# Ethanol and our japanese cars



## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

Ok, heres the deal. I live in nebraska, our midgrade gas at 9 out of 10 gas stations is 89 octane with 10% ethanol. My car runs like crap off of the 87 and I don't want to pay the extra .20/gallon for the 93 octane. 
But I was thinking the other day when I was filling up...they don't add corn to thier gas in Japan. I have always used the ethanol gas since I bought my car almost 3 years ago. Am I doing alot of harm to my car because of this. Yet I know that ethanol burns cleaner.
Help me out here.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Binger said:


> Ok, heres the deal. I live in nebraska, our midgrade gas at 9 out of 10 gas stations is 89 octane with 10% ethanol. My car runs like crap off of the 87 and I don't want to pay the extra .20/gallon for the 93 octane.
> But I was thinking the other day when I was filling up...they don't add corn to thier gas in Japan. I have always used the ethanol gas since I bought my car almost 3 years ago. Am I doing alot of harm to my car because of this. Yet I know that ethanol burns cleaner.
> Help me out here.


Ethanol is also used on the West coast as octane boost by all gas makers. This replaced MTBE a couple years ago. I don't believe the % is as high as what you state. As far as long term, no studies have really been done on it. 
As far as currently known it's fine.


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

myoung said:


> Ethanol is also used on the West coast as octane boost by all gas makers. This replaced MTBE a couple years ago. I don't believe the % is as high as what you state. As far as long term, no studies have really been done on it.
> As far as currently known it's fine.


Where I live ethanol is added to gas from september to april or something like that to reduce emissions. Somebody here did a study and found out that the ethanol doesn't add to the efficiency. It gives you poorer performance and reduces gas mileage so people wind up burning enough gas to polute the same in the end. They just passed legislation to quit using ethanol in gas starting winter of 2005 because it is more expensive and is not recommended by manufacturers in our cars. (It's in our user's manual.)


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

myoung said:


> Ethanol is also used on the West coast as octane boost by all gas makers. This replaced MTBE a couple years ago. I don't believe the % is as high as what you state. As far as long term, no studies have really been done on it.
> As far as currently known it's fine.


Aren't they still using MTBE part of the year out here in California? I thought the federal legislation mandating ethanol was passed but California was fighting it? I'm not sure though.

Yeah the whole ethanol thing is more of a power play by agri-business than about the enviroment. Then again, when is legislation ever *just* about the enviroment?


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## Radioaktiv (Feb 12, 2004)

IMO the eth gases are crap
like was said earlier, you get worse gas mileage and worse performance so you just end up using more gasoline anyways
i can get around 340-350 a tank with good Shell/Chevron Supreme
but with the eth mixes, like what is sold at RaceTrack/QT/etc., Id get less than 300 to a tank
It doesnt make any sense to buy this cheap gas. You end up spending more on filling up more often.
Its worthless IMO


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

bII said:


> Aren't they still using MTBE part of the year out here in California? I thought the federal legislation mandating ethanol was passed but California was fighting it? I'm not sure though.
> 
> Yeah the whole ethanol thing is more of a power play by agri-business than about the enviroment. Then again, when is legislation ever *just* about the enviroment?


Nope MTBE has been banned in CA.. Ethanol is now used by every major producer on the west coast.

The lowest octane rating allowed in CA is 87 octane. It's produced at 86 octane at the Refineries. Then a small % is added at terminals to increase the octane up to 87. Mid-grades like 89 are a mix of premium and a small % of enthanol. Even the the premium is produced at 91 octane then upped with eth.. to 92 rating.

It is cheaper than more enviormentally friendly than MTBE..


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

Doesn't MTBE pollute ground waters though? I thought that was the excuse.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

bII said:


> Doesn't MTBE pollute ground waters though? I thought that was the excuse.


yup...it's no excuse.. It's really bad stuff.


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

But niether were found to decrease greenhouse gases, at least that's what several studies have found (the one's I've read) and that was why California was opposing the ethanol mandate. From what I understand, since Cali has taken effective steps in decreasing pollution and gas strict air pollution standards, adding oxigenantes (sp?) like MTBE/Ethanol to our gasoline is not needed. Of course the corn belt states oppose the exemption for one of the country's largest purchaser of gasoline, which de facto would become one of the country's largest purchuser of ethanol.

That's as far as I understand it, I could be wrong.


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

bII said:


> But niether were found to decrease greenhouse gases, at least that's what several studies have found (the one's I've read) and that was why California was opposing the ethanol mandate. From what I understand, since Cali has taken effective steps in decreasing pollution and gas strict air pollution standards, adding oxigenantes (sp?) like MTBE/Ethanol to our gasoline is not needed. Of course the corn belt states oppose the exemption for one of the country's largest purchaser of gasoline, which de facto would become one of the country's largest purchuser of ethanol.
> 
> That's as far as I understand it, I could be wrong.


That's the story I heard. Here in Utah County, they are trying to get rid of the ethanol thing by next winter. The EPA or somebody who is over that in the federal government has said that there will be consequences if we remove it without their approval, but I guess the county doesn't care, or they are trying to prove to them that it doesn't do any good. Either way, it seems like the corn farmers are in a good spot.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

bII said:


> But niether were found to decrease greenhouse gases, at least that's what several studies have found (the one's I've read) and that was why California was opposing the ethanol mandate. From what I understand, since Cali has taken effective steps in decreasing pollution and gas strict air pollution standards, adding oxigenantes (sp?) like MTBE/Ethanol to our gasoline is not needed. Of course the corn belt states oppose the exemption for one of the country's largest purchaser of gasoline, which de facto would become one of the country's largest purchuser of ethanol.
> 
> That's as far as I understand it, I could be wrong.


