# fuel management!!!!!



## Guest (Nov 19, 2002)

hello all.. i am in the process of turbocharging my 200sx se-r i now have a s14BB turbo and a stock det manifold... both portmatched.. i have a 3 " exhause some 500cc injectors and a cobra mass air meeter.. i am considering an alternitive to fuel management than the jim wolf.. i have a few friends who are great tuners and could tune a fuel computer such as stand alone or AFC... i my self dont see the point of spending 500 on a computer i alredy have and then every time i upgrade a part i have to send it in for 2 weeks and get it re programed spending another 200 for that.. so i am goign to go with the AFC for now... the only question i have is when i upgrade teh MAF it is going to send diffrent voltage signals to my ECU will the AFC be able to use that diffrent MAF eventhough it is sending diffrent voltages.. also the injectors i have are not msd's or nissans.. will they work with the AFC and finaly if tuned properly will teh AFC work for fuel management... 
thanks for any help i can get 
justin


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## cranium (Oct 8, 2002)

do you currently have the AFC? i was going to run a haltech on mine and at that point you are completely seperated from the stock ecu and you make adjustment though a laptop. or there is SDS that is roughly the same but doesn't require a laptop, it has its own programer and is only marginaly cheaper.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2002)

yes currently have the AFC i was also considering the haltech.. wich will probly come in the future.. i am looking to push 300hp wiht the SAFC anything above that i will then go to the haltech due to price diffrence i am looking to go with the AFC for now.. but i would like to upgrad the injectors mass air and fuel pump with the afc i just want to know if it is possible
thanks for the help
justin


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## tredragon (Nov 16, 2002)

I believe it is possible, don't know about reliability, but check out Emanage too. And please... let us know how it goes.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *hello all.. i am in the process of turbocharging my 200sx se-r i now have a s14BB turbo and a stock det manifold... both portmatched.. i have a 3 " exhause some 500cc injectors and a cobra mass air meeter.. i am considering an alternitive to fuel management than the jim wolf.. i have a few friends who are great tuners and could tune a fuel computer such as stand alone or AFC... i my self dont see the point of spending 500 on a computer i alredy have and then every time i upgrade a part i have to send it in for 2 weeks and get it re programed spending another 200 for that.. so i am goign to go with the AFC for now... the only question i have is when i upgrade teh MAF it is going to send diffrent voltage signals to my ECU will the AFC be able to use that diffrent MAF eventhough it is sending diffrent voltages.. also the injectors i have are not msd's or nissans.. will they work with the AFC and finaly if tuned properly will teh AFC work for fuel management...
> thanks for any help i can get
> justin *


Forget AFC's and the twiddle boxes, you end up fighting the ECU's self learning loop and get inconsistant running. The AFC does not have enough leeway to tune for a bigger MAF and way bigger injectors. The ECU will probably go into limp home mode when trying to compensate for injectors much bigger than 440cc, at least in my experiance. What 500cc injectors are you talking about? No one makes 500cc injectors unless you are talking modified RC injectors.

If you want a stand alone, get an AEM ECU, a lot of capabilty and very easy to tune with a great user interface.

Unless you are good at ECU tuning and have access to a true horiba or Motec broad band 5 wire sensor A/F meter, it is best to stick with a JWT ECU.

Mike


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2002)

my goal here was to keep cost down.. if i had endless funds i would get a haltech... the jim wollf to me is a joke.. why spend 500 to get the ecu programed.. then wehn i change injectors or MAF i have to send it back in and have down time on my car.. i just dont like that idea at all.. by the time i had the damn thing bought and tuned once or twice i could have bought my standalone by then... and had 10 times more control as well as the freedom to tune it when evey and on the fly... as far as the injectors they are toyota mr2 injectors they came out of a turbo charged mr2 from i dont know what year... if the ecu wont handle it... here comes for m y second question.. what if i am shooting to use 370cc injectors from a 300Z and keep the stock MAf until i decide to run more power... the next upgrade i do will include the haltech.. as well as a larger turbo... if needed as i said i am runnig a s14 turbo it should be pretty good as far as boost goes... thanks for any help i might get


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2002)

ok boys AEM doesnt make theyr computer for Nissan....


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2002)

i just checked out the e manage.. it seems like a good system any thoughts?


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

Doesn't AEM have a universal unit? I am using the AFC currently in cunjunction with a BB ECU. I plan on seeing how much power I can get out of it consistantly before I switch to something else. A friend of Mine John Huh's turbo spider made 395 Hp AFC tuned in the SCC shootout for 400 hp cars, and was voted the most consistant of the 4, which included Shaggys turbo 200.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2002)

not sure.. i went to aem's web page and looked at applications.. i dindt see any universal ones in there.. i dont think there is becaues it is a plug and play ecu replacement... as far as the afc goes... i want to chang the MAF and Ijectors so it may make a diffrence on how well it will work


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## Katana200sx (May 13, 2002)

aem makes their system for everything. i beleive it is compatible w/most every car...just they don't make wiring harnesses for some vehicles and they will have to make one for you or something like that. jwt isnt a joke though...they are very good at what they do as the mike that posted above can vouch for. i do however share your thought on if i am going to spend $500+ to get my ecu reprogrammed and have to keep sending it off, why not just buy a system that replaces the whole ecu.


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

Aem universal system hasnt been released yet. They have updated there software which includes Autotune now tho. This enables those with a W/B O2 to punch in the desired a/f ratio... and the ecu tunes for it. Check this thread out http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=316594&page=1
Or another option is getting the W/B O2 and a e-manage. Use the extra slot for the 2nd maf to datalog the O2 while driving for real time feed back and cross reference the voltage to the rpm. That obviously is for safety not power. Tuning for power is on a dyno.


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## javierb14 (Jul 9, 2002)

> my goal here was to keep cost down.. if i had endless funds i would get a haltech... the jim wollf to me is a joke.. why spend 500 to get the ecu programed.. then wehn i change injectors or MAF i have to send it back in and have down time on my car.. i just dont like that idea at all.. by the time i had the damn thing bought and tuned once or twice i could have bought my standalone by then... and had 10 times more control as well as the freedom to tune it when evey and on the fly... as far as the injectors they are toyota mr2 injectors they came out of a turbo charged mr2 from i dont know what year... if the ecu wont handle it... here comes for m y second question.. what if i am shooting to use 370cc injectors from a 300Z and keep the stock MAf until i decide to run more power... the next upgrade i do will include the haltech.. as well as a larger turbo... if needed as i said i am runnig a s14 turbo it should be pretty good as far as boost goes... thanks for any help i might get


JWT=plug&play...u can make a lot of reliable power very easily.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2002)

JWT's ECU is far and away the best plug and play solution. You will never get your car to run as well with a standalone system as it will with a JWT ECU.

As far as 370cc injectors and a stock MAF - 250 HP is the max HP you'll be able to run. Both the MAF and the injectors will be completely maxed out at that point.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *my goal here was to keep cost down.. if i had endless funds i would get a haltech... the jim wollf to me is a joke.. why spend 500 to get the ecu programed.. then wehn i change injectors or MAF i have to send it back in and have down time on my car.. i just dont like that idea at all.. by the time i had the damn thing bought and tuned once or twice i could have bought my standalone by then... and had 10 times more control as well as the freedom to tune it when evey and on the fly... as far as the injectors they are toyota mr2 injectors they came out of a turbo charged mr2 from i dont know what year... if the ecu wont handle it... here comes for m y second question.. what if i am shooting to use 370cc injectors from a 300Z and keep the stock MAf until i decide to run more power... the next upgrade i do will include the haltech.. as well as a larger turbo... if needed as i said i am runnig a s14 turbo it should be pretty good as far as boost goes... thanks for any help i might get *


An AFC can compensate for 370cc injectors ok but has proablems with larger ones. Don't get a haltech, they are one of the worst stand alones out there. Haltec, PMS suck. A Tech 3 is pretty good for the money, it has a nice interface, fairly easy to program.

An S14 turbo is pretty small on the exhaust side although it has a ball bearing center section. A GTI-R turbo is the best cheap turbo to bolt onto a SR20.

Mike


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2002)

my goal is 300hp i plan on doing auto x's with the car what woudl be a good way to go ? and cost worthy


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *An AFC can compensate for 370cc injectors ok but has proablems with larger ones. Don't get a haltech, they are one of the worst stand alones out there. Haltec, PMS suck. A Tech 3 is pretty good for the money, it has a nice interface, fairly easy to program.
> 
> Mike *


Mike say if you get a bigger maf and bigger injectors? Wouldnt they negate each other to a point, then have the afc correct for the difference? Ive read of a good example where this has happened on a MKIII Supra. That someone has hit 622whp on a Lex afm and upgraded injectors with the S-afc to control fueling. Others border 500whp consistently. If it works for them wouldnt it be possible for us as well. Im just curious since my JWT program isnt as great as posted by others.


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

I hear speedpro is a good engine management system. I've also heard some people have great success with SDS stand alones. 



morepower2 said:


> *An AFC can compensate for 370cc injectors ok but has proablems with larger ones. Don't get a haltech, they are one of the worst stand alones out there. Haltec, PMS suck. A Tech 3 is pretty good for the money, it has a nice interface, fairly easy to program.
> 
> An S14 turbo is pretty small on the exhaust side although it has a ball bearing center section. A GTI-R turbo is the best cheap turbo to bolt onto a SR20.
> 
> Mike *


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

I tend to disagree Zak. From my understanding JWT tunes their ECU's to run super rich, now that may be good for reliablity sake, it isn't for making HP. I for one would rather run tighter Air fuel ratios to obtain more power, then run rich, and not get the most out of my motor. Just IMHO. 




Zak91SE-R said:


> *JWT's ECU is far and away the best plug and play solution. You will never get your car to run as well with a standalone system as it will with a JWT ECU.
> 
> As far as 370cc injectors and a stock MAF - 250 HP is the max HP you'll be able to run. Both the MAF and the injectors will be completely maxed out at that point. *


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## cranium (Oct 8, 2002)

there is also Motec engine managment systems that are only marginal more expensive. and from what iv'e read they are the end-all beat-all of stand alones. i whole heartedly agree with the ability of tuning your own car when you need it. in the long run its way cheaper. and as far as "not" being able to tune your car to the ability of JWT, ill have to call BS on that. anything is possible with time and a dyno. just because JWT is the most widely accepted ECU for our cars doesn't mean that some one cant tune any better. like mike said "I for one would rather run tighter Air fuel ratios to obtain more power, then run rich, and not get the most out of my motor." JWT has liability issues so they can't tune the shit out of the ECU for fear of being sued for blowing up some ones motor. 

good luck with the stand alone, i hope to someday hear your results.

my $.02


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

psshhgoesmysr20 said:


> *I tend to disagree Zak. From my understanding JWT tunes their ECU's to run super rich, now that may be good for reliablity sake, it isn't for making HP. I for one would rather run tighter Air fuel ratios to obtain more power, then run rich, and not get the most out of my motor. Just IMHO. *


Not super rich, just somewhat rich in the 11:1 range for pump gas. In california or wherever there is only 91 octane, you don't have much choice.

JWT also has race gas programs that run in the mid 12's and you can set up a dual mode ECU to swtich between pump and race gas programs. My Z and my SE-R have this feature.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

cranium said:


> *there is also Motec engine managment systems that are only marginal more expensive. *


More like many times more expensive! The AEM has nearly all the same features and is way less money.

I do like the Motecs abilty to change the shape of the igntion driver output waveform. This can really help when running trigger fickle electronic igntions like MSD.

Too bad I can't afford a Motec! Except maybe a Motec exhaust.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

psshhgoesmysr20 said:


> *I hear speedpro is a good engine management system. I've also heard some people have great success with SDS stand alones. *


Speedpro kicks ass. Speedpro, Autech, and AEM are my favorite affordable stand alones. SDS is on my suck list with the Link and Haltec. One of my buddies never was able to get his car to run right with the SDS and no one I know with it has what I consider to be a well running car. The resolution is bad and its clumsy to program. It is cheap though.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *Mike say if you get a bigger maf and bigger injectors? Wouldnt they negate each other to a point, then have the afc correct for the difference? Ive read of a good example where this has happened on a MKIII Supra. That someone has hit 622whp on a Lex afm and upgraded injectors with the S-afc to control fueling. Others border 500whp consistently. If it works for them wouldnt it be possible for us as well. Im just curious since my JWT program isnt as great as posted by others. *


I never tried changine both the MAF and injectors and tuning around that. I did try a car that had 370's and a stock ecu and got it to run sort of ok but when the injectors were upgraded to 440's, the adjustment was so far off the car would go into limp home mode.

Also the AFC fights the Alpha self learning control if you go to far and the car runs inconsistantly if you tweak too much. I think the AFC is only good for doing some minor fine tuning to an already good program.

I think that many people that are complaining about JWT tuning have some other issues with the car. Like ignition problems, unmetered air leaks, Open BOV's, dirty MAF sensor hot wires, MAF grounding, etc. On my own car, I swore it was too rich because it was acting rich but when Clark and I tried to tune it, it just got worse. The problem was the MSD not working right with a Classic. Since then I have gotten several friends to switch from MSD to crane and they all have perfectly running cars now.

You don't happen to have an MSD do you? Every car with an MSD ecu that was supposedly running too rich that I sent back to JWT to be checked was found to be running too rich due to some other problem, honest! The supposed broadband A/F meter that some dynojets have started some of these rumors. Those A/F meters are so off its not funny as are the A/F meters that you can buy from Haltec and Autometer. The only ones you can trust for tuning are Motec and Horiba.

Mike

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *my goal is 300hp i plan on doing auto x's with the car what woudl be a good way to go ? and cost worthy *


JWT is the safest and most cost effective.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *ok boys AEM doesnt make theyr computer for Nissan.... *


You use their universal one.

Mike


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## Andris (Apr 30, 2002)

couple of comments.

