# ok another suspension q?



## Guest (Jan 6, 2003)

ok.. i've done search, and now i need public opinion. I have a 1996 200sx SE. It's my daily driver i also own a 92 240sx se coupe (it's a beast)

i dont want to spend a lot of money on my 200. b/c i put the majority of my $ on my track car, my baby. i spent more on my engine and turbo setup than i did on my 200sx.

when i searched i noticed everyone says if you lower the car more than 1.5" we have too little travel and it will bottom out. i dont mind messing up my oem struts, but it may also be unsafe.
So i have been looking at getting some KYB gr2's b/c they are fairly stiff and have a slightly smaller shock body.
I am thinking of getting goldline springs. 2.0" drop. i installed them on a 200 couple weeks ago and they rode fairly well. nice spring rate. but i did notice the suspension travel. 
i guess my q? is what setup will get me the lowest for the cheapest (while being safe) is it ok to go with an aftermarket strut and 2.0" drop(either spring or coilover)
p.s. i can get kyb gr2's at dealer price $160 for all 4 i can get goldlines for $89.
does anyone know where to get cheap coilovers?... real cheap?
thanx


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## El_Presidente (Oct 22, 2002)

*This should be moved to the suspension section*

But anyways to give you my input, the only coilovers worth getting (coilovers being spring and collar) for your car are the groundcontrol. Or else you'll get what you pay for, and you wont be happy with the results.
As for the struts, I heard the gr2s are decent, and if you can get a set for $160, you should go with those. Although the AGXs are better, they'll run you $370 a set.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2003)

hey man .. what's ur car lowered with?


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## El_Presidente (Oct 22, 2002)

well, currently I have eibach sportlines, they lower the car 1.9" the ride sucks on stock struts though. I recently ordered some kyb agxs with the B13 front, B14 rear combo. But since I'm out of the country right now, I havent been able to install them yet. But when I get those on, it should greatly improve the ride quality.

I used to have another 200sx, and I got aerospeed coilovers, and they really sucked, although they were on stock struts, but I would never buy those or any other cheap coilovers again.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2003)

ok.. so i plan on putting kyb gr-s's(non adJ) struts on my B-14.
can i buy gr-2's for the b-13 front and b-14 back?...and also is it just as easy an install or is ther custome fab. work to be done.?


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2003)

*huh?*

ok everyone says get the agx's i dont understand.. i want the gr-2's b/c they are cheaper i dont care bout the adjustability. i want they are the same ride as the agx's set on the middle setting.


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## HKS20DET (Nov 8, 2002)

well if u get Groundcontrols and agx's u can have the adjustablity in the ride height and stiffness. that is the setup i have. i was at a 4" drop on the GC's. turns out i was riding on the bumpstops. i raised it up 1" about a week ago and it rides freakin awesome. so with a 3" drop on non-adjustable i doubt that 3 would be possible. adjustability of stiffness keeps u from bottoming out. im set at 3 front and 5 rear. GOLDEN RULE: you get what u pay for. everyone knows that.

you can try the gr2's but its gonna suck if u install them and then have problems cause u wont be able to return them

good luck with what u choose


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2003)

ok u have urs with a 3" drop- set at 3 and 5 on you agx's
mine will be a 2" drop- with the equivlent stiffness of 4 all around. but on top of that, the ride in the back is not that bad, b/c there is more travel and i wil have the b13 struts up front which have 2" more travel.. so i should be set right?... does anyone else have this setup?


