# need a hand helping out a friend 97 altima



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

Hey guys, i am working on a friends car for her and helping her get it ready to sell. She drives a 97 altima GXE and is having a few issues with it. I just gave the car a full tune up, pcv valve and fuel filter included, and i am still having a misfire issue. I just got back from autozone and they said that the CEL is reading a misfire on cylinder 1 and a knock sensor. The more i have searched this site i have noticed that 95% of the knock sensor codes thrwon were for other reasons. I know the altimas had some issues with oil in the distributor, and also a manifold gasket leak. I was wondering if anyone can lend a hand or an opinion to what the issue may be. I am going back out to the garage to inspect the knock sensor now for and cracks or damage to the sensor itself now, if you could lend this newb a hand i would appreciate it... thanks!


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

and i should add the following symptoms... - 
the car runs fine until warm. when warm, the car will shudder / misfire from about 1000 - 1400 rom, and only then, thru the rest of the acceleration the car runs just fine, accelerates well and reponds as it should, only at very low acceleration there are the issues, and ONLY when the engine is warm, again, any help is appreciated!


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

onepointeight said:


> and i should add the following symptoms... -
> the car runs fine until warm. when warm, the car will shudder / misfire from about 1000 - 1400 rom, and only then, thru the rest of the acceleration the car runs just fine, accelerates well and reponds as it should, only at very low acceleration there are the issues, and ONLY when the engine is warm, again, any help is appreciated!



Your girlfriend's intake manifold gasket needs to be replaced, the distributor is not the culprit.


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

ok i went out to the garage and sprayed around the gasket with carb and choke cleaner as suggested in the forums to find the leak, i tried first with the engine being cold, and then took it around the block a few times to warm it up, sprayed it again when the engine was warm and experiencing the above symptoms, still no luck.from what i have read, the idle should spike a little bit when the car and choke would ignite. I didnt notice any difference at all. would it be possible that maybe when the knock sensor heats up to temp it could be failing and causing the slight misfire? the engine idles fairly smooth at startup, then as the car gets warmer, the idle gets worse. it only truly misfies when at running temperature... I remember when i had a grand prix, the car would run until it was warm, and then just shut off until cool again, the culprit there was the knock sensor. also, the check engine light will sometimes blink, anyone know why? - thanks - scott


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

onepointeight said:


> ok i went out to the garage and sprayed around the gasket with carb and choke cleaner as suggested in the forums to find the leak, i tried first with the engine being cold, and then took it around the block a few times to warm it up, sprayed it again when the engine was warm and experiencing the above symptoms, still no luck.from what i have read, the idle should spike a little bit when the car and choke would ignite. I didnt notice any difference at all. would it be possible that maybe when the knock sensor heats up to temp it could be failing and causing the slight misfire? the engine idles fairly smooth at startup, then as the car gets warmer, the idle gets worse. it only truly misfies when at running temperature... I remember when i had a grand prix, the car would run until it was warm, and then just shut off until cool again, the culprit there was the knock sensor. also, the check engine light will sometimes blink, anyone know why? - thanks - scott



The knock sensor is working properly, so don't replace it. What was the code number BTW. IF you sprayed the cleaner around and the idle spiked you have a bad gasket. This is a very common problem with Altimas as the get close to 150,000 miles


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

i will have to get the code numbers pulled again, i went up to autozone to get the codes pulled the first time, i didnt get the codes from him, he just said that there was a code for cylinder 1 misfire and the knock sensor, i will get code numbers for you asap, i have a scan tool on the way to me, should be here today. her car has 205k. - when i sprayed around the gasket, i didnt get a spike in idle, at all, not even slightly. I will Pickup the gasket and replace it anyhow and see if that does the trick. does anyone know of a DIY on the net for removing the intake manifold?


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

onepointeight said:


> i will have to get the code numbers pulled again, i went up to autozone to get the codes pulled the first time, i didnt get the codes from him, he just said that there was a code for cylinder 1 misfire and the knock sensor, i will get code numbers for you asap, i have a scan tool on the way to me, should be here today. her car has 205k. - when i sprayed around the gasket, i didnt get a spike in idle, at all, not even slightly. I will Pickup the gasket and replace it anyhow and see if that does the trick. does anyone know of a DIY on the net for removing the intake manifold?