I don't believe AEM's universal unit is out, but the Box itself is exactly the same as all the others. You can buy any of them and with a pinout wire it up for your car. However, if you buy one, the one to get is the Supra. It has the most extra auxiliary inputs and outputs. You will need a Supra ECU connector also. You won't be getting any basemaps with it either (or with any other standalone for that matter).

The motec is way expensive and not worth the trouble in my opinion. In my limited experience I found it to have a shitty interface and was unintuitive to set up. For the money, i think most people will be best off with the AEM or TEC 3. If you want to go cheap, the Greddy Emanage is a thousand times better than any of the other ghetto piggybacks like the AFC. You can map both spark and fuel, datalog, change MAF, injectors, maptrace... as mike would say .. "I'd hit it"

andris
Stunna in training. word


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2002)

so if i up grade the MAF and tha injectors and slap on an e manage.. wich i found for 300 online woo hoo !!! that is a damn good deal... ne ways that should get my car running good? i have a friend who is very very good at tuning.. he is a big dsm guy.. had a 93 talon runnin 11.5 in the 1/4 with a haltech in it.. ne ways.. if that sounds like a deal ill hit it.. like a stripper in my bedroom


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *so if i up grade the MAF and tha injectors and slap on an e manage.. wich i found for 300 online woo hoo !!! that is a damn good deal... ne ways that should get my car running good? i have a friend who is very very good at tuning.. he is a big dsm guy.. had a 93 talon runnin 11.5 in the 1/4 with a haltech in it.. ne ways.. if that sounds like a deal ill hit it.. like a stripper in my bedroom *


You still have to worry about fighting the self learning loop and going so far off the base map that you trigger limp home mode unless Greddy really figured something out here.

I suggest calling Greddy for tech help and see how big of a MAF and Injector they tell you you can go. I don't have direct experiance with the E-Manage so its best to call them.

Mike


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2002)

aite plays and playettes.. i called greddy they told me that you can switch out anything.. maf hast to be nissan maf but you can put in a larger on.. there is a window where you put in teh stock maf and then put in the new maf size and the computer comprimises.. and that goes the same for the injectors you put in the stock size and then the new size


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> You will never get your car to run as well with a standalone system as it will with a JWT ECU


 I have a difference in opinion on that comment. Though I have had success with JWT's computer set ups for 2 of my vehicles, I have found greater success in my SDS systems. If you're not a tinkerer and don't care to fiddle around with #'s, then I would recommend a JWT set up, but if you know a little about your engine and timing and want a broader spectrum on on the spot tuning, then a standalone system of some sort would be the ticket. I'm not trying to advertise for or down-play anyones systems, I'm just merely implying that JWT computers are not for everyone and neither are standalone systems. I personally chose the SDS because I had had enough of sending my ecus back to California and had enough of the factory harness in my engine bay. I gambled with SDS after reading their website, ordered a system and bought 4 more after the success of my first one. I guess it's to each his own. BTW, my car has A/C, P/S, cold start and I can adjust it anytime I damn well please 1st time on a dyno for a power check with a CA18DET in my 1990 (R.I.P) sentra, the car put down 312.5whp spiking 18psi and settling to 15psi. Not bad from a little 1.8 with no dyno tuning.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2002)

I believe my statement is still true though. With a standalone system you WILL need to readjust it periodically to compensate for weather conditions or other variables Since the JWT ECU uses the MAF, it requires no adjustement and their program is a lot better than Nissan's stock ECU program. It will always run perfectly in all conditions, with the obvious exception of component failure like a bad 02 sensor or something else.

And that's really the point - when I said "run well", that's what I was talking about. No adjustments, drives better than stock all the time regardless of temperature and weather.

if you need to adjust your settings, obviously a standalone is a better choice. but you will never get the consistancy out of a standalone that a JWT ECU will give you.

Your experience is unique because JWT didn't have a program already made for your setup. However if you have an SE-R and you do an FMAX kit or a DET, the JWT ECU will handle it beautifully.


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

Im not sure about other standalones but the AEM I believe runs maf type sensors. You can change it to reading kpa by adding a map sensor but thats an option.


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> Your experience is unique because JWT didn't have a program already made for your setup.


 This is true as my request wasn't out of the question, but was never requested by anyone else. So I can honestly say (I think), I got the 1st U.S. spec pulsar ECU upgraded by JWT. Since I was the first, I took the trial and error beating for everyone that might be interested so rest assure that JWT is competent in reprogramming ECUs for 1987-90 Pulsars.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *so if i up grade the MAF and tha injectors and slap on an e manage.. wich i found for 300 online woo hoo !!! that is a damn good deal... ne ways that should get my car running good? *


Let's bring some of this back to reality here.

IIRC you listed your goals as saving money over the JWT and to get it running better.

OK, the price of admission here is $300. Now you have to tune it. That means dyno time. How much are you willing to spend there?

Just getting this system will allow you to get your car running (if you are reasonably competent). Running good? Hey, no guarantees. Running better than with a JWT ECU? Better get to that dyno.

I don't think anyone will argue that JWT has _the_ best maps anyone could create. They are probably pretty close, but leave some margin for safety. Now, to get more power than the JWT ECU you need to tune that much closer to the edge. That means risk of a big BOOM. Remember, it's easier to screw up maps than it is to get them right. While it might be possible to hit a great combon w/o a dyno, that's more pure luck. So, now we are down to dyno time. By the time you get done with the dyno, you'll have spent way more than you would on a JWT ECU.

But wait, you say you want to change components down the road. It costs $100 to get a new program from JWT once your ECU has been modified by them. Can you retune (as good or better than JWT) for less than that in dyno time?

Ask yourself these questions and answer honestly. I'm not saying JWT are the almighty Gods of tuning. But most people delude themselves when it comes to cost and ability to tune a stand-alone. There are people who want to do things the "hard way" simply because they want to learn and want the experience. That is a good enough reason (just remember, you are putting your engine at risk each time you tinker). I for one am building my own race car for these reasons despite the best advice of others to buy one. But, I know my reasons very well, have asked myself the right questions, and have answered honestly.

Just do the same with yourself. Don't delude yourself. Tinkering can be a lot of fun, but if it's your daily driver, it's often more fun to just drive the damned thing without hassle.

Now if you ask yourself the right questions and answer honestly and still want to bang your head against a wall, er, tune your own, good luck (sincerely).


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Zak91SE-R said:


> *JWT's ECU is far and away the best plug and play solution. You will never get your car to run as well with a standalone system as it will with a JWT ECU.
> *


I disagree.

For the $ and performance potential of the Apex Super AFC..... it blows away JWT.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *JWT is the safest and most cost effective.
> 
> Mike *


Thats your opinion.................if you think paying $500-600 for a ECU that runs rich is better than using a Super AFC that can run right go ahead but for $300-320 for a Super AFC is much more cost effective and you wanna talk about safe.............are you trying to say a Super AFC isn't safe? Well since we compare safeness to richness then the stock ECU would be the safer of the two. Anyone can make a car run rich (safe), but it takes more skill to make it reliable at the edge ($500-600) is not enough incentive for JWT I guess. Why is JWT the safest? 

I tell you why the Super AFC is safe because you control whats safe not someone else.

Quit trying to convince people JWT is the only way to go because he's not.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2002)

for the guys that say go with the afc... what is your opinion on switching the MAF and Injectors?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *I disagree.
> 
> For the $ and performance potential of the Apex Super AFC..... it blows away JWT. *


No it does not due to these facts.

1. The AFC cannot compensate for larger than 440cc injectors, the ECU will go into limp mode if you try because the MAF signal will be too out of whack at low engine speeds and pulse widths. There is only so much you can cut the maf signal to reduce pulse width at idle and low rpm.

2. The AFC fights the ECU self learning control if you try to change the mixture more than 10-15% which will result in incosistant running and mixture. Not the greatest thing in a high power high boost motor. The ECU will probe around what it reads from the O2 sensor. vs what other signals it is reading from other sensors and will try to readjust to closer to the base map perioducaly. Ever notice that on some days an AFC car with big injectors, etc will idle rougher or not feel as snappy?

3. The AFC has a harder time dealing with a different MAF and injectors for the reasons above.

4. The AFC cannot control speed cut, rev limit and turn off pesky functions like AIV enrichment.

5. The AFC can only adjust fuel in parametric two dimentional bands. The JWT system has a 16x16 table for much higher 3d resolution. This is very important for drivabilty and accurate fuel delivery.

6. The JWT ECU retains the stock factory quailty sensors, connectors and wiring that is properly shielded from EMF, etc. This is far superior to the ghetto wiring jobs I see on many stand alone units.

These issues especialy the first two make the AFC more suited as a fine tuning device. An AFC does by altering, what is called in Nissan maps, the QA table. The QA table can control mixture in a round about way. The best way to do things to avoid the first two faults is the way that the factory and JWT does it. The QA table is tweeked for the propertiers of the MAF being used, and where the MAF is placed in the inlet tract, etc that can have an affect on MAF reading. Then the injector size constant (a bit of code in the stock Nissan ECU) bit is tweeked for the size injectors being used. Finaly the injector invalid time constant is modifed(which varies from brand of injector to brand of injector). This help assure good driveabilty and low speed charicteristics.

KWT (warm up enrichment) KTS (cranking enrichment) and other parameters can be changed to suit the injectors also. The AFC only solves half of the tuning problem as well. It can tune fuel but not the ignition curve. The JWT system fully 3d maps the spark advance ( just like stock obviously), the AFC has no igntion control at all. JWT can alter the spark map, the advance upon throttle opening, warm up advance, retard under boost, etc, just like how the factory does it.

You cannot approach the sofistication of this with a AFC.

Plus to properly tune an engine, you need a true broad band a/f ratio meter. Horiba and the 5 wire Motec sensor are the ONLY ones currently avalible that are truely accurate on the market. A/F meters like Autometer, Haltec, et,al that are only 3 or 4 wire are only accurate around 14.7:1 and are off by several ratios away from stoic. Same thing with the A/F meters that come with some dynojets. Don't fool yourself, its really hard to get tuning really right at home blasting up and down the street with no A/F Meter and dyno. Its not imposible but its very hard to do it better than JWT can like this at home. I am a very good tuner and I know I cannot do better than JWT with the tools a typical hobbiest has.

A pro charges usualy over $100 per hour for dyno time and even more for tuning time. Add this to the cost of whatever you are trying to do.

I like AFC's for fine tuning on cars that have no other means of fuel managment. I particularly like using them to get some of the burbles that a FMU can put in the power curve for instance. Or getting a MAP equipped car like a Honda to run right after a cam change. In my opinion, thats where an AFC does best.

These are the facts and there are a lot of opinions out there as well. There is a difference between fact and opinion. I have played with both the AFC and JWT systems and there is a good reason why all of my cars are JWT equipped. I could afford to get any twidel box or stand alone ECU system I want but I use JWT exclusivly.

Mike

574 RWHP 300ZXTT Powered by JWT
380 FWHP Turbo Sentra SE-R Powered by JWT
176 FWHP All Motor pump gas burning Street Car Powered by JWT
Sentra SE NASA SR Class Road Race car powered by JWT
Wife's Pathfinder Powered by JWT!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *I tell you why the Super AFC is safe because you control whats safe not someone else.
> 
> Quit trying to convince people JWT is the only way to go because he's not. *


OK, Give me some facts, facts not your personal opinion on why the AFC is better than a JWT ECU. I am all ears.

Mike


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

1. No one said to use the SAFC with injectors over 50% larger than what the ECU is programed for.

2. The SAFC does not fight the ECU self learning control if you try to change the mixture more than 10-15%. I never notice a day were were my car idles rougher. 

3. Any ECU or SAFC will have a problem if you over run the MAF, JUST DON't DO IT.

4. I don't need to control speed cut I can go past an indictaed 150mph and my redline is fine at 7500rpm. And there is no reason to turn off the AIV enrichment I am using a stock ECU.......if I wanted to run it correctly I would tap it into the exhaust system like it was in stock form but i'm not real concerned with that as it causes no problem.

5. Whatever dude, I bet my stock ECU works better than that, i'm only altering the MAF signal to bring A/F ratio back into the window of the stock ECU to have control over.

6. Doesn't apply to SAFC because the SAFC doesn't replace factory sensors it only alters the signal of the MAF sensor.

7. JWT is a waste of money.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *1. No one said to use the SAFC with injectors over 50% larger than what the ECU is programed for.
> 
> 2. The SAFC does not fight the ECU self learning control if you try to change the mixture more than 10-15%. I never notice a day were were my car idles rougher.
> 
> ...


You are saying that the AFC is better than than a JWT ECU.

1. If the AFC is better than the JWT ECU, why can't it compensate for larger injerctors like a JWT ECU can?

2. Yes it does, Do you have the abilty to read the alpha of the stock ecu to even know whats going on? Is this opinion or fact? You don't even have big injectors I bet so how do you know? I know for sure.

3. A JWT ECU can rescale the QA table so it won't overun the MAF no matter how much power you want to make.

4. B14's for example have speed cuts. An AFC cannopt do anything about that.

5. I bet your stock ECU does not work better than a JWT ECU. If you tap your AIV back into the exhaust like stock, the mixture will still be dead rich at idle. You don't even understand what the AIV does or how it works do you? For a guy that is just "book smart" like you say, I have gotten 540 wheel hp out of an SR20 with a JWT ECU and that was not even a serious motor. I have gotten over 400 hp out of bone stock SR20's. Lets see a stock ECU and AFC do that. I bet the motor goes BOOM! What have you gotten out of your stock ECU and AFC? Lets see some dyno charts?

6. You are right here when talking about an AFC.

7. Thats depends on what you want to do, an AFC is best as a fine tuning device, not primary tuning.

Even if the AFC was a perfect device for controling fuel which it is not, I don't see how you can argue that a device that only controls fuel is better than something that controls fuel and timing as well as a bunch of other things. The logic is just not there.

You are getting your opinion mixed up with fact on how the Nissan ECU works.

