# Lets make a sticky on KYB GR-2's!



## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

This question come up every day and I am so sick of seeing it.

KYB GR-2's are OEM replacment shocks, not high performance shocks. They will absolutly suck when combined with lowering springs, especialy higher rate coil over conversions.

Now any NOOB asking this question again can get flamed!

Mike


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## Chuck (Nov 19, 2003)

Lol.. but the stock shocks arent gas shocks are they? i never cared to research


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## jammo (Aug 21, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> KYB GR-2's are OEM replacment shocks, not high performance shocks


thank you for the clarification.

with this new found wealth of information, im gonna save my dollars, and spring for the KYB AGX shocks.

thanks!


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## SentraBoy (Jun 19, 2002)

*The GR2's do the job.*

My friend's business Performance Improvements, 9 locations throughout Canada sell thousands of GR2's a year. 

We have talked to Chuck Gonwa from KYB and he ONLY warranties the GR2's when paired up with Eibach Pro-kits and Suspension Techniques Sport Springs. The setup will work properly do to the spring rates of the springs.

They DO NOT warranty GR2's used with any other springs and especially not coilovers. 

So if the Pro-kit or ST sport springs are used, the GR2's will be warrantied.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

SentraBoy said:


> My friend's business Performance Improvements, 9 locations throughout Canada sell thousands of GR2's a year.
> 
> We have talked to Chuck Gonwa from KYB and he ONLY warranties the GR2's when paired up with Eibach Pro-kits and Suspension Techniques Sport Springs. The setup will work properly do to the spring rates of the springs.
> 
> ...


The fact that they don't wear quickly does not necessarily mean that the damper will do a good job of handling the spring rate. The GR2's have too little compression or rebound damping to handle Pro-Kits.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

I hate to repeat...but they are OEM replacements like the first post mentions.. not for performance applications.... period


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

Chuck said:


> Lol.. but the stock shocks arent gas shocks are they? i never cared to research


they are low pressre gas.

Mike


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## Power Mad (May 24, 2004)

I have normal sensatrac on the rear of my car and gr2's on the front. PLus i have h and r race springs. (this is my jetta i am talking about.) It is a bit rougher than stock but it is fine. Then again i dont race the jetta.........


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## shift_of_legend (Jun 2, 2004)

Which is better, gas or hydraulic shocks?


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

shift_of_legend said:


> Which is better, gas or hydraulic shocks?


Monotube ("gas') have certain advantages over twin-tube ("hydraulic") dampers:

- Monotube dampers, despite being more difficult to make adjustable, have a wider field of damping
- Cools faster, and is thus more reliable
- Sturdier piston rods and pistons can be used because of the bigger chamber for it
- Can withstand higher temperatures and pressures
- Does not need to be positioned right side up, or even vertically

Twin-tube dampers have two big advantages over monotube dampers, which still stand as the main reasons they're still used on certain passenger cars:

- Cost. Monotube dampers are expensive to make
- Twin-tube dampers are easier to make adjustable. This was the reason that for the longest time, Formula cars had twin tube dampers.


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## SamMan23 (May 17, 2004)

There are guys at Maxima.org who think differently. They think that GR-2s are stiffer than stock and Tokiko HPs(blues) for the 4th Gen Maximas. They aren't adjustable, but they are supposedly stiffer. But if you want a stiffer than stock but don't care for adjustability GR-2s are a good buy. 
I guess it's a matter of how you define high performance. 
Making a blanket statement across the board for a shock on all cars may not work. The valvings may be different for a shock design from car to car. After all the weight of a maxima will differ from the weight of a sentra.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

SamMan23 said:


> Making a blanket statement across the board for a shock on all cars may not work. The valvings may be different for a shock design from car to car. After all the weight of a maxima will differ from the weight of a sentra.


Good point, but it doesn't make this blanket statement invalid. Even on larger cars, GR-2's aren't meant to handle springs that are much stiffer than stock. They certainly are better than the stock dampers on many vehicles, but they don't provide enough damping for almost all decent lowering springs.