I would suggest that you cancle the purchase on your scan tool and instead buy the Haynes Manual, it will tell you how to retrieve the codes as well as basic to advanced reapirs on your Altima.

I word of advise on replacing the intake manifold from what I heard on this forum. It is one of the hardest repairs to do on the Altima, just make sure you are able to handle a task like this and expect a full weekend to do this job. Before you head down this path absolutley make sure its the gasket if its a DIY

Good Luck
Frank


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

thanks for the help frank, i am going to triple check the gasket before i start the install, yes, it would be a DIY situation, and i will have the weekend to get it done if needed. the scan tool is for more than just this altima. . . I have been starting to work on cars other than my own for some extra cash, i just want to have it on hand whenever i need it. Do you know what may be the cause of my misfire if the manifold gasket is not the problem?


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

ok, i went out again today and sprayed around both manifold gaskets. still, no signs that the manifold is leaking. i got my actron scanner today, i went out and pulled the codes. first code pulled is P0325 - knock sensor 1 circut malfunction bank 1 or sensor 1, second code read was P0301 - cylinder 1 misfire detected, third code was again P0325 knock sensor 1 circut malfunction bank 1 or sensor 1. I dont under stand why the knock sensor code came twice. is this a sign that the knock sensor is the root of my problem? or should i take on the project of replacing the manifold gaskets just in case? - scott


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

Scott-
The P0325 code if fuctioning correctly, it trigger because of the poor condition of the car running so we can skip that one. On P0301 code, it sounds like you did the obvious with the carb clean and no change, so it might not be the gasket. When was the last time the care was tuned up and O2 sensors replaced?
I did some research on this and if you where throwing PO304 then your gasket is failing, so at this point I don't think its the issue.


----------



## Leuthesius (Sep 7, 2006)

Knock sensor is only $500 ... last I checked, it never goes bad. It's always something else like an 02 Sensor.


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

Scott-

Last night I was thinking that you should check to see if you have a bad fuel injector. To do this have the car in running in park, remove the plug off of one injector at a time it, they are located on the fuel rail. If the car starts to idle bad then the injector is good, if you don't notice any change, when you unplug one, then you have found the culprit. Another option is to place a long screw driver at the end of each injector and your ear against the handle, if you don't hear the clicking sound then you have a bad injector. If you have the haynes maunal it explains this in Chapter 4 sections 11 and 12.

Keep us posted

Frank


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

i just tuned the car up, i at first, thought that was the root of my problem. yesterday, i statred the car up, let it run until warm, reved the engine, no misfire. i let it idle about another 20 mins or so, went back out, no misfire. I cleared the codes from the computer, just to see how long it went before throwing the codes again. i took the car out for a 5 mile stoll, making sure to get the car up to speed, brought it home. shut it off, waited 5 mins, took the same trip again. - still no misfire/cel... Then i took the car out for a 20-30 minute drive, highway and city. the car ran great. brought it home. let it sit about 5 mins, took off again, this time i was out for about 20 mins again, about 2 miles from home, the misfire started again and the cel came back on. I pulled the codes, this time there were 4. 0325,0301,0325,0301. my first thought was a bad injector. - this may be a stretch, but hear me out - keep in mind, the fuel filter i replaced when i did the tune up was 205k old... when she first brought the car to me, it was misfiring, the car was warm. i did the tune up, and dumped a bottle of lucas injector cleaner in the tank. I test drove it before she had taken it home, the misfire was still there, and not any better than before. After 2 weeks, she came back over with the car, i drove it, the misfre was far less than before, but still very present. is it possible that the injector cleaner maybe did half the job? I will perform the injector tests tomorrow, i also took off the egr valve and cleaned it out per a suggestion in one of your posts in another thread, just in case. I noticed that the egr gasket was in pretty bad shape. i never sprayed that gasket with carb cleaner, so maybe there is a possibility that gasket was leaking too. it looks like the egr has been replaced at some point, but i dont know for sure. I am also going to check cylinder compression tomorrow if i can access the gauge... i will let you know of my results, thanks again for all the help. i would have replied sooner, but for some reason my email didnt tell me you posted. i will be back with a progress report tomorrow- scott


