# Z31 ignition coil upgrade chat



## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

Just wondered if any of you guys have upgraded your ignition coils. And if so, what did you get and were you pleased.?.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

The stock spark system is quite good and can handle a lot of boost. AT 16 psi it never hiccupped evenb once in my car. I'd only change the coil if I wanted to run a lot of boost *and* a bigger plug gap than stock. There is no point in changing out the coil just to be changing it. At stock gaps and lower (some close up the gap to improve response at higher boost levels, I didn't...) the coil works just fine.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

Ive replaced mine with a crane ignition system, tripple coil pack wasted spark setup, played around with the dash's tacho a bit, so i bought an aftermarket tacho. It is fixable, just i couldnt be bothered doing it. the reason for the swap? well when the new turbo goes on, its going to be blowing spark out left right and centre (well maybe not) 

Also due to ECU upgrade to microtech ems.

Id replace it again if i had the chance, when i replaced it the car seemed to feel more responsive in the top end stakes.


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## AZ-ZBum (Nov 21, 2004)

stock ignition is good for over 300hp. swapping to a different ignition will get you no gains in HP. I'm not sure where the crossover point is, but there are people putting 400hp down at the rear wheels with the stock ignition stuff.


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

dales86t said:


> Ive replaced mine with a crane ignition system, tripple coil pack wasted spark setup, played around with the dash's tacho a bit, so i bought an aftermarket tacho. It is fixable, just i couldnt be bothered doing it. the reason for the swap? well when the new turbo goes on, its going to be blowing spark out left right and centre (well maybe not)
> 
> Also due to ECU upgrade to microtech ems.
> 
> Id replace it again if i had the chance, when i replaced it the car seemed to feel more responsive in the top end stakes.


I didnt do a whole ignition replacement. Just ordered a new coil. Looking for better fuel consumption. The stock probably works fine, but an after market one "for off road use" will work even better. 

Crane ignition system? Which one? I just know them for their cams. (I have a couple in my bike) I was thinking about possibly doing this in the future. (was thinkin' more towards MSD though) Did you have to use an aftermarket tach? Will it work with a stock ECU?


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

and... does anyone make an aftermarket distributor for this car?


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

Crane make lots of good stuff from cams to rods to ignition, the companys are split into different areas but all run under crane.

The new items are single blaster coil, however search hard enough and you can find the seperate igniters.

not sure about ecconomy, that went out the window when the boost was upped.....

if you want ecconomy, buy a honda.

If not, heres a link to some crane gear, where i got mine from.

http://horsepowerinabox.com/HPIAB2/category34_1.htm

MSD is good, but not great since alot of people have problems with them.


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## AZ-ZBum (Nov 21, 2004)

You're funny. I've never had a problem with my MSD system. But it didn't increase the power or fuel economy any. But, since I went through the trouble of installing it and creating a tray and everything else for it, I didn't want to take it out.

All aftermarket ignitions are pretty much the same principal. Claims are one thing, but dyno charts speak for the rest of us. I have dyno comparisons on my site for those inclined. Your money is better spent trying to achieve real power from real mods at first. After that, then an aftermarket ignition might help you get those couple extra ponies.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

yeah agreed, besides the funny part 

I havent felt any gains, but it does its job at the end of the day regardless of horsepower, after all they're just CD systems. Perhaps at high boost levels i'll dyno both coils when im rich? who knows could just move the power curve a little or something.

As far as replacing the distribuitor, why would you? back in the day in v8 clunker times people upgraded just so they could rid of points and go CAS/HALL style and tune that way, we just use multi coil packs use the CAS trigger and rid the dizzy cap all together!


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

MrFurious said:


> I didnt do a whole ignition replacement. Just ordered a new coil. Looking for better fuel consumption.


 The funny thing about spark plugs, is they pull exactly the amount of juice needed to bridge the gap, each and every time, and that will not change whether you get a new coil or not. If the spark needed to be exactly 41,000 volts to bridge the gap at 3000 rpm, guess what, it will still only use 41,000 volts to bridge the gap at 3000 rpm, if engine conditions have not changed. Installing a coil with no other upgrades is, at best, a waste of money. You'll see exactly zero gain in fuel mileage and performance.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Addendum to above: That is assuming there were no problems with the original spark system. If the OE coil is weak or cracked or otherwise not achieving full voltage, you _will_ see an improvement by installing a new coil. But this means you were simply fixing an existing problem, not improving on the original system.


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

How long did it take you to think that up?


