# Do I really need to change the timing chain every 60K?



## fumehood (Dec 30, 2007)

I have a 93 SE-V6 King Cab 4x4 with 120,000. My understanding is I should replace the timing chain every 60K. I replaced it at 60K, do I really need to replace it again at 120K? The truck is 15 years old and is in really great condition, except for the paint pealing off. Blue Book is only about $3000, so I am having a hard time justifying spending almost $1000 to get it replaced again. I was wondering how many miles people really get out of their chains? 

I was thinking of getting a new Frontier, but decided that if Nissan was not able to increase the gas mileage, not even 1mpg, of the V6 in 15 years then I'll try to wait it out and hope that the new mileage requirements will boost all small trucks gas mileage a couple of mpg.


----------



## Z_Rated (Apr 29, 2006)

The '93 V6 has a belt, not chain (to my knowledge). Would be wise to replace it as suggested. Z


----------



## 88pathoffroad (Jun 6, 2004)

Ditto. It's cheaper to replace a belt and tensioner than it is to rebuild the engine or buy a new engine if the belt breaks.


----------



## PerogyBoy (Oct 6, 2007)

My 87 HB suffered a broken timing belt change because I ignored
Nissan's advice. It cost me about $1500 to repair, and taught me a valuable
lesson: when an expert tells me something...LISTEN.

Change your timing belt as required. Otherwise, it'll break when you least
want it to. I change mine every 100,000 Km. My 87 has nearly 300,000 Km on it.


----------



## lumbee (Mar 20, 2005)

...while we'r on this, is the same true for the K24E with the chain? I always heard if a car/truck has a timing chain (as opposed to belt) that it does not need to be replaced at regular intervals.


----------



## gogiburn (Dec 17, 2007)

*NO you don't have to change a TIMING CHAIN*



lumbee said:


> ...while we'r on this, is the same true for the K24E with the chain? I always heard if a car/truck has a timing chain (as opposed to belt) that it does not need to be replaced at regular intervals.


Timing chains usually last way past the life of the vehicle.Timing belt are a different story.They are built in money makers for dealers


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

fumehood said:


> I have a 93 SE-V6 King Cab 4x4 with 120,000. My understanding is I should replace the timing chain every 60K. I replaced it at 60K, do I really need to replace it again at 120K? The truck is 15 years old and is in really great condition, except for the paint pealing off. Blue Book is only about $3000, so I am having a hard time justifying spending almost $1000 to get it replaced again. I was wondering how many miles people really get out of their chains?
> 
> I was thinking of getting a new Frontier, but decided that if Nissan was not able to increase the gas mileage, not even 1mpg, of the V6 in 15 years then I'll try to wait it out and hope that the new mileage requirements will boost all small trucks gas mileage a couple of mpg.


I hear ya on the mpg's. What really needs to happen is an opening of small diesel truck sales in the US. It boggles my mind why we are unable to purchase these while they are sold everywhere else around the world. I see Nissan and Toyota diesel pickups all over Costa Rica when i'm there, they're cool.


----------



## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

lumbee,

for the most part it is not the chain that goes bad it is the timing chain guides that wear out or break thus causing the chain to do things it was not designed to do.

i have a nissan z24 engine and it has the simplex chain and has well over 500 k miles that is still going strong..


----------



## lmj001 (Dec 28, 2007)

i would have it check at about 80,000 the guides are plastic and they brake making the chain stretch good luck...thats if you have a ka2.4e


----------



## lumbee (Mar 20, 2005)

...I get quite a bit of rattle when the truck 1st starts...from reading other posts, I'm assuming its the cam chain. I'm approaching 200K, and assume nothing has been replaced with the chain/guides. Whats the most prudent approach...just replacing the guides?


----------



## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

lumbee said:


> ...I get quite a bit of rattle when the truck 1st starts...from reading other posts, I'm assuming its the cam chain. I'm approaching 200K, and assume nothing has been replaced with the chain/guides. Whats the most prudent approach...just replacing the guides?



