# I'm depressed about suspension



## zeno (Sep 17, 2002)

Geez....I finally read through that huge sticky post on how much the suspension options for our cars suck unless you are willing to dish out a grand on coilovers. Is the situation that bleak?

I was in the process of researching suspension set-ups for my next project. I was think of Eibach PK and KYB AGX but now the whole project seems futile. I want the opinion of those w/ this set-up compared to coilovers. Is it that shitty? I would also like to know your goal w/ your car, are you are a serious autoX driver or just a street driver.

I'm not planning of autoXing or anything serious but am looking for an upgraded set-up.


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## onyxeros (Jul 26, 2002)

seem like we are in every post today...

I run agx with H&R and it rides the best out of the non-coilover set-ups

the springs are stiffer than eibach PK and lower a bit more. this weekend im getting my rear beam bent for further enhancements and then i can easily do autoX or a little hot lapping an not have to worry. 

PM me if you want to discuss the best suspension options on a budget...it took me a long time to decide and i got H&R's for a reason.

O


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

Well,
I thought it wasn't cost effective to go the KYB/Eibach setup anymore.
Its (for with koni bumpstops and motiv. rear mounts) an average of $200 a side without shipping. For $200 more you can get yourself some Tein's.

Seth


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

Im in the same boat as you. Worried that if i slap something on then it will be bottoming all the time or whatnot. Personally I'm waiting to see if hypercoils develops anything for the B14 since it will probably be better than any spring out there now.

When it does boil down to it though, seth has a point. You can get a really high end setup for only a couple hundred bucks more, although to some people $200 is a ton of cash


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

I have just upgraded from Eibach Sportlines to Tein SS coilovers. What a huge difference in ride and performance. Even though the spring rates on my coilover are 2-3 times stiffer than the Sportlines the ride is way better. Its better because of the increased travel(Tein dampers are shorter than stock) and proper spring rate/damping force combination. I am a serious street driver(legal though..mostly), and have plans to Auto-X this new set up(with a few other mods). Dont waste your time with springs if you want to be fast and comfortable. Heck..Tein is gonna have a coilover set-up for around $750.00(B14) soon.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

what would be the difference between the current Tein coilovers and their cheaper one...well other than the $250?


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

The SS Dampers have 16 way adjustable dampers and retail for 1250 the Basic Dampers retail for 750 they have the coiloves, but the dampening on the dampers aren't adjustable they are set like other struts. So basically for a Retail Price 1250 compared to 750 you have a 500 dollar difference and for the 500 you can adjust the dampening on your struts if you dont want that ability or dont care for it or wont use it spend the 750 for the Basic Dampers instead of the 1250 Super Street Dampers.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Well put Rama, also.. being able to adjust the damping force lets you better tune for different spring rates should one decide to change rates.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

Hmmm so the single setting coilovers does anyone have any info as to how stiff they are set since they can't be changed? Are they targeting these more towards your typical commuter consumer and not making them super stiff?


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

I am trying to attain info on your question right now Neil as soon as I know I'll let you guys know. 

Pat thanks I am trying to help since I noticed only of a handful of people grasp the whole suspension thing so I am trying to help out. It's little easier for me because I used to mess with R/C cars alot when I was younger and dug deep into the suspension on those things. Ride height,sprig rates, oil weight which contributed to dampening forces, camber, and toe-in toe-out were all adjsutable the only difference is cars are alot more expensive to experiment with than R/C's but alot of the same principles apply. The RC world even began changing the valving within the shock bodies in order the adjust dampening so then there was another factor thrown into the mix but I got out of it at the beginning of that so I didnt get to knowledgable about it. But anyways I am here to help as best as I can.


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

always good to see a person help. I dont really know too much about suspension stuff since I never plan on running any tracks or racing or anything. I just would like a slightly lower ride 1-1.5", not blow around with wind on the highway or feel like im gonna tip over, and not bottom out or knock my jaw out of place from the harsh ride.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

They are very similar to my SS set-up, I would imagine(it makes sense) that the dampers on the non-adj are in the middle of the range compared to the SS kit. Its a firm, but very good ride.


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## Icej (Oct 25, 2002)

When do the basic dampers come out? I might buy them instead of the gc's with agx since they would probally be around the same price.

I was just looking on teins site and they had this price for the b14 basic dampers
Nissan 200SX
B14 95-98 BASIC DSP16-LUSS2
Coming Soon
$890.00


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

im sure someone will do a groupbuy or something that will knock some bucks off the price


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## Icej (Oct 25, 2002)

I am looking to lower my car in june I just hope they come out by than cause it is only like 80 bucks more than gc's with agx's


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

I'm with Pat on this one it does make sense that they would be in the middle of the settings that the SS have. But I am asking just in case our intuition is wrong. Oh Pat question I have for you do you have strut towers and/or sway bars on your car?


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

OK got that answer for you Neil here - *The damping force on the Basic is set to the recommend settings on the Super Street and is mainly a street usage kit.* Hope this helps that was the answer I got in the email. 