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## 0341TODD (Nov 15, 2003)

Zen31ZR said:


> The funny thing about spark plugs, is they pull exactly the amount of juice needed to bridge the gap, each and every time, and that will not change whether you get a new coil or not. If the spark needed to be exactly 41,000 volts to bridge the gap at 3000 rpm, guess what, it will still only use 41,000 volts to bridge the gap at 3000 rpm, if engine conditions have not changed. Installing a coil with no other upgrades is, at best, a waste of money. You'll see exactly zero gain in fuel mileage and performance.



But doesnt a larger coil work as somewhat of a capacitor? I know nology has a capacitor system that I bought for my other car that I tried out b/c the duty rate on my injectors was too high. It fixed the problem. Not saying at all that the MSD coil I have would fix that-- but wouldnt it almost work in such a way? Or is it that they are just "BUILT" to handle more stress brought on by the ignition box? 


Just to add......MSD 6AL & MSD Blaster Coil....NGK WIRES & PLUGS---- I have had no problems with that setup whatsoever since I put it in two years ago-- It had been in my other car for two years previous too! Ive heard of some people having problems with them too, but I was told that alot of it is where you mount the box and if you give it sufficient air.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

MrFurious said:


> How long did it take you to think that up?


It's just simply fact. Go to an automotive school and spend about 15 years under the hood and you'll learn something.  The only reason I'm not ASE certified and working in the shops anymore is because I can't stand the sheisters that are everywhere in the industry.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

0341TODD said:


> But doesnt a larger coil work as somewhat of a capacitor?


No. Only the amount of juice needed to bridge the plug gap is used. If you want to see an improvement with a bigger coil, you simply create a bigger plug gap......


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

If youve spent 15 years under a bonnet you would also know the hotter the spark the better the burn, so in a sense it should provide performance, but doesn't. Until you up the boost and have your spark blown out, you can't really find a difference. Up grading to a CD system is something ive done due to the better compromise between power savings to run it, and getting rod of that god awful distribuitor cap!


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

All I really expect from a new coil is to get less missing and a smoother running motor. Maby a small power gain when I regap the plugs. This is sort of a modification done in preparation of future modifications.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

gapping plus wont net you any horsepower. Change dizzy cap and leads, check rotor, run codes, replace broken vaccume hoses and you should be fine with the miss. if you have a miss with a standard coil, upgrading it wont make it any better


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

dales86t said:


> If youve spent 15 years under a bonnet you would also know the hotter the spark the better the burn, so in a sense it should provide performance, but doesn't. Until you up the boost and have your spark blown out, you can't really find a difference. Up grading to a CD system is something ive done due to the better compromise between power savings to run it, and getting rod of that god awful distribuitor cap!


Sure, the best thing to do would be to get rid of the distributor cap altogether. But for what it is, the Z31s stock system is pretty good. But if all he wants to do is throw a bigger coil on it, he'll have to do something else to see any improvement in anything..... Generally one way is to up the gap.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

So tell me how does gapping a plug beyond stock with a bigger coil improve anything? 

answer: it doesn't.

Even with slightly more boost, and an exhaust and intake, he isn't going to find any difference at all. Until he runs into trouble with blowing out spark under high boost this is going to be a negative, and he definantly wont have blowing out spark unless he upgrades the turbocharger put simply, the stock t-3 just isnt big enough to blow a spark out.


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## lostmenoggin (Sep 10, 2005)

Are you sure hes got a turbo? Are you talking about MrFurious?


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

You may be onto something................. My bad!


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

Zen31ZR said:


> The funny thing about spark plugs, is they pull exactly the amount of juice needed to bridge the gap, each and every time, and that will not change whether you get a new coil or not.


I thought I was going to be able to let this slide... But I guess I wont due that this is rediculas. I must inform you of something else I know. There is no way for a plug to "just pull the amount of juice needed". The best a plug can do to alter the amount of "juice"/volts in the spark is for them to put a resistor in it. And even if there is a resistor in it, the more volts supplied would still put more volts in the spark. 








As you can see there isnt much to a plug. There is a rod to the electrode. Resistor (aka suppressor) in the rod on some. Which is all surrounded by an insulator, so it wont ground out or "dump" early. When the electricity is supplied it travels through the rod & resistor to the electrode making the jump to the grounding arm/side terminal. The more volts supplied to the plug will cause a thicker, larger spark. Plus by supplying more electricity to the plug it will make it possible for the spark to make a larger jump accross a larger gap, also creating a larger spark.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

You're not saying anything I didn't say already. And theres a reason for the resistor. Makes it easier for the spark to jump across the ultra-rich atmosphere in the gap present in a very cold combustion chamber, aka, when the engine is first started up. Thats a heat sensitive resistor.


