nissan VCT = variable cam timing on intake only. Doesnt do variable vale lift!


Don't forget the t28 of the s14 blacktop opposed to the t25 of the s13 redtop. Hmm I thought the s13redtop/Blacktop both only had 205hp and the s14blacktop with VCT was somewhere around 220hp. You can tell which blacktops have VCT and which don't by the slight drop near the back of the valve cover (s14-s15 only) and by the "Bump" on the valve cover where the intake cam gear is.


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

Bluehydro8 said:


> Don't forget the t28 of the s14 blacktop opposed to the t25 of the s13 redtop. Hmm I thought the s13redtop/Blacktop both only had 205hp and the s14blacktop with VCT was somewhere around 220hp. You can tell which blacktops have VCT and which don't by the slight drop near the back of the valve cover (s14-s15 only) and by the "Bump" on the valve cover where the intake cam gear is.


If you saw a Black Top with no slant in the back it was a painted 13 Motor.They all came with VTC(BlackTop Motors). Some builders here will powder coat the valve covers of the engines they build to mark it as theirs. I have seen every thing form Blue to lime green.but the RedTop was 205ps and the Black was 220ps,mostly because of the turbine,but if you can find a GTI-R RedTop( It takes some changin' to fit in a silvia) with the stock turbine, it is the same size as a 14 one but cheaper. Only diffrence is that the 14 is Ballbearing.Even Kouki 180's had VTC on their BlackTops.


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

UchinaHinga said:


> If you saw a Black Top with no slant in the back it was a painted 13 Motor.They all came with VTC(BlackTop Motors). Some builders here will powder coat the valve covers of the engines they build to mark it as theirs. I have seen every thing form Blue to lime green.but the RedTop was 205ps and the Black was 220ps,mostly because of the turbine,but if you can find a GTI-R RedTop( It takes some changin' to fit in a silvia) with the stock turbine, it is the same size as a 14 one but cheaper. Only diffrence is that the 14 is Ballbearing.Even Kouki 180's had VTC on their BlackTops.


Are you sure man Because i thought the Newer models of 180sx came with a blacktop from the factory, The ones before had a redtop. Although the performance wasn't any different, it still came like that from the factory. They even have them on http://www.heavythrottle.com/ Under JDM Engine FAQ. maybe im wrong but you should take a look at it.


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

Bluehydro8 said:


> Are you sure man Because i thought the Newer models of 180sx came with a blacktop from the factory, The ones before had a redtop. Although the performance wasn't any different, it still came like that from the factory. They even have them on http://www.heavythrottle.com/ Under JDM Engine FAQ. maybe im wrong but you should take a look at it.



Like I said,"Kouki(Late Model)" 180's came with a BlackTop,but my point was that they all came with the slant in the back and VTC.


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## ABuSD (Jun 28, 2005)

No not a 180sx Type X, they have a black top with no slant and i think vct only on the inlet side.


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## azRPS13 (Jun 7, 2003)

Holy crap... What happen to this forum...
Looks Like we need a history lesson


88-89 S13 - CA18DET (REDTOP)
90-93 S13 - SR20DET (REDTOP) 
94-97 S13 - SR20DET (BLACKTOP) NO VCT 
same as a redtop except with Blackvalve cover +5hp and newer
-------Not Concidered Blacktop Anymore---------
94-98 S14 - SR20DET T28 VTC
99-Present S15 - SR20DET T28 VTC 6Sp tranny

FACT: No SR blacktops came with VTC ( And if you think Im stupid, Look at what I typed... S14's and S15's arent refered to as blacktops)

Why aren't they concidered blacktops anymore? Because they are all black... The S13's had 2 colors and so to tell new from old... red and black...
So if you still calling S14 and S15 blacktop... ALL OF THEM ARE... its just more logical to say S14 or S15...see? Less confusion, we all know what we are talkin about

FACT: No 180sx ever came with a S14 engine... 

