# Trouble starting when hot



## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

So, I've been reading alot concerning why my 200 spits-and-coughs-and refuses-to-just-wake-up-and-gallop-off when I turn the key? Basically, here's the story.

Start up cold in the morning in the garage=perfect start. Fuel pump hisses, lights all come on, and the beautiful 1.6L whirs to life, idling normally.
Park it in the parking lot at the university after about a 30 minute drive without any unusual strain on the engine.
If its a sunny day, doesn't even have to be all that warm out, just sunny, then when I go out to the car after school, sit inside, turn the key, here's what happens...
Fuel pump hisses like normal
Lights come on
Turn the key, starter cranks
Engine starts, revs up to about 1100 rpms like they do for the first second
Tacho drops down to about 200 rpms for about 5 seconds and the engine starts to struggle to stay alive.
Sometimes, it'll die right then and there. Other times, it'll come back to life and idle normally about 10 seconds after the starter initially cranked. Other times, it won't start at all and I'll have to wait a few minutes and try again.

I've seen alot about trouble starting, but not under these conditions and not in this manner. Advice? Comments? Anything helps...


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

If you haven't given it a full tune up lately, that's step 1.
Past that, pop the distributor cap and rotor and take a good look down in there, see if you've got a film of oil covering everything. I haven't had this particular problem yet, but have read a number of threads where other people have had oil in their distributor caused by a bad internal seal and causing all sorts of engine stupidness. My thought train is that maybe you're getting enough oil in there to mess with the "cam sensor" and overnight it's able to run down out of the way, whereas maybe 8 hours during school isn't enough to let it dribble down.
Same thing with the crank sensor. Those things cause all sort of engine stupidness. Personally I've had the crank sensor go stupid in both of my B14's. And in both cases, nothing pointed directly to the sensor (intermittent stumbles, intermittent extended cranking times, intermittent once-in-awhile engine completely cutouts, etc), but if you took everything with a grain of salt, and kinda looked sideways at the engine, all the symptoms kinda/sorta led back towards a crappy crank sensor, and in both cases, a new one fixed the intermittent stupid.


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

In addition to ^^above^^ post, I would also do a fuel pressure leakdown test to make sure the fuel injectors aren't bleeding down and subsequently fouling the spark plugs during startup.


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## EvilPotato (Sep 6, 2005)

another thing, when it's cold, the fast idle cam element partially opens the throttle plate to prevent the engine from stalling or running overly sluggish, when the engine is warmed up, it lets the throttle plate fully close and your engine relies only on the idle air control valve for idle. clogged/malfunctioning IACV could cause stalling


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## Perieslend (Aug 31, 2012)

hmm...... I too have not come across such type of problem with my car but I think this may be also just because of some sort of problem regarding the radiator or coolant level... not sure but I guess, it may be.
Hey if you get fix the problem, PM back, so that if ever I come across such problem, it will be quite handy to resolve it.


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Sorry for the long delay, I haven't had any real time to peek under the hood until a few days ago. Anyway, here's what I did, in order of the advice I got.

I don't know when the last FULL MECHANICAL tune-up happened, i've only owned my 200 for about 5,000 miles. In that time, I've done all the general upkeep as well as replaced the clutch, tuned the brakes. That includes fluids, some replacement parts, cleaning stuff like the MAF, valves, etc and general things like that. I popped the distributor and didn't notice anything suspicious, however one of the distributor cables wasn't seated well in the terminal. So when I reassembled, i got it all the way in and made sure it was seated properly.

concerning a fuel pressure leakdown test, i didn't have enough time under the hood to research what that means or how to do it, but i'll try that when i get the chance.

when inspecting the IACV, i noticed that the inlet from the intake to the hose that runs to the IACV is much smaller then the stock one. This is because i installed a short ram intake and the aluminum pipe it comes with has a smaller inlet for that section of hose. I guess this means there is restricted airflow to the IACV, so could that possibly be the problem? I'm not familiar with how much air an IACV needs, but it might have something to do with it.

finally, with regard to the radiator coolant levels, everything checks out as normal. however, on a sidenote, a few months ago my 200 spat out a "low coolant level" code, even though I checked and everything was normal. I cleared the code and dismissed it as an electrical problem because i had just replaced the clutch so i suspected I might have done something to trip a sensor somewhere.