This sticky is here to prevent people from thinking that they can stick springs with rates 20%~100+% stiffer than the stock springs (ie: Eibach Pro-kits, Ground Control Coilovers) onto these dampers and get good or even decent performance out of their suspension system. A lot of people do it anyway or try to argue otherwise because they've ridden around on the street with that setup in the dry and think it feels ok. But as soon as they start pushing it or the weather turns ugly, they will realize just how underdamped their setup is (given that they are good enough a driver to notice when a car is underdamped).

I'm not saying that your initial statement was wrong. GR-2's are often better than Tokico Blues (I know someone tested the ones for the B14 Lucino on a damper dyno. The Blues have far too much rebound damping and far too little compression damping. It's bizzare), and they're an improvement over the stock dampers in most cases. However, this does not mean that GR-2's are capable of handling significantly stiffer springs. Nor does stiff = high performance. The valving is different across different cars (they'd better be), but the basic damper design is the same across the board, and so is the design objective. These things were not designed to be fitted on stiff lowering springs. 

If there are exceptions, great. Please show us the exact setup on a damper dyno or a skidpad. We'll spread the news and hopefully help people save a few bucks. But until then, we can't sensibly reccomend the GR-2's as an acceptable pairing with good lowering springs.


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## GrideGanjaman (Oct 15, 2003)

*other struts?*

woah...okay..
I was just gonna buy some GR-2.
my brother's got GR-2 with Eibachs on his grandam..and the ride is both sMOOTH and TIGHT, and doesn't bounce. 
yeah.. it's a grand am... but I'm thinking and hearing that the shocks are good.

I got myself a set of tien springs.. and want to know what struts will be best for them.

I've done my looking around... WHAT OTHER STRUTS can I use!?!
1993 G20 I got.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

SamMan23 said:


> There are guys at Maxima.org who think differently. They think that GR-2s are stiffer than stock and Tokiko HPs(blues) for the 4th Gen Maximas. They aren't adjustable, but they are supposedly stiffer. But if you want a stiffer than stock but don't care for adjustability GR-2s are a good buy.
> I guess it's a matter of how you define high performance.
> Making a blanket statement across the board for a shock on all cars may not work. The valvings may be different for a shock design from car to car. After all the weight of a maxima will differ from the weight of a sentra.


The Tokiko HP blue is another nearly useless shock.

Mike


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## Asura (Aug 27, 2004)

the AGX are crappy as well... I've blown 2 front sets with some 500lbs/in ERS coils (yes, the car needs that much of spring for my application). So, with that in mind, I'll say the AGX are best suited with street coils and nothing more. but.. for the price.. I guess I can't complain...or can I? 

the GR-2 supposedly are 20% stiffer than most stock OEM dampers. Currently running them with a set of intrax, no problem so far.

Also, a friend of mine has been running GR-2 paired with GC on track with no problem on an L30.


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## jmann98 (Aug 20, 2004)

I chose AGXs over GR2s and have no direct experience w/GR-2s, but have been wondering: many folks have said that if you decide to simply go with AGXs and springs (pro-kits, H&R), to set the AGXs on 1/1. The AGXs are at OEM rates (the rears are actually softer according to NPM) when set at these levels. If so, then why wouldn't the GR-2s work, sense they are at the same stiffness levels as AGXs at 1/1?

If the GR-2s are 20% stiffer than stock and the AGXs set at 1/1, then this would be even more true. But I would be, uh, shocked if the GR-2s were 20% stiffer than stock. That would make them stiffer than AGXs at 2/4...

Clearly the GR-2s are not stiff enough for 300/200 rates or any kind of coilover, but for those on the cheap getting pro-kits or something, isn't this another way to save money? Particularly if you're gonna go easy on your shocks (slow driving, good roads, no racing), and mainly want rice?

'97 SE-R w/AGXs, shopping now for Ground Control coilovers


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

jmann98 said:


> I chose AGXs over GR2s and have no direct experience w/GR-2s, but have been wondering: many folks have said that if you decide to simply go with AGXs and springs (pro-kits, H&R), to set the AGXs on 1/1. The AGXs are at OEM rates (the rears are actually softer according to NPM) when set at these levels. If so, then why wouldn't the GR-2s work, sense they are at the same stiffness levels as AGXs at 1/1?
> 
> If the GR-2s are 20% stiffer than stock and the AGXs set at 1/1, then this would be even more true. But I would be, uh, shocked if the GR-2s were 20% stiffer than stock. That would make them stiffer than AGXs at 2/4...
> 
> ...