----------



## ctwaley (Feb 3, 2007)

onepointeight,

I looked up the code for 0301 in the factory service manual for the 97 Altima, and it says a possibly faulty ECM (the computer module itself), which makes sense since the computer controls the engine.........Here are the recommended diagnostic steps:


> *Diagnostic code: P0605 (0301)
> Malfunction: ECM calculation function is malfunctioning
> Check items: ECM
> 
> ...


Basically, you're checking to see if the 0301 code will erase right after clearing the codes by first putting it in diagnostic mode and then starting the engine while in diagnostic mode, shutting off the engine and clearing the codes, and then checking to see if 0301 shows up by putting it in diagnostic mode again.....


----------



## ctwaley (Feb 3, 2007)

[Edit]
Oops, I looked up the wrong year.........But the procedure is basically the same, with a slight variation, and I already made the appropriate changes above.....
[/Edit]


----------



## southcuban (Oct 30, 2006)

i would check what londenderry said wit the bad injector mine went at 153k thought it was a miss fire but it would run fine one min the next wicked shitty. and at 150k if u plan on keeping it replacing all the injectors would be something to look in to its pricey but its worth it and with doing the injectors change ur fuel filter at the same time.


----------



## southcuban (Oct 30, 2006)

and the other thing i just remembered was the and im gonna spell it wrong is the iac its the idle air controller. that could possilbely also cause it to run ruff.


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

onepointeight said:


> i just tuned the car up, i at first, thought that was the root of my problem. yesterday, i statred the car up, let it run until warm, reved the engine, no misfire. i let it idle about another 20 mins or so, went back out, no misfire. I cleared the codes from the computer, just to see how long it went before throwing the codes again. i took the car out for a 5 mile stoll, making sure to get the car up to speed, brought it home. shut it off, waited 5 mins, took the same trip again. - still no misfire/cel... Then i took the car out for a 20-30 minute drive, highway and city. the car ran great. brought it home. let it sit about 5 mins, took off again, this time i was out for about 20 mins again, about 2 miles from home, the misfire started again and the cel came back on. I pulled the codes, this time there were 4. 0325,0301,0325,0301. my first thought was a bad injector. - this may be a stretch, but hear me out - keep in mind, the fuel filter i replaced when i did the tune up was 205k old... when she first brought the car to me, it was misfiring, the car was warm. i did the tune up, and dumped a bottle of lucas injector cleaner in the tank. I test drove it before she had taken it home, the misfire was still there, and not any better than before. After 2 weeks, she came back over with the car, i drove it, the misfre was far less than before, but still very present. is it possible that the injector cleaner maybe did half the job? I will perform the injector tests tomorrow, i also took off the egr valve and cleaned it out per a suggestion in one of your posts in another thread, just in case. I noticed that the egr gasket was in pretty bad shape. i never sprayed that gasket with carb cleaner, so maybe there is a possibility that gasket was leaking too. it looks like the egr has been replaced at some point, but i dont know for sure. I am also going to check cylinder compression tomorrow if i can access the gauge... i will let you know of my results, thanks again for all the help. i would have replied sooner, but for some reason my email didnt tell me you posted. i will be back with a progress report tomorrow- scott


Cleaning out the EGR valve and pasages is never a bad thing, just remember to replace the gasket. I would hold off if you where thinking of replacing the EGR valve. The CEL will let you know whan that time comes. Tuning up the car never hurts as well.
Jut stick with the simple things first. Test out the functionality of the fule injectors, if one is bad replace it, then clear out the codes and se what happens.