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## HKS20DET (Nov 8, 2002)

well all im sayin if i think u would be better off just gettin the agx's to start with. may save you money in the end. i have ground control camber plates also and they added just a little bit of suspension travel plus lowered it just a tiny bit more (it does this because u have to take the whole strut mount assembly out). id say if you really wanna be safe. you can either just buy the agx's and springs or you can go with gr2s (b13front and b14back), springs, motivational rear mounts, and camber plates(ground control but with the B13 fronts u will have extra travel. so atleast the mot. rear mounts.) that way u can have the extra suspension travel plus the ability to adjust your camber. the second choice would be more expensive than the first but that is the only way i would ever buy gr2s. that might extend the life of the struts.

are u sure that B13 fronts give you an extra 2" of travel? seems a little much to me. 1/2" sounds a little more reasonable


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## El_Presidente (Oct 22, 2002)

yeah, it is only 1/2" gain of travel.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2003)

oh yeah my bad. io know the deal with the frotn camber plates that makes sense. but the rear motivational mounts.. i dotn understand what they do?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

El_Presidente said:


> *yeah, it is only 1/2" gain of travel. *


Yeah and the travel trick(B13F, B14R) only works if you are using a sleave coilover kit like Ground Control. Its worthless to do it with lowering springs. Search around and youll find out what Im talking about.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2003)

PatScottAKA99XE said:


> *Yeah and the travel trick(B13F, B14R) only works if you are using a sleave coilover kit like Ground Control. Its worthless to do it with lowering springs. Search around and youll find out what Im talking about. *


ok by worthless, it's wont be harmful though, b/c i may want GC's later on..
so it wont hurt right.
and u say it will only work for coilovers, b/c they tend to go lower or is there another reason


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

If you are getting GC's later on dont waste your money on lowering springs now. Just wait till you can afford the good stuff.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

> If you are getting GC's later on dont waste your money on lowering springs now. Just wait till you can afford the good stuff.


True :thumbup:

I have the same hesitation as you dope....

If i lower my sentra will i need to get camber plates to change the camber? Or can i tell a technician to do a 4 wheel alignment and adjust the camber? because i dont want to sacrifice the life of my really expensive tires for a gain of handling


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

If you lower say about 2" you wont need camber plates. They make these little bolts that replace one of your strut-to-knuckle bolts. I call them crash-bolts, but they do work and thats what I have in my car at the moment to correct the camber after installing Sportlines. Some say its possible for the bolts to slip causeing you camber to go nuts but I havent had a problem yet. Just for and extra measure of saftey... Once I set my camber where I wanted it(FYI -1.5deg) I put very small tack welds on my struts(where the knuckle fits in).


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

So do you buy these bolts and if so can i buy them from autozone or something or do they come with the agx struts? thanks


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

The parts stores in my area carry them. When you go to get an alignment and the tech cannot get your camber right, this is most likely what he will use(for our style cars). We get them from places like NAPA.


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## bahearn (Jul 15, 2002)

1) I don't think crash bolts will get much in the way of comber change. You really want camber plates.

2) Camber won't cause excessive tire wear. Toe does the damage, and altering ride-height changes toe. Sentras with strut front suspensions have only toe as the alterable parameter. Camber and caster are pretty much fixed in the design, though there are a few work-arounds, like the crash bolts, for small adjustments.

As always, you get what you pay for, so cheap buy-in gets cheap results. In other words, save your pennies and get the right stuff from the start. This will get you much better results and cause much fewer headaches in the long run.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

bahearn is correct. I hate the idea of "crash-bolts", but I am just running them untill my coilovers and camberplates get here. IIRC I got about 1.5deg of adjustment out of them. bahearn is right on the money with his statement about tire wear when considering camber vs. toe. Camber doesnt affect tire nearlly as much as toe. After I lowered my B14 I had wicked toe out and neg. camber. Just to get by for a while I set the toe and left the camber alone. I had about 2.5-3.0 deg neg camber and didnt have all the much tire wear. If I would have left the toe alone it would have gone through tires like there was no tommorow.


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## Teknokid (Jun 1, 2002)

Basically save money to get a good suspension setup. Ground controls will cost you from $350-$450. KYB AGX adjustables for B13 fronts and B14 rears will run you between $300 to $400.
You should also get Ground Control Camber kit as it is top mount and will give you about 1/2" of travel i believe. The camber plates will not work with all front strut tower bars, one of which is the Stillen bar. I know there are other bars as well. 
Also get the rear mounts from motivational which will give you 1" of travel.