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## bonez (Dec 7, 2005)

HUH? Am I reading this correctly? You said no matter what, a spark plug will only pull what juice it needs/uses/wants. You said no matter what voltage you put through it, it will only use what voltage it needs/uses/wants. Which is false. You were corrected and still don't get it.

A spark plug is basically a wire missing a small piece. That small piece is your plug gap. If you run a million volts through it, a million will travel through the plug, across the gap to the electrode where it is grounded out thus creating a hell of a spark. The only loss will occur with the resistance of the wire and plug which isn't much at all. Run 12 volts through a plug and nothing will happen at all. There isn't enough voltage to create a spark. You can have a million amp 12v power supply and it still won't jump the gap. Voltage is the key to a spark.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

Instead of arguing hows about giving pro's and cons of upgrading the ignition coil? 

stay on topic people! its annoying when people get defensive and argue about how stuff works, ir works and thats all anyone wants to know.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

bonez said:


> HUH? Am I reading this correctly? You said no matter what, a spark plug will only pull what juice it needs/uses/wants. You said no matter what voltage you put through it, it will only use what voltage it needs/uses/wants. Which is false. You were corrected and still don't get it.
> 
> A spark plug is basically a wire missing a small piece. That small piece is your plug gap. If you run a million volts through it, a million will travel through the plug, across the gap to the electrode where it is grounded out thus creating a hell of a spark. The only loss will occur with the resistance of the wire and plug which isn't much at all. Run 12 volts through a plug and nothing will happen at all. There isn't enough voltage to create a spark. You can have a million amp 12v power supply and it still won't jump the gap. Voltage is the key to a spark.


I can see you obviously have no clue how electricity works. Only the amount of juice needed to jump the gap will be used. I'd like to know how you figure a coil can "force" more juice across the gap, given the nature of how it works. Learn a bit more about how electricity flows, and then come back and argue with me.


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

All the electricity that is sent to the plug will make the jump. The more sent = the more jumps. Soo.... as I was saying about missing. When you get up in the RPMs, and the time that the distributor rotor passes over the prong thingy' for each cylinder lessens... you will get considerably more "juice" to the plug. Thus resulting in a much larger spark than usual at a high RPM.


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## bonez (Dec 7, 2005)

Sorry but I am just trying to get the proper information to someone asking a question about an ign upgrade. Wasn't trying to argue but i know that I wouldn't like to be told something that isn't true.




http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/techtips.asp?nav=31000&country=US



"Spark plugs transmit electrical energy that turns fuel into working energy. A sufficient amount of voltage must be supplied by the ignition system to cause it to spark across the spark plug's gap. This is called "Electrical Performance."

Key words: sufficient amount of voltage

More voltage=more spark


Back to the subject, a ign upgrade will create more spark through your plugs creating better combustion in your chamber. Fact. Will you notice it? Depends on your engine. In a stock engine you might not notice any power whatsoever but may notice slight throttle response and mileage. Hope this helps....im done.


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

MrFurious said:


> All the electricity that is sent to the plug will make the jump. The more sent = the more jumps. Soo.... as I was saying about missing. When you get up in the RPMs, and the time that the distributor rotor passes over the prong thingy' for each cylinder lessens... you will get considerably more "juice" to the plug. Thus resulting in a much larger spark than usual at a high RPM.


Wow, you have totally got that absolutely wrong. Less time for the rotor to make its rounds = less time for the coil to charge up between firings. Electronic ignition makes it somewhat better, but it's still true that higher rpms equals a much weaker spark. No matter what coil you use. The only thing to do is to maximize dwell, which has nothing to do with the coil and that issue is dealt with by the ignitor pack. If you really want to see any gains for your ignition system, you'lll have to change the entire system. Simply slapping a bigger coil on won't do anything but cost you money. The coil is already matched to system output and dwell time by the factory engineers, installing a bigger coil will only upset the stock systems balance. You'll end up with less dwell time and an overworked 15 year old ignitor pack that might possibly burn out feeding more juice to that bigger coil.....