Mike


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## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

*I challenge you*

Put your money where your mouth is 

I have a DET'd 91 Classic with a T25 and 370cc injectors running a standard jwt turbo program. I will prove to you that the JWT ecu is not a waste of money. I challenge you to a dyno duel. I bet one thousand dollars (or more if you like) that my car will produce more power (and reliable on top of that) than yours. I will provide a dynosheet and a dated picture of the setup when it is dyno'd. 

I am dead serious about this. Now is your chance to show us all.



W10DET2020 said:


> *
> 7. JWT is a waste of money. *


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

I have a B13.

And your boring me.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: I challenge you*



Luis said:


> *Put your money where your mouth is
> 
> I have a DET'd 91 Classic with a T25 and 370cc injectors running a standard jwt turbo program. I will prove to you that the JWT ecu is not a waste of money. I challenge you to a dyno duel. I bet one thousand dollars (or more if you like) that my car will produce more power (and reliable on top of that) than yours. I will provide a dynosheet and a dated picture of the setup when it is dyno'd.
> 
> I am dead serious about this. Now is your chance to show us all. *


Dude, shut your mouth and save your money kiss ass.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: I challenge you*



W10DET2020 said:


> *Dude, shut your mouth and save your money kiss ass. *


Well, its a fair challange. I say if you really know your shit, you should have confidence to back up what you are saying. You claim is that the AFC is better than a JWT ECU right?

Mike


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## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: I challenge you*

You want to make me shut my mouth? There are two ways you can do that. You can take my challenge, make more power than me and take my thousand dollars. Or you can admit that you're being a little beotch about this and that you're wrong. You say you're right, now prove it. Be a man. Or tell me you're wrong. I'm not kissing anyones ass, I'm going to prove you wrong and that is that.

Luis



W10DET2020 said:


> *Dude, shut your mouth and save your money kiss ass. *


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

The both of you sound like typical JWT bandwagoneers. Kick rock boys.


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## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

*Kick Rock this.*

Instead of attempting to dissuade with snide vendor remarks and callously unwitty banter, why don't you accept the challenge presented?

-Ron


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

What the F&^% did you just call me! Speak english bro you drive a Sentra and I don't have a dictionary on hand.


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## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

Sounds to me that you're not man enough to stand by your argument. Whats wrong? I came to you with a serious challenge and you just start talking smack. Just admit that you are wrong and be done with it. You can't talk your way out of this. I have nothing against you, I just want to prove to you that the JWT ecu is not a waste of money. Don't you want a thousand dollars?

Luis



W10DET2020 said:


> *The both of you sound like typical JWT bandwagoneers. Kick rock boys. *


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *The both of you sound like typical JWT bandwagoneers. Kick rock boys. *


You sound like a guy that can't admit when he's been OWNED! If you can present your argument with some fact and logic that makes sence, then you would get some respect and teach us all something. Instead when you have been proven wrong, all you can do is reply with childish insults, flawed logic and personal opinions based on no experiance, presented as fact.

Come up with some wisdom for us or maybe listen and learn something.

Mike


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## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *What the F&^% did you just call me! Speak english bro you drive a Sentra and I don't have a dictionary on hand. *


My command of the English language is excellent. However, by your reply - I cannot fathom how you made it past the 6th grade? Has the public school system degraded that much?

-Ron


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *The both of you sound like typical JWT bandwagoneers. Kick rock boys. *


I would say that Luis is not a bandwagoneer. He is willing to back up the fact that a JWT ECU will make more power than a AFC and stock ECU on a motor with all else being equal. I am not a bandwhatever, I think I build some fairly powerful SR20's and VG30's.

We have the experiance and knowlege to back up what we are saying within the scope of this argument with confidence. So kick rock yourself.

Take up the challange if you know so well!

Mike


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## SuperblkStalion (Aug 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *What the F&^% did you just call me! Speak english bro you drive a Sentra and I don't have a dictionary on hand. *


damn dude, your a wuss if you can't back your shit up.

jr


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2002)

I don't know why people are always trying to re-invent the wheel. JWT has an awesome ECU that can be had for in my mind little money.

I don't know of any other products that you bolt on a turbo start the car and go hang with C5 corvettes with *NO* tuning necessary.

I guess in my mind the transmission is a weak enough link that you don't need to add an ecu that needs to be tweaked all the time into the mix.

If you think you can get your car putting down good #'s reliably without using a JWT ECU go ahead. But don't come crying to those of us who said it won't work. And for christs sake don't ask us whats going to work when you aren't going to listen to what we suggest.

I know many people who wish they had a company like JWT for their cars.

They have figured it all out. If you tell them I want a 3 bar turbo ECU with Water Injection remove the speed limiter, put the rev limiter at 7850, remove rear 02, remove egr, Cobra MAF, 50lb/hr injectors they can program all that at once for no extra charge. $100 program changes are not that big a deal. And you won't need a program change if you tell them what you want up front.

RK
98 Sentra SE T28 Turbo 285whp 
91 NX 2000
91 Sentra SE-R 344,144 miles


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

SuperblkStalion said:


> *damn dude, your a wuss if you can't back your shit up.
> 
> jr *


F%$# you, I run all over you.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

RaySeNxSE-R said:


> *I know many people who wish they had a company like JWT for their cars.
> *


Amen.

I wish JWT did Porsche 944 DMEs (ECUs). The Porsche "tuners" really blow goats in this area. Not a one has a chip worth a rat's ass. I can't even get one to get interested in working on a set of maps for intake, header, open short racing exhaust, and race gas. I know of a minimum of 10-15 people all running this same basic set-up (ITS and 944 Cup legal) that would drop the price of a JWT ECU today for a chip optimized for this set-up.

I'm getting close to either finding a stand-alone that will fit in the DME box (I know of one expensive one) or just hunting someone down who knows something about tuning and can hack the chip archetecture to work with me. Shit, I bet I'll spend $500 in dyno time trying to come up with good maps - even on top of the cost of a stand-alone if I go that route.

Mike, know of anyone who knows Bosch engine management and knows something about tuning?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *F%$# you, I run all over you. *


Ok I am calling you out then. Dyno challange, my car that sucks at only 380 WHP with a JWT ECU vs Yours with a Stock ECU and a AFC.

Go ahead, I am throwing down the gauntlet, run all over me, back up what you say. I bet I don't even have to redyno my car. I have a dyno sheet lying right here on my desk with more power than you can ever dream of making with a stock ECU and a AFC. I bet that all you can do is rant with 4 letter words and other displays of your knowlege.

To the rest of you who may be reading this, I am not bragging or saying my car is the baddest or anything like that, I apologize. There are many other street SE-R's more powerful than mine, some with JWT ECU's, some with other types of fuel managment.

My point is that my car is more powerful than one with a stock ECU and an AFC and that there is no way a stock ECU and AFC is better than a JWT ECU. That is my only point and only assumption.

Mike


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## SuperblkStalion (Aug 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *F%$# you, I run all over you. *


try me then young one, or get out of my way.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Geo said:


> *Amen.
> 
> I wish JWT did Porsche 944 DMEs (ECUs). The Porsche "tuners" really blow goats in this area. Not a one has a chip worth a rat's ass. I can't even get one to get interested in working on a set of maps for intake, header, open short racing exhaust, and race gas. I know of a minimum of 10-15 people all running this same basic set-up (ITS and 944 Cup legal) that would drop the price of a JWT ECU today for a chip optimized for this set-up.
> 
> ...


I belive there are many tuners in europe that have the sourse code for bosch boxes, however I am no expert in the specifics of Porsche tuning.

I find it hard to belive that thre is no one competent in the states that can do the 944. One thing fir sure is that Porsche people don't seem to know much for the most part, they usualy have people work on there cars and can't turn wrenches!

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuperblkStalion said:


> *try me then young one, or get out of my way.  *


Just admit that you have been OWNED! It will ease your pain.


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

I have run the S-afc with the Jwt computer for the past 2 years. Its been fine and done great but is very limited in tuning. I personally want to try out the E-manage. Its way ahead of the Afc in terms of tuning and the actual map size. The datalogging feature is a bonus as well as timing. This is from limited experience but regardless im still excited as the Afc is old. I do not plan to use it by itself but with my Jwt comp.
Concerning the widebands, I was curious what you think about the FJO W/B or the Techedge W/B. Both use a NTK 5 wire O2 that Honda uses in the cx model hatchbacks for fuel economy.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *I belive there are many tuners in europe that have the sourse code for bosch boxes, however I am no expert in the specifics of Porsche tuning.
> *


Actually, from what I gather, it's not a big deal getting the source code. Finding someone who really knows what the hell to do with it is apparently.



morepower2 said:


> *I find it hard to belive that thre is no one competent in the states that can do the 944. One thing fir sure is that Porsche people don't seem to know much for the most part, they usualy have people work on there cars and can't turn wrenches!*


It's not terribly different from the SE-R world actually.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what the problem is. There are a few tinkerers, but they aren't exactly analytical and systematic from what I can see. I've yet to hear of anyone tuning a NA DME on a dyno. Perhaps it's just lack of interest, but there is a HUGE unmet demand. Typical gains are about 2-3 hp on documented dyno testing. It's just strange. The only thing I can think of is that with the flapper door AFM it doesn't adjust to changes in VE like a MAF does. So, perhaps with the improvements to VE, the car leans out just enough to get close to optimal. I don't know. Pure monkey speculation.

Sorry about hi-jacking this thread. Then again, given some of the monkey poo being flung from one area, it can't hurt either.


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## SuperblkStalion (Aug 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *F%$# you, I run all over you. *


thats what i thought. you can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

Hey Mike, with the new AEM universal stand-alone fit inside the ECU box (even removed from the AEM box if necessary)?


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

.

Are you madd?


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## SuperblkStalion (Aug 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *.
> 
> Are you madd? *


why not direct your question to the person you are writing to dummy.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Geo said:


> *Hey Mike, with the new AEM universal stand-alone fit inside the ECU box (even removed from the AEM box if necessary)? *


I dunno but I don't think its easy. Usualy the case acts like a heat sink for the power transistors that the injecotr drivers use. Plus its surface mount and all conformal coated and stuff, could get ugly. I could be takking out of my ass also.

If you can get the address locations and come down here, I might be able to tune it. I might get a Motec meter soon.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *I have run the S-afc with the Jwt computer for the past 2 years. Its been fine and done great but is very limited in tuning. I personally want to try out the E-manage. Its way ahead of the Afc in terms of tuning and the actual map size. The datalogging feature is a bonus as well as timing. This is from limited experience but regardless im still excited as the Afc is old. I do not plan to use it by itself but with my Jwt comp.
> Concerning the widebands, I was curious what you think about the FJO W/B or the Techedge W/B. Both use a NTK 5 wire O2 that Honda uses in the cx model hatchbacks for fuel economy. *


Yeah the Nissan sentra CA uses the same sensor as well. I have been told that it is position senstive in the exhaust stream because of heater issues though. In short, I don't know for sure. I trust the Horiba and Motec but its mostly because I am familer with them.

Mike


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

[email protected] computer crashes for a day and I missed all of this Intense.......morepower2, I don't see you as a bragger or a cocky individual, but as someone who has learned through experience and is pretty sure of what he's talking about. I personally think JWT does a decent job with the SR20 gang, VG30 gang, KA24 gang and even the GA16 gang. And for most of these kids that just want to go fast with some reliability, JWT is a good route. But to those who want to take their tuning into their own hands, we all know which way to go. No hate on anyone, just time to move on to something new.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *And for most of these kids that just want to go fast with some reliability, JWT is a good route. But to those who want to take their tuning into their own hands, we all know which way to go. No hate on anyone, just time to move on to something new. *


Yep. Just don't kid yourself that doing your own tuning is going to be cheaper than a JWT ECU, and don't kid yourself that it is at all easy or simple to tune better than what you get with a JWT ECU either.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *[email protected] computer crashes for a day and I missed all of this Intense.......morepower2, I don't see you as a bragger or a cocky individual, but as someone who has learned through experience and is pretty sure of what he's talking about. I personally think JWT does a decent job with the SR20 gang, VG30 gang, KA24 gang and even the GA16 gang. And for most of these kids that just want to go fast with some reliability, JWT is a good route. But to those who want to take their tuning into their own hands, we all know which way to go. No hate on anyone, just time to move on to something new. *


I am not a bragger and am am glad you see it that way. People that express there opinions like fact and spread disinformation on the web that could cause people to hurt their motors are one of my pet peeves.

Cocky people who don't want to accept things and can only turn to insults when presented with facts are also one of my pet peeves. I love it when people that are true inovaters like yourself post. Its interesting and its a chance to learn something from someone who has done something new. I think your CA powered cars are cool!

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Geo said:


> *Yep. Just don't kid yourself that doing your own tuning is going to be cheaper than a JWT ECU, and don't kid yourself that it is at all easy or simple to tune better than what you get with a JWT ECU either. *


Dont worry George, Boost Boy is one of the few that actualy knows what he's doing and has gotten good results and posted them.

Mike


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Dont worry George, Boost Boy is one of the few that actualy knows what he's doing and has gotten good results and posted them.
> 
> Mike *


Cool.

I didn't mean it to be directed to him specifically anyway. It's was more a general statement. So many people think it's as cheap and simple as buying a little black box and the engine tunes itself or something, or that just driving down the road you can tune a killer engine. I know this is stupid, you know this is stupid and I'm sure Boost Boy does as well. Some people still just don't get it though.

I still wish I had a proven plug n play solution for the 944. If I can't find one or a cheap enough stand alone to fit in the ECU I may take you up on the offer. It's _really_ frustrating. Most Nissan folks just don't realize how good we have it.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

You all infected!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *You all infected! *


with what?


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

What I mean is your all followers!


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## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

If by that you mean we all have kickass cars that will make more power than yours yet won't explode.. Then I'd have to say you're right.



W10DET2020 said:


> *What I mean is your all followers! *


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Wow................I bet that was the first thing that came to mind.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *What I mean is your all followers! *


You mean we know how to build decent cars? Boost Boy has a stand alone and a CA18DET in his B12. How is that a follower?

I guess we should follow you instead? Do something thats not as good to be different? I guess being different is more important to you than making power.