The early KA-series engines used a plastic, fixed guide that was prone to breakage. The guide was revised to a metal-backed guide and started into production models about '94. While the plastic guide was a problem, it rooted from slack in the timing chain caused by low oil pressure to the oil-fed chain tensioner. This usually happened when small bits of sludge or debris made their way into the oil port to the tensioner and restricted the flow of oil to it.

The usual fix is to replace the tensioner and install the revised fixed guide with bolts (if applicable) and blow clear the oil channel to the tensioner (remove the oil filter and used brake cleaner and compressed air). Replace the oil and filter. If you have a substantial amount of miles on the engine, it would probably be a good idea to replace the chain sprockets while you're there. If you have the early style engine with the plastic fixed guide and the guide was broken, you should also inspect the front cover for damage and replace as necessary.


----------



## schristi69 (Dec 27, 2007)

DO IT!!! I had one of the first model year Hardbody trucks. I put off doing mine toolong ans suffered the concequences. I was going to take it in on the next Monday at about 64K miles and that Sunday it snapped. Bent every valve in the engine. Luckily it did not punch a hole in any pistons or do any head damage. My bill was around $2,000 instead of the $600.00 it would have taken at the time. There is no warning, it just goes and takes your upper end with it.


----------



## sunspryte (Jan 2, 2008)

I would advise replacing the timing belt as suggested. I don't trust those belts ever since I had one go out on me and ended up putting a piston through the block going down the interstate. And it was only 6k over it's suggested replacement, which voided the warranty in my case.


----------



## lumbee (Mar 20, 2005)

> it rooted from slack in the timing chain caused by low oil pressure to the oil-fed chain tensioner.


...is this why you hear the cam chain on startup? ...because it takes a few sec. for oil pressure to build up and tension the chain?


----------



## lmj001 (Dec 28, 2007)

i would replace it all auto zone sells a complete timing kit that has all the parts you,ll need for about $100.00 just make sure you time it right the first time because the engine has zero clearance for the valves and piston....


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

what is the correct timing for the ka24e?


----------



## Z_Rated (Apr 29, 2006)

Ignition timing is 10 degrees (+/- 2 degrees) BTDC at idle speed, which is 800 (+/-50) for both AT and MT 
as per '91 FSM (factory service manual). Z


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

I have a 95. Do I need to worry about the timing being off? Doesn't the ECU control the timing?


----------



## Z_Rated (Apr 29, 2006)

Wouldn't hurt to check the timing, more so being pre OBDII. Vehicle performance usually is a good indicator. Also, the KA24Es are all chain driven as far as I know. Z


----------



## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

lumbee said:


> ...is this why you hear the cam chain on startup? ...because it takes a few sec. for oil pressure to build up and tension the chain?


If the port is restricted or the engine has sat for a long period of time, yes, you will usually hear the chain rattle until the oil pressure has built up at the chain tensioner. If one has the early-style, plastic, fixed chain guides that has started to break, the rattle will generally get worse as the guide continues to break apart as the guide no longer is capable of doing what it was intended to do. 

Nissan actually updated the KA24E tensioner and slack-side guide in the 89-90 240SX due to chain rattle caused by oil bleed back. They did a similar thing in the VQ-series V6 in the 95-96 Maximas. Later engines all has this revision from the factory. When the fixed, plastic guide got really bad in the KA24E in the 240SX and Hbody, the chain would start to cut into the water jacket of the timing cover, leading to aluminum shavings falling into the oil pain and eventually coolant leaking into the engine.


----------



## smj999smj (Jan 1, 2006)

BeachBuggy said:


> I have a 95. Do I need to worry about the timing being off? Doesn't the ECU control the timing?


The ECU controls the timing advance, not the base timing. The base timing needs to be manually adjusted, if out of spec.