I'm surprised no one has addressed this yet. It's a very good question. Let me quickly go through everything in order, so hopefully someone else can pick up on it and go into more detail.

Everyone talks about how much % a certain damper is stiffer than OEM, but damper "stiffness" is really a problem in two variables: Compression and rebound. Compression damping is the amount of damping during the compression of the spring/damper assembly (like when going over bumps or at the beginning of a turn), and rebound damping is the amount of damping exerted during the re-expansion of the assembly. Now, compression and rebound do not necessarily share a linear relation in single adjustable dampers. "10% stiffer than stock" could mean that both the compression and rebound are 10% stiffer each, the compression is 10% stiffer, or that the average of the increase in stiffness of the compression and rebound (all three are known to be used by aftermarket damper companies). In the context of GR2's and AGX's, this means that the damping characteristics are not necessarily the same at the same "percent stiffness over stock".

The above is important when choosing which dampers to pair your lowering springs with, but it isn't the main reason everyone says to avoid GR2's. The reason people avoid them for performance applications is the fact that GR2's+Pro-kit results in a combination that feels rather underdamped. On the street, this may or may not be a safety hazard depending on the road surface, but is certainly not as blatantly dangerous as say, cuting OEM springs. The reason everyone should avoid them is because of the wear characteristics. A damper is not a damper is not a damper. Everything from the oil used to the construction to the valving is different across every aftermarket damper. You can set AGX's to damp the same amount as GR2's, but that little clicker doesn't change the quality of the materials, fluids, or packaging. The oil and valves within AGX's will be able to tolerate the higher forces generated by the stiffer springs, even when set at 1 or 2. GR2's, on the other hand, cannot. The oil will break down much more quickly, the valves and seals will be much more prone to leaking, and accelerated wear will ensue, resulting in a weak/broken/useless damper. And yes, driving on weak or blown dampers is VERY dangerous.

The reason so many people are confused about the GR2 + Pro-kit/Sportline solution stems from the fact that both use progressive rate springs on at least one end of the car. GR2 + Pro-kit seems ok on a B14 Sentra while cruising on the highway. But as soon as you start going over rough road or start cornering moderately hard (thus compressing the spring more), things start to get ugly fast. If you take a look at the rates of the pro-kits listed at the bottom of this page on SE-R.net, you'll see that the rears go all the way up to 257lbs/in for the B14. This is not to say that you'll ever compress the rear springs enough to get there, but you will be surprised at just how much the springs compress on your car, even during regular low-impact street driving on seemingly smooth roads (I say seemingly, because there are very, very few roads in the US which are close to foreign standards of "smooth"). And if you've ever looked at how quickly the spring rates on Pro-kits rise, you'll see there is valid reason for concern (I don't have any data for the B14 on hand, so you're going to have to look at the charts on this MX6 tuning guide as a reference). Driving slowly and carefully is no guarantee that you won't have to replace your GR2's after 10,000 miles or that they'll be a solid, safe solution.

If you want to "go for rice", go ahead. Despite all of the performance and safety concerns, Sportlines + GR2's is nowhere near as dangerous as some of the stuff out there. But because the risks of poor damper longevity (A set of AGX's which could last you over 80,000 miles costs much less than 3 sets of GR2's which might only last 25,000 each) and a severely underdamped setup (bad for performance, dangerous on bumpy roads/highways) are there, I personally am very reluctant to reccomend the setup to a budget-minded tuner.


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## Flounder (Sep 4, 2003)

a friend of mine just put the GR-2/sportline setup on his B14. He also cut the bumpstops in half i think. He says it's been a great ride so far. I want to eventually drop my car. I don't plan on autocrossing anytime soon, but dont want frickin sprint springs that bounce like hell either. My car needs new struts anyways, so what should i do? I want to do it right.