Mike


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Im not talking about Boost Boy, and you don't need to follow me you seem to be doing quit well on your own, you are comfortable and thats all that matters.

Don't knock the Apex SAFC and call it unreliable because you don't know that, I sure haven't blown up an engine or had drivablity issues with it, in your eyes JWT is god, in my eyes he's
a smart buisness man that over charges for his 1 size fits all rich "safe" ECU. You want safety do it yourself!


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Im not talking about Boost Boy, and you don't need to follow me you seem to be doing quit well on your own, you are comfortable and thats all that matters.
> 
> Don't knock the Apex SAFC and call it unreliable because you don't know that, I sure haven't blown up an engine or had drivablity issues with it, in your eyes JWT is god, in my eyes he's
> a smart buisness man that over charges for his 1 size fits all rich "safe" ECU. You want safety do it yourself! *


Then take up Luis' challenge you blow hard.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

A Geo Storm you ever had your shit pushed in?


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Im not talking about Boost Boy, and you don't need to follow me you seem to be doing quit well on your own, you are comfortable and thats all that matters.
> 
> Don't knock the Apex SAFC and call it unreliable because you don't know that, I sure haven't blown up an engine or had drivablity issues with it, in your eyes JWT is god, in my eyes he's
> a smart buisness man that over charges for his 1 size fits all rich "safe" ECU. You want safety do it yourself! *


If you read my post, I am not knocking the AFC, I am writing about what it does best and why among other things. I am also writing about its limitations. I have a good working knowlege of how a Nissan's ECU works and have a lot of experiance tuning engines with stand alones, carbs, AFC's, VPC's etc. You are simply trying to justify your statement that an AFC is better than a JWT ECU which is simply wrong. Why can't you understand the facts and learn from it.

The AFC will make your engine unrelaible if you try to use it as your primary engine managment doing any sort of serious work. An AFC with a stock computer will not make more power than a JWT ECU on a turbo motor, thats just a fact. You make strong extreme statements and when you get called on it, instead of proving you are correct, all you can do is spout insults. At least try and be proven wrong. That will get you respect also.

As far as JWT ECU's running too rich, do you even know what an appropriate A/F ratio for a street turbo on pump gas is? How about on race gas? How do you measure your a/f ratio when tuning? When you hear people saying that JWT ECU's run rich, do you know what sort of ignition they have, is the bypass recirculated, is the PCV closed loop? Is the AAC circuit hooked up right? What about the AIV? There are many other things that can make a car run too rich.

All we want to know is that you are saying that an AFC plus stock ecu is better than a JWT ECU. A lot of us are sure you are wrong, you are sure you are right so we want you to prove it to us. Take up Luis and my challange.

I won't even bet you $1000 if you can't afford it. The loser just pays for the dyno and $200 bucks for the others wasted time. In fact I won't even go to the dyno, just post your dyno charts and I post mine. If you can make a stock ECU with AFC make more power than a JWT ECU, then you have a lot you can teach me and I am an idiot. The difference is I can admit when I am wrong.

How about that?

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *A Geo Storm you ever had your shit pushed in? *


Is that the best you can do? Insult someone? Prove us wrong and take up Luis's challange! We will kiss your ass if you win.

Mike


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## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

This thread is becoming a huge waste of time. We got this
W10DET2020 dude that is too scared to man up and prove his point. So what you're just gonna insult us all? Is that going to make you right? Just don't post anymore.. thats half as good as admitting you're wrong. Or take my challenge and everyone will kiss your ass if you win. 

With your thousand dollars I'll be able to get JWT ECU's for my other two cars.

Luis


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## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *A Geo Storm you ever had your shit pushed in? *


I know this question was meant for him, but out of curiousity - how old were you when you pushed or got pushed? Do you speak from experience? You must because your opinion is indisputable and is hard fact. Just like your S-AFC and stock ECU contention. How was it being someone's bitch? Or, rather - you like packing shit into bitches, don't you?

Damn man, you should just quit. There's already enough rope, time to hang yourself.

-Ron


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

A edo just start fisting yourslef until I get tired.............. dude your come back was so grade school and predictable just like all of your guys' responses.

Simple F&#%'s


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## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *What the F&^% did you just call me! Speak english bro you drive a Sentra and I don't have a dictionary on hand. *


Gotta keep it simple for someone that lacks mentally. 

Back to the challenge - are you man enough to take up the gauntlet thrown?

-Ron


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *If you read my post, I am not knocking the AFC, I am writing about what it does best and why among other things. I am also writing about its limitations. I have a good working knowlege of how a Nissan's ECU works and have a lot of experiance tuning engines with stand alones, carbs, AFC's, VPC's etc. You are simply trying to justify your statement that an AFC is better than a JWT ECU which is simply wrong. Why can't you understand the facts and learn from it.
> 
> The AFC will make your engine unrelaible if you try to use it as your primary engine managment doing any sort of serious work. An AFC with a stock computer will not make more power than a JWT ECU on a turbo motor, thats just a fact. You make strong extreme statements and when you get called on it, instead of proving you are correct, all you can do is spout insults. At least try and be proven wrong. That will get you respect also.
> 
> ...


Dude, quit trying to bedazzel (sp) someone, you ain't the only person with a brain. There are other people just as anal as you. 

So don't try an explain important little varibles like the hook up of the the above mentioned and what you forgot about the proper hooking up of the AIV and EGR solenoids minus the EGR and BPT valve hardware and EGT sensor with a stock DE ECU running on a DET, most people aren't anal about these things I admit thats why they go with JWT. Oh yeah the PCV system, I admit most idiot rice boys F*&^ this system up with a 15whp filter, basically disabling the system or better yet payinbg for a nice fancy oil catch can that's not even hooked up properly. 

These are WOT (open loop) ratios' from around 4,200 rpm to 7,500 rpm: 

I run roughly a 12.6 A/F ratio Turbo'd and when I was NA I ran a 13.6-7 A/F ratio NA, all on 91 octane. Never ever had a problem.

I never used race gas but I can imageine I have two choices turn up the boost to until I get that disired A/F ratio for maximum power or lean out the mixture to get more power, if I took I guess at I would imagine you could run a A/F ratio more consistant to a non-turbo car, but slightly richer say around 13.2-4 A/F ratio depending on how highthe octane .


----------



## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *A edo just start fisting yourslef until I get tired.............. dude your come back was so grade school and predictable just like all of your guys' responses.
> 
> Simple F&#%'s *


I will admit lowering to your level, it was the only way to evoke a response. All other attempts otherwise have proven to be a waste of time.

Okay kids, recess is over. Let's see if this guy has it in him to back up his shit, rather than push Geo's.

-Ron


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *A edo just start fisting yourslef until I get tired.............. dude your come back was so grade school and predictable just like all of your guys' responses.
> 
> Simple F&#%'s *


Since this is going nowhere, I would say, either back up your contention that an AFC and a stock ECU is better than a JWT ECU with some Data or just be quiet.

I mean if you can prove your opinion all the more respect to you and you can teach us all something. I would be the first to admit that I am wrong. So show me you are right. At least admit that you are not sure!

What I am against is people spreading disinformation on this forum, disinformation that can cause people to blow up their motors. Its ok to have an opinion and express ones opinion, but don't express opinion like its fact or you are going to be called on it by some of the experianced people on this forum.

Many experianced people don't agree with you, prove them wrong. The way you are responding to this thread just makes you look more and more stupid.

In fact if you don't come up with anything better than yo mama's I am going to ask that a moderator block this thread. To the rest of the people that may be following this thread in hopes of learning something or particpating in a more normal manor, I applogize. Maybe start a new thread.

Mike


----------



## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

edo said:


> *Gotta keep it simple for someone that lacks mentally.
> 
> Back to the challenge - are you man enough to take up the gauntlet thrown?
> 
> -Ron *


No, you dumb a%$.........see how simple you are, recognize that i'm playing with you. 

Back to the challenge

Back to the challenge

Back to the challenge

Shut up, so what if I said yeah, whats that gonna prove baby boy. I'm secure in my manhood ............ what about you?


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Dude, quit trying to bedazzel (sp) someone, you ain't the only person with a brain. There are other people just as anal as you.
> 
> So don't try an explain important little varibles like the hook up of the the above mentioned and what you forgot about the proper hooking up of the AIV and EGR solenoids minus the EGR and BPT valve hardware and EGT sensor with a stock DE ECU running on a DET, most people aren't anal about these things I admit thats why they go with JWT. Oh yeah the PCV system, I admit most idiot rice boys F*&^ this system up with a 15whp filter, basically disabling the system or better yet payinbg for a nice fancy oil catch can that's not even hooked up properly.
> 
> ...


Whatever, if you were as smart as you say you are, you would know that those other parts of the emissions system have nothing to do with running rich like the stuff I mentioned and understrand why.

What you are runing for A/F ratios should be right on but with no safety margin provided that you are not guessing but using a true broadband A/F meter. In fact with 91 octane they could be dangerous.

So are you up to the challange?

Mike


----------



## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Since this is going nowhere, I would say, either back up your contention that an AFC and a stock ECU is better than a JWT ECU with some Data or just be quiet.
> 
> I mean if you can prove your opinion all the more respect to you and you can teach us all something. I would be the first to admit that I am wrong. So show me you are right. At least admit that you are not sure!
> 
> ...



For one........... no bodys mama was disrespected, reguardless of what any of you say I won't disrespect your family members thats outta hand. 

Block this thread, I don't care, i'm just getting a kick outa all of you. 

Peace

JWT rules (I just did a power slide on my BMX)


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *No, you dumb a%$.........see how simple you are, recognize that i'm playing with you.
> 
> Back to the challenge
> 
> ...


What it will prove is that you are right! Obviously that is very important to you. We want to know if you are right as well!

It has nothing to do with manhood except maybe yours which you seem to want to prove.

Just stick to the facts. Lets see which sort of engine management is better. Many of us are reasonably certain that we are right, you are certain you are although you have no data to prove a single thing other than the fact that you resort to insults when your intellect runs out.


----------



## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

Over and over, time and again - your response is misdirected. Why do you always choose the path of distraction? Instead of playing games, let's see what knowledge you can impart. Seems to me that you have an avoidance issue. 

Let's test your hypothesis, S-AFC w/ stock ECU is better than JWT ECU. The litmus would be a dyno session with Nissan Consult to show state of tune throughout the powerband. We will then be able to see how your method stacks up with irrefutable raw, hard data.

That is the challenge. 

-Ron


----------



## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Whatever, if you were as smart as you say you are, you would know that those other parts of the emissions system have nothing to do with running rich like the stuff I mentioned and understrand why.
> 
> What you are runing for A/F ratios should be right on but with no safety margin provided that you are not guessing but using a true broadband A/F meter. In fact with 91 octane they could be dangerous.
> 
> ...


No, a missing or unconnected or blocked AIV sloenoid will effect idle A/F ratio and both the EGR and AIV solenoid can be hooked up properly minus the EGR valve and BPT solenoid. The stock EGT sensor should also be retained and routed back into the exhaust tract (a source of heat so that it can let the ECU now its warm) instead of just letting it hand there (like some morons (sp)) or better yeat forgetting about it all together.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *No, a missing or unconnected or blocked AIV sloenoid will effect idle A/F ratio and both the EGR and AIV solenoid can be hooked up properly minus the EGR valve and BPT solenoid. The stock EGT sensor should also be retained and routed back into the exhaust tract (a source of heat so that it can let the ECU now its warm) instead of just letting it hand there (like some morons (sp)) or better yeat forgetting about it all together. *


Yeah remember in one of my last posts I said the AIV will affect idle AF and you were disputing that?

On an OBDI car the EGR and BPT are non-detect items so you can just remove them and you won't get a check engine light, only the egr temp needs to get hot. I guess If you have an OBDII car, you might want it all hooked up even with the JDM manifold.


----------



## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

*What does it take....*

...to stand apart as a True Nissan or automotive Enthusiast?

I believe the willingness to share information openly and freely so that all may benefit. Please leave out the unnecessary comments, so that the crux of the matter be brought to light. If and only if, there is a way to tune consistently with S-AFC and stock ecu - you will have saved hundreds of people, proportionately equal amounts of cash by adopting your method. Please be a good citizen and share with us, your brothers in the Nissan Family.

-Ron


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *It has nothing to do with manhood except maybe yours which you seem to want to prove.
> *



Thats was a good come back. No.... Mike your right, you probably couldn't even fatham what it takes to become Marine, you'd probably write your congress man or mother of america.

8 years 
USMC


----------



## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

edo said:


> *Over and over, time and again - your response is misdirected. Why do you always choose the path of distraction? Instead of playing games, let's see what knowledge you can impart. Seems to me that you have an avoidance issue.
> 
> Let's test your hypothesis, S-AFC w/ stock ECU is better than JWT ECU. The litmus would be a dyno session with Nissan Consult to show state of tune throughout the powerband. We will then be able to see how your method stacks up with irrefutable raw, hard data.
> 
> ...


Where did I once say the SAFC is better than JWT! Tell me.

370cc JWT ECU
vs
stock 259cc DE ECU w/370cc inj.
=JWT wins in drivability but not nessesarily in a contest of speed.

370cc JWT ECU
vs
259cc DE ECU w/370cc inj. w/SAFC
The winner would be the guy with the best A/F ratio's and since JWT aren't adjustable you'll most likely lose this contest.


----------



## Guest (Nov 28, 2002)

Charlie (W10DET2020),

Damn - back on SR20DEForum, you seem to post some good and accurate info (well, except for your ideas on using bleed valves to increase boost, but that's IMO), but this behavior here on this forum completely changes your credibility in my mind. 

I'm sure you've seen this dyno chart before, but I would just like to add it so others following this thread can see. 










Engine management by.... <drum roll, please> a JWT ECU! 

Oh, and this is a straight up DET swap with the stock T25 turbo at the stock wastegate setting (reads 7psi on my gauge) with 370cc injectors. Note how nice and smooth the curves are. 