So far, no other codes, aside from a pesky O2 sensor which comes on and off every once in a while. Seems to be faulty wire...

The good news however, is that I haven't had any problems since I fixed that distributor cable. Maybe that actually fixed it? I honestly don't know. I'll try to be more consistent with getting on here so I can TRULY get this fixed 
Thanks guys


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## Jdoggsc (Dec 25, 2007)

A bad connection to the distributor means means weak, or inconsistent spark, which causes misfiring and therefore hesitation and spitting and coughing. I wouldn't be surprised if you found it. As far as the iacv, it will open more if it needs more air to maintain idle. Its only when it can't get even the needed amount when fully open that you will have a problem with choking, and that would only be at idle--not while driving.

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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Jdoggsc said:


> A bad connection to the distributor means means weak, or inconsistent spark, which causes misfiring and therefore hesitation and spitting and coughing. I wouldn't be surprised if you found it. As far as the iacv, it will open more if it needs more air to maintain idle. Its only when it can't get even the needed amount when fully open that you will have a problem with choking, and that would only be at idle--not while driving.


ok that makes sense, but what i'm wondering is whether or not the intake hose i have going to the IACV would be small enough to limit the air flow enough to interrupt the proper function of the IACV?
and just another update, i haven't had any problems since i peeked under the hood and readjusted that distributor cable


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## Jdoggsc (Dec 25, 2007)

If you're not having problems, then I wouldnt worry too much about it. I'm sure your iacv is opening more than mine is to maintain the same idle, if that is what you mean by interrupting proper function. Try this : turn on headlights, rear defrost, radio, full AC, and anything else you can think of that would put a load (electrical or otherwise) on the engine. Does the engine stumble at idle? If no, then turn the steering wheel as well, with everything still on so the steering pump puts an additional load on. Does it stumble while steering? Rpm will Likely decrease a bit, but im talking about choking. If no, then the iacv isn't limited enough to cause problems.

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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Jdoggsc said:


> If you're not having problems, then I wouldnt worry too much about it. I'm sure your iacv is opening more than mine is to maintain the same idle, if that is what you mean by interrupting proper function. Try this : turn on headlights, rear defrost, radio, full AC, and anything else you can think of that would put a load (electrical or otherwise) on the engine. Does the engine stumble at idle? If no, then turn the steering wheel as well, with everything still on so the steering pump puts an additional load on. Does it stumble while steering? Rpm will Likely decrease a bit, but im talking about choking. If no, then the iacv isn't limited enough to cause problems./QUOTE]
> 
> i did what you said this morning when i started. turned on every possible load on the engine/alternator/battery, including the subwoofers and sound system. it started up fine (though i cranked it a bit longer then i should have because i couldn't hear the motor over all the fans and music stuff. so i suppose that means no problems with the IACV, and so far, no problems to speak of whatsoever!
> i guess this thread is dead now?


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Here's the latest developments...

The car has gone back to it's usual self, and on top of that, its getting worse. however, i've tried a fuel pump trick that i read up a little while ago which solves everything.
If I turn the key and i can tell the engine isn't starting, i turn off the ignition, reach down, and pop out the fuel pump fuse. don't even have to wait or anything, once the fuse is out, turn the key: the car starts right up like it probably did the day it rolled out of the factory. Perfect start. No over-rev, no wierd bouncing of the tacho in idle. Perfect smooth start.
Now, before the engine dies because there isn't any fuel, i pop the fuse back in, the fuel pump whirs to life, and the engine continues to run.

So then, i'm correct in concluding that its a fuel problem. Sounds like injectors are bleeding fuel into the chamber and drowning the plugs. And thats what alot of you mentioned earlier on in this thread. But where do I go from there? New plugs? New injectors? New fuel pump?
Thanks in advance for anyone who replies to what seemed to be a dead thread


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

And did you do the complete and full tune up, as well as a fuel pressure check, and anything else mentioned here?
A) A complete tune up would rule out a lot of things.
B) The fuel pressure leak down check would've answered your injector bleeding question a long time ago.