That all may be true...but I can you that every time you go fill up in CA and other western states it has a small % of ethanol.


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm actualy suprised that no one is trying to make a car that runs off of 100% ethanol.


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## andre (Apr 30, 2002)

Binger said:


> I'm actualy suprised that no one is trying to make a car that runs off of 100% ethanol.


Really? :banana: 
No....I'm not doing it...but one day last week it occured to me that someone in our community should make a GA run as lean as possible...or at least close to the Prius. I mean, if we can propel sr20s to 400 hp and GA16 to 250...why dont we use a turbocharger to provide top-end power but be really efficient under 4000 rpm...i.e. massive turbo lag. :thumbup: If I had the $$ and the know-how.....


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

Binger said:


> I'm actualy suprised that no one is trying to make a car that runs off of 100% ethanol.


Ethanol is too corrosive, engines and fuel system components would not last as long.

I think there have been developments in biomass-diesel in NorCali, unfortunatley Americans are not too fond of diesels, I would buy a diesel (as a daily driver) if I could find one. A friend of mine had a diesel caddy (VW truck based on rabbit) and boy did that thing sip fuel! Slow as a dog though, but with modern turbo setups and fuel delivery, there's nothing wrong with today's diesel passenger vehicles. And you can tune diesels for massive power if you want (just ask Gale Banks).


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## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

ethenol in gas killed my truck...well the fuel pump at least, wich is a rubber bladder type...the alcohol ate away at it until it bursteded. ethenol is bad news for old cars. 

but here in the midwest its impossible to find places that dont use "10%" ethonol


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

The way I understand it, pure alky is so corrosive that even the drag racers chase their alky cars with gas after a race day. Hope this isn't too OT for this thread, but how bout toluene? Worse for the environment than ethanol or MTBE? Just curious, heard it works well for octane boost.


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## Tavel (Aug 21, 2004)

or we could all just take a spin to the local airfield and get some 130 octane aircraft fuel haha.

i know someone who has a mustange that runs on aircraft fuel, its a very loud and very fast car. but definatly not legal


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## Binger (Aug 29, 2002)

My friends uncle from georiga had the same thing. Gas was expensive at 8 MPG, but being a neuroligist he could afford it.


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

Tavel said:


> or we could all just take a spin to the local airfield and get some 130 octane aircraft fuel haha.
> 
> i know someone who has a mustange that runs on aircraft fuel, its a very loud and very fast car. but definatly not legal


More octane doesn't make you faster or your engine more powerful, per se. Its the need of more octane that makes you faster. I doubt a mustang has a motor with enough compression/boost to merit 130 octane gas. 600HP WRXs don't need 130 octane. Probably running 101-102 or something like that.


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## captain_shrapnel (Sep 10, 2004)

Yeah, actually the older turbo'd F1 cars ran something ridiculous like 75psi boost. They used like a 1.6L block to get stupid power (something like 1500hp). They ran pure toluene. 75 psi, i'd like to see a wrx run that!


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

captain_shrapnel said:


> Yeah, actually the older turbo'd F1 cars ran something ridiculous like 75psi boost. They used like a 1.6L block to get stupid power (something like 1500hp). They ran pure toluene. 75 psi, i'd like to see a wrx run that!


My friend knew a lady in Idaho with a corvette that ran on jet fuel. He said it was a crazy car. He got to ride in it.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

Tavel said:


> or we could all just take a spin to the local airfield and get some 130 octane aircraft fuel haha.
> 
> i know someone who has a mustange that runs on aircraft fuel, its a very loud and very fast car. but definatly not legal


that's ridiculous.. doesn't surpirse me he drives a mustang.


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

stevja1 said:


> My friend knew a lady in Idaho with a corvette that ran on jet fuel. He said it was a crazy car. He got to ride in it.




:bs: Sorry have to wave the BS flag on that one... The flash point on Jet fuel is above 120 degrees.. The car would run like crap at first... then not at all. 

Jet fuel is closer to diesel in the refining process.

The only way it would run on jet fuel would be if it had a Turbine Jet engine installed. Highly doubt that.. 

You need to question your friend more or get new friends..haha


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## myoung (Apr 15, 2002)

captain_shrapnel said:


> but how bout toluene? Worse for the environment than ethanol or MTBE? Just curious, heard it works well for octane boost.


cost too much to refine toluene.. People complain at $2 a gallon... use toluene as an octane boost the price would go wayyyyy up.

It works very well... just really expensive.


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## stevja1 (Jan 25, 2004)

myoung said:


> :bs: Sorry have to wave the BS flag on that one... The flash point on Jet fuel is above 120 degrees.. The car would run like crap at first... then not at all.
> 
> Jet fuel is closer to diesel in the refining process.
> 
> ...


Okay, I just spoke with my other friend who is a pilot, and I guess in some planes, they use really high octane gasoline. (I guess it's not really considered jet fuel, but when you get it from the airport, it is kind of fun to tell your friends that.) So I guess the lady in Idaho with the vette just ran ultra high octane gas that she bought from the airport, and not exactly jet fuel.


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## BII (May 13, 2004)

Waste, even Lingenfelter never ran jet fuel, and I doubt some lady in Idaho is running a Vette with more of a need for octane than he ever did.


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