Can an S-AFC as you describe put down more than 205.9 whp peak with the same setup I have? Can it make the hp curve have more area underneath it? If someone could logically and clearly answer these questions for me - and the rest of the people that support JWT - I would opt to try out some sort of piggy-back system like the S-AFC or the GReddy E-Manage. Until then, I think my $500 was well spent. 

Just throwing in my facts free of any slander and jo mama jokes. 

Happy Thanksgiving everyone,


----------



## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Where did I once say the SAFC is better than JWT! Tell me.
> 
> 370cc JWT ECU
> vs
> ...


1. By implication, your previous posts have alluded to the inferiority of the JWT product on many points.

2. Your going from Point A to Point Z, and managing to leave out all tuning considerations in between - is what we're debating. How do you obtain the best A/F ratios? What are the best A/F ratios? Do you have access to a Motec or Horiba?

Do I sense an impending challenge acceptance?

Honestly, I'm just regurgitating at this point - but it seems that you've missed it each time it was presented.

-Ron


----------



## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

370cc JWT ECU
vs
stock 259cc DE ECU w/370cc inj.
=JWT wins in drivability but not nessesarily in a contest of speed.
And ''Leatherkneck" you are so correct on the tail-end of this statement. But I destroyed my girl's B12 and nearly my life in the process of proven this theory against a Ferarri. I saw an open highway and I opened my car up as wide as it can go just to prove to that guy in the Ferarri that I'll smack him up. Yeah, i won, but ultimately loss when the pole put me at dead stop xxx mph to zero just like that. You seem to be a pretty smart individual "W10DET2020" and my beliefs were correct when AntoniG posted: Charlie (W10DET2020),

Damn - back on SR20DEForum, you seem to post some good and accurate info (well, except for your ideas on using bleed valves to increase boost, but that's IMO), but this behavior here on this forum completely changes your credibility in my mind. 


So the point I'm trying to make is "Know when to say when". Take a step back, evaluate your experiences while posting in SR20DE forums and get back to that. It's okay to let go because no one here can do any harm to you. I personally enjoy the healthy conversation between all of you, but when we stoop to the kiddy crap name calling and things of that nature, we lose the focus of what this forum is intended for. If you feel you've argued your point to the best of your knowledge, let go. There's always someone that may know a little more and may not see things your way, so when asked to produce figures and facts and you don't have the "hard-core" data, it's okay to say, guys I know I'm correct, but I don't have the facts on paper and this will be done. I look forward to hearing from you more for you're an individual who likes to break out and try stuff on your own (Like myself) and all of this is cool, but remember that there are people here who wants input/info and not another battle royal. (LOL) You've ruffled some feathers on this thread and some of the guys have ruffled your feathers, but if you are truly a "Marine", it's okay to turn away from that do or die Motto for just a second so we can get on to more serious discussions. Mad Props to all of you for standing your grounds on this one because every now and then we need to vent our knowledge, but unfortunately, eveyone isn't going to agree. I'm not trying to play big brother just a fellow wrencher who don't want to see a good thing go 95 south!


----------



## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

And for those who don't know and I've stated this in other posts, it was with a JWT programmed ECU, 3 bar map, 50lb/hr injectors, nissan maxima AFM, nismo F/P regulator, T3/T04E 60-1 stage 3 turbo, front mount I/C, 300zxTT F/P and running 12 psi that I was clocked by a state trooper and nearly arrested for doing 173mph in a 55mph zone (Enough said). And though I'm not a big fan, JWT and his staff does an excellent job at what they do and I recommend that if you wanna upgrade and do it reliably with programs that are proven, the $$$'s spent with JWT will be well and worth it because popping motors and melting pistons is no fun. I've melted a few and if you decide to go standalone, it's no cake walk especially if you can't compute engine parameters and injector compatabilities as well A/F ratios and just plain 'ol knowing your engine.


----------



## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

You want to drag race? We do that too if you want, since you pussed out of the other challenge. Choose your contest of speed. I will only drag race on a drag strip. Bring it on. Prove yourself.



W10DET2020 said:


> *Where did I once say the SAFC is better than JWT! Tell me.
> 
> 370cc JWT ECU
> vs
> ...


----------



## SuperblkStalion (Aug 26, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Thats was a good come back. No.... Mike your right, you probably couldn't even fatham what it takes to become Marine, you'd probably write your congress man or mother of america.
> 8 years
> USMC *



you are such a p*ssy! why can't you just post facts? geez what a freaking retard! no wonder u had to do themarine thing, probably got your lunch money taken away everyday in school. throw down or shut the hell up boy.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Thats was a good come back. No.... Mike your right, you probably couldn't even fatham what it takes to become Marine, you'd probably write your congress man or mother of america.
> 
> 8 years
> USMC *


I know well what it is to be a Marine and I higly respect anyone who vollenters to serve our country in the military, especialy the Marines who are all volenteers, but what does your being a Marine have to do with this argument? I know they teach you in the Marines that everyone is worthless but a smart Marine knows when he's beat to retreat and regroup! I got a bunch of Marine friends . Anyway, I am thankful that you and others are there to protect our country.

But what does being a Marine have to do with a AFC and a stock ECU being better than a JWT ECU?

Mike


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *370cc JWT ECU
> vs
> stock 259cc DE ECU w/370cc inj.
> =JWT wins in drivability but not nessesarily in a contest of speed.
> *


The scope of this argument is that a stock ECU with a AFC is better than a JWT ECU which is so illogical its not posible. In the above combination, it is posible with really good race gas to make more power because the stock ecu has more advance and once the turbo and injectors tops out, the only way to boost cylinder pressure without going into the engine is to up the timing. But this is only with really good gas as I am sure you know.

If its pump gas, the JWT ECU std program is the obvious winner. Also with a race gas timing and fuel curve the JWT ECU would win with the above constraints as well. I mean the argument just makes no sence at all.

Mike


----------



## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Thats was a good come back. No.... Mike your right, you probably couldn't even fatham what it takes to become Marine, you'd probably write your congress man or mother of america.
> 
> 8 years
> USMC *


What the heck does any of this have to do with the career you've chosen? 

and who the heck is mother of america?


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Where did I once say the SAFC is better than JWT! Tell me.
> 
> *


Here ya go:

Quote
I disagree.

For the $ and performance potential of the Apex Super AFC..... it blows away JWT.

Quote
Whatever dude, I bet my stock ECU works better than that, i'm only altering the MAF signal to bring A/F ratio back into the window of the stock ECU to have control over.

Quote
JWT is a waste of money.


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *And for those who don't know and I've stated this in other posts, it was with a JWT programmed ECU, 3 bar map, 50lb/hr injectors, nissan maxima AFM, nismo F/P regulator, T3/T04E 60-1 stage 3 turbo, front mount I/C, 300zxTT F/P and running 12 psi that I was clocked by a state trooper and nearly arrested for doing 173mph in a 55mph zone (Enough said). And though I'm not a big fan, JWT and his staff does an excellent job at what they do and I recommend that if you wanna upgrade and do it reliably with programs that are proven, the $$$'s spent with JWT will be well and worth it because popping motors and melting pistons is no fun. I've melted a few and if you decide to go standalone, it's no cake walk especially if you can't compute engine parameters and injector compatabilities as well A/F ratios and just plain 'ol knowing your engine. *


Well said, I mean what you do is way different from the status quo but you always make good posts and don't come out confrontational from the get go.

I mean your way is the right way to disagree. Your posts are interesting and I always read them. You speak from experiance and if you beg to differ, you have results to back you up. You make worthy posts, not garbage. 

Mike


----------



## Geo (Apr 30, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *A Geo Storm you ever had your shit pushed in? *


Dude, just because _you_ are into that sort of thing, it doesn't mean _we_ want to know about it.

It would take a lot more man than you to get away with it.

Oh, and another thing.....

You claim to be a Marine. An honorable challenge has been laid down that you are running away from. I've never known a Marine to do that. What do you do in the Marines? Clean the head?


----------



## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

edo said:


> *2. Your going from Point A to Point Z, and managing to leave out all tuning considerations in between - is what we're debating. How do you obtain the best A/F ratios? What are the best A/F ratios? Do you have access to a Motec or Horiba?
> -Ron *


He does his tuning from a apexi turbo timer that reads voltage from the O2. It also has an option for a/f ratios based upon the voltage. 
Personally I doubt there is anyway you can truely tune you a/f with a turbo timer; as Mike said anything but a true W/B can be used for tuning. Any tuning for power should be done on a dyno as maf voltage means nothing as signs of a power increase. Thats my experience as Ive told you I hit 93% with the cobra maf/444cc injectors/safc. The best with my street tuning was a 106mph. Then w/o the Safc I have 84% maf voltage but hit a 108mph weighing 3k tho but with higher compression, 5 degrees timing and ect. 
Driveability wise both were good. I actually think my settings were great as the car felt faster before but trap speed dont back it up. Also the ecu really fights the Safc. It does take awhile, like 3-6 months but nothing resetting the ecu doesnt take care of. I got the afc tho cause of the rich condition that I complained about. I was never able to get 30mpg, the car wouldnt idle, 12mpg, plugs would fouled out and ect. Safc cured all that with some street tuning and I never lost a race with it. But I did blow my ring lands. Regardless it going as Im selling it. Jwt will do everything, but will accompany the emanage for an extra map for the track with proven dyno results only.


----------



## SuperblkStalion (Aug 26, 2002)

Geo said:


> *Dude, just because you are into that sort of thing, it doesn't mean we want to know about it................................... What do you do in the Marines? Clean the head? *




Ooooooh, you got clowned. come clean my toilet!!!!


----------



## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *He does his tuning from a apexi turbo timer that reads voltage from the O2. It also has an option for a/f ratios based upon the voltage.
> Personally I doubt there is anyway you can truely tune you a/f with a turbo timer; as Mike said anything but a true W/B can be used for tuning. *


Imagine the impact of any repeated use of race gas has upon the o2 sensor. What little accuracy that may have been present in the beginning will surely degrade over time, barring any user interaction to prolong its useful life.

*



Any tuning for power should be done on a dyno as maf voltage means nothing as signs of a power increase. Thats my experience as Ive told you I hit 93% with the cobra maf/444cc injectors/safc. The best with my street tuning was a 106mph. Then w/o the Safc I have 84% maf voltage but hit a 108mph weighing 3k tho but with higher compression, 5 degrees timing and ect. 
Driveability wise both were good.

Click to expand...

*Its great to see you've had some luck using AFC to fine tune your JWT ECU. Looks like you are in need of more latitude.

*



I actually think my settings were great as the car felt faster before but trap speed dont back it up. Also the ecu really fights the Safc. It does take awhile, like 3-6 months but nothing resetting the ecu doesnt take care of. I got the afc tho cause of the rich condition that I complained about. I was never able to get 30mpg, the car wouldnt idle, 12mpg, plugs would fouled out and ect.

Click to expand...

*I'm not sure what vintage your ECU was or what ignition used, but as Mike has discovered - MSD type boxes aren't that compatible with our motors. I'm sure you've read that improvements have been made recently, as well as switching to Cranes, have addressed some if not all these conditions.

*



Safc cured all that with some street tuning and I never lost a race with it. But I did blow my ring lands.

Click to expand...

*Props to you for being bold in the search for more power. Had I been in a similar situation, I would be trying anything to rectify my tuning woes as well. I value the experiences of all that share. I learned long ago that S-AFC isn't the magic box apex'i purports through careful and tedious researching through corroborating posts that span several lists and forums. I am sorry that you were met with that temporary setback.

*



Regardless it going as Im selling it. Jwt will do everything, but will accompany the emanage for an extra map for the track with proven dyno results only.

Click to expand...

*Good luck with this, please keep us posted!

-Ron


----------



## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> You make worthy posts, not garbage.


 Thanks Mike Over the months I've gotten a chance to view posts regularly and there's a pattern of screen names who consistantly put out user-friendly information. I'm almost sure everyone has something better to do than sit at his/her computer and argue with a bunch a folks that they can't see let alone that they don't know. I try and make the moments I sit at my computer count because I don't know everything and am interested in what other people has to say about certain topics. If I'm to be engaged in an argument that's not getting anywhere, it's a waste of my cyber-time and this forum's bandwidth. But if I have credible stuff that I can back up, I'll show it and then move on. But a challenge like the one that was presented for a dyno shoot-out was a great time to put up or shut up. I wouldn't even participate in that because you run a risk of tearing up your motor trying to prove something that you're not getting paid to prove. A'pexi could care less who blows their motors using their product just as long as you bought it. At least Ben and Jim himself did take time out of their busy schedules to listen to me and my situation with my experimental ECU programmed by their GURU "Mr Steppler". He (Jim) listened, I sent it back and both ecu's performed way better than I though they would. My standalone sucks on gas mileage (luckily it's just a weekend car). I got about 28mpg with the JWT set up. Once again, I'm not on JWT's tip, but I have to give Props where Props is due. I mean there's not a bunch of people in this world who can do things for nissans like he does and I guess that's why his business is so successful. They even have a guy in Perth, Australia nicknamed "Lumpy" who represents JWT and he is a really nice guy who knows his stuff. So for all that still chose to do things on your own with those expensive boxes (VPC,SAFC,etc) nobody is mad at 'cha, but be extra careful with dealing with luck for lady luck has many faces and she will lay claim to the death of your engines (been there, done that). It's your money and your time, don't waste it!!!!!!

Dee


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *I wouldn't even participate in that because you run a risk of tearing up your motor trying to prove something that you're not getting paid to prove. My standalone sucks on gas mileage (luckily it's just a weekend car). *


Dee,

How come your SDS give poor milage? Is your closed loop function working?

As far as dyno contests, I have plenty of confidence that I won't hurt a motor with small turbos. None of the cars I have tuend have ever hurt a motor yet. I tend to be conservative but I also have a good idea what a motor can take.

