# subwoofers?



## b14sleeper (Dec 31, 2004)

Well anyway, it is time for me to buy a sound system, and i already have a sony xpold head unit, 6 audiobahn 6x9 speakers, and two audiobahn amps, one for the highs, and one for the lows. waht my question is, what should i do, go with two twelves, three tens, or just one fifteen. remember that i have a b14 sentra, so space is limited. i am thinking of going with a 15, but will that hit as hard as two 12's?


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

assuming the excursion is similar, 2 12's is about the same as 3 10's, and 2 15's is about the same as 3 12's. So 2 12's will be slightly louder than 1 15, but it will also be much more expensive (both for the subs themselves and for power, since you need twice as much power).

I went for a single 15 myself, but it's one of the highest displacement 15s out there. If you went with something not quite as retarded then maybe 2 12's would be better, but honestly I think 1 decent 15 should be enough. Besides, you could always port it if sealed isn't loud enough for you.


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## maxedout97maxima (Dec 2, 2002)

get 2 10's or 1 12


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## Azgrower (Oct 1, 2004)

first question...why so many 6x9s? Lose 4 of the 6, and get 2 10s. They will have effectively more cone area than 1 12", so more dislpacement...more displacement = more Bump (spl).


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## Nismo240 (Jul 24, 2004)

2 12" subs..... one fifteen won't touch that


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

I say first invest in speakers and head unit that aren't crap......THEN get a subwoofer or two with a good amp


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

Nismo240 said:


> 2 12" subs..... one fifteen won't touch that


I just love blatant generalizations that 90% of the time are completely wrong


if you were talking about the exact same sub in 12" vs 15" models then you would be partially right, the 12's would have the potential to be ever so slightly louder, but no where near the amount that you're implying. But if you take that extra money that you save by going with 1 15" sub instead of 2 12" subs, you can get a 15" sub that's 1-2 models higher and has nearly twice the excursion of the 12's. If you do that then the 15 will easily be louder than the 2 12's, and since it's a higher model it will most likely have better sound quality as well.


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

chimmike said:


> I say first invest in speakers and head unit that aren't crap......THEN get a subwoofer or two with a good amp


I'd like to second the motion


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

Nismo240 said:


> 2 12" subs..... one fifteen won't touch that


RE XXX 15 vs 2 Sony Xplod 12's

The 15 would kick the crap out of that.


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

There are so many variables involved in stacking speakers up against each other, that you cannot really answer a question about size alone. Thats like asking "what car is faster, a sedan or a full sized?" Choose a size you like for your application, make a QUALITY speaker purchase, and load it with solid power... You won't be disappointed.


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

Punkrocka436 said:


> RE XXX 15 vs 2 Sony Xplod 12's
> 
> The 15 would kick the crap out of that.


What if the RE was pushed by a Pyramid amp, and the Sony's had a Zapco pushing them? :thumbup: Sorry, had to be a smart ass....


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## Punkrocka436 (Jul 8, 2003)

RE on a pyramid will stil lsound better tahn the sonys on the zapco


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## asleepz (Feb 24, 2004)

Way too many variables in speaker types.

Such as 2 Walmart 10"s could be blown out by a JL 8"


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## xbrandonx (Mar 27, 2004)

sr20dem0n said:


> I just love blatant generalizations that 90% of the time are completely wrong
> 
> 
> if you were talking about the exact same sub in 12" vs 15" models then you would be partially right, the 12's would have the potential to be ever so slightly louder, but no where near the amount that you're implying. But if you take that extra money that you save by going with 1 15" sub instead of 2 12" subs, you can get a 15" sub that's 1-2 models higher and has nearly twice the excursion of the 12's. If you do that then the 15 will easily be louder than the 2 12's, and since it's a higher model it will most likely have better sound quality as well.


if your spending the same amount on either set up then 2 12's would be better then 1 15 (as long as your spend your money right) and of course if they were the same subs and only diffence was the 12 compared to a 15 then he's right.


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## vspec323 (Jan 6, 2005)

go with 2 12's i would have to prefer eclipse titaniums or kicker L7's


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

xbrandonx said:


> if your spending the same amount on either set up then 2 12's would be better then 1 15


are you serious?

If you keep the money the same, you can step up 1-2 models or more by switching to a single larger sub. This sub will most likely have at least as much output as a pair of the lower 12's, and the sound quality will improve as well because it's simply a higher quality sub (remember, it's several models higher).

Go ahead and try to prove me wrong, but you won't be able to, when it comes to output and quality for the dollar, a single sub of the largest size is king.