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

How do I go about doing a fuel pressure leakdown on the B14? I understand how it works, but where specifically do I connect the fuel gauge? I might swing by OreillyAuto later today and just ask them for a fuel gauge for my car specifically. But just in case I don't get any good advice from them, I'd like a fallback from the knowledgeable crew here


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## thxone (Feb 7, 2012)

Fuel injector needles or sprayers will collect deposits that wont let them fully seat closed and could conceivably cause a fuel leak into the engine. You could also run fuel injector cleaner through several tanks of gas or clean the injectors yourself (videos on Youtube) or have them cleaned or buy new ones. Fuel filter can also be changed.


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

ok, so I can't find a fuel gauge anywhere! and the shops aren't being very helpful. is it supposed to attach to the fuel rail? through what kind of valve or connection?


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

The shops aren't gonna be helpful because you aren't paying them to do the work.
You tap off ( T off ) the fuel pressure feed line that goes into the fuel rail itself, comes up the firewall, then angles forward to the rail.
You're gonna have to cut the line in half to T- into it and replace that line when you're done.
Use high pressure fuel injection gas line...none of that low pressure stuff or you'll end up with a line that's ballooned, filled with gas and ready to blow.


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

The fuel pressure test gauge uses a "T" fitting that connects between the fuel filter outlet and the fuel hose. The system is pressurized and pinch clamps or pinch pliers are use on the fuel hose before the test gauge and after the fuel rail, on the return line hose. 

Fuel pressure test gauge:
Fuel Pressure Tester & Fuel Injection Pump Tester

Pinch pliers:
Search results for: 'pinch pliers'


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

So is this kinda' what i'm looking for? Looks like autozone might have some.

Actron/Vacuum and pressure tester kit (CP7803) | Fuel Pressure Tester | AutoZone.com

And I'm guessing i can't just leave that hanging off my fuel line once i put it in? I have to buy a new fuel line if I want to do some serious driving after doing the leak down test? If not, I'd just leave it there so I can always pop the hood and check it after it sits overnight or something...


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

smj999smj said:


> The fuel pressure test gauge uses a "T" fitting that connects between the fuel filter outlet and the fuel hose. The system is pressurized and pinch clamps or pinch pliers are use on the fuel hose before the test gauge and after the fuel rail, on the return line hose.
> 
> Fuel pressure test gauge:
> Fuel Pressure Tester & Fuel Injection Pump Tester
> ...


whoops, didn't even notice those links  there is a harbor freight on my way to the university on monday, i'll swing by and grab that while its on sale :-D


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## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

This is what you'll need:

Actron/Pro fuel tester kit (CP7838) | Fuel Pressure Tester | AutoZone.com

Fuel pressure leakdown test only takes 30 mins. and the engine should not be running after the test. When you're done, remove the gauge. You don't need to buy any fuel hose. The kit you showed is for vacuum testing and carburated engines, not for fuel injection.


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

The nearest Harbor freights and autozone's didn't have any of those. I'll have to order online...


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Swung by another autozone today and they had a fuel pressure testing kit for rent. $150 bucks to rent the thing, and if u don't bring it back within 90 days, keep it cuz its yours. bring it back within the allotted time, and the entire purchase is refunded. really sweet deal. so i'm gonna grab some cash and go get it tomorrow. what exactly am i looking for though? just a drop in pressure overnight? how significant of a drop should it be? thanks for all the help so far


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Ok, so here is a rather lengthy update for those who by some slim chance may still be paying attention. 
I got a fuel gauge, and it took my three trips to NAPA just to get the right hose, seems like the rubber material wasn't right the first two times. After taking care of all the leaks, started her up, annnnnnnnnd.....................nothing.
Cranked, fuel, air, spark. Everything checked out. Sat in the shop while I struggled to find a problem. Computer spat out a P0125 code, which is apparently the engine coolant temperature sensor for closed loop fuel control. Whatever that means. Anyway, popped out the sensor, glanced around, seemed fine and resistance seemed fine when cold (though i don't know what it is supposed to be exactly). Made the mistake of popping the radiator cap while doing so and a whole bunch of coolant spat out of the ECT and got everywhere. Put the cap back on, cleaned up the engine a tad, put the engine coolant temp sensor sensor back in, and topped off the engine with some coolant.
Then figured i would pull the plugs out, glance into the cylinders, and clean them up (for the second time since i started this thread). Cranked it first, pulled out the plugs, and it looked like someone had tried to water-board them with fuel. Cleaned up the tips, cranked it without plugs to test compression (70-130-90-150 for cylinders 1-2-3-4 from left to right) and then popped the plugs back in. Cranked the engine, i could tell it was trying to start but had way too much fuel. Pulled the fuel pump fuse, cranked the engine again, started right up. Before she died, popped the fuse back in and let her warm up. Once she was warm, pulled the plugs, and tested compression again. 155psi for all four cylinders (much more encouraging). 
Anyways, i'm getting new improved plugs tomorrow just to be safe, and a new fuel filter - just because i can and probably should at a 112K. Also she's in need of an oil change. But other than that, any ideas on how to check which cylinders are flooding and how badly? I'll be running injector cleaner in my tank on next fill as well.