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

What does the timing chain rattle sound like. My 95 rattles on cold start ups for a couple seconds then goes away. The noise is very tinny though, almost sounds like something rattling on my exhaust system. I was kinda hoping that's what it is, but that doesn't explain why it does it on cold start ups. My truck only has 73,000 mi on it, but I believe the previous owner sat it for some time before he sold it to me. Would this have any effect of the oil pressure to the tensioner? What should I do? Is there any test I can perform to see if it is really the timing chain?


----------



## lumbee (Mar 20, 2005)

...yeah beachbuggy, mine sounds like exhaust too..I though thats what it was til reading this thread. I'm not planning on doing anything with mine. From what I gather the 95 should have the metal guides (instead of plastic in the earlier models). Only if I need a weekend project at some point I may buy the kit and replace it...


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

It seems like a time consuming job to expose the timing chain. Is there any other way you can free up the blockage of oil to the tensioner? Like using an engine flush or something? I just switched to synthetic oil, will that help at all?


----------



## lumbee (Mar 20, 2005)

...theres no blockage, thats why the noise goes away in a few seconds...it takes a few seconds for the oil pressure to build up and put tension on the tensioner, and thus on the cam chain.


----------



## Rogue_Wulff (Nov 14, 2007)

The best way to minimize the rattle, is use an oil filter that has an anti-drainback valve in it. Most cheap oil filters (including fram) do not have these. Wix filters have them.
The valve keeps the oil from draining out of the filter while the engine is off, resulting in a quicker flow upon startup, and quicker oil pressure to the tensioner.

The timing chain guide can be checked by removing the valve cover, and looking down the front of the engine. 90-93 models had a plastic guide, while sometime during the 94 model year it was changed to metal. Usually, the plastic guide is easily noticeable, as it will not be in place.


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

My 95 has 73,000 mi on it and rattles occasionally on start ups. How much time do I have before this rattle can cause, if at all, a serious problem? Thanks for all the help.


----------



## lumbee (Mar 20, 2005)

...from all I've read its not something to worry about. Worse case scenario is it eats through the guide, then into the water pump cover. Then fluid would leak into the engine oil, and crap out the motor. That being said, that WAS a problem with the older plastic guides, but not the metal guides. Seeing as folks have 200 and 300K on motors and have never changed them, I don't think you should worry about it...


----------



## Rogue_Wulff (Nov 14, 2007)

lumbee said:


> ...from all I've read its not something to worry about. Worse case scenario is it eats through the guide, then into the water pump cover. Then fluid would leak into the engine oil, and crap out the motor. That being said, that WAS a problem with the older plastic guides, but not the metal guides. Seeing as folks have 200 and 300K on motors and have never changed them, I don't think you should worry about it...


222K currently, with the original plastic guide laying in the pan (confirmed by pulling the valve cover). New parts laying here, but haven't had decent enough weather to get them installed. :lame:


----------



## Benji97XE (Oct 8, 2007)

I have a '97 2x4 w/103k on the clock. Yes my truck too has chain rattle at startup (only startup), sometimes pretty loud too... I pulled the valve cover and the guides look alright. I guessing it's a clogged tensioner situation. Should I wait on it or get it fixed ASAP? Do I need to worry about the chain rubbing through the front cover when it slaps against it., or is that mostly a problem with the old plastic only guides?


----------



## BeachBuggy (Dec 22, 2007)

Benji......seems like from the advice i got with the same problem was just not worry about it. Apparently with the metal guides we don't have to worry about them breaking off. It's just gonna make a little noise.