So, sorry UchinaHinga no slant in the back... and no, not all Black SR20s have slants, only s14 and 15. And the only redtops painted black are if someone is trying to run a scam or doing the ghetto engine conversion


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## azRPS13 (Jun 7, 2003)

Aww crap... I meant VVT not VTC... S13 blacktops have no VVT but have VTC in inlet side... I gotta re read my stuff


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

azRPS13 said:


> Aww crap... I meant VVT not VTC... S13 blacktops have no VVT but have VTC in inlet side... I gotta re read my stuff


thank you!!!!!! :thumbup:


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

-------Not Concidered Blacktop Anymore---------
94-98 S14 - SR20DET T28 VTC
99-Present S15 - SR20DET T28 VTC 6Sp tranny

FACT: No SR blacktops came with VTC ( And if you think Im stupid, Look at what I typed... S14's and S15's arent refered to as blacktops)

Just out of curiosity,WHO does not call them BlackTops anymore.You guys in Arizona. I am not one to start an internet aurgument ,but I have been here(Japan) for over a decade. I was here when Kouki(type X) rolled off the lot,as well as the 14 and the 15.If you want to talk about JDM,thats fine,but realize one thing.not everything you read on all websites is true. I know for a fact that they did come in 180's. I had one. And yes it was original. I also know that,like I said if it was painted than someone built it,or as you said they are scamming you. You guys have what you have,we know that we can not possibly ship you all,every variation of every model.It is what it is.A BlackTop.


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

Very well then.. now how about we chill a bit before this becomes a fight!! As for the JDM thing. i know we don't have everything you guys have over there, But all the information that we have given you comes from what we know and what we have over here so please don't get mad!... how is Japan by the way?



UchinaHinga said:


> -------Not Concidered Blacktop Anymore---------
> 94-98 S14 - SR20DET T28 VTC
> 99-Present S15 - SR20DET T28 VTC 6Sp tranny
> 
> ...


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

azRPS13 means "Blacktop" not black top.
The late model 180sx had an s13 "Redtop" with a black top making it a "Blacktop".
S14 and s15 had a black top - that doesnt make them a "Blacktop"

All 180sx had the s13 type sr20's - later model 180sx also came with SR20DE's. 

Maybe we should start a new naming convention
"Flattop" for s13 sr's 
"Slanttop" for s14/s14 sr's


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## afroeman (Oct 12, 2004)

Joel said:


> "Flattop" for s13 sr's
> "Slanttop" for s14/s14 sr's


Sounds like fun to me. Everybody chill out to, it's just a conversation. no need to get angry.


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

Bluehydro8 said:


> Very well then.. now how about we chill a bit before this becomes a fight!! As for the JDM thing. i know we don't have everything you guys have over there, But all the information that we have given you comes from what we know and what we have over here so please don't get mad!... how is Japan by the way?


By no means am I mad.I really do have alot of respect for you guys in the states.You all make do with what little is supplied to you and you all do it well for the most part.I do however like strait info.I realize that the entirety of some of the spec and data info there comes from word of mouth or websites,which is why I like this Forum so much. It passes very good scoop.But when I see something that I know to be wrong I would like to correct it before it snowballs.

Japan is awsome by the way.Which is why I have stayed here so long. I dont think I could get by like you guys do in the states. There is just too much here to pick from.Alot cheaper for car stuff but the cost of living really kicks your ass sometimes. I guess it is an even trade


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

Joel said:


> S14 and s15 had a black top - that doesnt make them a "Blacktop"



Guys, I want to reiterate , that regardless of what you have heard...That 180's came with Redtop , Blacktop and also in the last year of production, a Black top*SlantTop*,which apparently someone decided that even though it is a 3rdgen SR motor AND it is black,it is not a black top.The Japanese still refer to them as BlackTops,so I would think since they created them ,they would have the last word as opposed to whatever jargen or fad is saying otherwise.Like I said I have been here quite a long time,and my wife and I have been involved in Japanese Motorsports for quite some time. I would think if that is what they(Japanese Motorsports Community) are still calling it, that is what it is.Also ,I am not mad ,just a correction.