Mike


----------



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *He does his tuning from a apexi turbo timer that reads voltage from the O2. It also has an option for a/f ratios based upon the voltage.
> Personally I doubt there is anyway you can truely tune you a/f with a turbo timer; as Mike said anything but a true W/B can be used for tuning. Any tuning for power should be done on a dyno as maf voltage means nothing as signs of a power increase. Thats my experience as Ive told you I hit 93% with the cobra maf/444cc injectors/safc. The best with my street tuning was a 106mph. Then w/o the Safc I have 84% maf voltage but hit a 108mph weighing 3k tho but with higher compression, 5 degrees timing and ect.
> Driveability wise both were good. I actually think my settings were great as the car felt faster before but trap speed dont back it up. Also the ecu really fights the Safc. It does take awhile, like 3-6 months but nothing resetting the ecu doesnt take care of. I got the afc tho cause of the rich condition that I complained about. I was never able to get 30mpg, the car wouldnt idle, 12mpg, plugs would fouled out and ect. Safc cured all that with some street tuning and I never lost a race with it. But I did blow my ring lands. Regardless it going as Im selling it. Jwt will do everything, but will accompany the emanage for an extra map for the track with proven dyno results only. *


Thats esepcialy foolish unless you are just tuning around closed loop! The O2 sensor is only accurate around 14.7:1. It is off by several ratio points away from Stoic. I mean thats almost like not tuning at all! I would rather read plugs. The only thing you can tell is if you are not grossly lean, the voltage will peg at 13:1 or so, mnaybe even leaner. There is no freaking way you can tune much like that, at least not safely.

MAF voltage is a good way to estimate gains in power if you have no dyno access. It is also a good way to figure out if you are running out of injector if you don't have consult or a Tech-Tom. For stock MAF's with no subtractor circuit and rescaled fuel map and QA table 5.1 volts means you are off the readable part of the map and your injectors are 100% open.

When this happens the car will inevitably start to lean out. If you have good fuel, you can go a bit more before something bad happens but only if you have good fuel.

Mike


----------



## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> How come your SDS give poor milage? Is your closed loop function working?


 I actually run it in open loop (my bad) And because of how demanding I am on the top end, instead of using closed loop from say 1500-4000 (for fuel efficiency) I say screw the 02 sensor and rely on the parameters that I input. Maybe when I finish reassembling my girl's new b12, I will activate the closed loop function because the other car drank gas like a V12 and performed like one too And as far this is concerned


> But a challenge like the one that was presented for a dyno shoot-out was a great time to put up or shut up. I wouldn't even participate in that because you run a risk of tearing up your motor trying to prove something that you're not getting paid to prove.


 it was aimed at the challenger and the challengee. Somebody would've won and ultimately, somebody would've lost (possibly a motor). People who blow their motors on the dyno obviously knows they've done something wrong. And with that, they gets no sympathy from me.............


----------



## Thomas Reynolds (May 1, 2002)

AntonioG said:


> *Charlie (W10DET2020),
> *


OMG! Charlie that's *you* posting this ugly crap! Man am I surprised! Dude I have concurred with most of your postings on SR20DEForums, plus you have backed me up, but man you have really showed your ass here! On those forums you have appeared to be a very friendly person contributing good knowledge to others and sharing info your engine project as you worked on it.

These are really good people here on this thread, whom most are some of my best friends which I also know in person....none of which are full of bullshit. 

Word of advice and don't take this the wrong way but it's time to stick your foot in your mouth. Seriously. You can still come out of this with dignity and have these folks as your allies if you choose so.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *And as far this is concerned it was aimed at the challenger and the challengee. Somebody would've won and ultimately, somebody would've lost (possibly a motor). People who blow their motors on the dyno obviously knows they've done something wrong. And with that, they gets no sympathy from me............. *


It would not be me blowing up a motor on the dyno, never have yet, even with 540 hp. It just a matter of knowing when to quit.

We are going to try to blow up a stock SR20 soon just to see what it will take to hurt one thats properly fueled and tuned. So far over 400 wheel hp on a totaly stock motor is the record. I can't belive how strong SR20's are.

Mike


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> We are going to try to blow up a stock SR20 soon just to see what it will take to hurt one thats properly fueled and tuned.


 Keywords here fueled and tuned! It's funny that guys buy a name brand piece of equipment (ie the little magic boxes), get it hooked up and think it's insurance for their motors. I see more guys here talking about how they blew their engines on the dyno and they seem to be proud of it. A couple of turbocharged KA's, RX-7's and a few SR20 have been the latest victims. One friend of mine blew so many SR20's, that hw's now going back to the KA for his 240. Whereas one firend I have with an SR20 (That I installed) has had his engine in his car for 3 years and no mechanical engine problem, but the tranny is another issue. Leaning out on the SR is usually disastrous once the deck is pitted. Sounds like you have what it takes to make SR20's reliable If you live down here in Miami you would make a killing (Poor Kids). I tried to blow my girls CA18 when I took it to the dyno (stock internals) by revving it all the way to 9000rpm in 3 & 4th gear and it didn't even scratch it. When you know what you're doing, you won't have to have your car pushed off the rollers.


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## cranium (Oct 8, 2002)

i just read this whole thread and i really don't want to start a pissing match again but..... as far as stand alone are concerned, does anyone believe that they have more "potential" for power than the "this is what i got, please program me an ECU". 
i currently have a JWT ECU and am for the most part happy with it (fuel probs that i may start another thread for) but ultimately everyone must concur that, with time, money, and the willingness to blow an engine that you can extract more power with a standalone (im not talking about a AFC but something like SDS, haltech, or motec).
please understand this is not an argument about JWT vs. all but just a reasonable assumption that with the above mentioned things, that one with GOOD knowledge of tuning,(i.e. morepower2, boost boy) could tune a standalone better then JWT for (and this is the catch) THEMSELVES. i say for themselves because if they are responsible for there own engines then they don’t have to be responsible for there programming on other peoples engine and possibly gernading them, they can run the programming to a "potentially" more powerful engine.

i am trying to be humble in my opinions because i have no hard evidence to back up my opinions or assumptions. but just think if you had the time, money and willingness to blow engines, how much fun it would be.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

cranium said:


> *i just read this whole thread and i really don't want to start a pissing match again but..... as far as stand alone are concerned, does anyone believe that they have more "potential" for power than the "this is what i got, please program me an ECU".
> i currently have a JWT ECU and am for the most part happy with it (fuel probs that i may start another thread for) but ultimately everyone must concur that, with time, money, and the willingness to blow an engine that you can extract more power with a standalone (im not talking about a AFC but something like SDS, haltech, or motec).
> please understand this is not an argument about JWT vs. all but just a reasonable assumption that with the above mentioned things, that one with GOOD knowledge of tuning,(i.e. morepower2, boost boy) could tune a standalone better then JWT for (and this is the catch) THEMSELVES. i say for themselves because if they are responsible for there own engines then they don’t have to be responsible for there programming on other peoples engine and possibly gernading them, they can run the programming to a "potentially" more powerful engine.
> 
> i am trying to be humble in my opinions because i have no hard evidence to back up my opinions or assumptions. but just think if you had the time, money and willingness to blow engines, how much fun it would be. *


This is no pissing match and you don't really need to be humble nor agree with what others say. Good points are good points no matter what. The thing is if you are rude, cockey and arrogent right out of the box, then threads can get ugly like this one got and if you can't back up what you say, prepare for an on-line beat down. Opposing viewpoints are always welcome as long as it stays civil. Difference of opinion, presented intellegently is how we all learn and move the state of the art foward.

You are correct, a good stand alone properly tuned, and I stress properly tuned, can produce more power than a base off the shelf JWT ECU. However, JWT has a dyno and can create custom tuned ECU's that should be just as good as anything no matter what the combination.

One of the things about MAP equiped stand alones in that they are not as good for compensating for different atmospheric conditions as a MAF equiped system. In drag racing, it is not uncommon for some teams to change the programing and tuning as condition change or for variances in air density at different tracks at higher altitude like Bandamere or Palmdale.

One of my future projects will probably be building a Quick Class/Hotrod class drag car powered by a SR20 with a MAF equipped JWT ECU to see how well the system works with really high power and boost levels. If I can get the funding I will anyway. Right now, most of my time and money is going towards road racing but I am trying to get sponsers lined up to build a serious Nissan drag car.

The cool thing about the MAF is that it tends to tune itself and can compensate for a wider varity of conditions. Andri Miko has used the JWT ECU to high power levels than I have and perhaps he can add something here. I know he lurks here on this forum sometimes. My personal experiance stops at 540 hp and 28 psi of boost.

What I always have wondered though is that although having a MAF seems like its a superior solution to fuel any car, why is it that no F-1, Cart or any super high level of Motorsports cars use a MAF equipped system? They are all MAP. Thats a question that I would like some insight on.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Boost Boy-

Would you like to have your cars featured in NPM? I think they are important very different and unique. We are always looking for east coast cars to feature.

Mike


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> Andri Miko has used the JWT ECU to high power levels than I have and perhaps he can add something here. I know he lurks here on this forum sometimes.


 I am familiar with Andreas and I frequently cross paths with him here in the hood! He is one of the biggest SR20 followers I know, so his input is definitely welcomed, anytime.


> Would you like to have your cars featured in NPM? I think they are important very different and unique. We are always looking for east coast cars to feature.


 I would be very honored to accept such a prestigious invitation and thanks for the offer. I'm in the process of building the new B12 for my girlfriend which will be ready by 12/10 and my own B12 should be done before christmas. That accident was a major set back, but happy to say that I'm pretty much healed and not maimed and that to me was most important. I'll keep you posted!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2002)

okey i think i have made my decision to go with the JWT i just have one final ? for you all.. jwt gets a work order such as your 
MAF and injector size and progrmas the map... however how do they make your car run consistantly in diffrent atmospheres as well as diffrent weather and such... just curious
thanks


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *however how do they make your car run consistantly in diffrent atmospheres as well as diffrent weather and such... just curious
> thanks *


Actualy with the MAF, thats what the JWT ECU does best. They run consitantly even though atmospheric conditions might change


Mike


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2002)

will jwt be able to program the ecu to any injector?? i have some toyota 500cc injectors that are side feed... will jwt be able to program the ecu to them?
they came out of a MR2 turbo
thanks


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *will jwt be able to program the ecu to any injector?? i have some toyota 500cc injectors that are side feed... will jwt be able to program the ecu to them?
> they came out of a MR2 turbo
> thanks *


They can come close but for best results you should send them the injectors so they can run them on their test bench to get an accurate idea of how those injectors work. For really best results it is better to stick with JWT's injector recomendations as the invalid time and true flow is known on those.

You also need to know if your injectors are high or low impedance. Low impedance injectors will require ballast resistors or you may blow your ECU drivers.

Mike


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2002)

what is a way i can test the injectors for low or high impenence


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *what is a way i can test the injectors for low or high impenence *


Measure the impedance of the coil with a DMM. I think Toyota's are low impedence, but I am not absolutly sure.

Mike


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Measure the impedance of the coil with a DMM. I think Toyota's are low impedence, but I am not absolutly sure.
> 
> Mike *


Yea the 440cc inj out of the MR-2 turbo are low impedence Denso injectors.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *Yea the 440cc inj out of the MR-2 turbo are low impedence Denso injectors. *


Probably gonna need balance resistors then.

Mike


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2002)

where can i get thoes and do you know how much they cost??? also when i get the JWT ecu can they do it then?


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *where can i get thoes and do you know how much they cost??? also when i get the JWT ecu can they do it then? *


You can get the resistors from JWT. Others have had success from using a resistor box that comes factory from a 88-91 Honda civic, MR-2 Turbo and I think one of the older model 4cyl NIssans used the resistor box as well.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2002)

i looked up the box.. do i need just one?? how in tha hell do i hook that thing up ?


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

Damn, this debate got a little out of hand, W10 you can't win a debate by turning it into a pissing contest. Mike, sorry I haven't gotten ahold of you while I've been home on leave. I came down with a bad cold, and I'm trying to get well before I have to take that flight back to Italy (which is Thursday). 

As far as the AFC/JWT debate, I havent tested my sr20 to its fullest potential, but I did run 13.6 at 8 pounds of boost at LACR on street tires, with a stock ECU and AFC controlling 370 CC injectors. I haven't touched my car in over a year an a half, and I'll be coming home for good in May of next year. I will be running a T3T04E 50 Trim, .50/.63 A/R with 50lb MSD injectors, and 300 ZX MAF. I will not be using the stock ECU, I've found the BB ECU to be better suited for use with the AFC. I will not be using the TPS to adjust the AFC like before, I will inturn be using a standard GM MAP sensor, as it will add fuel with boost as opposed to throttle possition. This will keep me from bogging off the line from those ultra rich conditions. I've always wondered why before, I had problems with bogging of the line, but now I know why, The AFC was reading from the TPS and was dumping fuel into my intake also causing horrible driving conditions. With the MAP sensor this will no longer happen as well as the excessive backfiring I've had in the past. 

Mike, I would like to take you up on your offer to see once and for all how well the AFC can perform, My car won't make 380 hp with the .63 housing but I would like to show you what it truely has to offer. I am not fully sure how well the AFC will do with the Se-R, but I know a lot of 240 guys' with sr20 swaps that have seen massive results with the AFC compared to 240 guys using the JWT ECU. Again, I am not using the stock ECU I am using a BB ECU, but if you would like to join us while we tune the car, I would greatly appreciate your pressence. Let me know bro.


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> My car won't make 380 hp with the .63 housing but I would like to show you what it truely has to offer.


 I think you can, but that's just my opinion. I wish I could be there to see the AFC/BB ECU take on the JWT ECU. Classy post, bro'! Finally, Somebody with a pair of balls to put it on the line to attempt to prove a theory!