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

really, until something breaks in an engine, which won't happen unless you over revs/ rev too long/not change oil and filter, it'll be fine. i've got the 240's you see below and still have the original guides and tensioners AND chains... now i was gonna change out with new chains... at 218000 but effed that up because the stealership told me 10-15 lbs on the camshaft brackets and it turned out to be 8.71, and right now i'm having to do a full rebuild wi/ old chains. *block rebuild's cuz of oil starvation/moronic previous owner*

old chains do stretch over the 20 years they've been alive, and will break, per the guy in early post in this thread about it happening to him. but for the most part when in a situation like this if you take it nice and easy on your car it will last you til you can do the work required to change out the chains. not so for belts like everyone else knows. unless just by chance ...it doesn't. it's a risk, as is a lot of things on older cars. but being easy on the car, the chances are it won't break it ......a little okay i guess.. i'll find out i guess. ;]

as for the guides, a common "project" for 240 owners was to remove the VC and then the top front cover.... extremely easy and cheap project... all you need is the brand new VC gasket which i recommend using anyways cuz it has the half circles as a part of the rest of the gasket rather than them being seperate hard plastics you have to seal in... the new gasket is just rubber, and you use NO sealant. sides that, a bottle of sealant for the front top cover. you remove the cover and take out the top and right guides... thing is, as they were just talking about the chain running through the cover.... well... i did this project on my other 240 and when things happened *non-related* i was able to see what this actually did... yes the rattle went away but i noticed on the VC, there was starting to be very very slight chain rub... barely, but still noticable. so looking at the front of the engine i decided that the right one isn't needed because of the angle of the double chain going toward the idle sprocket *the sprocket that you KA24e owners have at the top... i've got and then a double chain coming off that and going up to the DOHC*.... basically the chain comes nowhere near the cover on the right side of the chain, BUT since i saw the wear on the VC, i went ahead and put the ORIGINAL upper guide back on.

now i had 3 guides to inspect from my 3 200,000mile+ engines, and all of them except one still looked like there was still plenty of life in them. *which btw, in my 92 models, the guide itself is hard plasic, but the brace that it is attached to that attaches it to the head is metal, so what actually breaks off is not the whole guide, but rather small pieces of the guide surface til it gets down to the metal brace and then if by chance it hits the guide hard enough will break the chain* but one of them did have lil chunks missing off the guide brace (off the car that was RACED often)... which were at the oil pan, found later, because they are a: too big to get lodged somehow in a camshaft which is closest to where it breaks off and b: too large to be picked up by the oil strainer and lodged in a crank bearing or tensioner BUT! they are just the right size to get lodged between the chain as it hits the cam and idle sprocket teeth... so there's still a chance that they can flow through the system and lodge places like... main/rod bearings... camshaft journals.... and the tensioner which would cause a big problem, but the tensioner still has a spring in it so with a lil lack of oil pressure, it'd still push a lil, just not as much.

the only other thing that (on an engine that hasn't had a spun bearing because the intelligent owner constantly changed out the oil on the car) can break off and cause severe damage (and i'm speaking of a stock car... no upgrades that would fail or cause part failure) ....is the chain!

there's only 4 things that can clog/oil starve bearings... which is the whole reason for the oil filter. duh... but... the guide plastic, the chain, *if you took off the top chain guide* the VC slivers, and the crank bearings if you foolishly let your car run out of oil. course there's other things like an effed up piston but it'd be very rare for a part of a piston, like maybe one of the compression rings or the oil ring have a piece come off.

as for rebuilding an engine after something like this occurs... you have to maticulously clean EVERY SINGLE part. like they were saying about the tensioners having blockage due to dirty oil.. i cleaned mine, i've cleaned everything... but say there's one lil sliver from the past that i missed hiding somewhere under a cranny *and i've tried to keep it as clean as a clean room could but there's just no way, but soaking the oil pan in gas helped loosen them enough to use a hose to spray them out and then wipe with a rag cuz lent is less dangerous than metal slivers*... ...one lil sliver hiding hypothetically that could stop up a tensioner/crankbearing/camjournal, but the likelyness of this is dramatically decreased by simply putting a magnet or a magnetic oilplug on the oil pan, course... that doesn't mean that with the fast flow, ....eh... not too fast of flow, oil, while you're doing, say.. 5000 rpms that this magnet will catch that one sliver. but it increases the probability. problem is... the guide that you need to save your VC and in other cases your coolant wall.... is plastic. so, you've got a choice. slivers, or plastic chunks. i put the guide back in cuz that's easily replaced compared to a VC or front cover, or anything else that could go wrong.