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

Have you ever heard a single JL10W7 in a properly sized vented encosure with 1000watts compared to 2 or 3 10" or 12" average brand subs? 

For alittle more you can get something that dosn't move as much air but is really freakin loud.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

the 10w7 is good but overpriced, for the same amount you could build a setup that would absolutely rape it in output and still have comparable sound quality. It won't be a couple of average 10's or 12's though, like I said above, when it comes to output and quality for the dollar, a SINGLE sub of the largest size is king.


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## GODS_FAVORITE (Oct 18, 2004)

Just get two alpine type x subs my friend killed this guy sound system and he had two w7 the alpines bumps hard


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## ga16freak (Dec 31, 2004)

GODS_FAVORITE said:


> Just get two alpine type x subs my friend killed this guy sound system and he had two w7 the alpines bumps hard


hahahahaha


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## xbrandonx (Mar 27, 2004)

sr20dem0n said:


> are you serious?
> 
> If you keep the money the same, you can step up 1-2 models or more by switching to a single larger sub. This sub will most likely have at least as much output as a pair of the lower 12's, and the sound quality will improve as well because it's simply a higher quality sub (remember, it's several models higher).
> 
> Go ahead and try to prove me wrong, but you won't be able to, when it comes to output and quality for the dollar, a single sub of the largest size is king.


Every 15 I've heard has hits alot slower then 12. I guess if you're spending alot on a system then that probably isn't as much of a problem.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

then every 15 you've heard has been in a shitty install


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

xbrandonx said:


> Every 15 I've heard has hits alot slower then 12. I guess if you're spending alot on a system then that probably isn't as much of a problem.


How can sound become slower? Do you mean that the sub sounded 'muddier'? Thats easy to imagine; larger subs generally have an easier time reproducing extremely low frequencies (20-40hz) which can make the sound become mushy and undefined if they are overpowering the higher bands. Rolling off the last octave gently goes a long way towards helping this.


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## SE-R_03 (May 27, 2005)

SONY??? Why would you want to put something like that in your car, don't you want a *GOOD* sounding system instead of just cool looks. I would sell the Sony radio on ebay, use the money you get from that to get a descent radio like alpine, eclipse, etc. That way you can have something that looks cool and sounds great. As far as the speakers, JL is the best you can get, Fosgates aren't bad, Audiobahn's aren't too shabby either. First you need to determine how much you can spend on subs, then, which manufacturer you want to go with, then what size to go with. Remember, size is definetely not everything. The bigger the speaker, the looser the sound is going to be. A 10" Kicker may not be as loud, or hit as hard as a 12" Kicker. But, the SQ is more to my liking because it is very tight sound. You need to narrow down your search a little bit for us to help you more.


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## SE-R_03 (May 27, 2005)

sr20dem0n said:


> are you serious?
> 
> If you keep the money the same, you can step up 1-2 models or more by switching to a single larger sub. This sub will most likely have at least as much output as a pair of the lower 12's, and the sound quality will improve as well because it's simply a higher quality sub (remember, it's several models higher).
> 
> Go ahead and try to prove me wrong, but you won't be able to, when it comes to output and quality for the dollar, a single sub of the largest size is king.


I wouldn't quite go as far as saying it is better. It is definetly different. Everybody has their own taste on what is better and what is not. Some people think connecting two subs in parallel is better than in series. It all depends on what that particular person likes. If they want the loose sound that gives them a new hairdoo by the time they get out of the car, a 15" is the way to go, but if they want a tighter sound that compliments the 6x9's due to the displacement differnces between the sizes, 10's or 12's would be the way to go. Not any one setup is "better" than another, just different.


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

SE-R_03 said:


> As far as the speakers, JL is the best you can get, Fosgates aren't bad, Audiobahn's aren't too shabby either. First you need to determine how much you can spend on subs, then, which manufacturer you want to go with, then what size to go with. Remember, size is definetely not everything. The bigger the speaker, the looser the sound is going to be. A 10" Kicker may not be as loud, or hit as hard as a 12" Kicker. But, the SQ is more to my liking because it is very tight sound. You need to narrow down your search a little bit for us to help you more.





SE-R_03 said:


> I wouldn't quite go as far as saying it is better. It is definetly different. Everybody has their own taste on what is better and what is not. Some people think connecting two subs in parallel is better than in series. It all depends on what that particular person likes. If they want the loose sound that gives them a new hairdoo by the time they get out of the car, a 15" is the way to go, but if they want a tighter sound that compliments the 6x9's due to the displacement differnces between the sizes, 10's or 12's would be the way to go. Not any one setup is "better" than another, just different.