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree with Zen. A spark is a friggin spark...period. I would upgrade my ignition system to have a less chance of a misfire, etc not to expect hp gain. Theres a bug called The Super S h i t b o x, runs 11's 11.039 @ 117.60 mph, naturally aspirated...now here are the guys running 12's with their bugs that spend THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS (or more) on their "special" ignition systems and are pissed. Here they are bragging about theyre ignition systems, blah blah blah but at the track run slower than the super sihtbox...if you're not pushing alot of hp, as in ALOT then i think you have no business in getting so caught in something very advanced, fully controllable-programmable dual spark, dual spark plug ignition system etc and so on...you've seen em, cars with the WHOLE NINE YARDS, they could have spent less money on a good ignition sytem (something decent, not the most expensive ones) and used that money to build the engine more or what not. These guys that are running 9's ... the reallllly fast ones will be helped with a good ignition system, as for me it works, its fine...im not running 7's and going up 11k rpm so i shouldnt be worried. I'll keep saving my money and get that Garrett GT35R turbocharger ive been so wanting.

we can get so into a spark, argue about them, the physics of a spark how long it is what it affects, how hot the spark is etc and so on.......after you we get off of our computers...we think about it...its a spark  

if its not broken, dont fix it









thats an 11 sec bug, doesn't look like it runs 11's and thats the point of that car  (ive only seen it once at Bug-In 32 at Fontana Speedway when people from Sweden flew here to buy that car...its in sweden roaming the streets now lol)


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

LOL, Beware of a bug with 10" Mickey Thompson's on. LOL


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

u think im joking about it ?


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

I'm sure its fast, but its a joke.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

have to agree its a joke. Post a timeslip of it and maybe we'll understand, so tell me again, why did you change the topic? Was it like we cared about it and we suddenly transported into a volkswagon forum?


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

MrFurious said:


> I'm sure its fast, but its a joke.


oh ok lol, heres a couple of old school vws









12 secs isnt unheard of in a properly upgraded bug...while 12secs is pretty good our fastest car is the VW Paradise dragster powered by an air cooled flat four vw engine turbocharged...i copied this from their site www.vwparadise.com (once your there click on racing news to see pixs of the dragster) "We are now proudly campaigning our 7th generation of VW dragster which continues to hold the World Record with a 6.60 @ 203.94 MPH quarter-mile. The quickest & fastest quarter-mile run so far has been a 6.53 at 209.98 MPH."
The site hasnt been updated in a while, I believe the record is (if i remember correctly) Brad Personett 6.44 @ 218mph Scion Tc

anyway, about the ignition systems i was thinking about it more. When do you need to upgrade your ignition system? The sentence answers itself, when you HAVE to, if it works fine keep it...keep building the car...keep goin up in hp, change it when it isnt sufficient enough, like AZ-Zbum said there are 300ZXs putting down 400hp with the stock ignition in them...so once you get it up to about 400hp then should you start thinking about it.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

okays so tell me again, why did we all of a sudden speak about VWs?


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

dales86t said:


> have to agree its a joke. Post a timeslip of it and maybe we'll understand, so tell me again, why did you change the topic? Was it like we cared about it and we suddenly transported into a volkswagon forum?


My point was that the car runs 11's and is using the stock ignition system. I didn't change the topic. its an example relating to the topic. (no joke, it was number one for the 2004 cal-look season all motor...the point of that car was to make it fast using the least amount of money...you keep the stock ignition assemble a 2332cc engine with a cb performance full circle, chromoly crankshaft, cb's H-beam connecting rods, 3 angle valve job, fully ported heads etc) just because it looks like shit doesnt mean its slow. www.cal-look.com under top 10/20 ... 2004 season) 

You can keep the stock ignition system, make your car faster by upgrading elsewhere, once you start to have issues with the ignition then upgrade. AZ Zbum said there are Zs putting 400hps and are using the stock ignition.

*edit* im not trying to change the topic...i was merely giving another example of a fast car that has a stock ignition system. by posting that car, you guys don't believe me and had me defend it so i did. i didnt want to add more info of the car...its an addition of AZ-Zbum's 400hp 300zx stock ignition example. thats it, thats all it was.


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## dales86t (Nov 1, 2005)

Are u absolutely sure that its running the stock ignition system? i call BS on you for that remark as from personal experience, the stock bug ignition was a heap of crud. get ya facts right before you open your mouth, and also it doesnt say ANYwhere in your post that it runs stock ignition.


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## MrFurious (Oct 30, 2005)

I hear all of what you are sayin'. But just because you are getting a bunch of HP out of a motor with stock ignition system doesnt mean that you wont get improvement from a coil upgrade. This is sort of done in preperation for the big HP mods to come. I am at the point where I am going to have to buy some expensive upgrades like a turbo and piggy back ECU. Just getting some small stuff before I get the other stuff.