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## tim's 95 se-r (Dec 26, 2002)

first off, not to be rude since i am new.. but ive seen this same thread like 5 times since i joined, and it seems to always be the same people. 
second, i am an alignment technician. i own a lowered 200sx that is currently using stock struts but that change soon.
i used the "crash bolts" to align my car, and they gave about a 1.5 +/- camber change. 
and, while toe will wear out a tire, camber will at about the same rate.
i do agree that the camber plates are a much better solution, but the bolts i think will work fine for normal street use. i have used these bolts in many different cars and never had too much of a problem with them.

i got my bolts at napa, and they cost about 30$ a pair. all you have to do is remove the upper strut bolt, and replace it with the camber bolt. takes all of about 5 minutes. just make sure you tell the technician that you have a camber kit, or they most likely wont look. and not adjust them.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

I dont think you are being rude at all. Although I do disagree with you about camber vs. toe tire wear. I have seen cars with -3deg of camber and perfect toe, and I have seen cars with perfect camber and out of spec toe. From my experence the cars with toe problems wear tires faster then cars with camber problems. I do alignments as well(GMC tech). FWIW


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## tim's 95 se-r (Dec 26, 2002)

although, in my opinion, i dont think there is really an excuse to let your alignment get so out of hand that either one becomes an issue. at my work we sell alignment plans up to 5 years, we'll align it every 5000 miles, or more if needed. for free. and i think the plan is only about 150$, not a bad idea really.


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## HKS20DET (Nov 8, 2002)

DOPE, werent u the one asking about the gr2's. the way it seems, u are really throwing yer money away. im not experienced with gr2's but from what people say they are better suited for stock springs. plus u are getting lowering springs. and u might get coilovers later on? then im sure u will need to get new struts because i seriously doubt the gr2's will handle a lower drop on coilovers. IMO i think u jumped the gun and waisted a lot of money in the long run.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2003)

well i spoke with my friend at the nissan dealer locally and he has a sentra with gr-2's and eibach sportlines. and he's had them for over a year now and still ride nice. but i agree with you. i dont believ i will get the gr-2's anymore i'm buying the agx's as soon as i get my tax return. but i have ridden with the goldline springs on my oem struts and:
#1 they ride great
#2 smooth ride, handles well
#3 i realized they are not the stock struts, they are nissan oem struts they have been replaced shortly b4 i bought my car. i checked the service record.. so i'm stright for a while.. btw i barely have any camber..but my tires suck too.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

So can the toe also be adjusted at a local alignment store or is it hard to do?


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2003)

hey i know what camber is.. and i have heard the word toe used quite frequently can some one explain that a lil to me.. ?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Its the term used to describe it your tire point straight ahead, in or out. Like this veiwed from standing on your hood and looking down. I I Straight, / \ Toed in, \ / Toed out.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

Well,
From my R/C days:
camber = whether your tires are tilted towards eachother at the top or not. Matters in cornering for contact patch concerns.
toe = like it sounds. Like feet your tires can be pointed at eachother or away from eachother. Pointed towards eachother makes for twitchiness, away, stability.
caster = the tilt of the pivot holding your suspension/steering assembly. Forward = +, rearward = -. 

http://www.geocities.com/automotive_technology/suspension.htm

Seth


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

setwas, I belive its the other way around. out=twitch, in=stability.
Toe out will make a car initate(sp) a turn faster because its always on the edge of turning(twitchy), to in add stability for the opposite reason. Toe in makes a car want to go straight.


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## sethwas (Apr 30, 2002)

Well,
That depends on where. Toe in in the front makes the car twitchier since the outer tire is turning sharper than the inner one. Toe out in the front makes the car more straight line stable since there is no 'pull' to turn like at toe in.