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

ok guys, i swapped cyl 1 inj with cyl 3 inj, cleared the codes, took her for a spin. stopped filled up the tank right away... i was getting real low. reset the trip odometer and headed for the highway. 6 miles into the trip the light comes on again... i didnt feel a misfire in the engine at all, but who knows. i got to stop and go traffic, the car ran fine, despite the light. no misfire, then a little closer to home, a slight misfire when accelerating, but not near as bad. got home, checked the codes. 0325,0301,0325,0301 - they were "pending" codes. the o2 sensors in the car have never been replaced, but would that cause a misfire? i have narrowed it down to the following... either she is losing compression in cyl 1, or as posted, maybe the ecm is bad itself. - or maybe it could be the crack that i found on the radiator, yeah, im THRILLED about that... let me know if you guys come up with anything, im baffled.


----------



## ctwaley (Feb 3, 2007)

More than likely the ECM needs replacing because of the 0301 code...........It does make sense when you think about it....

What happens when you clear the codes is all the sensors are reset to their defaults, so the engine seems to run fine.........When the car has been driven a while, the computer starts to "optimize" the sensors, according to your driving habits, stop-n-go, etc..........But if the computer's calculations are faulty when trying to find the optimal settings, then it doesn't do a very good job of optimizing those sensors..........And according to the FSM, the 0301 DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) says the problem is "ECM *calculation* function is malfunctioning"....

So, until it gets fixed, looks like you'll need to constantly clear the codes to keep the car running halfway decent...........


----------



## ctwaley (Feb 3, 2007)

PS: For that crack in the radiator, a little JBWeld should do the trick (the original, not the "quick setting" type, for something like that)............Just drain the radiator until the fluid is below the crack, apply the stuff, making sure the surface is clean and dry, and let it set until fully hardened.....


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

onepointeight said:


> ok guys, i swapped cyl 1 inj with cyl 3 inj, cleared the codes, took her for a spin. stopped filled up the tank right away... i was getting real low. reset the trip odometer and headed for the highway. 6 miles into the trip the light comes on again... i didnt feel a misfire in the engine at all, but who knows. i got to stop and go traffic, the car ran fine, despite the light. no misfire, then a little closer to home, a slight misfire when accelerating, but not near as bad. got home, checked the codes. 0325,0301,0325,0301 - they were "pending" codes. the o2 sensors in the car have never been replaced, but would that cause a misfire? i have narrowed it down to the following... either she is losing compression in cyl 1, or as posted, maybe the ecm is bad itself. - or maybe it could be the crack that i found on the radiator, yeah, im THRILLED about that... let me know if you guys come up with anything, im baffled.



ctwaley make a good point, I would further diagnosi the ECM to determine if it is bad or not. I would suggest bring the Altima to a reputable dealer to determine if ECM. If it need replacing then you might be able to get a better deal besides the dealer.

On the subject of the radiator, you can plastic weld it if you like or just replace it. I personally would just replace it, its a fairly simple task, but thats just my opinion.

Frank


----------



## ctwaley (Feb 3, 2007)

Hey onepointeight,

How's the car running?..........Did you figure out the problem?.......


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

i am about 98% sure it is the computer. i wound up needing to replace the radiator, i couldnt stop the leak, that just showed up today. The lady i was fixing it for doesnt want to put any more $$ into it, she is just going to sell it as is with the CEL and tell them what is up. I told her that on her budget, she wont be able to fix EVERYTHING, so she opted out... thanks for all the help guys! the car getss tires and hits the paper next week!


----------



## LONDONDERRY (May 19, 2004)

Your lady friend is going to have a tough time selling a car that needs a new OBD computer out right. If she hide that fact and it sells she may be eating the cost for repairs from any new owner or worst she'll have to refund the new owner.


----------



## ctwaley (Feb 3, 2007)

onepointeight,

Try to find a used computer module that works from a junk yard, if she's not going to keep it........Should cost less than a new one, and won't hinder the sale......


----------



## onepointeight (Mar 25, 2007)

yes, i know, and i have explained this all to her, but she says she will sell it as is, alll i could do at that point is say "best of luck" - thanks again for all the help guys, you may see me around again sometime!


----------