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## sts25 (Aug 19, 2004)

morepower2 said:


> This question come up every day and I am so sick of seeing it.
> 
> KYB GR-2's are OEM replacment shocks, not high performance shocks. They will absolutly suck when combined with lowering springs, especialy higher rate coil over conversions.
> 
> ...


i must say that i have the worst set up out there. I've got sportlines W/ GR-2's. I have been autocrossing my sentra for about three years (5 all together) and i find the spring/ strut combo to be quite nimble and quite fast!! By the way, i have a 8 degree difference front to back w/ the front being the hottest. I believe that its all in the set up!!!!!!!!!!!!IT's ALL ABOUT BALENCE... I would also like to add is that my car feels safe and secure with that set up- I do alot of travling and run these mountain roads alot and the pucker factor is ZERO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

sts25 said:


> i must say that i have the worst set up out there. I've got sportlines W/ GR-2's. I have been autocrossing my sentra for about three years (5 all together) and i find the spring/ strut combo to be quite nimble and quite fast!! By the way, i have a 8 degree difference front to back w/ the front being the hottest. I believe that its all in the set up!!!!!!!!!!!!IT's ALL ABOUT BALENCE... I would also like to add is that my car feels safe and secure with that set up- I do alot of travling and run these mountain roads alot and the pucker factor is ZERO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You need a better idea of what's going on in your car when you drive it.

This message goes to everyone who puts up similar posts, citing that these setups "feel great" or that "I've had no problems so far". The truth of the matter is, if you think you've never bottomed out in a Sportlines + GR2 setup, you lack the experience to make any sort of reccomendation in terms of suspension setups. It doesn't make a difference how many posts you've made here, how many years you've been driving, or how long you've been racing. If you're still making statements like that, you do not know what your car feels like when it's set up properly. This is something that should have been made clear a long time ago, but the other guys on this forum who know firsthand (myoung, PattScott, morepower2, etc) are just too conscious of hurting people's feelings.

As harsh as that sounds, that needed to be said.


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

sorry to bring up an old thread but i just ordered a set of GR-2 as stock replacements.

i am going to use stock springs on there for my stock struts are going bad real fast.

after reading this thread im safe to assume that the gr2 , sportline and koni bumpstops with ME rear mounts are not the way to go ? if that is the case then i shall refrain from using the sportline combo in the future.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

sts25 said:


> i must say that i have the worst set up out there. I've got sportlines W/ GR-2's. I have been autocrossing my sentra for about three years (5 all together) and i find the spring/ strut combo to be quite nimble and quite fast!! By the way, i have a 8 degree difference front to back w/ the front being the hottest. I believe that its all in the set up!!!!!!!!!!!!IT's ALL ABOUT BALENCE... I would also like to add is that my car feels safe and secure with that set up- I do alot of travling and run these mountain roads alot and the pucker factor is ZERO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and I bet a properly set up car would smoke yours badly in an autocross. I assure you that you car would not even be competive on the track or at a national level autocross.


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## morepower2 (Apr 19, 2002)

LIUSPEED said:


> sorry to bring up an old thread but i just ordered a set of GR-2 as stock replacements.
> 
> i am going to use stock springs on there for my stock struts are going bad real fast.
> 
> after reading this thread im safe to assume that the gr2 , sportline and koni bumpstops with ME rear mounts are not the way to go ? if that is the case then i shall refrain from using the sportline combo in the future.


Yeah sportlines are way too soft and too low. The only springs worth anything are the hypercos and they require better shocks like AGX's to control the rebound.


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

ok so im also safe to assume that using the pro kits are a big no no right?


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## Sterling2000 (Mar 11, 2003)

I'm running the GR-2s with MaxSpeeds and it sux.....


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## SentraBoy (Jun 19, 2002)

Sterling2000 said:


> I'm running the GR-2s with MaxSpeeds and it sux.....



MAXSPEED SPRINGS are garbage, They ride like crap no matter what struts you use. They use unidentified spring rates.


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## Marvin (Oct 16, 2002)

Posted for Raffiks...