JL is most certainly NOT the best, Fosgate is alright but ridiculously overpriced, and Audiobahn is crap. The size of the speaker also has virtually nothing to do with the "speed" of the woofer, nothing at all. That's a stupid myth that keeps getting passed around and has no real backing. 15's win sound quality competitions all the time, literally. Read this if you want some more info
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf


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## 240drifter (Jun 26, 2005)

b14sleeper said:


> Well anyway, it is time for me to buy a sound system, and i already have a sony xpold head unit, 6 audiobahn 6x9 speakers, and two audiobahn amps, one for the highs, and one for the lows. waht my question is, what should i do, go with two twelves, three tens, or just one fifteen. remember that i have a b14 sentra, so space is limited. i am thinking of going with a 15, but will that hit as hard as two 12's?


First of all it depends on the brand u got, I would go with Alpine or Infinity (even though i have polk subs) But i would go with the 2 12's, and u might want to invest in a dyno-mat to stop the raddling. As for the 2 amps, 1 for the highs, and 1 for the lows, why dont u just have both for the lows and buy a pair of tweeters?


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

SE-R_03 said:


> Some people think connecting two subs in parallel is better than in series. It all depends on what that particular person likes. If they want the loose sound that gives them a new hairdoo by the time they get out of the car, a 15" is the way to go, but if they want a tighter sound that compliments the 6x9's due to the displacement differnces between the sizes, 10's or 12's would be the way to go.


Connecting 2 subs in parallel is FAR superior to running them in series. Every sub with a voice coil has the potential to become an electrical generator. When a bass note hits, the amp applies current to the voice coils with voltage following the audio waveform. When the note stops, in theory, the sub should stop moving too-- but inertia prevents this. The mass of the cone fights to resonate, thus producing 'ringing' or 'hangover'. How well the amp controls this is measured with 'damping factor', it is basically an electrical brake on the cone's movement. When subs are series wired, the voltage they generate, called back EMF, can be enough to severely lower the damping factor of the amplifier which in turn results in a mushy, undefined sound.

If you want a tighter sound, tune the system! There really is no excuse why a good 15" couldn't do what you ask of your 10". Many times "tightness" is lost on a system because rest of the speakers are not up to the task of maintaining balance with the subwoofers. Have you ever heard a drumkit/bass guitar being played through a good system? Lots of well defined low end, sharp, punchy, etc... Try turning off the top end speakers and see what you have... the bass sounds muddy, boomy, undefined. It is the balance of frequencies across the audio spectrum that results in a tight sound. Too much bass can easily drown the midbass/midrange components of a song and leave you with mush. I would bet that the 15"s you heard were being played by people more interested in annoying everyone else than good sq. If they turned the amp gains down and did some roll off of the last octave, you might be surprised.


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## SE-R_03 (May 27, 2005)

sr20dem0n said:


> JL is most certainly NOT the best, Fosgate is alright but ridiculously overpriced, and Audiobahn is crap. The size of the speaker also has virtually nothing to do with the "speed" of the woofer, nothing at all. That's a stupid myth that keeps getting passed around and has no real backing. 15's win sound quality competitions all the time, literally. Read this if you want some more info
> http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf


*JL is most certainly NOT the best, * If you have ever been involved with the car audio industry when it comes to products, you would know that every manufaturer will compare how good their speakers, amps, etc. to JL Audio. The reason for that is because it is the best in the market. It is also very expensive, which is why so many people go with other manufacturers. 
*Audiobahn is crap* Compared to what? What are you comparing all these parts to? 
*The size of the speaker also has virtually nothing to do with the "speed" of the woofer, nothing at all. * If you read the reply I left, it doesn't say anything about the "speed" of the Subs. I did say something about the sound of the subs. I said that the larger subs sound "looser" than the smaller subs. This has to do with the amount of air the subs push. A 15" sub will push more air because it has a much larger surface area, giving it a looser sound than say, a 10" sub. That's a five inch difference in the speakers. You want to tell me there will not be a difference in the sound?

*15's win sound quality competitions all the time, literally.* Sure, 15" win competitions all the time, that is because the car has anywhere from 10 - 30 speakers in the car to compliment the 15's. These cars have 10's, 8's, 6x9's, and many other speakers driven by sometimes 8 - 10 amplifiers. This does not mean that a 15" is going to be better in this situation. If he has $50,000 dollars to spend on a system, he would be better off going with 15"s. But like I said before, every system sounds different to every person. It is up to him what he wants to do.