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## Bluehydro8 (Apr 1, 2005)

UchinaHinga said:


> By no means am I mad.I really do have alot of respect for you guys in the states.You all make do with what little is supplied to you and you all do it well for the most part.I do however like strait info.I realize that the entirety of some of the spec and data info there comes from word of mouth or websites,which is why I like this Forum so much. It passes very good scoop.But when I see something that I know to be wrong I would like to correct it before it snowballs.
> 
> Japan is awsome by the way.Which is why I have stayed here so long. I dont think I could get by like you guys do in the states. There is just too much here to pick from.Alot cheaper for car stuff but the cost of living really kicks your ass sometimes. I guess it is an even trade



Awesome. I've been in japan only once and I thought it was totally cool! I do realize that it is expensive to live there but what do you do for a job? Thank you for sharing your Sr20 expertise!!


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## azRPS13 (Jun 7, 2003)

UchinaHinga said:


> By no means am I mad.I really do have alot of respect for you guys in the states.You all make do with what little is supplied to you and you all do it well for the most part.I do however like strait info.I realize that the entirety of some of the spec and data info there comes from word of mouth or websites,which is why I like this Forum so much. It passes very good scoop.But when I see something that I know to be wrong I would like to correct it before it snowballs.


I'm not trying to start a net fight either... But its just that I've been stareing at this 180sx brochure and I can't seem to see a slant anywhere...


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

azRPS13 said:


> I'm not trying to start a net fight either... But its just that I've been stareing at this 180sx brochure and I can't seem to see a slant anywhere...


It was nothing like that man, They were rare, but they were still produced. Even here if you manage to get your hands on one,it is a great find and you can still expect to pay 8-10,000 for one. I do understand and agree with most of what you said,but I did know that they were produced for a litlle while there,that is why I was so adament about it.Thanks for the back and forth though. I actually went back and checked just to make sure I was not beating a moot point and being an ass .


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

I am a Rep for a US company.I do recomend that everyone comes out here at least once just to take it all in. :cheers:


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

UchinaHinga said:


> It was nothing like that man, They were rare, but they were still produced. Even here if you manage to get your hands on one,it is a great find and you can still expect to pay 8-10,000 for one. I do understand and agree with most of what you said,but I did know that they were produced for a litlle while there,that is why I was so adament about it.Thanks for the back and forth though. I actually went back and checked just to make sure I was not beating a moot point and being an ass .


Well this is news to Nissan. The Nissan factory parts DB doesnt list S14 engine part numbers for the 180SX, only CA18DET and S13 DE, DET


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## dragR240sx (Jan 28, 2005)

wow, this thing got way out of subject  . but since expririenced writers are on this page i was thinking of swaping an s14 "SR20DET T28 VTC" in a 1990 s13. Would it be to much of a complication or will an s13 blacktop do the job?


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## dragR240sx (Jan 28, 2005)

oh and money isnt to much of a problem, i have close to $5,000 saved up. but i wanted to get opinions first.


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## Joel (Jun 11, 2003)

there is just an issue with tailshaft length i believe


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

Joel said:


> Well this is news to Nissan. The Nissan factory parts DB doesnt list S14 engine part numbers for the 180SX, only CA18DET and S13 DE, DET


 Dude I have been stacked for a while so I have not had a chance to reply,but if you are looking at the Database,tell me then where exactly it says "S13" Sr20DET and DE as well as CA18 Etc(as opposed to general SR20 parts numbers,there are even difference with the GTI-R Redtop,but it is still a RedTop unless you want to call it a Sidemounted Flattop RedTop.). I tried to tell you man, but if you want the Local version of OUR(Read:Japanese) DataBase and you can read Kanji I would be happy to send it your way. Otherwise be content in the Fact that you have a closed mind to anything outside your area. I tried to let people know what really was out there,but seeing as I am the only one so far that has been involved in this debate that is actually from WHERE IT IS MADE,then I guess I am talking out my ass. Believe what you believe man. And Careful with that shiny show car man, you might actaully screw around and get some rubber chunk or dirt on it. I am glad to see that the extent of you Performance tuning is limited to a Tachometer and some sticker tuning. When you get that thing sideways at 180km/h you come let me know.

And to the man asking if it makes a big difference,...not Really.


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## UchinaHinga (Aug 1, 2005)

dragR240sx said:


> oh and money isnt to much of a problem, i have close to $5,000 saved up. but i wanted to get opinions first.



Make sure you have a S13 mission and Drive shaft. The 14 mission(dimensions are the same) will work but you still need a shorter drive shaft.You may want to call a fabricater.They may also be able to build one for you if you need extra strength


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