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

always_shifting said:


> Computer spat out a P0125 code, which is apparently the engine coolant temperature sensor for closed loop fuel control. Whatever that means.


Google, WIKI, everything you just mentioned, P0125, coolant temp sensor, closed loop fuel control, it ALL ties together in this case. Read and you'll figure it out.



> Anyway, popped out the sensor, glanced around, seemed fine and resistance seemed fine when cold (though i don't know what it is supposed to be exactly).


If you feel like taking the sensor out (and probably making a mess in the process), put the sensor in the freezer for awhile, measure the resistance, put the sensor in a pan of boiling water, measure the resistance. It should be substantially less when hot.



> cranked it without plugs to test compression (70-130-90-150 for cylinders 1-2-3-4 from left to right)


The numbers are a bit low, but the engine has been sitting awhile, and all that extra fuel probably washed away any oil film on the cylinder walls. I wouldn't worry about it too much since you mention that the compression came back up later...but...it is kinda indicative of an older engine. Rings most likely aren't gone yet, but they obviously aren't new.



> Cranked the engine, i could tell it was trying to start but had way too much fuel.


And if you do the reading as stated after the first quote above, you'll see why it had way too much fuel.



> and tested compression again. 155psi for all four cylinders (much more encouraging).


When you're doing the compression checks, I'm assuming you're pulling all the plugs out first. Are you also blocking the gas pedal wide open?



> new improved plugs tomorrow just to be safe


Stock NGK plugs...or you'll be back asking more questions and the fix will be NGK plugs.



> Also she's in need of an oil change.


Which in addition to the fuel washing the oil film down the cylinder walls, old oil probably doesn't help the compression numbers there either.



> But other than that, any ideas on how to check which cylinders are flooding and how badly? I'll be running injector cleaner in my tank on next fill as well.


Read as noted above and you'll see why you'd be spinning your wheels (or not) trying to narrow it down to an individual cylinder.

Also, what did the fuel pressures read before and after it sat for awhile?

Still haven't ruled out a rotten/flaky crank sensor or cam sensor. They're a bit tough to troubleshoot without decent equipment and short of just replacing them, probably easier to rule out other causes for now.


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## always_shifting (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions jdg, so from my reading, and some searches on forums, i'm hearing quite a bit of talk about swapping my ETS with one from a pathy since they have higher start temperatures. Couldn't I just wire in a potentiometer to make trick the computer into thinking the engine is warmer then it is? My ETS measured out 360 ohms after running the engine for about 10 minutes, and 4,000 ohms when ice-cold after sitting for several hours at the home depot parking lot (where i work). It was 38F outside so keep that in mind. Swapped for NGK stock plugs just like you said, and replaced my fuel filter to be safe. I can get a coolant temp sensor for the pathfinder at NAPA, anyone care to confirm my research?


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## jdg (Aug 27, 2009)

Or you can get a Haynes manual or similar and find out if 360 ohm warm (what's warm? ran the engine for 10 minutes? How warm is it?) & 4000 ohms cold (what's cold? sat outside for a few hours? How cold is it?) is good at those temperatures.
Pot of boiling water = 212 degrees...resistance value? follow the graph
Ice water < 32 degrees...resistance value? follow the graph
Warm engine = ???...resistance value? follow the...oh...don't know the temperature
Cold engine = ???...resistance value? follow the...oh...still don't know the temperature

Sure, you could probably buy a pot to simulate the temperature sensor and try 6,000 other ways to get around the problem, or you can fix it right the first time.
Try and find a 100K+ pot with enough resolution to get any sort of accuracy at the low end....unless you buy a 25 turn log pot. Good luck finding one of those...


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