"So if i get the KYB Gr-2 using my *stock springs*, just changing my struts from OEM to the GR-2's, will i have any problems, or will it be a nice, smooth ride?"


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

♣Altim8GA♣ said:


> Posted for Raffiks...
> 
> 
> "So if i get the KYB Gr-2 using my *stock springs*, just changing my struts from OEM to the GR-2's, will i have any problems, or will it be a nice, smooth ride?"


GR2's on stock springs kicked ass on every small car I've been in with that setup. I'm not too sure about midside and larger sedans, but I'm sure it can't be that much worse, if at all.


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

morepower2 said:


> LIUSPEED said:
> 
> 
> > morepower2 said:
> ...


got this from mike kojima about lowering with GR-2's


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

LIUSPEED said:


> got this from mike kojima about lowering with GR-2's


You might want to mention that this setup is temporary while you gather funds for your Teins (as you stated in another thread). Otherwise, newer members of the forums might be confused by Mike Kojima's seemingly contradictory advice.


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## Teh00Alty (Jan 21, 2005)

i just had mine installed yesterday, replaced my stock ones. i dont have lowering springs or any of that other shit on. And to honest, im not happy at all. I still feel every single bump in the road. every manhole tahts wet, i feel the back tire slip. There a little better than the stock ones. But what happened?


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Teh00Alty said:


> i just had mine installed yesterday, replaced my stock ones. i dont have lowering springs or any of that other shit on. And to honest, im not happy at all. I still feel every single bump in the road. every manhole tahts wet, i feel the back tire slip. There a little better than the stock ones. But what happened?


Dampers need a couple hundred miles to break in. But in your case it actually sounds like you want different tyres. What do you have on there now?


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## Teh00Alty (Jan 21, 2005)

Hankook ventus h405. Tread is all there. Running on 17's,(stock is 16 or 15).


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## SentraBoy (Jun 19, 2002)

Teh00Alty said:


> Hankook ventus h405. Tread is all there. Running on 17's,(stock is 16 or 15).


Hey Bro

Why you have a link for me to see your Altima?


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Teh00Alty said:


> Hankook ventus h405. Tread is all there. Running on 17's,(stock is 16 or 15).


What size? If your tyre profile is too low, you will feel bumps and ruts even if you have the best dampers in the world. You can minimize the effects if you run different tyre pressures, but if the tyre profiles are too small, you will not be able to achieve a super-smooth ride.

Also keep in mind that the H405s are known for having relatively soft sidewalls, which doesn't bode well for bumpy roads.

Before you go and buy anything else though, go check your tyre pressures, then give it a couple hundred miles so the GR2's can break in.


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## Teh00Alty (Jan 21, 2005)

thats what it is, i think their 215/*50 or 55 *.
but i have 17's what else can i do?


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## LIUSPEED (May 29, 2002)

in reference to post # 29 ( http://www.nissanforums.com/showpost.php?p=819240&postcount=29 )

the set up im running or going to be running is only a temporary set up while i gather funds for TEIN SS and other stuff that need repair on my car.


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Teh00Alty said:


> thats what it is, i think their 215/*50 or 55 *.
> but i have 17's what else can i do?


Well, all is not lost yet. As I said before, give the dampers time to break in, and play with the tyre pressures a little to see if you can't smooth things out.

If you're still dissatisfied after all that, you can install strut tower bars. They will tie the tops of your struts together, stiffening the chassis and making the struts and springs do more of the work involved in absorbing bumps. This will help improve ride quality as well.


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## Teh00Alty (Jan 21, 2005)

im jsut gonna pretend like i understood what you said. I have a strut bar under my hood. ?? lol


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

Teh00Alty said:


> im jsut gonna pretend like i understood what you said. I have a strut bar under my hood. ?? lol


Oh whoops. I just looked at the pictures on your cardomain site and realized that you already have a front strut tower bar. Sorry.