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *You can get the resistors from JWT. Others have had success from using a resistor box that comes factory from a 88-91 Honda civic, MR-2 Turbo and I think one of the older model 4cyl NIssans used the resistor box as well. *


That might actulay be a good idea if its the right resistance.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

psshhgoesmysr20 said:


> *
> As far as the AFC/JWT debate, I havent tested my sr20 to its fullest potential, but I did run 13.6 at 8 pounds of boost at LACR on street tires, with a stock ECU and AFC controlling 370 CC injectors. I haven't touched my car in over a year an a half, and I'll be coming home for good in May of next year. I will be running a T3T04E 50 Trim, .50/.63 A/R with 50lb MSD injectors, and 300 ZX MAF. I will not be using the stock ECU, I've found the BB ECU to be better suited for use with the AFC. I will not be using the TPS to adjust the AFC like before, I will inturn be using a standard GM MAP sensor, as it will add fuel with boost as opposed to throttle possition. This will keep me from bogging off the line from those ultra rich conditions. I've always wondered why before, I had problems with bogging of the line, but now I know why, The AFC was reading from the TPS and was dumping fuel into my intake also causing horrible driving conditions. With the MAP sensor this will no longer happen as well as the excessive backfiring I've had in the past.
> 
> Mike, I would like to take you up on your offer to see once and for all how well the AFC can perform, My car won't make 380 hp with the .63 housing but I would like to show you what it truely has to offer. I am not fully sure how well the AFC will do with the Se-R, but I know a lot of 240 guys' with sr20 swaps that have seen massive results with the AFC compared to 240 guys using the JWT ECU. Again, I am not using the stock ECU I am using a BB ECU, but if you would like to join us while we tune the car, I would greatly appreciate your pressence. Let me know bro. *


Yeah for sure, that would be very interesting. 370's are within the AFC's ability to control without going into limp home. I have never tried using a MAP sensor to control the AFC so this should be interesting. I was wondering why you didnt contact me. Getting sick sucks.

Another point that I forgot to bring up and someone pointed out to me is that since the ECU uses MAF voltage to do the load estimation and if you tweak on the AFC too much, then your position on the load axis of the map will be out of whack which is very serious for timing control. This is perhaps the biggest problem with the AFC, duh.

The way you are doing it , keeping the MAF and adding a MAP sensor would address this and solve this. I am very interested in how this might work. How are you going to control timing?

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

boost_boy said:


> *I think you can, but that's just my opinion. I wish I could be there to see the AFC/BB ECU take on the JWT ECU. Classy post, bro'! Finally, Somebody with a pair of balls to put it on the line to attempt to prove a theory! *


I dunno, I think its pretty hard, my personal best with a .63 was 340 whp, this was on a stock motor. After 20 psi, the hp did not go up much and the power really rolled off abouve 6500 rpm.

Mike


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Please.....................I'll show you to, the SAFC, DE ECU combo will be equal to are better than a JWT 370cc program since you'll swear JWT is the only way to go.

OK hears the deal, when this takes place I want a equal car, meaning same amount of mods. 

My engine is internally all stock, no cams or anything else and I have no pulleys, a have a stock T25, stock 370cc, stock fuel psi 3bar, and a stock U12 TMIC working against me. I don't care is you have a FMIC, just makes it sweeter for me, and I have heavy ass 17-7 1/2 MOMO GT2's rims if that makes any difference on a dyno but who cares about that. You bring me a comparable car and will see who makes more horsepower. A............... sorry if I pissed alot of you guys off, I was testing the water so to speak.

A, Mike, much respect to you and everyone else. 



> psshhgoesmysr20
> Damn, this debate got a little out of hand, W10 you can't win a debate by turning it into a pissing contest.


I know! I was having a little fun, sorry.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Please.....................I'll show you to, the SAFC, DE ECU combo will be equal to are better than a JWT 370cc program since you'll swear JWT is the only way to go.
> 
> OK hears the deal, when this takes place I want a equal car, meaning same amount of mods.
> 
> ...


Ok I'm sorry for getting out of hand as well. Maybe we can do it at the next SERCA dyno day.

Mike


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## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

W10-

Knowing that you're one of our boys in the armed forces, did it have to take a comrade in arms to get through to you? It seems like you only became civil after hearing it from a PSSHgoesmySR20...

Please let's keep this from exploding.

I think your groundrules are a great next step towards finding out the limits of both forms of engine management. However, I hope you're flexible when the challenger has input on what they should be before continuing with the duel.

-Ron


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

OK...................let me wipe my tears...............blow my nose.............can we be civil know?.....................OK i'm done, Yeah, OK I'll do my best to make the next SERCA dyno day and if I think I got my ass handed to me by a JWT ECU set-up car, I give the person I loose to some good ole Marine Corps push-ups since I talk alot of shit, how's that!


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## edo (Nov 26, 2002)

you're a fuckin cool guy when you don't insult us...

-Ron


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

edo said:


> *you're a fuckin cool guy when you don't insult us...
> 
> -Ron *


I can be................but i'm realy not a dick for record, I like to help people out and listen and absorb knowledge from people like Mike and a few other "gods" out there that know there shit.


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

> I give the person I loose to some good ole Marine Corps push-ups since I talk alot of shit, how's that!


 And don't forget to shout "Marine Corps" after every rep!


> you're a fuckin cool guy when you don't insult us...


 He probably was like this because he had duty or he didn't get laid. Us Marines get like that when we don't get what we want He has now gotten laid during his "96" and now he's straight (Welcome back Devil Dog) (I'm just screwing around guys).........

Marine Corps Retiree


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *OK...................let me wipe my tears...............blow my nose.............can we be civil know?.....................OK i'm done, Yeah, OK I'll do my best to make the next SERCA dyno day and if I think I got my ass handed to me by a JWT ECU set-up car, I give the person I loose to some good ole Marine Corps push-ups since I talk alot of shit, how's that! *


Yeah ok and I'll wash your car if I loose!

Mike


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

No, i'm not a Marine anymore (other war dogs say, what that!!!!! what once a Marine always a Marine, yeah yeah yeah) I love the Marine Corps just as much as the next Marine.

Don't push it. 

Yeah, ok Mike if I loose I'll deck towel the parking lot too! and clean the dyno rollers with a tooth brush and if I like you alot i'll Never Dull your valve cover.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

This was to funny to pass up!


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

[email protected]! That's a nice ass


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## Luis (Apr 30, 2002)

That'll be tough to duplicate. I wont yank my pullies off for this. But at least we can *compare* dyno's. Since this isn't for money anymore. Are we going to Mansville after this Mike? 




W10DET2020 said:


> *
> 
> OK hears the deal, when this takes place I want a equal car, meaning same amount of mods.
> 
> ...


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

I think the BB ECU (Turbo ECU) in conjunction with a Crane Hi 6 should take care of the timing for me. But if I have to, I may knock on wood and go with the apexi ITC, but hopefully I wont have too. 



morepower2 said:


> *How are you going to control timing?
> 
> Mike *


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2002)

so resistor??? how do i hook one of the honda ones up...


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## boost_boy (May 25, 2002)

Might be easier to use one out of the 89-90 nissan sentras or the 87 pulsar SE with CA16DE since there nissan components.


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## SuckiT (Jun 13, 2002)

200sx se-r-t said:


> *so resistor??? how do i hook one of the honda ones up... *


I dont have the wiring diagram with me now. Its at my friends shop. I can have it to you by this weekend or try Honda-Tech, they should have the diagram listed. 

Hey Mike Im interested in this GM Map setup your trying to run with the Afc. When you get a chance can you post up you fuel settings and ect. Also can you explain why it will run so much better. Cause fuel is takin or givin through rpm regardless of tps voltage. The TPS is used for the high/low map. The Map sensor will then change it to seeing load, but how do you differentiate what voltage means what load? To me this solves part-throttle/ full boost and full throttle/ no boost situations only, correct me if im wrong. Ive read how it works but still dont grasp why it should.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *Thats esepcialy foolish unless you are just tuning around closed loop! The O2 sensor is only accurate around 14.7:1. It is off by several ratio points away from Stoic. I mean thats almost like not tuning at all! I would rather read plugs. The only thing you can tell is if you are not grossly lean, the voltage will peg at 13:1 or so, mnaybe even leaner. There is no freaking way you can tune much like that, at least not safely.*


*

Before someone try's to flame me, look I am doing this for the people who have absolutly no clue in this area and I know this is something very debatable and it always will always be because the fact the narrow bands weren't designed to be super accurate out side of stoich.

Well anyways, here is a compiled list of voltages and there corresponding A/F ratios that I have gather from many different searchs. It should be noted that in many cases in both import and domestics turbo charged vehicle, for general street conditions you should shoot for something in the neighborhood of 12.5:1 A/F ratio fo maxium power and reliability. And for closed loop cruising operation and emissions the optimum A/F ratio is in fact 14.7:1 or .450mv, it should also be noted that .450mv is widely accepted as the stoich mv.

It should also be noted that assuming a A/F ratio of 12.5:1 or for that matter any A/F ratio is equivalent to a particluar voltage number is wrong, this could only be verified by way of a dyno assisted by a wide band O2 and even then the narrow band O2 is subject to give off different readings at different temp but this does not mean that you actual A/F ratio your car is recieving has changed since the ECU doesn't adjust mixture in open loop. But if anything this works for us so to speak because as temp rises voltage will drop making you think you are running leaner and you would probably richen it up.

One last thing I observed is many peolple that tune this way from both side of the house both import domestics seem to shot for the .850mv -.950mv range for wide open throttle open loop.
.850mv = more of a risk than .950mv FYI

I personaly run a .920mv at WOT open loop and I have no problems. I have experimented with alot of diferent voltages, for instances .960-80mv seems to be way way way to rich in my case. 

Examples: (my opinion this is not to bad to start with, )
Volyage - A/F ratio
.10mv = 17:1 
.30mv = 16:1
.50mv = 14.9
.70mv = 13.8
.90mv = 12.7

Exapmle: (my opinion this is very conservative, a little to much) 
Voltage - A/F ratio
.10mv = 17.0 
.20mv = 16.0
.30mv = 15.5
.40mv = 15.0
.50mv = 14.7
.60mv = 14.6
.70mv = 14.5
.80mv = 14.2
.90mv = 13.2
1.0mv = 12.5

Examples: (my opinion still conservative but reasonable, maybe a little to much on the rich side)
Volatge - A/F ratio
.10mv = 17.1
.20mv = 16.5
.30mv = 16.0
.39mv = 15.4
.49mv = 14.9 
.59mv = 14.4
.69mv = 13.8
.78mv = 13.2
.88mv = 12.7
.97mv = 12.1

These examples won't help if you buy a preset A/F ratio guage meaning they all ready have the A/F ratios set in stone so my advice to you if you do by one of these preset A/F ratio guages, from the info mation above chiise your A/F guage accordingly.

Or just buy the Apex TT which lets you program a specfic voltage to a A/F ratio or vise versa.

For the record I know the O2 is only accuarte around 14:7.1 and therefore is not the best way of tunning but more than a few people tune this way, yes it is dangerous but obviously it lets you know when you rich or lean, maybe not as..........wait, no, not as good as a wideband but I haven't blown a car up this way, maybe because I take some caution and I don't go about it blind. 




MAF voltage is a good way to estimate gains in power if you have no dyno access. It is also a good way to figure out if you are running out of injector if you don't have consult or a Tech-Tom. For stock MAF's with no subtractor circuit and rescaled fuel map and QA table 5.1 volts means you are off the readable part of the map and your injectors are 100% open.
Mike

Click to expand...

Thats good to know! The SAFC can give you MAF voltage and a % of flow to. When I was NA I flowed roughly 60%, now being turbo roughly 77% during a hot day and 83% at nights or cooler days depending on temp (remember I have a U12 TMIC w/no hood scoop) at stock boost, I have flowed a maximum of 97% and ran out of injector, indicated by mid 14's on the ApexTT But I guess after reading above that depends on what a guestimated a 14.1 to be, but anyhow obviously ran out of injector.*


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Don't no why that came out bold, my guess is it hit BOLD botton!


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2002)

yea man that would be cool if you can e mail it to me 
[email protected]
thanks


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> *One of the things about MAP equiped stand alones in that they are not as good for compensating for different atmospheric conditions as a MAF equiped system. In drag racing, it is not uncommon for some teams to change the programing and tuning as condition change or for variances in air density at different tracks at higher altitude like Bandamere or Palmdale.
> Mike *


Ok, so in the case of pssssssh's set-up since he using a BB ECU, guess it would be the same for a DE ECU although not as "good", it would be the best of both worlds so to speak, meaning that the MAP sensor would be like a over lay to a already self adapting MAF and only add more fuel when needed (boost) via the SAFC since the ECU well have no direct input from the MAP since its MAF based. Bare with me I'm trying to understand this.


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## psshhgoesmysr20 (May 1, 2002)

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/foolafc.html This should answer your MAP sensor with the AFC questions. As far as my setting for the AFC, I don't have those yet. I wont be starting my project till mid May of next year. I hope this helps you out. 



SuckiT said:


> *I dont have the wiring diagram with me now. Its at my friends shop. I can have it to you by this weekend or try Honda-Tech, they should have the diagram listed.
> 
> Hey Mike Im interested in this GM Map setup your trying to run with the Afc. When you get a chance can you post up you fuel settings and ect. Also can you explain why it will run so much better. Cause fuel is takin or givin through rpm regardless of tps voltage. The TPS is used for the high/low map. The Map sensor will then change it to seeing load, but how do you differentiate what voltage means what load? To me this solves part-throttle/ full boost and full throttle/ no boost situations only, correct me if im wrong. Ive read how it works but still dont grasp why it should. *


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

W10DET2020 said:


> *Before someone try's to flame me, look I am doing this for the people who have absolutly no clue in this area and I know this is something very debatable and it always will always be because the fact the narrow bands weren't designed to be super accurate out side of stoich.
> 
> Well anyways, here is a compiled list of voltages and there corresponding A/F ratios that I have gather from many different searchs. It should be noted that in many cases in both import and domestics turbo charged vehicle, for general street conditions you should shoot for something in the neighborhood of 12.5:1 A/F ratio fo maxium power and reliability. And for closed loop cruising operation and emissions the optimum A/F ratio is in fact 14.7:1 or .450mv, it should also be noted that .450mv is widely accepted as the stoich mv.
> 
> ...