whenever you open your engine you should always do an oil change a lil ways down the road because if one piece of grit got in there, you just hope that moved to the bottom of the pan and isn't scratching your cam journals *making you have to rebore/find expensive inserts/or completely buy a new cylinder head* or your crank bearings making you have to buy a whole new engine *it being cheaper than rebuilding*.... though... when that happens, give me your engine cuz i'll keep it and rebuild it... 


not to mention you do the oil change purely for the fact that there is lent in the air... and an engine that has never had it's VC taken off is very unlikely for anyone with a car that's been worked on or older than 5 years old.

engines that's never been opened are completely clean!... nothing but oil and parts in there. as soon as you open it up... there's now oil, parts and a hair.... sounds rediculous to even bother with but the clearances on bearings and journals are so small that lent can eff up an engine. even more so if the engine has 200,000+ miles on it.

pretty much all this crap is all you can do to keep your engine going for as long as you can.....

this i think is the reason why they use timing belts instead of chains... because if you think about it.. wi/o the chain and guides for the chain, the only thing that would eff up your engine is oil sludge from not changing your oil regularly. or a lazy, untrustworthy mechanic that opened your engine. but as long as you change your oil A LOT.. there's no reason to. being the reason why you see some well taken care of Toyota's that last to over 400,000 miles.

......wait... lol take that last part back... the second thing is combustion deposits on your valves and pistons/ bores and the chamber....


----------



## bkea (Feb 4, 2005)

To get back to the orignal problem...I would think you could find a competent independent shop to do a timing belt for less than $1000. It would only cost me $500 for my 4runner and it should be about the same.


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

aren't timing belts pretty easy?

they're on the outside of the engine..


----------



## azmike (Jan 27, 2008)

fumehood said:


> I have a 93 SE-V6 King Cab 4x4 with 120,000. My understanding is I should replace the timing chain every 60K. I replaced it at 60K, do I really need to replace it again at 120K? The truck is 15 years old and is in really great condition, except for the paint pealing off. Blue Book is only about $3000, so I am having a hard time justifying spending almost $1000 to get it replaced again. I was wondering how many miles people really get out of their chains?
> 
> I was thinking of getting a new Frontier, but decided that if Nissan was not able to increase the gas mileage, not even 1mpg, of the V6 in 15 years then I'll try to wait it out and hope that the new mileage requirements will boost all small trucks gas mileage a couple of mpg.


Unbelieveable but true, even if you have a chain it has to be replaced when they say. Had I known one has to change the timing chain as if it were an oil change I would never have bought the truck, NEW, they don't tell ya that STUFF. I can see every 120k but every 60k, whata joke.

I have an 87.5 HB kingcab 4x4, 4 cly, z28. I came to find out that the timing chain had to be changed frequently the older it got. The chain would start rubbing on the chain cover. 

I had to change it so many times, 4 times and now going on the 5th, I just used plastic ties to hold the grill & radiator in, I would just cut them and pull out the radiator. I have 220k on my truck. It would have cost $400 the first time & progressively more. U can guess what I told those pukes at the repair shop. It costs about $150.00 for the parts, the more u do it the faster u get.

By the way I change oil & filter every 3k miles, and do all proper maintence. U can't always go with Nissan recommendations, the book I got said change oil 7k miles.


----------



## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

the v6 has the 60 k miles chain replacement.
the ka is a little longer.

the z24 has the ability to never be replaced..that is they expected this truck to run 250 k miles with no troubles.

i have a z24 engine that has well over 500 k miles and it is a daily driver . it s the simplex timing chain and has never been replaced.