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## alexinpg (Oct 5, 2004)

Alright hate to post in a sticky that hasn't been posted in for about 2 months. 
I just ordered some GR2's from advance auto, got a heck of a deal 80 bucks for both rears. The only reason i ordered them is cause i need to replace my stocks that are blown. I'm not looking at doing any sport springs or anything like that. I've been saving for Tien Basics but they're still behind a turbo kit, a engine rebuild, and a stand alone computer.
So just to double check here, on the back, GR2's should do alright just as a stock replacement with stock springs and stock tires and rims. I kinda of needed something better cause everytime i get near 115 it starts to sway all over the road.


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## pete? (Jul 6, 2004)

if they are on stock springs they will be 100% fine, no problems. its when you lower your car that you will start having problems because they cant handle the higher spring rates.


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## StevenLK (Jul 15, 2002)

so basically there is no good setup for gr2's with after market springs/coilovers? and so the best u would get out of them is to ride with OEM springs?


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## ReVerm (Jan 13, 2003)

StevenLK said:


> so basically there is no good setup for gr2's with after market springs/coilovers? and so the best u would get out of them is to ride with OEM springs?


Pretty much. They're great on OEM springs though if you're one of those people who like to drive hard on less-than-perfect roads or want to autocross in the stock category.


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## soc_monki (Jun 4, 2005)

i have an Altima, and there are NO good struts for lowering for our cars. the Tokicos yes, but as someone else said the damping settings feel weird. they are stiff on compression and floaty on rebound. 

i had to replace the front ones and could only afford GR-2s, and im on Ground Controls, lowered about 1.75 inches in front, 1 inch in rear. the car rides fine and handles fine, and i know when im bottoming (not much, just huge hits) and all that. the GR-2s actually feel better than the Toks! better valving i guess. but...

i know this isnt the ideal setup...the GR-2s are too soft, although they seem to hand the 350lb front rate well, and the Toks in the rear handle the 250 well. but this is about all i can do at the moment. i cant afford D2 or KSport coilovers (1100 bucks!) although one day when i have a great job i will get them. 

so, sometimes good struts arent made for the car, in the Altima's case (at least the 1st and 2nd generations...3rd have the Koni option i believe...so they suck LOL) and we have to go with what weve got available. i should have saved up for the real coilovers, but whatever. im happy with my setup, even if it isnt perfect. i have to live with it. i have no excess bounce, and everything in the suspension is controlled nicely, given the stiff spring rates. 

just wanted to add the Altima side of the story!


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## LucinoSR20 (Aug 30, 2005)

I just bough tsom tok HP's and they are only for OEM replacement as well? I have a set of sportlines, and a set of S-techs... and from reading this.... that will just be the wrong thing to do? Well, thats all i have, and ive already bought my toks... dang it. will it be allright for a few months, so that i have time to save my pennies to replace the agx's that are on there now?


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## 200SushiX (Jul 12, 2002)

What's a good shock for H&R prokits? I just wanted a mild drop, and I think the sports(?)
dropped it too much, but I got KYB GR-2's with them and I'm not liking it, even with just
a mild drop.


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## 200SushiX (Jul 12, 2002)

Here's a pic of the drop:








Not too much, really, but over some bumps the front tires actually feel like they leave
the ground for a fraction of a second.


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## ghstwalker (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks for all the info, this is great info for a newb like me. When you say "set at 1 or 2." Is that a setting for the compression and rebound? For example, would a 2 setting have a stiffer compression with a quicker rebound?


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## 240wrx (Nov 21, 2006)

I just ordered some AGXs for my 95 240sx. At the advice of my local mechanic I also plan on getting some TEIN S techs. He has this setup on his Integra. 
I don't plan on racing it, just want a daily driver that has improved handling and is a little more fun.


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## runslikeapenguin (Jul 22, 2008)

after reading this, nothing has really been recommended for mild street use. 

would someone recomend the KYB AGX's with some ebiach springs? for just improved street driving and a a drop


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## 2red4u (Sep 21, 2010)

I was thinking of getting some GR 2's for my 94' d21 4x4 pickup, its all stock. Trying to get close to OEM or better. This thing is not slammed, ment for onroad/offroad and am trying to find something with a smooth ride. Advanced has a deal if you spend over 100 bucks you get 15% off and a 50 dollar gift cert. Kinda thinking its a good deal. I have monroe sensa craps on it now and its stiff as hell.


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