Your tables are way off! If you can borrow or look at the Bosch handbook and see the response curves of typical O2 sensors plotting voltage over lambda , you would see what I mean.

The line of the curve flattens out at 14.7:1 and the tails are almost vertical just a few Mv's to either side of 14.7. The way the O2 sensor is, is more like a switch than a sensor.

I mean you proably have a decent feel for when the car is too rich or lean and thats why you have not blown up any motors yet but when you look at other forums, lots of other people have.

Since the map on Nissan ECU 's is rpm and load driven, hence a major problem when really pushing the fuel trim with the AFC hooked up to the MAF is being in the wrong part of the the look up table. 

Mike C's solution is the most interesting where he is going to use the MAF for load but a MAP for fuel trim throught the AFC. This will probably be the best working solution.

Mike


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SuckiT said:


> *I dont have the wiring diagram with me now. Its at my friends shop. I can have it to you by this weekend or try Honda-Tech, they should have the diagram listed.
> 
> Hey Mike Im interested in this GM Map setup your trying to run with the Afc. When you get a chance can you post up you fuel settings and ect. Also can you explain why it will run so much better. Cause fuel is takin or givin through rpm regardless of tps voltage. The TPS is used for the high/low map. The Map sensor will then change it to seeing load, but how do you differentiate what voltage means what load? To me this solves part-throttle/ full boost and full throttle/ no boost situations only, correct me if im wrong. Ive read how it works but still dont grasp why it should. *


Its because TPS is only part of the equation that drives the fuel curve in a nissan ECU. Most of what drives the map is load and rpm which is determined by the MAF output. You tweak the MAF output with an AFC and you end up on the wrong place on the map so you will have the wrong spark advance and a really werid combo of the wrong fuel cell in the map tweaked by the AFC to add fuel to the wrong cell to make the right mixture.

Mike


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

WOW


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Mike, since we know already that stock O2 tunning is not the best way of doing things. Maybe this is why i'm able to get away with tunning my own car based on O2 sensor voltage and not blowing it up. 

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/users/gparmer/efi/myfaq.htm

O2 sensors:
There are two basic types Titania and Zirconia. 
Zirconia is the most common It produces voltage ( 1 V when fuel mixture is rich, 0 V when fuel misture is lean) when the O2 content of the exhaust is low. The sensor output isn't linear, there is a sharp change in voltage when air/fuel mixture is around 14.7 to 1. One wire: No heater, the body of sensor is the ground. GM, Ford, Chrysler plus others usually 18 mm thread. Can swap among each other though a plug swap is needed. Two wire: No heater, one signal wire one ground wirebody also grounded Used by GM in the early 80's. Can be replaced with a one wire sensor. Three wire: Has a heater for quick warm up, once hot there isn't any performance difference than a one wire. One signal wire, two for the heater. The heater usually takes 12V and isn't polarity sensitive. Four wire: Has heater ( See three wire ) One signal Wire, One signal return, two for the heater. 

Titania is used on many 86 up Nissans, some 89 up Corolla turbos and MR2 turbos and 87-90 Jeeps. This sensor changes resistance as O2 levels change. High resistance ~20,000 when fuel is lean, ~ 1,000 when the fuel is rich. This sensor warms up quicker and can tolerate higher exhaust temps than zirconia.
Splicing O2 wires works, though extra care must be used. Use a bare butt splice, crimp with plyers that give a indentation on one side and a curve on the other. Solder the wires then cover with shrink wrap. 

and 

http://www.forparts.com/Bos02update2.htm
Heated Titania-type O2 Sensors

Titania sensors use a different type of ceramic and instead of generating a voltage signal that changes with the air/fuel ratio, the sensor's electrical resistance changes. The resistance is less than 1000 ohms when the air/fuel ratio is rich, and more than 20,000 ohms when the air/fuel ratio is lean. The ECU provides a base reference voltage and then rmonitors the sensor return voltage as the sensor's resistance changes. Titania O2 sensors are used on less than 1% of O2 sensor-equipped vehicles:

'86-'93 Nissan 3.0L trucks 
'91-'94 Nissan 3.0L Maxima, 2.0L Sentra 
'87-'90 Jeep Cherokee, Wrangler, and Eagle Summit There are two basic types of O2 sensors Titania and Zirconia.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

Titania vs Zirconia O2 sensors:

http://www.carquest.com/techbulletins/engine_controls/ec_summer_2001.pdf



> Hi there,
> 
> FYI, Seen over on the GN list (Regarding O2 sensors w/leaded fuel):
> 
> ...


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

> Compared to the more common zirconia O2 sensors, titania sensors have three advantages: (1) they don't need an air reference (there is no internal venting to the outside atmosphere to plug up); (2) they have a fast warm-up time (about 15 seconds); and (3) they work at lower exhaust temperatures (they won't cool off at idle and they can be located further downstream from the engine or used with turbochargers).
> 
> You'll find titania O2 sensors in '86 and later Nissan 300ZX and Stanza 4WD wagons, '87 and up Nissan Maxima and Sentra models, and 1986-1/2 and up Nissan D21 trucks. Chrysler also uses them on the Jeep Cherokee and Wrangler (because of the sensor's ability to handle off-road driving through water), and the Eagle Summit.
> 
> http://www.milexautocare.com/electrical/elec4.htm


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

So the JDM ECU's which aren't compatable with USDM or I should I rather say Zirconia O2 sensors are those from the RNN14 and U12 which use the Titania O2 sensor indicated by the small 12mm thread vs the more common 18mm thread on most USDM SR20's.

Hmmm, also Titania O2 sensor's can read from 0v - 5v or 0v - 1v depending on the manufacture.

Maybe someone with a RNN14 are U12 ECU could verify what scale Nissan tunes these particular ECU's to read O2 sensor voltage i.e. check the reference voltage supplied to the O2 sensor from the ECU.


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## W10DET2020 (Sep 1, 2002)

The Avenir W10-11 and Bluebird U13 use Zirconia O2 sensors indicated by the 18mm thread and are the same as the USDM O2 sensor.


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## sr20racer (Jun 29, 2002)

.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 12, 2003)

*aem ecu*

Ahem (jwt be all end all) hachoooo!(BS).
Anyone with a stand alone ecu (AEM now makes them for 200sx 97+ obdII)
And a couple of hours on a dyno (with a good logger and knowledge of tuning) can take their base maps and make some great power.
This also eliminates the need for shipping back and forth and waiting what two weeks, exuse me but I can't garage a driver for two weeks.
Short of driving to Cali and having jwt tune it on the spot I don't trust them anyway. They are out to make alot of money on a re-flash or daughter board that cost them $2.50 and then they're gonna drop your ecu in a bin and send you something to "rewire into your car" and oh yeah, don't forget to change out all your sensors to an earlier type and weld new bungs into the manifold and rear o2. Ha.
Now if you wanna adjust something like a fuel map (which btw you won't know what the map is nor have access to it) just ship that back for another two weeks to four months.
Then, when you go to emissions test, expect to flunk.
They will say "HEY, you've only got obdI on that OBDII model year"
P.s. please return it to stock condition for your next test

Then you're like hey! wheres my original ECU.
Sorry, we cored it, you should have paid for the entire ecu and not cored it"

So JWT is the best?
They can tune the ecu once in 2 weeks, 
A tuner and a dyno and an aem and it's probabally better tuned the same day, especially if you get the UEGO wideband package.
They gave me that line about encryption/obdII or something as well, so the ecu for every other nissan is not encrypted? or they only have problems with one model year? Sounds like a buch of fertilizer to me too. And there "tech" was pretty rude and help-LESS not helpfull. Made me feel like I didn't want to spend any money there but I got the flywheel anyway and it's about all I would recommend unless you need a better clutch for turbo or nos. 
Do I need a racing clutch for Nitrous oxide if I set my progressive controller to spool-up the nitrous gradually or do you think a stock clutch can handle the extra 25hp on engaging and then spool up to a 75? (wet kit).


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

thanks for bringin back the old thread!

the AEM for 97+ is for the SR20. Have you looked at the cost of the AEM vs the cost of the JWT?

Sure, a standalone would be better any day, if you have an unlimited amount of money. If that were the case, we'd all be running T66 turbos, 1000whp, and MoTeC M4 units.

The AEM standalone with everything you need is well over $1000. Probably the easiest to use standalone out there with the best software and easiest to install (of standalones, that is. None are really 'easy') of the standalones. However, as with any standalone, you need someone familiar with that software, very skilled at tuning, and willing to spend hours on a dyno testing/making base maps and tuning it.

Hours on the dyno=$$$$$$$.

On the other side, JWT is less than $1000. Plug and play. No tuning required, no dyno time, nothing.

For some of us (like B15 owners), we don't have the option of JWT. I hope to go with the AEM EMS in the future, but like I said, it's very expensive and requires EXTENSIVE knowledge on tuning.

Dan, it seems to me you're speaking of which you do not know. The only reason you'd need a reprogrammed daughterboard is if a) you changed MAFs b) you changed injectors, or c) you added nitrous (not necessary though)

They do not send you the daughterboard to wire in yourself. You send them your ECU, and they send it back to you with the proper programming.

If JWT had all the time in the day to answer phone calls from people like you, they wouldn't have time to do any real work. Maybe that's why he wasn't exactly polite to you. Believe it or not, JWT is not a large company with many employees. Their margin is not very thick like you think, either.

So, before you fully know how JWT works, I suggest you not spout off like a God or something.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

I'm just going to come out and say this. STOP POSTING CRAP!!! You are ranting about things that you have not done yourself. Here's a real world sotry about JWT and their ability. 

I have a turbo GA16 and I wanted to run MSD 50 lb injectors and a Ford Cobra MAF. This had NEVER been done on a GA before. I live in WI and I mailed JWT my ECU. Without using the car, having a similar car, or having anything to go off of they were able to get the profile right on the first try. Having never done this program on a GA before or without having a car to test on. If that does not speak to their ability then I don't know what does. Show me ANY OTHER tuner in the US that can do that with our cars. Until then stop posting crap. 

You also post about JWT trying to take advantage and rip people off. And your answer is to post up something that cost over 3x as much for the unit itself and then say how anyone can tune it. Why don't you talk about the cost of the dyno time or the cost for someone to tune it if you can't. 

Lastly you are comparing apples to oranges. A truly plug and play ECU VS a custom programmable unit. They are not the same. If you are too impatient to wait the period of time it take JWT then here's a tip. Don't buy it, but don't bash them because of this. Besides, the thing here is to have the parts you want to run the first time and have the program done for them on a separate ECU which can be had for CHEAP. Then you don't have the down time you spoke about and can still drive your car.

Oh and you'll want a different clutch for your nitrous setup. I think the JWT is the best out there.... :thumbup:


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

DanTheMan said:


> Ahem (jwt be all end all) hachoooo!(BS).
> Anyone with a stand alone ecu (AEM now makes them for 200sx 97+ obdII)
> And a couple of hours on a dyno (with a good logger and knowledge of tuning) can take their base maps and make some great power.
> This also eliminates the need for shipping back and forth and waiting what two weeks, exuse me but I can't garage a driver for two weeks.
> ...


So like you can do a better job with an AEM system because its so easy? And dyno time needed for tuning is like $100 per hour and thats cheap?

Do you know what are the appropritate target A/F ratios and what the target timing should be for your base map for your driving conditions?

Most people are clueless when it comes to whats right with tuning and hence the large amount of blown up motors and unfrinnished project and cars that never really do run well out there.

JWT is a plug and play easy solution. Currently my NA SR20DE is tied for the most powerful NA SR20DE that is generaly known about, My turbo SR has over 400 whp, my Z is one of the most powerful in the coutry with the highest torque of any known z, my SE-R Cup car is one of of the fastest ones on the circuit.

All have JWT ECU's with off the shelf customer avlaible programs. Still seems to you like they don't know what they are doing and can't be trusted?

In nearly every case of people claiming that there JWT program is causing there car to run to poorly that I have troubleshot, the problem was with the the car, not the ECU programing, ususaly with mad sensors, ignition or wiring.

Sure if I tuned an AEM EMS right to the edge, it might beat out a JWT ECU in power and in an ultra high power app, a AEM system set up for speed density might out power a JWT ECU but the JWT's relialbe OEM wiring and the flexabilty with running a MAF in not having to retune much is worth it most of the time.


So what experiances can you recant of things that you have done with an AEM EMS and with your experiance in building powerful cars. When have you beaten JWT in power, and relaiblity. Share some of your experiances with us.


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## wes (Apr 30, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> So like you can do a better job with an AEM system because its so easy? And dyno time needed for tuning is like $100 per hour and thats cheap?
> 
> Do you know what are the appropritate target A/F ratios and what the target timing should be for your base map for your driving conditions?
> 
> ...



That's the thing Mike he has NONE. IIRC he was presenting this as a better alternative to ECU tuning on an NA GA16 application. Hardly the high power app. you'd need to show the limits of the JWT tuning. 

He was pissing and moaning about how he doesn't like the fact that you have to do some work on the 97 GA16 to be able to run the 95-96 JWT ecu. If he thinks that's hard I wonder what he'd make of the AEM unit and the time needed to make it perfect...


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## chimmike (Oct 17, 2002)

besides the fact that this is an OLD OLD OLD thread.

If he doesn't reply within 24 hours with something worthwhile, this thread is closed.


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## tony200 (Mar 23, 2005)

i agree with you on that wes. jwt is good. if you dont like the price, thats fine. get a fuel mangement like maybe an apexi s-afc,( i know, i like the apexi gadget) but you wont get full potential like the jwt which removes governor and raises the rev.


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## Chillboy (Oct 8, 2003)

Geo said:


> I still wish I had a proven plug n play solution for the 944. If I can't find one or a cheap enough stand alone to fit in the ECU I may take you up on the offer. It's _really_ frustrating. Most Nissan folks just don't realize how good we have it.


My 944 was chipped. There are many options for it's eprom ecu. Search google.

edit not useful enough for the Nissan board


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