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

shiiiii^... like i said.. all three of my engines had the original... maybe a lil stretched, but 2 of the car's were raced all the time, and one probably. and all are 180+... 2 @ 215+... all with the original chains. 

even though it's scary... but i put the original back on out of NEED on a 215+ and the engine was rebuilt.


----------



## azmike (Jan 27, 2008)

zanegrey said:


> the v6 has the 60 k miles chain replacement.
> the ka is a little longer.
> 
> the z24 has the ability to never be replaced..that is they expected this truck to run 250 k miles with no troubles.
> ...


Correction,I probably have the z24i. It's the 86.5 4 cyl. 

Your z24 is the 4cyl, right.

Why do u think my timing chain and ajuster needed to be replced so many times? It was rubbing on the caseing, u know the sound of chain turning and rubbing on a case, it sound like a Harley. The ajuster was worn out also. It seemed that the chain streched. 

I'd like to get another 250k out of my truck. I'm impressed with your experiance. 

Thanks for your feedback.


----------



## sharpeusn (May 9, 2007)

I agree with http://www.nissanforums.com/members/zanegrey.html on this on I have a KA24 with 617,000 Mi on it and as to my knowledge the chain or tension was never replaced.


----------



## sharpeusn (May 9, 2007)

By the way its easy and a hell of lot cheaper just to do it youself. I had to on a 86.5 Z24 when I replaced the head gasket. (I was just a kid at the time didnt really know much about engines and I dropped the chain into the oil pan.) Then the tensioner broke.


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

same with KADE.
it's a hella lot of work, but way worth spending 200 max if you do it just right, rather than 2G's at a shop sometimes... could be 300-600 at the right shop, but you have to..know..that you're not torquing, you're not filling fluids, you're not cleaning, you're not specking. so, who's to say you're work, tediously-maticulously rebuilding, isn't better than whatever "cheap, but ok" shop you're going to just to afford it.

once you do it once it's in your head for good.. and you'll be damn sure more in touch with your engine bay.


----------



## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

the tensioner problem is a symptom of not prying the guides to there fullest position..


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

zanegrey said:


> the tensioner problem is a symptom of not prying the guides to there fullest position..


.....due to dirty oil... or a oblong tensioner piston. only thing that makes those tensioners work is oil pressure and a slight spring compression.


----------



## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

when the t-chain guides are not pushed in to the max the tensioner works harder and wears incorrectly..


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

you mean the piston being able to travel fully inwards? or fully outwards? but yeah... if the piston has some sort of oblongness to it that makes it stick or the oil pressure isn't enough due to an engine seal or a clogged port, that will do it too.


----------



## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

no...

the t-chain guides are meant to be pryed to there fullest position to keep the chain in its proper guide path.
when they are not the chain flops helter skelter and wears the tensioner out sooner..


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

no kidding... that's why they use the word Tensioner.

we were talking about what causes it to not tense the chain correctly.

hence.. oil passage blockage, effed up tensioner piston, or bad engine seal not supplying enough oil pressure to engine.. but if that happens the Tensioner's gonna be the last of your probs.


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

well... maybe 2nd or 3rd


----------



## zanegrey (Dec 5, 2005)

no kidding .. your right ..you have always been right .. you are probably right now..

cough cough.....


----------



## OchnofConcrete (Jan 7, 2008)

ey man... get anyone you want, and i'll tell you straight up what's goin on w/ their 240. i've achingly put together 2 from scrap.

make yourself feel good, i don give a sh!t. 2 of em. full on. every bit of everything worked on and taken care of. why else would i rip that shit up on the road. i can fu(in fix it. 

don't get me wrong, it's not 100,000 dollars worth of stealership equipment i'm using. i'm just makin em run good offa 100 worth of pawn tools. and cleaner.

god, i can't wait til i get to full on rebuild the next KADE


----------