Seth


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

I was talking at the front.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

"Toe-in front - Car is stable while going straight. Turn in is average/1/8 inch total toe-in 

Toe-out front - Car turns in well, works pretty good in FWD cars as they tend to toe-in under load/1/4 inch total toe out "

Mike Kojima

Nuff said


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

BTW, FWIW the same rules apply to the rear tires as well.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

So can it be adjusted if i lower my car and take it to a guy, toe changes after you lower your car right?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Yes toe can be adjusted after lowering. In fact its easier to change toe then it is to change camber. Unless you have camber plates like I am soon to have. Wahhooo!


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

Nice, hey so are you up to getting the tein springs or what man?


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Me? Tein springs. No, no, no my friend. I have a set of Tein SS coilovers on the way to my house as we speak(type?)


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2003)

nice setup with the teins btw, i had tein ha's on my s13.. well thanx for the lesson with toe.. glad i know what that is now


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

Hey Pat what do you think about the Tein springs, the only thing im worrying about is the very dramatic drop in the front (2.4) and low rate along with it, especially because i cant really do anything to help (like getting mounts,etc..) Do you think ill be ok with those springs, kyb agxs, and polyurethane bumpstops? thanks


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2003)

wow..2.4" in the front.. and how much in the rear..?
what's the spring rates on them.. also where can u get them the cheapest.. my friend has a 200 and he wants springs.. and strust i will tell him to go a sperate route than me.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

2.4 front 1.2 rear

168 front 250 rear


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

Thats why im wondering what Pat thinks about it


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Yeah, I am a little unsure about them. You guys know by now how I feel about lowering springs anyways, right. I would really have to drive a Tein lowering spring equipped car first before I say too much though.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

and theres nothing i can do for the front to help either huh?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2003)

wow.. well that's not that aggressive of a stance in the rear.. but the high spring rate sure does get rid of the floatiness i hear.. i'm sure agx's all around set on the stiffest in the front with the teins and about 5-6 in the rear with some other brand with a lower stance , i.e. sportlines.
that shoudl do it


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

Good idea i didnt think 2 different springs on one car would work right, but how can you order the just the front springs?? i dont think you can do that


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Dont get get one type for the front and something else for the rear. You never know what you will end up with for drivability.


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

Higer rates dont get rid of float. It the dampers job to get rid of float.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

i know thats what i was saying too, i still dont know what to get. keep my dropzones or get the Tein springs, but im worried about the front drop, i dont kow what to do.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

> but im worried about the front drop, i dont kow what to do.


I was talking about the Teins up there btw


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2003)

ohh sorry.. pat ur toatlly correct..didnt toatlly mean that.. i meanrt to say the with the ag'xs all around you would be able to take car of the flat in the rear as well... but wont need to set it as stiff as the front.. put the front on 1 or 2 and the rear on 5 or 6.. actually just paly with it.. thengo with the teins in front. (i love the fact that they have a lower stance.. and then a nice spring in the rear.. , even. eibach sportline, or even goldline. that is what i am using now.but there still is a little too much float. too bad i haev gr-2's as soon as i get my tax return money back i think i may buy tein's for the front and agx's all around.. can any point me in the direction to buy some teins?
shmuck.. why worry bout the front drop.. too low?,,, dont worry.. i know plenty of people with 3"-3.5"


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

I know theyre a very good company especially japanese quality and i mean they are engineers, they know what they're doing, but im afraid and pretty paranoid especially from reading posts (like "eibach problems"), ppl say 2.4 in the front is too much but im gonna have kyb agx, polyurethan bump stops, and hopefully Tein springs, see the group buy for the Teins if u wanna join 

Peace


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2003)

i am interested.. but i also may want to buy them later.. does anyone know where i can get them, other than the tein website? thanx


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## PatScottAKA99XE (Apr 30, 2002)

www.ilpperformance.com Thats were I ordered my SS coilovers from.


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## shmuck90 (Oct 28, 2002)

You can get them for 160 with our group buy we need one more person atleast


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2003)

yeah well i would.. but i only need the front.. thanx


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