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

SE-R_03 said:


> If you read the reply I left, it doesn't say anything about the "speed" of the Subs. I did say something about the sound of the subs. I said that the larger subs sound "looser" than the smaller subs. This has to do with the amount of air the subs push. A 15" sub will push more air because it has a much larger surface area, giving it a looser sound than say, a 10" sub. That's a five inch difference in the speakers. You want to tell me there will not be a difference in the sound?


So by that logic, 2 10" subs would sound "looser" than 1 15"? It would have more cone area and you said that a difference in cone area=looser sound. What about 16 8 inch subs arrayed in a wall? That must be the loosest of all...?


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## sr20dem0n (Mar 19, 2003)

SE-R_03 said:


> *JL is most certainly NOT the best, * If you have ever been involved with the car audio industry when it comes to products, you would know that every manufaturer will compare how good their speakers, amps, etc. to JL Audio. The reason for that is because it is the best in the market. It is also very expensive, which is why so many people go with other manufacturers.


Sure mainstream brands do, because as far as the mainstream goes yes JL is close to the top, if not at the top. But barely any of the actual high end brands do because they're all much better than JL, comparing themselves to JL would actually lower their reputation.



SE-R_03 said:


> *Audiobahn is crap* Compared to what? What are you comparing all these parts to?


Compared to anything actually worth buying




SE-R_03 said:


> *The size of the speaker also has virtually nothing to do with the "speed" of the woofer, nothing at all. * If you read the reply I left, it doesn't say anything about the "speed" of the Subs. I did say something about the sound of the subs. I said that the larger subs sound "looser" than the smaller subs. This has to do with the amount of air the subs push. A 15" sub will push more air because it has a much larger surface area, giving it a looser sound than say, a 10" sub. That's a five inch difference in the speakers. You want to tell me there will not be a difference in the sound?


Your logic makes no sense at all, if you can even call it logic. How does the amount of air that the speakers displace have anything to do with how "loose" they sound? Please provide some physics in your response this time.



SE-R_03 said:


> *15's win sound quality competitions all the time, literally.* Sure, 15" win competitions all the time, that is because the car has anywhere from 10 - 30 speakers in the car to compliment the 15's. These cars have 10's, 8's, 6x9's, and many other speakers driven by sometimes 8 - 10 amplifiers.


I think you're a little confused....the cars with speakers in the double digits that you're referring to are either SPL cars or manufacturer demo cars, NOT sound quality cars. Some demo cars have very good sound quality, but for the most part they just try to shove every product they sell in the flashiest way possible (see: Alpine RSX, Cadence Ambulence, etc, etc, etc). These cars don't have good sound quality, yes they can get very very loud but they have literally no soundstage and cancellation out the wazzoo. SPL cars have tons of subwoofers, amps, and batteries, and often times no front stage at all. This isn't sound quality in any interpretation of the phrase, they just try to fart as loud as they can at one frequency, and if you tried to listen to any real music on them it would sound like an elephant playing the bongo. Sound quality cars normally have one set of components (yes one), and 1-2 subs, and yes many times that 1 sub is a 15. Smaller subs are more common, but don't think that's because they sound better, it's because they require less airspace and the individual can be more creative with their install, which is one of the judging criteria in several of the sound quality leagues. Another reason is that infinite baffle installs sound amazing, but trying to put a 15 (or even a 12 in most cars) in an infinite baffle install would be a HUGE pain in the ass, so they stick with smaller subs that can be put in IB relatively easily.


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## 200silvia (Jun 12, 2002)

Binger said:


> I'd like to second the motion


I third that motion!!!

Also demon is right, JL is not the best. JL is a very good company. The reason you see some people use them is because JL makes very good products in there respective categories. That way the person can use one company (JL) for the whole system, which is also why its intruiging to retailers. There are subs that are better (and cheaper), components that are better and amps that are better then JL's. Its just that JL does a very good job in each category. 

The way i build a system is to make sure each piece is of my quality standards. If a sony hu is ok for you thats fine, but they are lacking when you compare them to other brands out there. Audiobahn is crap imo. You have a sentra, so all you need are some quality components for the front, maybe some rear speakers, a new head unit, keep your amps, by 1 15" and call it a day. I would take a 15 because it can play lower then 12's and its cheaper. If space is an issue get a 12 and just make sure you give it the correct amount of power and you'll be happy. If you want any non biased answers just pm me.


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