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

I am absolutely sure that the ignition on the bug is stock. I know it runs a stock ignition system because the guy lives about 15 miles away from me, he goes to the meets on tuesday nights every week. My turbo header for my vw is from him. I know my facts, i test distributors from Bosch when i worked at a race shop (lowbugget.com). I corrected the curves of the distributor, change when it advances, change the total advance this would vary on each customer's engine. They can use the stock style point ignition where the arm is pushed up and down by the rotor's cams, or they can upgrade to a piontless ignition made by comp-u-fire (i installed these upon the customer's request to add this on their order of distributor) you remove the old plate holding the arm and install a .014" shim on the rotor and then the plastic plate that has 4 magnets on it. the rotor gets clearanced after this. hmm what else? the Vacum advance distributors, theyll gain a couple of degrees of advance right off of idle to prevent them from stumbling off of idle, once they're off of it the canister isn't advancing anymore because there is no more vacum. The stock was a centrifugal distributor with a coil. thats all it is. I prepped customer's distributors for 5 months, monday to friday i was on the distributor tester for about an hour a day ripping new dizzys apart, doing minor adjustments to them changing curves and advance on them. I am not gonna go into detail the distributors that vw made from what year, what type of material they used for the cap, the rotor, the bushings, the main shaft housing, different types, centrifugal weight plates. I think thats more than enough facts.

wait...are you thinking its running the ORIGINAL ignition system ? its running a stock ignition system that is new, not the original one. I am sorry if i mislead anyone taht its the original ignition. I never said original until now, ive said stock many times. anyway, its a new off the shelf stock ignition system, a coil and a 009 centrifugal advanced point-style distributor.

" dales86t - and also it doesnt say ANYwhere in your post that it runs stock ignition."

1. "My point was that the car runs 11's and is using the stock ignition system." (previous post)
2. "money...you keep the stock ignition assemble a 2332cc engine "
3. "i was merely giving another example of a fast car that has a stock ignition system. by"

thats three times in the previous post that i mentioned it had a STOCK ignition system


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

MrFurious said:


> I hear all of what you are sayin'. But just because you are getting a bunch of HP out of a motor with stock ignition system doesnt mean that you wont get improvement from a coil upgrade. This is sort of done in preperation for the big HP mods to come. I am at the point where I am going to have to buy some expensive upgrades like a turbo and piggy back ECU. Just getting some small stuff before I get the other stuff.


exactly Mr Furious


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## lostmenoggin (Sep 10, 2005)

Zen31ZR said:


> Installing a coil with no other upgrades is, at best, a waste of money. You'll see exactly zero gain in fuel mileage and performance.





Zen31ZR said:


> Wow, you have totally got that absolutely wrong. Less time for the rotor to make its rounds = less time for the coil to charge up between firings. Electronic ignition makes it somewhat better, but it's still true that higher rpms equals a much weaker spark. No matter what coil you use. The only thing to do is to maximize dwell, which has nothing to do with the coil and that issue is dealt with by the ignitor pack. If you really want to see any gains for your ignition system, you'lll have to change the entire system. Simply slapping a bigger coil on won't do anything but cost you money. The coil is already matched to system output and dwell time by the factory engineers, installing a bigger coil will only upset the stock systems balance. You'll end up with less dwell time and an overworked 15 year old ignitor pack that might possibly burn out feeding more juice to that bigger coil.....





AZ-ZBum said:


> All aftermarket ignitions are pretty much the same principal. Claims are one thing, but dyno charts speak for the rest of us. I have dyno comparisons on my site for those inclined. Your money is better spent trying to achieve real power from real mods at first. After that, then an aftermarket ignition might help you get those couple extra ponies.



I thought maybe these parts didn't get read...


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

Just for reference, I was throwing down about 320 crank Hp, on the stock ignition system. Stock coil, stock wires, and $.99 Champion spark plugs. No sense of hiccupping or weak engine output even at 6500 rpm at 16 pounds of boost. I'd say at this point the coil is the least of anyones worries, especially on an NA car. Which BTW is the _same setup_ as on the turbo car.......


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## AZ-ZBum (Nov 21, 2004)

lostmenoggin said:


> I thought maybe these parts didn't get read...


He can't read. Or, if he can, he can't remember long enough for the information to get to his head.


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## nissan300zxmike (Nov 1, 2005)

earlier i was just adding examples of fast cars with a stock ignition. i dont know why i was put down so much


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## Zen31ZR (Mar 24, 2004)

nissan300zxmike said:


> earlier i was just adding examples of fast cars with a stock ignition. i dont know why i was put down so much


Consider the source.


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