OK since Pat is the only person that I am aware that has these on his B14 so Pat this is directed to you mainly what are the ranges on the SS's do they have an actual dampening rate like a spring has a spring rate or is it just set to 1,2,3,4,...etc?

Or better worded is there a rate like 340lb/in or anything like that?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

The spring rates on both the SS and BD kit are 336lbs/in front and 280lbs/in rear. The recomended setting on the SS kit is 8(out of 16) or half stiff. The purpose of damper settings is to control the springs natural osillation frequency or "boing". The stiffer the spring the more "boing" it has and the need for more damping force it needs. If not you will end up with a bouncy ride... just like(and for the same reason) stiffer lowering springs give on stock shocks/struts. The advantages of having the SS kit is that you can put on stiffer springs and compensate for them or(if you dont mind bounce) crank them soft for long rides.


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

Yeah the boing is the bound/rebound on the shocks/struts but what exactly is half stiff? Is there any incremental rating system for shocks/struts like they do for springs I mean not every manufacturer creates struts the same so how do they judge the stiffness? Is it lbs/in like with springs is it a psi rating? Or do they is with oil weights? and if so what are those weights rated to?


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

Isnt 336/280 pretty darn stiff? What does that compare to the stock spring rates on a OEM sentra spring?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

IIRC its in units of force. Newtons, Pounds, ect. Its not something you really need to concern your self with unless you are building your own.

It is stiff, but the ride is way better than drop springs becasue of added travel and proper damping. Its feel stock but way more controled.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Unless you want your head full of knowlege that you or I will probly never use, you dont want to get in depth on how dampers work. While it is interesting stuff, there is a lot of it. You just have to remember that dampers are there to stop the ossilation(boing) of a spring as quickly as possible. If the damping is not properly matched to the spring rate you will have underdamping or overdamping. Neither of which is good for comfort or performance.

I will give you a little taste though.(I cant resist).
Remember a damping force applies in both directions. Compression(pistion pushed inward) and rebound(piston on the way out). I have yet to get any solid info, but I think the adj on the SS kit increases and/or decreases both at the same time. I have no idea if the adj is linear or not. I also dont know how piston speed dependant the damping is. In some dampers the speed at which the piston moves has an affect on how much damping force is applied. Tein has a chart on their japanese page for the HA kit which may or may not be similar. You could also bring heat into the mix. Heat inside the damper can affect it as well. This is just a touch of my limited knowlage on dampers. I will shoot Tein an email asking some of the questions you guys have. Like I said though, dont worry your self with this stuff. If you buy a good quality set of full coilovers you wont have to worry about it because the engineers already did.


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

leave it to patt and rama to make me REALLY beggin for my TEINS that i still cant afford.

*sigh*


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

LIUSPEED said:


> *leave it to patt and rama to make me REALLY beggin for my TEINS that i still cant afford.
> 
> *sigh* *


heh tell me about it, the SS cost 1/4 the value of my car 

i wish i could tell how this car will perform in the future to see how long i will keep it. Its already got 87,000 miles, don't know how far it will go and if its worth slapping expensive stuff on it.

Thanks for the info guys.


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## Rama (Mar 8, 2003)

When you ask the questions check and see if they use silicone oil in the dampers because if they do heat would be a non factor I can see if you use a shittier type of oil then I can see heat being more of a factor. Now unless they have concave valves or some other type of system in which they oil passes through a different set of valves on upon compression rather than rebound which would be an amazing system I don't see how they wouldn't affect both at the same time. The piston speed would be affected by the the amount of forced used to compress the shock the spring and valving. I guess the real question is what kind of weight of oil are they using and what are the ranges of the valve holes and how many are in each strut body. I know engineers took the liberty of doing all this thinking for me but my mind thrives for knowledge like this. 

I am in the same boat as Neil and Liu I can't yet afford them if I didnt have so much shit to take care of you bet your ass the Tax return money would be going to a set of those.

Oh yeah my B14 has like 130,000 on it i still want this setup but that's just me.


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## Icej (Oct 25, 2002)

mine has 120,000 and I am thinking about getting the basic dampers, if they ever come out.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Rama, I can see you do want all of this probably useless, but interesting info in your head. Sounds like me  Ill see what I can come up with for ya. Ill tell you guys who are kinda iffy about spending a grand or more on coilovers, wait for the BDs to be released. The MSRP is $890.00, remember though the retail price of something is always more than the street price. I expect them to sell for around 750ish. Thats only a little more than a fully set-up drop spring install(springs, struts, mounts,stops,ect), and it will be way better.


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## Icej (Oct 25, 2002)

yea they are great, but do you know when they are going to be for sale, like a rough estimate?


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## Neil (Aug 13, 2002)

i wonder too if the BDs will lower less than your SS ones PatScott. I remember you saying yours lowered a minimum of around 2 inches or so. 

The best part about coilover IMO is you can get an even drop which you just cant get with springs.


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